1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` -----------
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ------------
`
` HTC CORPORATION, HTC AMERICA, INC.
` and APPLE INC.,
` Petitioners
`
` v.
`
` INVT SPE LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`
` -------------
`
` Case Nos. IPR2018-0155 and IPR2018-01581
` U.S. Patent No. 7,848,439
`
`-------------------------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF
`
` ZHI DING, PH.D.
`
` Tuesday, December 3, 2019
`
`REPORTED BY: Brandi N. Bigalke, RPR, RSA
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 1 (1)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 1
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` The following is the deposition of ZHI
`
`DING, PH.D., taken before Brandi N. Bigalke, RPR,
`
`RSA pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, at
`
`Best Western Plus Palm Court Hotel, 234 D Street,
`
`Davis, California.
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF HTC CORPORATION, HTC AMERICA, INC.,
`and APPLE INC.:
`
` Darren Franklin
` SHEPPARD MULLIN RICHTER & HAMPTON LLP
` 333 South Hope Street
` 43rd Floor
` Los Angeles, California90071
` dfranklin@sheppardmullin.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF INVT SPE LLC:
`
` Cyrus A. Morton
` ROBINS KAPLAN, LLP
` 800 LaSalle Avenue
` Suite 2800
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` cmorton@robinskaplan.com
`
` AND
`
` Li Zhu
` ROBINS KAPLAN, LLP
` 2440 West El Camino Real
` Suite 100
` Mountain View, California 94040
` lzhu@robinskaplan.com
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 2 (2)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 2
`
`

`

` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` I N D E X
`
`EXAMINATION PAGE
`
`Mr. Morton......................................4
`
` EXHIBIT INDEX
`
`PREVIOUSLY-MARKED EXHIBITS REFERRED PAGE
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1001................................4
`
`U.S. Patent 7,848,439
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1003...............................45
`
`U.S. Patent 6,904,283
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1004..............................107
`
`U.S. Patent 7,221,680
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1005..............................141
`
`U.S. Patent 6,721,569
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1006...............................24
`
`U.S. Patent 5,596,604
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1007..............................109
`
`Declaration of Zhi Ding, Ph.D. in Support of
`
`Petition for Inter Partes Review
`
`HTC EXHIBIT 1016...............................24
`
`Declaration of Zhi Ding, Ph.D. in Support of
`
`Petitioners' Consolidated Reply to Patent Owner's
`
`Consolidated Response
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 3 (3)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 3
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
` 2 Whereupon, the deposition of ZHI DING, PH.D.
` 3 was commenced at 8:34 a.m. as follows:
` 4 - - -
` 5 ZHI DING, PH.D.
` 6 Called as a witness and having been first duly
` 7 sworn, testifies as follows:
` 8 EXAMINATION
` 9 BY MR. MORTON:
`10 Q. Good morning, Dr. Ding. I assume
`11 you've had your deposition taken before?
`12 A. Yes. Good morning. Yes, I have
`13 had depositions taken before.
`14 Q. Okay. And you've had time to
`15 prepare for this deposition with counsel?
`16 A. Some time, yes.
`17 Q. And is there any reason you can
`18 think of why you cannot hear my questions, and
`19 give full, true and honest answers here today?
`20 A. No.
`21 Q. Okay. Let's dive right in and talk
`22 about the '439 patents. I have it there in front
`23 of you. It's Exhibit 1001 to this IPR
`24 proceeding.
`25 Do you see that?
` 1 A. Yes.
` 2 Q. Okay. With reference to Column 2
` 3 of that patent, if you want to have that open for
` 4 your reference.
` 5 So Column 2 is some of the -- under
` 6 the section called The Background of the Art in
` 7 the '439 patent.
` 8 Do you see that?
` 9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. Okay. And it talks about adaptive
`11 modulation and coding based on subcarriers.
`12 A. Which line are we referring to?
`13 Q. If you look at Column 2, lines 4
`14 through 8, it's introducing that concept.
`15 A. Okay. I see Column 2, right.
`16 Q. And Column 2 talks about -- you
`17 understand what adaptive modulation and coding
`18 is, right?
`19 A. I understand that as a general
`20 concept, yes.
