`
`Page 1
`
`ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Apple Inc.
`Petitioner,
`v.
`Qualcomm Incorporated
`Patent Owner
`
`_________________________
`Cases IPR2018-01315; -0316
`U.S. Patent No. 8,063,674
`--------------------------
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`DEPOSITION OF ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`FRIDAY, MARCH 22, 2019
`FISH & RICHARDSON
`ONE MARINA PARK DRIVE
`BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS
`
`Reported by: Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRA
`Job No: 157441
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`(cid:36)(cid:83)(cid:83)(cid:79)(cid:72)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:81)(cid:70)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:89)(cid:17)(cid:3)
`(cid:52)(cid:88)(cid:68)(cid:79)(cid:70)(cid:82)(cid:80)(cid:80)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:81)(cid:70)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:83)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:68)(cid:87)(cid:72)(cid:71)(cid:3)
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:27)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:22)(cid:20)(cid:25)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:22)
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4 5
`
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 2
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` March 22, 2019
`
` 9:23 a.m.
`
` Deposition of Robert W. Horst,
`Ph.D., held at Fish & Richardson, One Marina
`Park Drive, Boston, Massachusetts, pursuant
`to Notice, before Sandra A. Deschaine, a
`Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional
`Reporter, Certified LiveNote Reporter, and
`Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of
`Massachusetts.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5 6
`
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` JONES DAY
` Attorneys for the Patent Owner:
` 901 Lakeside Avenue
` Cleveland, OH 44114
` BY: DAVID COCHRAN, ESQ.
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` Attorneys for the Petitioner:
` One Marina Park Drive
` Boston, MA 02210
` BY: WHITNEY REICHEL, ESQ.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 4
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D., Deponent,
`having first been satisfactorily identified
`by the production of her driver's license and
`duly sworn by the Notary Public, was examined
`and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Dr. Horst, welcome back.
` A. Hello.
` Q. Can you state your name and
`address for the record, sir?
` A. Robert Horst, 182 Glenn Avenue in
`Santa Cruz, California.
` Q. And you understand that you're
`under oath today, Dr. Horst?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any reason you cannot
`testify truthfully today, sir?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you been deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When was the last time you were
`deposed?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`
`7 8
`
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. Two days ago.
` Q. I had to do that just for fun. I
`assume you didn't have another deposition in
`between that one and today.
` This deposition pertains to your
`declaration testimony in two IPR matters.
`Those matters are IPR Case IPR2018-01315;
`-01316.
` Is that your understanding, sir?
` A. Yes.
`(Exhibit 1003, In the United States Patent
`and Trademark Office, Declaration of Robert
`W. Horst, Ph.D., previously marked.)
` Q. The court reporter is handing you
`what's been previously marked as Apple 1003.
` Do you recognize that document,
`Dr. Horst?
` A. Yes, this is my expert report on
`the '674 patent.
` Q. And you submitted this expert
`report or declaration in both matters:
`IPR2018-01315; -01316; is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And as you mentioned, this
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`declaration relates to U.S. Patent 8,063,674,
`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And so for today's discussion,
`we'll call that the '674 patent for
`shorthand.
` Is that okay with you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you turn to page 85 of the
`declaration, Dr. Horst?
` And is that your signature on page
`85, Dr. Horst?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you write this document,
`Dr. Horst?
` A. Yes, I wrote this document with
`the assistance of counsel.
` Q. Are there any mistakes in that
`document that you're aware of?
` A. There may be a few typos, but
`there are no errors of substance that I know
`about.
` Q. This document sets forth your
`opinions with respect to the patentability of
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`U.S. 8,063,674, the '674, patent; is that
`right?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
`Mischaracterizes the document.
` A. That is -- this document relates
`to that patent. It's not specifically
`calling for conclusions about the
`patentability.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Does this document set forth any
`conclusions regarding the patentability of
`the '674 patent?
` A. In this document, I was asked to
`discuss the prior art and how it relates to
`the claim elements of the '674.
` Q. Do you have any opinions regarding
`the patentability of the '674 patent?
` A. The -- in my opinion, at least
`some of the claims of the '674 are invalid
`based on the prior art that is cited here,
`but I did not go through a claim-by-claim
`analysis and haven't reported conclusions on
`each claim in this document.
