UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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` VISA INC. and VISA U.S.A. INC.,
` Petitioners,
` v.
` UNIVERSAL SECURE REGISTRY LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` __________________________________________
` Case No. IPR2018-01350
` U.S. Patent No. 8,856,539
`
` DEPOSITION OF BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D.
` Redwood Shores, California
` Thursday, August 1, 2019
`
`REPORTED BY:
`CYNTHIA MANNING, CSR No. 7645, CLR, CCRR
`JOB NO. 164262
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`VISA - EXHIBIT 1015
`Visa Inc. et al. v. Universal Secure Registry LLC
`IPR2018-01350
`
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` VISA INC. and VISA U.S.A. INC.,
` Petitioners,
` v.
` UNIVERSAL SECURE REGISTRY LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` __________________________________________
` Case No. IPR2018-01350
` U.S. Patent No. 8,856,539
`
` DEPOSITION OF BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D.
` Redwood Shores, California
` Thursday, August 1, 2019
`
`REPORTED BY:
`CYNTHIA MANNING, CSR No. 7645, CLR, CCRR
`JOB NO. 164262
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`VISA - EXHIBIT 1015
`Visa Inc. et al. v. Universal Secure Registry LLC
`IPR2018-01350
`
`
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`Page 2
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` August 1, 2019
` 8:57 a.m.
`
` Deposition of BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D.,
`held at Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan, LLP, 555
`Twin Dolphin Drive, Fifth Floor, Redwood Shores,
`California, before Cynthia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 7645, Certified LiveNote Reporter,
`California Certified Realtime Reporter.
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`Page 3
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` WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
` Attorneys for Petitioners
` 650 Page Mill Road
` Palo Alto, CA 94304
` BY: MATTHEW ARGENTI, ESQ.
`
` QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
` 50 California Street
` San Francisco, CA 94111
` BY: BRIAN MACK, ESQ.
`
` Also present:
` Christina Hollander, Visa In-house Counsel
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` REDWOOD SHORES, CALIFORNIA;
` THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 2019; 8:57 A.M.
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`Page 4
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` BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, PH.D.,
` having first been duly sworn, testified as
` follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Could you please state your name for the
`record.
` A. Bjorn Markus Jakobsson.
` Q. And you've been deposed a number of times
`before today; is that right?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. About how many times would you say you have
`been deposed?
` A. I would be estimating, but about 30 maybe.
` Q. And at least two of those have been in the
`last year; right?
` A. Yes. One was last week.
` Q. So you are probably familiar with how things
`work, but I'm going to quickly go through some of the
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`ground rules.
` Do you understand that you're providing your
`testimony under oath, and you're expected to tell the
`truth?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any reason you cannot provide
`complete and accurate testimony today?
` A. Not that I know of.
` Q. Have you taken any medication that would
`prevent you from giving accurate answers?
` A. No.
` Q. Hopefully my questions are clear, but if you
`don't understand any question, please let me know that
`it's unclear.
` Under the guidelines for this proceeding, you
`must ask me for any clarification. If you do not tell
`me otherwise, I will assume that you understand the
`question.
` Okay?
` A. Understood.
` Q. Please provide verbal answers, rather than
`nodding your head, for the benefit of the record and the
`reporter.
` Okay?
` A. Will do.
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` Q. And we can take a break at any time you'd like
`as long as there is not a question pending.
` Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Are you being compensated for your testimony
`in this proceeding?
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. Who is providing that compensation?
` A. I am receiving a check from Quinn Emanuel. I
`believe that they are being paid by the client.
` Q. The client, USR?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You're being compensated at an hourly rate?
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. What is that rate?
` A. $625.
` Q. How much have you billed USR to date for your
`work in this matter?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. And let me be specific. For your work in all
`of the USR matters, not just this Visa IPR. Do you
`have any idea how much you've billed USR for your work
`in all the USR-related matters?
` A. I'm sorry, I still would not know. I could
`estimate, but it would be rather much of speculation
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`since I don't have my billing spreadsheet in front of
`me.
