— Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective On
`Robert Stone, Ph.D.
`
`October 10, 2018
`l
`
`Page
`
`285
`
`Page 1
`
`
`UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
`
`WASHINGTON, D.C_
`
`————————————————————————————————— x
`)
`
`) )
`
`In the Matter of
`
`CERTAIN STRONTIUM—RUBIDIUM
`RADIOISOTOPE INFUSION SYSTEMS,
`AND COMPONENTS THEREOF,
`INCLUDING GENERATORS
`
`Inv. N0.
`)
`) 337-TA—1110
`)
`)
`)
`_________________________________ x
`
`CONTINUED
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
`
`OF ROBERT THOMAS STONE, PH.D_
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION
`
`SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`Wednesday, October 10, 2018
`
`Pages:
`
`285 — 508
`
`1 2
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`3
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`
`
`Reported by: Cindy L. Sebo, RMR, CRR, RPR, CSR,
`
`CRR, CLR, RSA, LiveDeposition Authorized Reporter
`
`Job Number:
`
`247457
`
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`(877) 479-2484
`
`Bracco EX. 2005
`
`Jubilan't V. Bracco
`
`IPR2018-01449
`
`Bracco Ex. 2005
`Jubilant v. Bracco
`IPR2018-01449
`
`

`

`
`
`page
`
`Page 2
`256
`
`Page
`
`Page 4
`256
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S [Chutinued]:
`
`FOR THE OFFICE OF UNFAIR IMPORT INVESTIGATIONS:
`
`BRIAN KOO, ESQUIRE
`
`OFFICE OF UNFAIR IMFGRT INVESTIGNPIDNS
`
`U.S.
`
`INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
`
`SUD H Street, Southwest
`
`Suite 101
`
`Washington, D.C. 20:35
`
`202.205.2530
`
`brian.kooeusitc.gov
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`MARTIN SHERRILL, videographer
`ELIZABETH CONNERS.
`law clerk, Office of
`Unfair Import Investigations. U.S.
`International Trade Commission
`
`
`
`Page 5
`hge 2w
`
`1 N D S X
`
`WITNESS
`ROBERT THOMAS SflfiNE. PH.D.
`By Ms. Bookbinder
`By M:. Naiker
`
`EASE N0.
`
`297. 653, 50!
`493
`
`E X H I B I T S
`
`STONE
`DEPOSITION
`EXHIBIT NUMBER
`Number 32
`
`DESCRIPTION
`
`PAGE NO.
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`13
`14
`15
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`16
`I?
`15
`19
`20
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`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`n
`
`In
`
`M 1
`
`3
`
`14
`15
`
`:—
`1— 33-9
`18
`Number 33
`
`|19
`
`2D
`
`'— 359
`.21
`22
`
`Number 34 —
`
`— 366
`
`October 1D. 2013
`9:05 a.m.
`
`Confidential videotaped Deposition
`of ROBERT THOMAS STONE. PH.D. held at
`the law
`offices DE:
`
`Greenberg Traurig, LLP
`2101 L Street Northwest
`Suite IDDD
`
`Washington, D.C. 2003?
`
`Pursuant to notice, before Cindy L.
`
`Sebo, Registered Merit Reporter. Certified Reel-Time
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
`CertiEied shorthand Reporter, Certified Court
`Reporter, Certified LiveNote Reporter, Real-Time
`Systems Adminietratn: and a Notary Public in and for
`the District of Columbia.
`
`Page
`
`Page 3
`287
`
`A P P 5 A R A N C E S:
`FDR THE CDMPLAINANT HRACCO DIAGNOSTICS INC.:
`
`JULIE P. HDDKHINDER, ESQUIRE
`
`OLENA IEREGA. ESQUIRE
`GREENBERG TRAURTG, LL?
`
`Metbife Building
`200 Park Avenue
`New York. New York 10166
`212.301.3129
`
`bookbinderjsgtlaw.com
`ieregaofigtlaw.com
`
`FOR THE RESPONDENTS JUBILANT DRAXIMAGB INC..
`
`JUBILANT PHARMA LIMITED. and JUBILANT LIFE
`SCIENCES:
`
`T. CY WALKER, ESQUIRZ
`BAKER & HOSTETLER LLP
`
`Washington Square, Suite 1100
`1050 Connecticut Avenue, Northwest
`
`Washington, D.C. 20036
`202.661.1633
`cwalker®bakerlaw.cam
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
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`25
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`22
`23
`24
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`