`21 Q. Okay. So just for the record then,
`22 what is adaptive modulation and coding?
`23 A. It's a mechanism where depending on
`24 the conditions necessary, the modulation and
`25 coding that is used to transmit data can be
`
`Page 5
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 4
`
`Page 6
`
` 1 adjusted in accordance to the conditions.
` 2 Q. Right.
` 3 And what happens in general is you
` 4 have a pilot signal or something like that, user
` 5 equipment or wireless device, handheld device
` 6 can measure, right?
` 7 MR. FRANKLIN: Objection; vague.
` 8 THE WITNESS: Could you break down
` 9 the question a bit better?
`10 BY MR. MORTON:
`11 Q. Well, you're the expert. This is
`12 adaptive modulation and coding. I thought this
`13 was basic stuff.
`14 So you describe to me how adaptive
`15 modulation and coding works.
`16 A. To make the adjustment of
`17 modulation and coding, the transmitter needs to
`18 be aware of the necessity to make adjustment on
`19 the modulation and coding. And what conditions
`20 necessitates that needs to be available to the
`21 transmitter.
`22 Q. Okay. And how do the conditions as
`23 you call them, how are those made available to
`24 the transmitter?
`25 A. There is several ways that can --
` 1 that can be made aware to the transmitter.
` 2 Q. Okay. What are the ways?
` 3 A. For example, the transmitter may
` 4 simply be looking at the channel that the
` 5 transmitter is also receiving data on from the
` 6 mobile station, and based on the principal of
` 7 reciprocity, the transmitter can estimate the
` 8 conditions of the forward link channel, and in
` 9 accordance to that condition of the channel make
`10 adjustments to the adaptive -- to the modulation
`11 and coding scheme that the transmitter is about
`12 to use.
`13 Q. Okay.
`14 A. That's one.
`15 Q. What's another way?
`16 A. Sorry?
`17 Q. What's another way?
`18 A. Another possibility is that the
`19 transmitter simply does not have sufficient power
`20 to transmit at -- you're running out of power or
`21 battery, so you have to dial down the modulation
`22 complexity simply because higher modulation
`23 requires more power.
`24 Q. Okay.
`25 A. Yeah.
`
`Page 7
`Page 4 (4 - 7)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 4
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 Q. And another way?
` 2 A. Other ways includes that the
` 3 transmitter may perceive that there's a strong
` 4 likelihood of having interference in -- for the
` 5 channel that the transmission will take place.
` 6 So again, in accordance you are likely to add
` 7 additional redundancy to protect your --
` 8 redundancy in the error -- forward error
` 9 correction code to protect the data you're
`10 transmitting.
`11 Q. Okay. Is that all the ways?
`12 A. No.
`13 Q. What's another one?
`14 A. What's another one. Well,
`15 conditions generally includes the transmitter
`16 itself whether it have enough powers to do
`17 something, or the way to perceive the channel
`18 condition change, whether the forwarding channel
`19 has changed.
`20 So I've given you a list of ways
`21 that the transmitter can perceive that change.
`22 Q. Is there a reason that you're
`23 avoiding the situation of the user equipment
`24 making a measurement on the downlink on a pilot
`25 signal and then reporting something back up to
` 1 the transmitter?
` 2 MR. FRANKLIN: Objection;
` 3 argumentative.
` 4 THE WITNESS: No.
` 5 BY MR. MORTON:
` 6 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about that
` 7 since that's what's in Column 2 that I pointed
` 8 to.
` 9 Do you see where it says, "AMC in
`10 OFDM is divided into two, AMC based on
`11 subcarriers and AMC based on subbands."
`12 Do you see that?
`13 A. Okay. Yes.
`14 Q. Okay. So any of the things you
`15 describe, was any of that AMC based on
`16 subcarriers?
`17 A. Yeah. It can be done based on
`18 subcarriers.
`19 Q. Okay. What's AMC based on
`20 subcarriers?
`21 A. That's the granularity with which
`22 you are making adjustments of modulation.
`23 Therefore, the adjustment of different modulation
`24 is done on a per sip -- subcarrier basis.