` Q. So your declaration does not set
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`forth any opinions regarding the
`patentability of the '674 patent; is that
`correct?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection, form,
`vague.
` A. My document is related to the
`claim terms which show that prior art
`included claim elements of the patent -- of
`the claims of the '674.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. You've been an expert in patent
`infringement cases, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever opined on the
`validity of a patent?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. Have you ever prepared an expert
`report where you opined on the validity of
`the patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And those instances where you
`provided an expert report on the validity of
`a patent, did you come to a conclusion
`whether the patent was valid or not?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` MS. REICHEL: Dr. Horst, I know
`you know this, but I'll just caution you. I
`don't know what cases you may refer to in
`your response and what obligations you had or
`discovery protections existed in that case as
`to opinions that weren't set forth in the
`reports of those cases, so just keep that in
`mind when you answer.
` A. I have written expert reports
`where I opined on the validity of particular
`claims of patents.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. And in those expert reports, did
`you provide an opinion that the patent was
`valid or invalid?
` A. In those reports, I was opining
`about claims of patents. So I'm not sure
`what you mean by --
` Q. In those reports, did you provide
`an opinion that the patent was valid or
`invalid?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to the
`form.
` A. In -- in -- in those reports,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`sometimes all the claims were not asserted or
`challenged. So in those reports I reported
`on the -- I gave opinions on the validity of
`certain claims.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Do you have any opinions regarding
`the '674 that are not set forth in your
`declaration, Apple 1003?
` MS. REICHEL: I'm going to caution
`the witness. That question was very broad,
`and there's an agreement between the parties
`to this case not to reveal the content of
`attorney-client communications and
`information that was not ultimatley relied
`upon in preparation for the declaration.
` I'll allow you to answer that
`question at a very high level but just want
`to caution you not to reveal the substance of
`any attorney-client communications or any
`work product.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. And just to clarify. I'm not
`asking for any of that stuff. I'm asking
`whether you have any opinions that aren't set
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`forth in this document regarding the '674
`patent.
` A. Today I'm testifying about the
`scope of what is in my expert report.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Okay. Fair enough.
`(Exhibit 1001, U.S. Patent No. 8,063,674,
`previously marked.)
` So the court reporter is now
`handing you what's previously been marked as
`Apple 1001.
` Do you recognize this document,
`Dr. Horst?
` A. Yes. This is the '674 patent.
` Q. And you've read the '674 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. All of it?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You've read all the claims?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How many times would you say
`you've read the '674 patent?
` A. I've had read it several times.
` Q. More than ten?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. I have -- may have read portions
`of it more than 10 times but not the entire
`patent more than 10 times.
` Q. Can you turn to Column 1? It's on
`page 10, line 58. And starting on Column 1,
`line 58, the '674 patent describes the
`circuit that is shown in Figure 1 of the
`patent, correct?
` A. The -- this text says "Figure 1 is
`a circuit diagram illustrating a standard POC
`system 10 for multiple supply voltage
`devices." So Figure 1 is a prior art figure.
` Q. Yeah. I was just asking you
`whether that was the beginning of the
`discussion in Figure 1; is that correct?
` A. It appears to be.
` Q. If you move on to Column 2, same
`page, beginning at line 17, it's still
`referring to Figure 1, the '674 patent
`states, "However, when I/O power supply 104
`is powered up before core power supply 10
`powers up, substantial current leakage may
`occur in the power up/down detector 100 or in
`the POC 10," correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. That's what it says.
` Q. Dr. Horst, what is a power up/down
`detector?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form to
`the extent it calls for a legal conclusion
`with respect to the construction.
` A. Are you asking about the claim
`term "power up/down detector"?
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. No, I'm asking about the statement
`in Column 2, line 17, that refers to the
`power up/down detector 100 that is shown in
`Figure 1.
` Do you know what a power up/down
`detector is, Dr. Horst?
` MS. REICHEL: Same objection.
` A. The scope of everything that could
`be considered a power up/down detector is not
`something that I am giving an opinion on, but
`Figure 1, at least, qualifies as a power
`up/down detector.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Well, what is the purpose of a
`power up/down detector?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. The purpose is to determine when
`the, in this case, the voltage called V.core
`is at a sufficient level that it can be
`detected and used by the -- by the circuits.