`

`
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`Page
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`Page 6
`2fifl
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`1
`2
`1
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`4
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`Page
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`Page 8
`292
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`E x H 1
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`El 1 T 5 {Continued}
`
`PAGE NO.
`
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`5
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`
`STONE
`DEPOSl'l'lON
`EXHIBIT ”(WEEK
`
`DESCRIPTION
`
`rember er —
`
`
`
`3'35 |ll|m
`
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`
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`
`mum 37
`
`Numbar 38
`
`I
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`
`1-1
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`15
`Patten: Appmaemn Publlcatian —
`16
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`I
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`13
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`Page 9
`253
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`DBPDS:TION
`PAGE N0.
`DESCRIF'I‘lON
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`6
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`
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`
`PAGE NO.
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`-_ Hum: 43 —I—
`
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`29
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`25
`35
`
`

`

`
`
`
`
`Page
`
`Page 10
`294
`
`Page 12
`Page
`296
`l GINFIDWI‘IAL BUSINESS WHON SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`P R 0 C E E D I N G S
`
`Washington, D.C.
`Wednesday, October 10, 2018; 9:05 am.
`
`THE VIDEUGRAPHER: This is the
`
`videotaped deposition of Robert T. Stone
`in the matter of Certain
`
`Strontiwn-Rubidium Radioisotope Infusion
`Systems, et al.,
`in the United States
`International Trade Conmissions [sic]
`
`in
`
`Washington. DC.
`This deposition is being held at
`Greenberg, LLP, on October 10th, 2018, at
`approximately 9:05 am.
`My name is Martin Sherrill, and I
`am from U.S. Legal Support.
`The court
`
`reporter today is Cindy Sebo, also from
`[1.3. Legal Support.
`[Sotto voce discussion with court
`
`reporter and videographer.i
`THE VIDEDGRAPHER:
`okay.
`Counsel will new state their
`
`
`
`2 3 *
`
`1 U
`
`1
`
`Mama-JON
`
`10
`11
`
`l 1213
`14
`
`15
`
`i 1617
`13
`19
`
`l 20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
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`_
`E: x H 1 E I T 5 {Continued}
`
`STONE
`DEPOSITION
`EXHIBIT NUMBER
`
`DESCRIPTION
`
`PAGE NO.
`
`12
`
`3
`
`45
`
`6
`
`2 We :0 —
`
`— m
`10
`
`m
`
`Number 51 _
`
`I I I—
`
`14
`
`15
`
`Number 52 —
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`— m
`20
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`Numb 53 —
`
`I
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`I
`
`— m
`
`Page
`
`Page 11
`295
`
`Page 13
`Page
`29'?
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION SUBJECT TO PROTEINS ORDER
`
`Is x H J. B I
`.
`
`'1‘ S {Continued}
`.
`_
`
`STONE
`DEPOSITION
`EXHIBIT NUMBER
`
`DESCRIPTION
`
`PAGE: NO.
`
`Numer 54 —
`
`I 2 3
`
`.1
`5
`
`6
`
`1
`
`appearance for the record.
`NB. ECOICBILDER:
`Julie Bookbinder
`
`from Greenberg Traurig for the
`
`Conplainant. with we is Olena lerega.
`I-‘IR. PIAlJCER: Cy Walker,
`BakerHostetler, on behalf of the
`
`Respondents.
`MR. K03:
`
`Brian Koo with the Office
`
`of Unfair Import Investigations at the
`LLB. International Trade Connission. And
`
`with Ire today is Elizabeth Couriers, a law
`clerk from our office.
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
`
`You may begin.
`
`ROBERT moms STONE, PH.D.,
`
`after having been previously duly sworn, was
`examined and testified further as follows:
`
`
`
`MMIMTIDN (RESmED) BY MINSEL FOR COMPIMIRNTS
`
`BY MS. BOOKBINDER:
`
`Q.
`
`— “5
`10
`
`Number
`
`:5
`
`terrier Pan; Web page. Bates
`
`stamped J'Dl-I'l‘C-DOOIZZISS
`
`43"}
`
`Number 56 —
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`— m
`11
`‘18
`
`["Exhibits Attached to Original. Transcript.)
`
`
`
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`All right.
`Good morning, Dr. Stone.
`25
`Good morning.
`
`
`