` Q. Okay. I believe earlier this year you were
`deposed by Apple, in March, and during that deposition
`you answered that at that point you had billed over
`$100,000.
` Does that sound right?
` A. That sounds about right.
` Q. So then is it safe to assume that you've now
`billed more than you had at that point in March?
` A. Not that much more because things have cooled
`down a little bit, but not less of course.
` Q. How many times have you been deposed before
`March and now in the USR matters?
` A. I don't remember.
` Q. More than once?
` A. I cannot recall. I'm sorry.
` Q. Would you say you've billed USR more than
`$150,000 for the work on the USR matters?
` A. If you're asking have I billed USR at least
`$50,000 since I was sitting for that deposition in
`March, I don't think so. I think it would be less, but
`I -- again, without my spreadsheet, it's hard to know
`for sure.
` Q. Okay. But at this point, your best estimate
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`is you billed USR somewhere between 50- and $100,000 in
`the USR matters?
` A. Based on my previous estimate which, like this
`one, may be off. What I am really saying is that I
`have not billed more than $50,000 since that, in my,
`you know, slightly from-the-hip guesstimate of how much
`I billed in this case.
` Q. Can you estimate what percentage of your
`annual income comes from your work for USR?
` A. That is also hard to tell. I would say it's
`less than 10 percent of my total compensation of
`various types.
` (USR Exhibit 2004, previously marked for
` identification, was referenced herein)
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
` MR. MACK: Thank you.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. I just handed you what's been marked as
`Exhibit 2004 in this proceeding.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. What is it?
` A. It's one of my declarations.
` Q. This declaration was submitted in support of
`USR's Patent Owner response in an Inter Partes Review
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`proceeding initiated by Visa; correct?
` A. That's my understanding, yes.
` Q. And that's in IPR2018-01350; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And your declaration offers opinions regarding
`U.S. Patent No. 8,856,539?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If I refer to that patent as "the '539 patent"
`today, will you understand what I'm talking about?
` A. Yes, I will.
` Q. Can you turn to the last page of your
`declaration, please.
` Is that your signature?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. Who wrote your declaration?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` Caution the witness not to reveal the
`substance of any attorney-client privileged
`communications.
` THE WITNESS: So this was a collaborative
`effort. Some portions were written almost entirely by
`me; others were dictated or guided by me; and others,
`such as the legal understanding, I was provided with
`and made sure that I understood before I signed off.
`//
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`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Can you identify for me which portions you
`wrote yourself?
` A. Not at this time. I don't recall.
` Q. Can you give me an estimate of what percentage
`of your declaration you wrote?
` A. So often I would provide arguments and then I
`would receive a sentence back that was not written by
`me, but was a better formulation or a more legalese
`look of the argument I made.
` So if you count that as being written by me,
`almost everything was written by me.
` Q. Before signing your declaration, did you
`carefully review it to ensure its accuracy?
` A. Many times.
` Q. Sitting here today, do you believe the
`declaration is accurate?
` A. No. I know of at least one typo. Although,
`not in this declaration. In the other declaration that
`we're probably going to talk about today, I know of one
`typo of significance.
` Q. Okay. Since you brought it up.
` (USR Exhibit 2010, previously marked for
` identification, was referenced herein)
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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` MR. MACK: Thanks.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. So now, Dr. Jakobsson, I've just handed you
`what's been marked as USR Exhibit 2010 in
`IPR2018-01350.
` Is this the other declaration that you were
`just referring to?
` A. It is, yes.
` Q. This is your declaration in support of Patent
`Owner's conditional motion to amend; correct?
` A. It is, yes.
` Q. And on the last page, is that your signature?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. Okay. And was the process of writing this
`declaration similar to what you described for Exhibit
`2004?
` A. No, it was not.
` Q. Who wrote this declaration?
` A. So everything that relates to amended claims
`was written by somebody else. The only parts that I
`have written here is the analysis of those claims.
` Q. Can you identify the specific portions for the
`distinction that you're making?