` Q. Outside of Figure 1 of the '674
`patent, do you have an understanding of what
`a power up/down detector is?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. The term "power up/down detector,"
`in general, is used in a slightly different
`way. So if you're asking about the specific
`claims here, I can answer that.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. No, I'm not. I'm just asking,
`generally, outside of the Figure 1 of the
`'674 patent, what I'm trying to understand,
`if you understand what a power up/down
`detector is.
` A. The term "power up/down detector"
`is similar to other terms that are used in
`the industry, in general, are used to
`determine when power is valid from one power
`supply.
` Q. Would you say that's a common term
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`in the field of electrical engineering?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. Some companies would use that
`term. Other companies would use a different
`term to describe, essentially, the same
`thing.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Referring back to Column 2, line
`17, the sentence we were looking at a few
`minutes ago, it says -- the '674 says,
`"substantial current leakage may occur in the
`power up/down detector 100 or in the POC 10."
` Do you remember that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you have an understanding of
`what the patent is referring to when it
`mentions "current leakage"?
` A. The term "leakage," in general,
`can be used to describe different types of
`leakage. In the background section of my
`report, I describe different types of
`leakage. In my opinion, in the '674, it's
`talking about subthreshold leakage.
` Q. And what is subthreshold leakage,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`Dr. Horst?
` A. That is current that flows through
`a transistor when its gate voltage is not yet
`at the threshold. So it's a small amount of
`current that flows through the transistor
`before the threshold is reached.
` Q. Would you generally say that's a
`good thing or a bad thing?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to the
`form.
` A. The leakage -- there are circuits
`that take advantage of that current that
`flows, so you can't say, in general, that
`it's a good or bad thing.
` Q. Do most circuit designs try to
`increase or decrease subthreshold leakage in
`a transistor?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. The subthreshold leakage in
`digital circuits, in general, is a bad thing
`and will cause increase power dissipation, so
`as long as we try to reduce the amount of
`subthreshold leakage.
` Q. And why does the subthreshold
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`leakage cause increased power in the circuit?
` A. In a CMOS circuit, at one logic
`level, the NMOS transistor is on, and when
`you're above the threshold, the PMOS
`transistor is on. But if the other
`transistor doesn't completely turn off, then
`you have a current path between the power
`supplies and that will cause extra power.
` Q. Is subthreshold leakage a problem
`in bipolar circuits?
` A. Bipolar transistors, generally,
`wouldn't call it subthreshold leakage, at
`least in my experience, because that's the
`linear region of a bipolar transistor and the
`region of operation that's used for
`amplifiers, for instance.
` Q. If you turn back to Column 2,
`Dr. Horst, starting at line 2 -- excuse me --
`I'm sorry -- line 16. No, I'm sorry. Column
`2, line 23. Let me know when you're there.
` A. Yes, I'm there.
` Q. Starting at Column 2, line 23,
`this '674 patent states, "When core power
`supply 103 is then powered up, M2 and M3
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`switch on, and M1 becomes very weak.
`However, before M1 can switch completely off,
`there's a period in which all three
`transistors within power up/down detector 100
`are on. Thus, a virtual short is created to
`ground causing a significant amount of
`current to flow from I/O power supply 104 to
`ground. This 'glitch' current consumes
`unnecessary power."
` Do you see that, Dr. Horst?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is "glitch current"?
` A. They're talking about a spike in
`current that would occur if all three
`transistors go on at the same time. That's
`sometimes called shoot through current.
` Q. The section we just read in the
`'674 patent talks about a virtual short.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is that?
` A. That's a way they're describing
`the case where you have a current path
`directly from the high voltage to the low
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`voltage. It's not actually a short, which
`would be a zero resistance connection, but it
`is a very low impedence connection.
` Q. And is that a good thing or a bad
`thing?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. That is not a good thing if you're
`trying to reduce the power consumption.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Have you heard of glitch current
`also being referred to as crowbar current?
` A. I have heard that term but that's
`not the term that I'm most familiar with for
`that.
` Q. Do you have an understanding of
`what "crowbar current" means?
` A. My understanding is that it would
`be referring to this current that's flowing
`when all the transistors are on, creating a
`current path directly from the power
`supply -- between the power supply and
`ground.
` Q. It sounds like the same thing as
`glitch current, correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. The patent is using that term
`"glitch current," but there are other
`situations when glitches can occur in the
`current. So I wouldn't say those -- I
`wouldn't call those synonymous terms.