`

`Robert Stone, Ph.D.
`
`— Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Or:
`October 10, 2018
`14 to 17
`
`Page 14
`Page 16
`Page
`293
`Page
`300
`l QIEDMMTUHJEUSHESS noonsnroisuamrrio HKHECEHM CHER
`l GAEIMRMHAL HEIMES HfiflflfifiTON QEDECTTU HKHEEEVE WHER
`
`'
`
`2
`3
`A
`
`5
`6
`
`V
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`8
`9
`10
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`19
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`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`
`the second day of
`It's October 10th.
`Q.
`your deposition in this matter. right?
`A.
`Yes.
`
`Gray. And you reremher that your
`Q.
`affirmation from yesterday still applies?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay. Did you discuss your testimony
`Q.
`with anyone since we broke for the day yesterday?
`A.
`No.
`
`During the course of the day
`Q.
`yesterday. did you discuss the substance of your
`testimony with normal?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Or with anyone else?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Okay. Yesterdayr we discussed your
`inspection of the Version 1 and Version 2 systems
`at Jubilant in Canada, right?
`A.
`Yes.
`if I'm
`Q.
`And you had an understanding.
`correct.
`that the Version 2 had been used at
`least in Canada?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`All right. Was Version 1 used
`
`I
`
`i
`
`2
`3
`4
`
`5
`6
`
`1
`
`8
`9
`10
`
`I 11
`12
`‘ 13
`14
`15
`15
`‘ 1'?
`' 13
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`it was used with human patients?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Do you know whether images were taken
`
`as a result of those uses?
`A.
`I have not reviewed the details of
`
`how it was used.
`
`And you have not reviewed any
`Q.
`documentation or testimony or any evidence
`regarding the use of Version 1?
`
`A.
`I don‘t recall any such evidence.
`Q.
`Okay.
`let‘s go back to Klein -- I
`think you said that Version 1 was smewhat based
`on the Klein Thesis?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`When did the uses of Version 1 occur?
`A.
`I do not loiow the details of when it
`occurred.
`Q.
`about 2005;
`A.
`Q.
`A.
`
`The Klein Thesis was prepared in
`is that right?
`That's try mderstanding, yes.
`So it was sorretime after 2005?
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And then if you recall. yesterday. we
`
`looked at some ewmails indicating that the
`
`Page 15
`Page
`299
`l GIWIMAHIALBMBDEBSINKmMATKm SUEHKT flJPHUfiITDE WHER-
`anywhere?
`‘
`A.
`
`I am told that it —- that Version 1
`
`2
`3
`
`
`
`
`
`Page 1?
`Page
`301
`1 UIflUUEMEAL HEINEE INHEMATKN QHBECTTU HVHECTHE OMAR
`
`2
`3
`
`A
`5
`
`5
`
`1
`B
`9
`10
`
`Version 3 development was going on, at least in
`2010?
`
`A.
`o.
`
`I'll accept that.
`Okay —-
`
`I'd ——
`
`A.
`
`-~ have to go back and look at my
`
`dates and ~-
`—— so the Version 1 and Version 2
`Q.
`work and use of those systems occurred likely
`between 2005 and 2010?
`
`‘
`
`-
`
`A
`5
`
`6
`
`'1
`8
`9
`10
`
`11
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`15
`16
`1'?
`
`13
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`was used at a few universities -_
`Q.
`Who told —-
`
`A.
`
`—— and _-
`
`—— oh. sorry. Go ahead.
`Q.
`—- I don't recall if I asked that
`A.
`counsel -- that question of counsel at Jubilant
`or if it was told to we by the attorneys here.
`
`And that was with reference to
`Q.
`Version 1 being used at a few universities?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, I —— universities, and I believe
`
`it was used in trials in order to get approvals
`for Version 2.
`Q.
`Were any of those universities or
`trials in the limited States?
`
`Not to my loiowledge.
`A.
`Has the Version 1 device ever been
`Q.
`publicly available in the United States?
`A.
`Not to my knowledge.
`Q.
`Do you know how Version 1 has used in
`the universities?
`A.
`I do not know the details.
`Q.
`Okay.
`Is it your mderstandjng that
`
`
`
`. 11
`12
`
`i 13
`
`14
`15
`16
`1?
`
`' 18
`. 19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`A.
`Q.
`
`That's a likely statement.
`And just to be clear. Version 1
`
`predated Version 2, right?
`
`A.
`Q.
`
`Definitely.
`Okay.
`So to return to your analysis of the
`Klein Thesis with respect to the asserted
`
`patents, The Klein Thesis does not disclose that
`the infusion system is configured for the saline
`tubing line and the eluate tubing line to he
`routed through two timing passageways formed in a
`perimeter surface of the first opening. which we
`discussed yesterday was the generator
`ompartrrent, wherein each of the two tubing
`passageways has a depth configured to prevent
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(87'?) 479—2484
`
`