` A. Let me give you an example. In paragraph 29,
`which is the first paragraph of the section that's
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`called "Substitute Claims 39-52," you will see the
`proposed substitute claims; for example, on page 9
`there is claim 39 which is a proposed substitute claim
`for claim 1. I did not write any of this.
` You will see underlined portions there
`corresponding to additions. I did not write those. I
`did not suggest them. They were given to me, and I was
`asked to determine whether there was support for them.
` That support is in other portions of this
`declaration --
` Q. I see.
` A. -- starting, it looks like, in paragraph 30,
`on page 13.
` For those portions that don't contain proposed
`claims, which I was not involved in proposing, the text
`was written in the same way as I described for the
`other declaration.
` Q. So the proposed amendments themselves you did
`not write; correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. But then the analysis of those proposed
`amendments, starting at page -- sorry, paragraph 30 and
`continuing to the end of the declaration, you
`contributed to writing?
` A. I'd have to look at each page to make sure,
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`but, in general, the analysis of the claims and the
`written description of support, they were written in
`the same manner which I described before, which was a
`collaborative effort.
` If there is a boilerplate legal understanding
`part in these pages, that was not written by me.
` Q. Did you contribute to developing the proposed
`amendments?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Would you explain what you mean?
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. When the proposed amendments were provided to
`you, as you just explained, had you had any discussions
`at that point about what the proposed amendments should
`be?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` I'll just caution the witness not to reveal
`the substance of any attorney-client privileged
`communications.
` THE WITNESS: Based on the guidance I got from
`Brian, I don't have to answer that question.
` MR. ARGENTI: I'm sorry, are you claiming
`attorney-client privilege for your communications with
`Dr. Jakobsson?
` MR. MACK: Yes. That's what attorney-client
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`privileged communications are.
` MR. ARGENTI: Is Dr. Jakobsson a client?
` MR. MACK: Well, okay, work product then. He
`is an expert. So attorney-client privileged
`communications. So these are privileged communications
`with the expert. If it's not the basis of his
`opinions, then they are not privileged.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Dr. Jakobsson, are you refusing to answer
`whether you contributed to developing the proposed
`amended claims?
` A. I'm not. I just don't know how to answer the
`question based on -- correct me if I am mistaken, but I
`believe I was given an instruction not to answer.
` Is that correct?
` MR. MACK: Yes. Any communications between
`Dr. Jakobsson and us are work product or otherwise
`privileged.
` THE WITNESS: So I can do my best to answer
`the question without giving any work product.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. This is a yes-or-no question.
` Did you contribute in any way to what the
`amended claims should be prior to having the amended
`claims provided to you?
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` A. Not that I know of.
` Q. Okay.
` A. If there was a question that I answered that
`the answer guided the development of the amended
`claims, that was without my knowledge.
` Q. Once the amended claims were provided to you
`in written form, did the amended claims change at all
`before the form that they show up in in your
`declaration?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I cannot recall that happening.
`If it did, it would be nonmemorable. It might be a
`typo that was fixed, for example. But there was
`nothing that I said this is not good.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Okay. Speaking of typos, I believe you
`mentioned a typo. Can you identify it for me, please?
` A. Maybe it's better if we take it when we find
`it. There is one claim limitation that is correctly
`stated -- it's stated as it was submitted in paragraph
`29, but in my analysis of it later, the description of
`that limitation was mistakenly truncated. There was
`some words missing.
` Q. But you're unable to identify where that typo
`is in your declaration?
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` A. I would need -- if you want me to, I can go
`through it now and look. I need to match the
`limitations described in the various paragraphs to the
`limitations in paragraph 29 in order to find it. I
`thought I remembered which one it was, but then I'm not
`so sure anymore.
` Q. Maybe during the break. I don't think we
`need --
` A. It's not important for my sake. We can do it
`now if you wish.
` Q. Like I said, maybe during a break.
` A. Sure.
` Q. Did you do anything to prepare for this
`deposition?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. What did you do?
` A. Among other things, I reviewed the two
`declarations.
` Q. Did you review any other documents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What documents did you review?