`25 (Clarification by the court
`
`Page 9
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 8
`
`Page 10
`
` 1 reporter.)
` 2 THE WITNESS: On a per subcarrier
` 3 basis. And same answer for AMC based on subband
` 4 basis. Per subband basis.
` 5 BY MR. MORTON:
` 6 Q. So the '439 patent acknowledges
` 7 that AMC based on subcarriers was known and that
` 8 AMC based on subbands was known prior to the
` 9 invention, right?
`10 A. Yes.
`11 Q. Okay. And when we're talking
`12 about -- what's the difference between a
`13 subcarrier and a subband?
`14 A. Okay. So in this context, in the
`15 context of '439, subbands contains one or more
`16 subcarriers.
`17 Q. Okay. And those are -- the
`18 subcarriers would be neighboring on the frequency
`19 domain, is that right, to make up a subband?
`20 A. Generally, no, but you certainly
`21 can make it contiguous. You can have contiguous
`22 subcarriers forming a subband, but it's also not
`23 necessary in general.
`24 Q. Okay. You actually put in your
`25 declaration and defined subbands as neighboring
` 1 subcarriers on a frequency domain, right?
` 2 A. I may have.
` 3 Which side?
` 4 Q. What's that?
` 5 A. Where is that in the declaration?
` 6 Q. It would be in the claim
` 7 construction portion of your opening declaration
` 8 says that, and it may repeat it in your secondary
` 9 declaration.
`10 A. I'm sorry, what was the question?
`11 Q. I'm just asking you to confirm that
`12 you actually defined subbands -- you said
`13 subbands don't have to have subcarriers
`14 neighboring on the frequency access?
`15 A. Right.
`16 Q. I'm asking you isn't it true that
`17 you actually defined subbands as having
`18 subcarriers neighboring on the frequency?
`19 A. I'm just asking you to refresh my
`20 memory. I don't remember where I wrote that, and
`21 I certainly would own up to it if it is written
`22 that -- if I said that subbands necessarily have
`23 to have subcarriers in a contiguous relationship.
`24 Q. It would be in your opening
`25 declaration which you have there.
`
`Page 11
`Page 5 (8 - 11)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 5
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 A. Okay.
` 2 Q. It's the bottom thing in front of
` 3 you, Exhibit 1007.
` 4 A. Yes.
` 5 Q. Paragraph 66 on page 29.
` 6 A. Okay.
` 7 Q. 66A it says, "Under the broadest
` 8 reasonable construction, subband for Claims 1
` 9 through 6 and 8 means a group of subcarriers in
`10 neighboring positions on the frequency domain."
`11 Do you see that?
`12 A. Yes.
`13 Q. All right. And you're not changing
`14 your testimony here today as to what a subband
`15 is, are you?
`16 A. No, I'm not changing my testimony.
`17 You asked me a general question and I gave you a
`18 general answer.
`19 Now, when we come to the specific
`20 declaration, this is referring to the
`21 interpretation of subband with respect to '439,
`22 and '439 defines subband as subcarriers in
`23 neighboring positions.
`24 Q. Okay. Well, we're talking about
`25 the '439 patent.
` 1 A. Okay.
` 2 Q. I was asking you
` 3 about Exhibit 1001.
` 4 A. I see. Thank you.
` 5 Q. Subbands within that.
` 6 A. That's my misunderstanding.
` 7 Perhaps I should have asked whether are we
` 8 talking about this in general, or are we talking
` 9 about '439. I want to be accurate.
`10 Q. Okay. So let's talk a little bit
`11 about each of these things, AMC based on
`12 subcarriers and AMC based on subbands.
`13 A. Okay.
`14 Q. In the '439 patent, again Column 2,
`15 lines 8 through 11 it says that "AMC based on
`16 subcarriers is very difficult to be implemented."
`17 Do you see that?
`18 A. It is difficult to implement...
`19 There's one sentence that says it
`20 is difficult typically.
`21 Q. And you agree with that?
`22 A. No.
`23 Q. You think it's easy to do AMC based
`24 on subcarriers?
`25 A. I certainly don't think it's
`
`Page 12
`
` 1 difficult.