`

`Robert Stone, Ph.D.
`
`— Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Orc-
`
`October 10, 2018
`18 to 21
`
`i—
`
`Page 18
`Page
`302
`l CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS IN'E‘ORIETIW SUBJECT '10 PREVIECI'IW ORDER ,
`2
`pinching or crushing of a corresponding tubing
`I
`3
`line routed therech when a first door is
`4
`closed over the opening.
`5
`Is that correct?
`
`Page 20
`Page
`304
`1 CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFURMATICN SUBJECT 10 PRDI'ECI'IVE ORDER
`2
`figure.
`3
`4
`5
`
`So I‘d like to correct that
`testimony. That's -- the Klein Thesis was the
`source of that infomation, that there's a
`
`6
`'1
`
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`
`14
`15
`16
`
`1'?
`13
`19
`
`20
`21
`22
`
`23
`24.l
`25
`
`A.
`Q.
`
`I believe that is correct.
`And we also talked yesterday about
`
`the cart depicted in the Klein Thesis, and you
`stated that an external shell could have an open
`side, right?
`I did.
`A.
`Okay. But the Klein Thesis does not
`Q.
`disclose an exterior shell that extends upwardly
`
`above the platform and has a front side, a rear
`side,
`two sidewalls connecting the front side to
`the rear side.
`
`Right?
`I -~ I'm sorry. Repeat that. That
`a.
`doesn't sound correct.
`
`0.
`
`Sure.
`So I believe that the Klein Thesis
`does not disclose an exterior shell that extends
`
`6
`I
`
`8
`9
`10
`' 11
`12
`13
`
`14
`15
`16
`
`1'?
`' 13
`I 19
`
`20
`21
`22
`
`generator access lid on the top of the ICLein
`cart ~-
`
`Okay —-
`Q.
`~~ so if we can go to --
`A.
`-- so I want to v- yeah, let's go
`Q.
`through this one step at a time.
`So you're on Page 148 of your opening
`
`rqaort --
`
`A.
`Q.
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`-- Paragraph 32‘? ——
`Yes.
`
`-- An annotated version,
`Q.
`ICLein Thesis, Figure 2-4?
`A.
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`So we've got this figure.
`Okay.
`And could you make your correction
`
`again of -.
`
`upwardly above the platform and has a front side,
`a rear side,
`two sidewalls that connect the front
`side to the rear side.
`
`
`' 23
`24
`25
`
`I couldn't rarember where I
`Right.
`A.
`had gotten the information that there was a
`generator access lid on the top.
`It is from the
`
`Page 19
`Page
`303
`l WIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATICN SIEJEH '10 PROTECTIVE ORDER I
`2
`A.
`I don't think that's correct --
`
`Page 21
`Page
`305
`l OCNFIDWIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION SUBJECT TO PRUEECI'IVE ORDER
`2
`Klein Thesis, not from the Gen 1. And it's from
`
`
`
`
`
`his cart, and it shows the generator access lid
`annotated in his thesis.
`Q.
`Who placed these amotations here?
`
`A.
`
`I believe that's in his thesis.
`
`So I think it's
`Let's -- okay.
`0.
`Page 24 of the thesis, which .
`.
`.
`Keep going after that one.
`Which achibit number?
`MR. warm: Exhibit 30.
`THE WITNESS: Exhibit 30, all
`
`A.
`
`right.
`
`3
`4
`5
`
`6
`
`I
`a
`9
`10
`11
`12
`
`Gray.
`0.
`—— the fact that it's an opening does
`A.
`not mean it's not a side. And that opening is
`
`connected via the sidewalls to the back side.
`
`How do sidewalls connect an open side
`
`Q.
`to anything?
`Let's take a look at the Klein Thesis
`A.
`and the pictures.
`I believe I had it on --
`9.
`rep.
`A.
`-- 327.
`
`‘
`
`3
`4
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`I think this particular element
`Q.
`appears at Page 39'? to 393, Element 1.1.a of the
`'369 patent.
`A.
`
`Understood.
`I'm -- so I'm looking at 321, and I
`noted yesterda —-
`Q.
`Sorry to interrupt.
`The page, 321, or paragraph?
`Sorry. Paragraph 32?.
`-- I noted yesterday that I didn't
`have the confirmation from the Klein Thesis that
`
`A
`
`there was a generator access lid on the top, but
`it's clearly marked from the Klein Thesis in the
`
`13
`14
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`18
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`
`Sorry. These wer
`BY MS. BOOICBINDER:
`Q.
`Yeah,
`
`-—
`
`they had to mhind them to scan
`
`them.
`
`There you go.
`Okay.
`A.
`So you've got Exhibit 30,
`Q.
`Klein Thesis, at Page 24.
`And this is where Figure 24 cores
`
`the
`
`from?
`
`24
`25
`
`A.
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`Okay.
`
`So in your report, it looks
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`
`