` MR. MACK: Objection. I'll just instruct the
`witness not to reveal the contents of any documents
`that you reviewed with counsel unless it forms the
`basis of your declaration, but otherwise you can answer
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`the question.
` THE WITNESS: One document I reviewed, at
`least in part, was the '539 patent.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Okay. Anything else?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What else?
` A. Another document that I reviewed is the Brener
`patent or patent application. I can't recall right
`now. The document that is referred to in here as
`"Brener."
` Q. Mm-hmm.
` A. Not in full, but portions of it again.
` Q. And did you review any other documents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What other documents?
` A. I reviewed portions of the document that we
`referred to as "Desai."
` Q. Anything else?
` A. There might be other things that I reviewed
`and they are described in the declaration. If you want
`to, we could -- as you're asking me questions about
`various documents, I can say whether this is something
`I reviewed in preparation or not.
` Q. Right now though, aside from the two
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`declarations, the '539 patent, Brener and Desai, can
`you remember reviewing any other documents in
`preparation for this deposition?
` A. Give me a moment and I'll flip through this
`and I might recall.
` (Reviewing document.)
` I reviewed one portion of the deposition
`transcript of a deposition of Dr. Tygar. He was
`proposing his view on what one particular portion of a
`claim limitation meant and offered two opinions, one of
`which makes no sense and the other one which I believe
`is correct.
` Q. Which claim limitation was that?
` A. I'd have to search for that.
` Q. Are you referring to Brener's private-key
`authorization code?
` A. I am.
` Q. So it's not a claim limitation?
` A. Sorry, my mistake. It's understanding what
`Brener meant by that term in the specification of
`Brener.
` Q. Did you review any other portions of Dr.
`Tygar's deposition transcript?
` MR. MACK: And, again, to the extent you
`reviewed these with counsel during preparation, you're
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`instructed not to answer; but if you reviewed any
`portions of the deposition on your own, you may answer.
` THE WITNESS: I reviewed other portions of the
`transcript of Dr. Tygar's deposition prior to the
`preparation I had of this deposition but not during the
`preparation of the deposition.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Okay. What other portions -- are you
`referring to proportions that you reviewed when
`preparing your declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So those portions are cited in your
`declaration?
` A. To the extent that they were worth citing.
` Q. Did you meet with anyone to prepare for your
`deposition?
` THE WITNESS: Brian and I met for about a half
`hour this morning. I had phone meetings yesterday and
`the day before.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Who participated in those phone meetings?
` A. I think it was yesterday and the day before.
`I know it was yesterday, but it might be the day before
`yesterday, the other one.
` Yesterday, I believe Brian, Jordan and Raz
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`were participating. The previous day, which might have
`been Monday, I think it was just Raz.
` Q. How long was that first call with Raz?
` Razmig Messerian; correct?
` A. Yes. That call was more than half an hour but
`less than an hour.
` Q. And then how long was the call with Brian,
`Jordan and Raz?
` A. That was more than one hour but less than an
`hour and a half.
` Q. In addition to your work for USR, you served
`as an expert in numerous other patent litigations;
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Approximately how many cases have you served
`as an expert witness?
` A. I'm not sure. I can estimate it, if you wish.
` Q. Please.
` A. When you say "case," how do you define that?
` Q. Well, we can take it first with District Court
`infringement cases. Could you estimate how many
`District Court infringement cases you've served as a
`patent expert witness?
` A. Fifteen to 20, I would say, but that's
`slightly a guesstimate.
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` Q. Sure.
` And how about Patent Office proceedings, such
`as IPRs, how many cases have you served as an expert
`witness there?
` A. Now, I need to ask you when you say one case,
`does that correspond to one particular declaration, or
`does it correspond to one or more declarations that are
`associated with each other and related to one District
`Court case?
` Q. Well, for instance, you submitted three
`declarations in this proceedings; correct?
` A. I'm aware of two of them. The ones in front
`of me. Please jog my memory which one the third one
`is.
` Q. Do you also recall submitting a declaration in
`support of USR's preliminary response in this
`proceeding?