` 2 Q. Okay. And what about where it says
` 3 that the reason it's difficult is because the
` 4 feedback overhead is too large for doing AMC
` 5 based on subcarriers, do you see that on lines 10
` 6 through 11?
` 7 A. Yeah. I see it gave the reasons,
` 8 yes.
` 9 Q. Okay. But you don't agree with
`10 that?
`11 A. I don't agree with that in general.
`12 It depends on how many subcarriers are there, and
`13 it also depends on how much over -- how much
`14 feedback there is. But there can be scenarios
`15 definitely that feedback overhead can be too
`16 large. So in specific cases, yes.
`17 Q. Okay. So you agree with that in
`18 some cases but not others.
`19 What about a scenario where there's
`20 512 subcarriers?
`21 A. In the wire lines and -- in the
`22 wireless system with 512 subcarriers, that number
`23 can be viewed as quite large, yes.
`24 Q. And in that sort of a situation,
`25 it's difficult to do adaptive modulation and
`Page 14
` 1 coding based on subcarriers because the feedback
` 2 overhead is too large, right?
` 3 A. I want -- I'm not trying to parse
` 4 words, but I want to be clear that when we say
` 5 difficult, technically it is not difficult to do.
` 6 It may be costly in terms of resources required
` 7 to send the feedback.
` 8 So I'm only having issues with the
` 9 word "difficult." It's not like it's difficult
`10 to implement, but it simply requires more
`11 overhead resources, for example, to as -- as the
`12 patent here says the feedback overhead is too
`13 large.
`14 Q. And that's because for every
`15 subcarrier, the wireless device or the user
`16 equipment has to report something back to the
`17 base station for that subcarrier, right?
`18 A. If it's reported per subcarrier
`19 basis, yes.
`20 Q. That's why the feedback overhead is
`21 too large because you need some data for say the
`22 signal-to-noise ratio for every subcarrier?
`23 A. Correct. And also in addition, it
`24 is not a single mobile terminal that needs to
`25 send such feedback, it is a collection of
`
`Page 15
`Page 6 (12 - 15)
`
`Page 13
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 6
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 terminals that needs to evaluate their channel
` 2 conditions.
` 3 Q. Okay. Then the patent also talks
` 4 about doing adaptive modulation and coding based
` 5 on subbands, right?
` 6 A. I believe so, yes.
` 7 Q. And that is a way to reduce the
` 8 amount of feedback overhead required?
` 9 A. It can -- it can reduce the amount
`10 of overhead on feedback path.
`11 Q. And how does it do that?
`12 A. That's since because if you are
`13 reporting on the condition of each subcarrier,
`14 the number of subcarrier is larger than the
`15 number of subband. So for that reason, fewer
`16 reports will be required for the subbands simply
`17 because there are fewer subbands now.
`18 Q. Okay. So you have -- when you go
`19 to using AMC based on subbands, you've reduced
`20 feedback overhead, but you've also lost some
`21 accuracy, some precision that you had with AMC
`22 based on subcarriers, right?
`23 A. I wouldn't say you lost some
`24 accuracy, but you have a tradeoff where you are
`25 performing AMC on the entire subband, and
` 1 therefore the granularity of adjustments in fact
` 2 is not as finely -- it cannot be finely tuned as
` 3 a AMC on the per subcarrier basis.
` 4 Q. So is that the basic tradeoff when
` 5 you go from AMC on subcarriers to subbands is how
` 6 well you can fine tune the adjustments versus
` 7 feedback overhead?
` 8 A. That will be one -- that will be
` 9 one tradeoff that I can think of, yes.
`10 Q. Is there anything else that you're
`11 balancing or trading off if you go from AMC based
`12 on subcarriers to AMC based on subbands?
`13 A. There is potentially also a
`14 complexity matter that if we are making
`15 adjustment on per subcarrier basis and there are
`16 way too many subcarriers, let's say 2,048
`17 subcarriers, and making that adjustment requires
`18 sometimes substantial processing power at the
`19 transmitter, and also for -- to demodulate and
`20 decode you also require a number of different
`21 demodulators and decoders at the receiver end, so
`22 there also can be complexity matters that comes
`23 into play.