`

`Ph.D.
`Robert Stone,
`- Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Or:
`22 to 25
`October 10, 2018
`
`
`immediatsusmessmomnnonsosmmmcrmom
`yesterday?
`A.
`
`I don't recall.
`
`2 L
`
`Dm--.J0‘1()1u:-w
`
`So returning to the question
`Okay.
`Q.
`of the sidewalls and the front side -— if we
`
`could get back to that, which was Paragraph 9T3.
`A.
`I‘m sorry.
`Paragraph?
`Q.
`Paragraph 9?} on Page 39?.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`This is Element l.1.a of the
`
`'859 patent relating to a Specific configuration
`of an exterior shell that has a front side, a
`
`rear side, and two sidewalls connecting the front
`side to the rear side.
`
`I understand your quinion is that the
`Klein Thesis discloses that elenent?
`A.
`Yes.
`
`So then try question is, How do
`Okay.
`Q.
`sidewalls connect an open space to anything?
`it
`There's not just open space -- space
`on that front side;
`there are lips that fold in
`from either side as well as from the top down
`onto that front side.
`
`So the open space and the those
`
`sidewalls make up the front side. those lips, if
`
`Page 25
`Page
`309
`1 CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION SUBJECT IO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`woos-Journey)“
`Hl—‘a—IHh—‘Hcombustible
`
`
`
`you would.
`sidewalls.
`
`So those are connected by the
`
`So the side —— are the lips that
`Q.
`you're referring to part of the sidewalls?
`A.
`They‘re folded over just as a
`continuous sheet metal -- piece of sheet metal
`that would fold around could be a front side and
`
`a back side u could be a part of it. They're
`extensions of the metal, but they're not on the
`side anymore.
`Q.
`How far does the metal need to extend
`from the side to be considered a front side?
`A.
`The front side —— if it folds around
`
`It's
`and extends, it's part of the front side.
`not along v- you're ~~ it might be part of ——
`sorry.
`
`MMMMNM
`
`
`
`
`
`i—‘I—‘HNHD
`
`._.Lu
`14
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`Page 22
`age 3%
`IOCNFIDENIIALEIJSINESINFORMATIONSUBJECFIDPROIECTIVEORDER‘
`like some of the labels were removed, and red
`
`
`
`\DWHJO'llfiltl-WN
`
`Hl—‘P—‘I—‘I—lD—‘l—‘El—‘HLoans-amusem-wHo
`MNMMMMlJ'IJb-bdMD—‘C:
`
`highlighting was added to the generator and
`generator acoess lid -~
`A.
`I believe that's correct, yes.
`Q.
`All right. And what is the generator
`access lid label pointing to?
`A.
`It's pointing to a piece of [total
`that —— its edge begins there in front of a --
`the valve in the motor and extends toward the
`front of the cart.
`
`Can you identify the boundaries of
`Q.
`that piece of. metal in this picture?
`A.
`Not conpletely, because the edges are
`darkened out, so it's irpossible to see. But, at
`least,
`lClein felt that there was a generator
`access lid and labeled that in his thesis.
`
`When you inspected the Version 1
`Q.
`system, did you see the generator access lid?
`is.
`Idid. Andlwantedtomakesure
`
`that was there.
`
`I recall asking the question,
`
`so —— my memory was foggy yesterday, but now I'm
`rerrenbering I'd seen this and I wanted to make
`sure it was there.
`
`Q.
`
`Did you review any materials since
`
`Page 23
`Page
`30?
`l mmm BUSINESS INFORIIIATICN SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE OFDER
`
`the deposition ended yesterday, before today,
`refresh your menmy abwt this?
`A.
`I looked at the reports that I had,
`YES “
`Q.
`
`You looked a
`
`~—
`
`to
`
`A. ——andIfoundinthereport...
`Q.
`So you looked at your opening report
`that -—
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`—— we've been discussing?
`Okay. But I believe you testified
`yesterday Uiat when you inspected the Version 1
`system,
`the generator access lid was -- no one
`moved it -~
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`—- correct?
`
`in this photo, you
`So to confirm,
`believe this label is pointing to a section ——
`not the whole top of the cart but a section of
`the cart that is novable?
`h.
`I believe that's correct.
`
`moo-Jmmm-wm
`
`MMMNNNHL—-HHHmrhUJMI—‘Dmg‘dgmuhwfibg
`
`It might be fabricated from the sane
`material as the sidewall, but that doesn't mean
`that it is "the sidewall."
`It has a lip, and
`it's now, you know, on the front side.
`Q.
`So it‘s your opinion that if there's
`Gray. Was there anything else that
`Q.
`a piece of material footing the sidewall that -—
`that exists, so not an opening but tutorial,
`like
`you discovered from your review of your reports
`sheet metal or something —— and it folds at all
`last night that needs to be corrected from
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484
`
`