` A. I'm sure you're right, but I don't remember
`the names of the various declarations.
` Q. Sure.
` But anyway, back to your question, let's
`consider this a single proceeding where you've
`submitted multiple declarations. So one case. One
`IPR.
` A. Okay.
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` Q. So then with that in mind, how many Patent
`Office proceedings have you served as an expert
`witness?
` A. My estimate would be on the order of 20.
` Q. In how many of those cases both in District
`Court and at the Patent Office did you work on behalf
`of the patent owner?
` A. I looked at this rather recently and realized
`that it was almost a perfect 50/50 breakdown. It might
`have strayed a little bit in one direction now, but
`it's not far from 50/50.
` Q. In what year were you first retained as an
`expert for patent litigation?
` A. I don't know for sure, but it was around 2007.
` Q. Where are you currently employed?
` A. I work at a company called Amber Solutions.
`And I'm missing one word here. There is one more word
`in the name of the company. It's a little bit
`embarrassing.
` Q. Like "incorporated" or "limited" or something
`like that?
` A. That might be it, but I'm not sure. So I
`refer to the company as "Amber."
` Q. Okay. And what type of business is Amber in?
` A. Amber is an IoT company that, among other
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`things, builds hardware that goes into gang boxes in
`people's and enterprises' walls. That is not what I am
`doing.
` The equipment that goes into these gang boxes,
`which corresponds to outlets and switches, have sensors
`that detect various environmental changes and collects
`data related to these and transports portions of that
`data to a backend where it's analyzed.
` One thing that I am in charge of is to make
`sure that this is done in a secure manner and that this
`does not hurt the privacy of the homeowner or business
`that uses this; in other words -- in other words,
`making sure that we're not installing big brother in
`our walls.
` Q. Sounds like a good goal.
` A. It's a very good goal.
` Q. So it doesn't sound like Amber's business
`involves anonymous financial transactions; is that
`right?
` A. That's absolutely right.
` Q. How long have you been employed at Amber?
` A. A little bit more than a year.
` Q. What's your title there?
` A. Chief of security and data analytics.
` Q. Prior to Amber, you worked at Agari; is that
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`right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. What type of business is Agari?
` A. Agari is in the e-mail security business.
`They have two products that I'm aware of. One product
`detects spoofing and it relates to what is called
`DMARC. D-M-A-R-C. And the other product detects what
`is commonly referred to as "CEO Fraud," or a business
`e-mail compromise, which is when you receive an e-mail
`that appears to come from somebody that you know, but
`it isn't.
` Q. So is it accurate to say, then, that your work
`at Agari didn't involve anonymous financial
`transaction?
` A. Agari was not interested in anonymous or
`financial transactions.
` Q. What was your role at Agari?
` A. I was chief scientist.
` Q. You also worked at RSA Labs at one point;
`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. I think your CV says that was 2001 to 2004.
`Does that sound right?
` A. That's about right.
` Q. What was your role at RSA Labs?
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` A. I was part of the research team there. RSA
`Labs is the research group of RSA or, rather, at the
`time that I was there that is what it was.
` Q. What were your responsibilities at RSA Labs?
` A. I was one of the researchers there.
` Q. What was your area of research?
` A. Privacy was one. I studied anonymous
`communications, what is commonly referred to as "mixed
`networks," but my work was not limited to mixed
`networks. I did other work related to security and
`privacy.
` Q. Is it safe to say you're familiar with the use
`of RSA public-key algorithms for digital signatures
`prior to March of 2001?
` MR. MACK: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: When you say that I'm familiar
`with, what do you mean?
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. I mean are you familiar with them.
` A. I never implemented these as a developer would
`think of it, but I was certainly aware of an
`understanding of how it worked on the conceptual level.
`So the exact formatting of various fields I might not
`have been aware of, but the process, why it's
`performed, in general, I would certainly have
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`understood at that time.
` Q. What's a digital signature?