`24 Q. So can you explain that a little
`25 better in terms of the two -- which is more
`
`Page 17
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 16
`
`Page 18
`
` 1 complex, AMC based on subcarriers, or subbands?
` 2 A. Oh, the computation complexity is
` 3 more complex for the subcarrier based AMC.
` 4 Q. Okay. So then the '439 patent as
` 5 far as the inventions in the patent proposes
` 6 something different; proposes doing adaptive
` 7 modulation and coding based on subband groups,
` 8 right?
` 9 A. It does propose the adjustment to
`10 be made on subband groups, yes.
`11 Q. Okay.
`12 A. It's not different, but it's on
`13 groups.
`14 Q. Yep. And that's what the inventors
`15 told the patent office was the improvement,
`16 right?
`17 A. I'm sorry, what is the improvement?
`18 Q. Doing adaptive modulation and
`19 coding based on subband groups based on a channel
`20 estimation per subband.
`21 A. I'm not aware of what they told the
`22 patent office, but from reading the patent, I
`23 understand that the invention is to make
`24 adjustment based on subband groups.
`25 Q. Sure. And that's -- when I say "by
` 1 told the patent office," I'm just referring to
` 2 the patent.
` 3 A. Got it.
` 4 Q. That's what they said was going to
` 5 be their invention when they filed the patent.
` 6 A. Okay. Understood.
` 7 Q. So you have a further tradeoff,
` 8 right, if you go to subband groups you must be
` 9 again sacrificing the granularity of adjustments
`10 that you can make in AMC, right?
`11 A. You are -- yeah, you are forsaking
`12 some ability to make fine adjustments each
`13 subcarriers, or the each subband if you are
`14 collectively making adjustment on the entire
`15 subband group, which presumably is going to now
`16 contain even more subcarriers.
`17 Q. Right. Okay.
`18 So let's talk a little bit about
`19 the invention. I'll talk to you about the actual
`20 claim language, Claim 1.
`21 A. Okay.
`22 Q. And you've done some claim
`23 construction, so I just want to talk about that a
`24 little bit.
`25 So you have your declaration in
`
`Page 19
`Page 7 (16 - 19)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 7
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 front of you if you want to look at it, but you
` 2 originally construed patterns for selecting
` 3 subbands.
` 4 Do you recall that?
` 5 A. Patterns -- can we go to that page?
` 6 Q. Sure. And you have both of your
` 7 declarations.
` 8 A. Yes.
` 9 Q. They both have a claim construction
`10 section. You address patterns for selecting
`11 subbands in both. So if you want to look at your
`12 supplemental declaration to remind yourself about
`13 this.
`14 A. Okay.
`15 Q. That is -- hold on. I'll find it
`16 for you.
`17 A. Thank you. Is it on page 35?
`18 Q. Yes. And you'll see starting in
`19 Paragraph 76 you are talking about your
`20 construction of patterns for selecting subbands.
`21 A. Okay.
`22 Q. I don't know if you repeated your
`23 definition here. Your definition was
`24 configurations or arrangements of subbands on the
`25 frequency and/or time domains.
` 1 A. It does not appear to be repeated
` 2 here. So page 30 of...
` 3 Q. Your opening declaration.
` 4 A. Page 30, my open declaration, is
` 5 that where you're referring to?
` 6 Q. Yeah. If you want to take a look
` 7 at it. I'm just trying to get it back in your
` 8 head --
` 9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. -- that you defined patterns for
`11 selecting subbands --
`12 A. Yes.
`13 Q. -- as configurations or
`14 arrangements of subbands on the frequency and/or
`15 time domains?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. Do you recall that?
`18 A. Yes.
`19 Q. Okay. So I just want to ask you
`20 some things about that.
`21 A. Okay.
`22 Q. So first of all, I want to ask you
`23 about the word "pattern."
`24 What does that word "pattern" mean
`25 to you?
`
`Page 21
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 20
`
`Page 22
`
` 1 A. Pattern, it would mean a specific
` 2 set of information that the transmitter or the
` 3 receiver can follow based on some preset
` 4 algorithm or preset rules. That would be a
` 5 pattern.