`

`_ Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Orr
`26 to 29
`October 10, 2018
`
`26
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`attention to the construction of the sidewalls.
`I observed it, bu -—
`
`Q.
`A.
`
`All right.
`—- did not take notes.
`
`And you can tell from this photo that
`Q.
`the sidewalls do bend around.-
`they're not sirrply
`a thick piece of material?
`A.
`Oh.
`they're definitely thin pieces of
`neterial.
`I was —— I looked inside. saw where
`
`the lip went backwards. And there was a thin
`pieoe of metal in the sidewall.
`Q.
`So did you pay attention to the
`construction on the sidewalls when you reviewed
`the Version 1 device?
`
`You just asked if I was looking at
`A.
`the inside and whether it -- looking ~—
`reflecting back,
`I know I looked inside. saw that
`there was an enpty space between that spot and,
`there,
`that there was a lip that folded around
`And whether it was affixed to it with rivets or
`whether it folded around.
`the snooth comer
`
`appears to be folded around.
`Q.
`When you refer to "the smooth
`corner, " where in this picture can you see that?
`
`Page 29
`Page
`313
`1 CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION SUBJECT ID PROTECTIVE ORDER
`A.
`memothcorner's at ~-onthe
`
`\smumu‘fiwm
`
`mmmML—Iommqmmmwmwg
`MMMMMMHHHI—‘HD—‘P—‘P—‘H
`
`
`
`It appears to be a smooth corner
`left—hand side.
`that's folded around. and it's a —- a normal
`means of construction.
`
`And you're —- are you referring to
`Q.
`the —- the -- what appears in this photo on
`Page 399 to be the top left corner, so above and
`to the left of what appears to be a keyboard on
`the shelf?
`Is that the snooth corner?
`
`I would say left and extending up to
`A.
`there are folded-over lips on each of
`the top.
`those sides,
`in my opinion.
`Q.
`Do all four corners of the —~ the
`
`perspective of the cart that we got in this
`photo?
`That's what it appears.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`And regardless, there is material on
`A.
`the front that is oomected via sidewalls to the
`hack.
`
`
`
`Alrdtobeclear, it'syouropinion
`Q.
`that that material on the front is a disclosure
`
`of the front side in the patent claims?
`A.
`That material in the front is on the
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484
`
`1 2 3 l
`
`l 5 6 T 8 9 m n n
`
`'n
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`n u n n n n m n n
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`.n
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`n n
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`
`
`Robert Stone, Ph.D.
`
`by 90 degrees. even 1-mi11in'eter fold, you've now
`created a front side?
`
`I think that's an moggerated way of
`A.
`state -- stating it. Those are obviously on the
`front side and oonnected to the top sider and
`they fold around to the front side, each of those
`lips that I referred to.
`It's
`It‘s not a miniscule thing.
`there, and it's on the front of the device. And
`call it —— saying it's a front side airply
`because it is —— has -— is a hole is a limitation
`
`that I don't see required.
`Q.
`Okay.
`If the sidewalls did not have
`a lip and the top and the bottom did not have a
`lip,
`then would there be a front side?
`A.
`They would terminate at the front
`
`side.
`
`So the -- in your View, a front side
`Q.
`could be entirely open?
`A.
`Yes.
`
`And the —- so you mentioned that the
`Q.
`sidewalls bend to make a lip and. also.
`that the
`top and bottombend to make a lip?
`A.
`There's a —— a bottom piece of n'etal
`
`Page
`Page
`311
`WDENTIAL BUSINESS IN'FORI-MIQY SUBJECT TO PRDTECI'IVE ORDER
`
`2?
`
`that folds down from the -- the base there
`
`further on the front side, if you look at it
`carefully.
`The -- the bottom folds div-m or up?
`Q.
`That's hard to say.
`I‘m not sure if
`A.
`that's a sliding-out shelf or if it's a -— a
`piece that folds down from the frame.
`I would
`have to disassemble it to determine.
`
`But there is a fronting piece of
`metal on the front side at the bottom.
`
`Q.
`
`And that is around the area of where
`
`the printer appears?
`A.
`Yes,
`just forward of the area of the
`printer and the conputer.
`Q.
`I want to make sure we're looking at
`the same picture.
`You‘re on Page 399 or 398, or
`another —— what page are you on?
`A.
`I'm on 399.
`
`Q.
`
`399.
`
`Okay. When you reviewed the
`Version 1 device, did you observe the w the
`construction of the sidewalls?
`
`A.
`
`Ididnot payagreatdealof
`
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`