` A. In the context of how a person of skill in the
`art would have used it related to cryptographic digital
`signatures, which I say to delineate it from what's
`sometimes called "digitized signatures," which is kind
`of a scanned signature that is made part of the
`document, which I don't want to confuse with digital
`signatures, a digital signature in this context is
`something that allows a party who is in possession of a
`private key that corresponds to a public key to show in
`relation to a particular message that they had
`possession of the private key.
` Q. Digital signatures have existed since at least
`the 1990s; correct?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That is correct.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Earlier you mentioned that you had reviewed
`portions of Dr. Tygar's deposition transcript. Prior
`to your involvement in this case, were you familiar
`with Douglas Tygar?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How so?
` A. He is a well-recognized researcher in the
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`field.
` Q. In what field?
` A. In the field of cryptography, among other
`things.
` Q. Had you ever read any of Dr. Tygar's
`publications before your involvement in this case?
` A. Yes, I have. I cannot recall which particular
`ones, but I have read publications that he was a
`coauthor on.
` Q. More than one, it sounds like?
` A. I can't recall the number, but it would not
`surprise me if it was more than one.
` (Visa Exhibit 1001, previously marked for
` identification, was referenced herein)
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Dr. Jakobsson, I've just handed you what has
`been marked as Exhibit 1001 in this proceeding.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. This is the '539 patent; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you read this patent when forming your
`opinions in this case?
` A. I read at least portions of this patent. I
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`would say most all of it, yes.
` Q. Did you read this patent in its entirety?
` A. I did not review page 2, References Cited.
`And I don't think I read claims that were not asserted.
`No. Wait. I did not claims that were not asserted.
` Q. Starting at column 1 going through column 18,
`to the beginning of claim 1, did you read that entire
`portion of the specification in its entirety?
` A. I would think so.
` Q. You're serving as an expert in other cases
`involving other USR patents; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And some of the content of those patents is
`similar to what's in the '539; correct?
` MR. MACK: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: That is true.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. Is it possible that you scanned portions of
`the '539 patent that you thought were similar to those
`other USR patents?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I would be speculating, but I
`read these patents carefully. Even though they have
`similarities, they are different. And in order to do a
`good job, I would have to know what it says in each one
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`of them.
` So, of course, I can't say if I missed one
`sentence or, you know, how you sometimes read something
`twice or forget to read one row, one sentence, but
`short of that, I believe I have read all of it.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. The '539 patent generally relates to using
`authentication of a user to determine whether a
`transaction is performed; correct?
` MR. MACK: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure exactly if that is
`how I characterized it in my declaration, but it --
`when you describe it like that, it's something I
`understand to be associated with the '539 patent.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. So you would agree, then, that the '539 patent
`generally relates to using authentication of a user to
`determine whether a transaction is performed; right?
` MR. MACK: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: So that is one characterization,
`but I don't know if that is the most accurate
`characterization. In the context here, I would have to
`go and look at the characterization I made in the
`declaration in order to answer that question.
` (Reviewing document.)
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` In paragraph 25 of Exhibit 2004, I make a
`characterization of the '539 patent. It's a little bit
`wordier than what you described, but that also means
`that it captures things that you may not have captured
`in your characterization.
` I say:
` "The '539 patent provides a unique and highly
` secure anonymous identification system that
` uses a time-varying multicharacter code for
` both verifying the identity of an entity and
` enabling transactions between the entity and a
` provider without requiring the entity to share
` personal or otherwise sensitive information
` with the provider."
` So that gives a little bit more depth than the
`shorter characterization that you gave.
`BY MR. ARGENTI:
` Q. This is not your first deposition involving
`the '539 patent, is it, Dr. Jakobsson?
` A. I don't believe it is, but please don't ask me
`how many.
` Q. Do you recall that you were deposed by counsel
`for Apple on April 24th, 2019, regarding the '539
`patent?
` A. I have forgotten the exact dates and I don't
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`remember when -- which one of my declarations were -- I
`was deposed on by Apple, but I do remember Apple
`deposing me in relation to the '539 patent.
` (Apple Exhibit 1137, previously marked for
` identification
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