` 6 Q. So the word pattern typically
` 7 refers to something that is a pattern. In other
` 8 words, it repeats, there's a pattern to it.
` 9 Do you agree?
`10 A. I'm trying to think. There are
`11 cases that it doesn't repeat, but it is known.
`12 So you could, for example, have a -- in third
`13 generation cell phone what happens, you have the
`14 spreading code that -- scrambling code that does
`15 not repeat after 3,000 years, but that is still a
`16 known pattern because once you have selected the
`17 initial seat {ph}, then you simply follow an
`18 algorithm and it will tell you how a specific
`19 value of each chip, C-H-I-P, whether it should be
`20 a "1" or "0". And you can know that for the next
`21 3,000 years even though it is running as megabits
`22 per second or megachips per second.
`23 So I think a pattern like that
`24 doesn't have -- well, it repeat I guess after
`25 3,000 years. So I would agree it does repeat
` 1 after 3,000 years, but it's not within our
` 2 lifetime.
` 3 Q. If you talk more about the '439
` 4 patent, the '439 patent shows patterns that
` 5 repeat, right?
` 6 A. '439 patent. I don't recall the
` 7 '439 patent use the word "repeat," but it does
` 8 use the word "pattern".
` 9 Q. Well, it has examples and you've
`10 seen them --
`11 A. Okay. Yes.
`12 Q. -- where you have subbands
`13 neighboring on the -- it shows you an example of
`14 I think four in a row neighboring on the
`15 frequency access, it also shows --
`16 A. Yeah.
`17 Q. -- having the fourth.
`18 A. Yeah.
`19 Q. All right. So you know the
`20 examples in the '439 patent show patterns for
`21 selecting subbands that repeat?
`22 A. Yeah, I know that. I know those
`23 examples that shows repeated example -- patterns.
`24 Q. Okay. Have you run across the word
`25 "pattern"? Is that a term of art?
`
`Page 23
`Page 8 (20 - 23)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 8
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 A. No.
` 2 Q. That's just something you've seen
` 3 in the '439 patent?
` 4 A. I don't think that's the only time
` 5 I see it. But pattern has certain, you know,
` 6 ordinary meaning to it.
` 7 Q. Right.
` 8 But I mean it doesn't have --
` 9 there's not some special meaning in the art of
`10 wireless communication for pattern?
`11 A. Not that I -- not that I'm aware
`12 of.
`13 Q. Okay. So when it says patterns for
`14 selecting subbands, those patterns must exist
`15 before you can select the subbands, right?
`16 A. I would agree with that.
`17 Q. Okay. You note in your
`18 supplemental declaration, Exhibit 1016, Paragraph
`19 77, you point out what the board said was the
`20 dispute here, right?
`21 A. That's what I was informed, yes.
`22 Q. Okay. Well, you've quoted from the
`23 board's decision?
`24 A. Yes.
`25 Q. You read the board's decision,
` 1 right?
` 2 A. Only the part.
` 3 Q. Only these two sentences?
` 4 A. No, no. But only the -- only parts
` 5 I found to be helpful to me.
` 6 Q. Okay. So there what you quote
` 7 says, "The dispute is whether the requisite
` 8 patterns must be used to assign subbands to a
` 9 subband group, that is create the subband group,
`10 or the requisite patterns encompass identifying
`11 which subbands are in a particular subband group
`12 that has been defined previously."
`13 Do you see that?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. So I think we just discussed
`16 subbands for selecting -- sorry. Let me start
`17 over.
`18 Patterns for selecting subbands
`19 refers to the first part of that that you have
`20 labeled number 1, the requisite patterns must be
`21 used to assign subbands to a subband group, that
`22 is create the subband group, right?
`23 A. Can I have the question read back
`24 to me, please.
`25 (The requested portion was read
`
`Page 25
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 24
`
`Page 26
`
` 1 back by the court reporter.)
` 2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
` 3 BY MR. MORTON:
` 4 Q. Okay. And the requisite patterns
` 5 do not encompass identifying which subbands are
` 6 in a particular subband group that has been
` 7 defined previously, right?
` 8 A. I would disagree. I believe 1 and
` 9 2 are being viewed from a different perspective,
`10 from different side of this communication link,
`11 for example.