`

`Robert Stone , Ph.D.
`— Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Or:
`
`October ID, 2018
`30 to 33
`
`Page 30
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`Page 32
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`
`
`2
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`a
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`1'?
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`25
`
`front side of the cart.
`Q.
`I believe you testified yesterday,
`that in your opinion, a cabinet structure
`also,
`can have an own side, right?
`A.
`I did.
`
`Okay. How do you define the boundary
`Q.
`of the inner space of the cabinet structure that
`you say is disclosed in the Klein Thesis from the
`surrmmding area?
`A.
`I would assume that it stops —- no.
`I'm back to making an assmrption.
`I would define it as stopping when it
`reaches the boundary of the front side.
`Q.
`How do you define the boundary of the
`front side?
`You stop having more material out
`A.
`front —~ front.
`Q.
`What if you are in a space where
`there is no material, for example, again,
`in this
`Figure 2—3 from the Klein Thesis, the area where
`the -- it looks like a oon'puter mouse is sitting
`on the middle shelf?
`Is that --
`Yes.
`
`A.
`
`Page 31
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`315
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`1'
`El
`9
`10
`
`11
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`is
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`15
`16
`
`So there is no material in the
`Okay.
`Q.
`front direction in front of the computer muse on
`the middle shelf . right?
`A.
`That shelf, if you look at it, is a
`pullout shelf.
`It's a shelf; it's not part of
`
`the exterior portion of the cabinet.
`So I'm not sure that your —- what
`your question is pointing at.
`Q.
`Sure.
`
`So I'd like to understand ~~ so this
`same claim element, 1.1.a, that is reproduced on
`Page 391', we were forming on the first part
`about the sidewalls and such. The element
`
`omtinues to state, Wherein the platform and the
`exterior shell collectively defined an interior
`
`
`
`
`
`the edges, where is the boimdary of the interior
`space for that noose?
`A.
`It's sitting in the interior space on
`a shelf that's enclosed within the cart.
`Q.
`And where does the space end if you
`
`were saving in the -- in the front direction --
`if you're moving towards what you say is the
`front side, doesn't an interior space need to
`have a boundary?
`h.
`Wig?
`Q.
`What defines an interior space from
`the rest of the atmosphere?
`A.
`It's enclosed by the edges of the ——
`of the cart.
`So it's your view that the space is
`Q.
`enclosed even though a side is open?
`A.
`I didn't say that.
`I said the space
`is enclosed by the edges of the cart, not that
`the cart is necessarily closed.
`Q.
`Sine. you‘re right.
`
`I misspoke about
`
`that.
`
`the edges?
`A.
`
`So the interior space is enclosed by
`
`I would call it interior so long as
`
`
`.
`
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
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`I
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`10
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`15
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`
`1 would not call it
`it's enclosed by the edges.
`interior at that point if it goes —— extends
`beyond the edges.
`Q.
`And that is your opinion even though
`the edges are exactly what they —— what you said.
`
`edges.
`
`They do not extend across the
`entirety of the front side;
`they are only edges?
`A.
`That's oorrect.
`
`Okay. We began to talk yesterday
`Q.
`about the Bracoo Manual, which is Exhibit 31.
`The —— in your opinion,
`the
`Bracco Manual does not anticipate any of the
`
`It does not omtain
`asserted claims, right?
`every element of any of the asserted claim?
`
`I believe that‘s correct.
`h.
`I 1‘?
`space of the cabinet structure.
`17
`Okay. And the CardioGen-az system
`Q.
`- 13
`So I‘d like to understand your
`18
`that you expected and photographed also does not
`19
`opinion that this device has an interior space
`19
`anticipate any of the asserted claims, right?
`‘ 20
`and what the boundaries of that interior space
`20
`A.
`I —~ I believe that is correct.
`21
`are in the Klein Thesis.
`21
`Q.
`Okay. And yesterday. you testified
`22
`A.
`The boundaries of the interior space
`22
`that it was a case—by-case basis in your report
`‘ 23
`are the edges of the front of the -- the cabinet.
`23
`to understand whether you're relying on the
`24
`Q.
`And then in the simple of the
`24
`CardioGen—BZ system that you inspected or the
`25
`location of the muse, which is not near any of
`25
`
`
`U.S- LEGAL SUPPORT
`(877} 479—2484
`
`