`12 The top, the first one is to
`13 discuss assigning subbands to a subband group.
`14 So the pattern is there. And but to the -- to
`15 the receiver, for example, in order to identify
`16 whether a subband that I'm currently receiving or
`17 analyze belongs to a particular group, which
`18 group it belongs to, I need to have a program and
`19 check to see that the index or the label of that
`20 subband is going to fit the requirement, the
`21 requirement the subband group is -- according to
`22 the pattern is defined locally.
`23 Q. So I'm not sure I followed that.
`24 The claim language that you defined
`25 was patterns for selecting subbands.
` 1 A. Okay.
` 2 Q. That's talking about using a
` 3 pattern to select the subband, not figuring out
` 4 later what subbands are in a group, right?
` 5 A. Honestly, I had trouble with this
` 6 particular dispute.
` 7 My personal understanding is that a
` 8 pattern for selecting subbands, it can have
` 9 different meanings to different side of the
`10 communication link. So they can be a process
`11 where when you say selecting, you actually mean
`12 defining. Okay.
`13 Now, at the receivers when I am
`14 looking at all the subbands and I would have to
`15 check their indices to select which one belongs
`16 to which group in a -- in fact, in a operation
`17 where I'm doing things on the fly. I am not
`18 certain, unless I check the pattern I have stored
`19 previously, that this particular subband belongs
`20 to which group.
`21 So the selecting is what's -- is I
`22 think it's vague and not totally clear to me.
`23 Q. Okay.
`24 A. But if we change the word from
`25 selecting to defining, I have no issue with what
`
`Page 27
`Page 9 (24 - 27)
`
`IPR2018-01555, IPR2018-01581
`HTC v. INVT
`INVT Exhibit 2103 - Page 9
`
`

`

`Zhi Ding, Ph.D. - 12/3/2019
`HTC Corporation, HTC America, Inc. and Apple Inc. vs. INVT SPE LLC
`
` 1 you have characterized.
` 2 Q. So let's see if we can figure out
` 3 what this actually means in the context of
` 4 Claim 1 of the '439 patent.
` 5 Can you look at that for me?
` 6 A. Okay.
` 7 Q. So the last element of Claim 1
` 8 starts at Column 13, line 21 down to line 27.
` 9 Do you see that?
`10 A. Yes.
`11 Q. And in there there's patterns for
`12 selecting subbands, but the actual element says,
`13 "A pattern stored section --
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. -- that stores in advance patterns
`16 for selecting subbands constituting the subband
`17 groups."
`18 Do you see that?
`19 A. Yes.
`20 Q. Okay. And this pattern stored
`21 section is in the communication apparatus, right?
`22 A. Yes.
`23 Q. All right. You said it could be
`24 different from different sides of the
`25 communication link?
` 1 A. Uh-uh.
` 2 Q. I assume you were talking about the
` 3 communication apparatus versus the base station,
` 4 right?
` 5 A. That's right.
` 6 Q. Okay. So here we're talking about
` 7 the communication apparatus.
` 8 A. Okay.
` 9 Q. That has a pattern storage section
`10 that stores in advance patterns for selecting
`11 subbands, right?
`12 A. That's what it says here.
`13 Q. Does that make it more clear to you
`14 that what's being discussed here for patterns are
`15 patterns stored in the communication apparatus,
`16 or the wireless device that are used to define
`17 which subbands should be in a subband group?
`18 A. It should have been clearer, but I
`19 read it here in the context of a communication
`20 apparatus, it isn't accurate.
`21 The pattern for selecting make it
`22 sound like the communication apparatus is making
`23 the selection, and I believe that's not what '439
`24 is allegedly inventing here.
`25 Q. You think it's inventing the base
`
`Page 29
`
`(763) 591-0535 | info@depointernational.com
`Depo International, Inc.
`
`Page 28
`
`Page 30
`
` 1 station selecting which subbands are in a subband
` 2 group?
` 3 A. Yeah, that's my understanding.
` 4 Q. And that's based on what?
` 5 A. Based on what we had discussed
` 6 earlier, the adaptive modulation and coding was
` 7 done at the transmitter.
` 8 Q.