`

`Ph.D.
`Robert Stone,
`- Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Oro
`34 to 37
` October 10, 2018
`
`Page 3 6
`fine 320
`1 WIDENTIAL BUSINESS DJFORI'ETIGJ SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`0.
`All right.
`So separate and apart
`from how the FIiA may consider all of these things
`in a bundle together with respect to the patent
`analysis, where we need to identify specifically
`each prior art reference that you‘re relying on,
`you are relying on a combination of the devica as
`a physical thing and the manual for your opinion
`that the claims are obvious?
`
`Bracco Hamel for your obviousness opinion,
`right?
`I believe that we cite the
`A.
`Bracco Marmal in all of those instances.
`
`I think, yesterday, we went through
`Q.
`the exercise of tracking back where you cited an
`internal paragraph for CardioGen—az, and it was
`actually a photograph of the system rather than a
`page of the manual.
`I think that is Mien you said it's
`
`case by case that we need to check each citation.
`
`Does that sound right?
`That sounds rig
`--
`may.
`—— I'd like to do a readback, but
`
`A.
`Q.
`A.
`
` 2 3 4 5 6 '
`
`1‘
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`B 9
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`20
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`23
`24
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`25
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`
`
`I rely on the CardioGen-BE system as
`A.
`prior art, and I mbstantiate the things that
`I've done by looking at the manual and
`referencing it to dermstrate that that device
`was prior art.
`that takes us back
`then,
`Q.
`So I think,
`that it just depends
`to the discussion yesterday,
`on what you cite for each element?
`A.
`Let's go element by olerent and see
`what's there.
`
`So if we go to
`All right.
`Q.
`Paragraph -- on the same page -- 1668.
`And you discuss the CardioGen-Bz
`Infusion System in that paragraph, right?
`A.
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. But then the next page,
`
`the
`
`15
`15
`1'?
`18
`15‘
`20
`21
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`25
`Again,
`look at Try -- if you'd cite
`
`
`that sounds like we used it to verify that met
`
`was in the manual was accurate.
`
`What doyoumeanbythat?
`Q.
`Well, we looked at the menial to see
`A.
`what was there,
`to see if it was an accurate
`
`description, as well as our photographs, and used
`that as the basis,
`I believe.
`is how I've done
`that.
`
`Page 35
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`
`some particular instance, I'd be glad to go over
`it with you.
`0.
`
`So let‘s turn to Page 505 of
`
`Sure.
`
`your report.
`
`And this is the first page of your
`opinions regarding the asserted claims being
`obvious in view of a CardicGen reference.
`
`In the title of this section, All
`
`Asserted Claims are Rendered Obvious by the
`CaIdiOGeo—BZ Infusion Bystan, which reference or
`carbination of references are you referring to?
`The Bracoo Marcel,
`the CardioGen device or both?
`
`Infusion system, as defined by the
`A.
`FDA as a product,
`is the device itself, all of
`its accessories and labeling.
`
`So trying to separate to say it's
`just what we looked at is the cart versus the
`label _- those are one and the sane, as far as
`
`the FDA is concerned. And they describe the
`entire system.
`
`I
`'
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`2
`3
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`5
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`8
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`15
`16
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`1?
`18
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`
`20
`21
`
`figure that's described in Paragraph 1668 is
`actually from the Braceo Hamel, right?
`A.
`That's correct.
`
`So can we be sure that your citations
`Q.
`to infusion system are the device and citations
`to the martial are the manual, or are -- do you
`use them interdiangeably?
`I —~ I just want to be
`sure we understand --
`MR. WALKER:
`
`I think this hadbeen
`
`I think
`I really do.
`asked and answered.
`he said that -- go through, see what he
`cites,- that's what he relies on ~-
`MS. BOOKBINDER; Sure.
`
`Well, I'd like to ask him about
`
`this specific citation at Paragraph 1663.
`MR. WALKER: And he told you.
`I mean, it says it right there,
`right --
`I --
`MS. BOOKBINDER: Well,
`MR. WALKER:
`-- Idon't understand
`
`22
`So it's completely acceptable to use
`23
`either one of those and be, at least with regard
`24
`to one Government agency, dismissing the same
`thing.
`25
`
`where you're going.
`—— I'd like to
`MS. BODICBINDER:
`hear it from -- from Dr. Stone to
`understand --
`
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`479~2484
`
`(877)
`
`

`

`Robert Stone, Ph. D.
`— Confidential Business Information Subject to Protective Or:
`
`October 10, 2018
`38 to 41
`
`Page 38
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`MR. WALIER: He told you.
`MS. MINOR:
`—~ what his -- his
`
`--
`
`MR. WALKER:
`
`It's asked and
`
`answered.
`—~ evidence is.
`KS. BOOKBDIDER:
`THE WITNESS:
`I said I rely on the
`Bracco system. 32. and that I use the
`normal as illustrations to what's in the
`thing Because it would be quite
`diffimt to take a picture and show all
`
`of those coupments at once, whereas the
`W1 and the literature that hooked it
`up have been available for quite sons
`tine.
`
`There's no reason to suspect that
`the renual is inaccurate in portraying
`what was in the device.
`It makes it
`clear.
`BY MS. BOOKBINDER:
`
`What literature are you referring to”:I
`Q.
`The model.
`A.
`I think -— you said the -- the martial
`Q.
`and the literature that backs it up.
`I want to
`
`I
`I
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`you what it is.
`Q.
`All right.
`And then in the last paragraph of
`this element. Therefore. it is my opinion that
`
`the CardioGen—BZ Infusion System teaches the
`subject matter, you do not have an additional
`paragraph like we saw yesterday in your
`discussion of the Klein Thesis of other
`references redmdantly teaching something.
`And I don't believe I saw a paragraph
`like that in any of your CardioGen discussion.
`
`Do you know if that's accurate?
`Let's go -~ I want to go paragraph by
`A.
`I don't resents-1r every citation in
`paragraph.
`this _- in this particular case.
`Q.
`Do you know why, at least in the
`elements that we have looked at so far in your
`discussion of CardioGen, you do not have the
`additional discussion of. you know.
`redundant
`references in the CardioGen section?
`
`Because in buil