` Q. Is glitch current the same thing
`as leakage current?
` A. They're not precise definitions
`for either of those terms here. You could
`say that they are related.
` Q. How so?
` A. Depending on how the thresholds of
`the transistors have been selected, you can
`have some threshold leakage that occurs,
`which is very high currents, and those high
`currents would cause a current glitch when
`the input passes through the threshold. So,
`in that case, those terms are related.
` Q. Can you turn back to your
`declaration, Dr. Horst, Apple 1003, and turn
`to page 41? Beginning at paragraph 85 your
`declaration and continuing on through
`paragraph 94, you provided an analysis of the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`Steinacker, S-t-e-i-n-a-c-k-e-r, correct?
` A. Yes, this is the overview of the
`Steinacker reference in my report.
` Q. If you turn to paragraph 91 of
`your report on page 85, you say, "As shown in
`Figure 1 (above), circuit arrangement 1
`includes a voltage detector 5," correct?
` A. Yes, that's what it says.
` Q. And in this paragraph, you're
`referring to Figure 1 of Steinacker, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And, specifically, you're
`referring to the version of Steinacker's
`Figure 1 that you have highlighted on page 44
`of your declaration, correct?
` A. Steinacker Figure 1 that's shown
`up there is the same as the Steinacker Figure
`1, and this illustration only has some
`highlighting to point out different aspects
`of Figure 1.
` Q. Did you add that highlighting to
`Figure 1, Dr. Horst?
` A. That question goes to the process
`of preparing the report, which I understand
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`is work product.
`(Exhibit 1005, U.S. Patent No. 7,279,943,
` previously marked.)
` Q. The court reporter is now handing
`you a copy of a document previously marked
`Apple 1005. Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes, this is the Steinacker
`reference that we were just speaking about.
` Q. The Steinacker patent is U.S.
`7,279,943, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what is the filing date of the
`Steinacker patent, Dr. Horst?
` A. This is filed on October 13th of
`2005.
` Q. Did you review the Steinacker
`patent in the course of preparing your
`declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how many times would you say
`you've read the Steinacker patent?
` A. Oh, several times.
` Q. If you turn to Column 4, line 45,
`Steinacker. Starting at Column 4, line 45
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`Steinacker describes the voltage level
`detector 5 in Figure 1, correct?
` A. Yes. It says "the second supply
`voltage equally contains a voltage level
`detector 5 which is coupled to the voltage
`level shifting unit 4."
` Q. And specifically, Dr. Horst, if
`you look at the fourth sentence of that
`paragraph, it says, "In the illustration, the
`voltage level detector 5 is in the form of a
`Schmitt trigger with an inverting output.
`However, it is likewise conceivable for the
`voltage level detector 5 to be in the form of
`an inverter circuit, a comparator circuit or
`comparable circuits."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Other than these two sentences,
`there's no other portion of Steinacker that
`tells you anything about the voltage level
`detector's structure, correct?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. No, that's not correct.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` Q. What else does Steinacker tell us
`about the structure of the voltage detector,
`other than those two sentences?
` A. In Figure 1 there's a drawing of
`element 5, is a symbol. Inside the symbol
`there is a histeresis diagram, a symbol which
`indicates that there's a preference for this
`element to exhibit histeresis, such as the
`histeresis of a Schmitt trigger.
` Q. What is a Schmitt trigger,
`Dr. Horst?
` A. A Schmitt trigger is a device that
`triggers at a different voltage level as the
`voltage is rising than it does when the
`voltage is falling. So it will actual trip
`it up. Higher voltage on the way up and a
`lower voltage on the way down.
` Q. One of the possibilities for the
`voltage level detector mentioned in
`Steinacker is an inverter circuit, correct?
` A. It says that it is conceivable for
`the voltage level detector to be in the form
`of an inverter circuit.
` Q. And what is an inverter circuit?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. An inverter circuit is one where a
`high level in the input produces a low level
`in the output, and a low -- on the input,
`produces a high on the output. Some
`inverters have histeresis and are called
`Schmitt triggers, also.
` Q. Does Steinacker provide any
`significant details about the type of
`inverter circuit that could be used as a
`voltage level detector?
` A. Steinacker shows this diagram, and
`the diagram to one of ordinary skill in the
`art, would tell them what type of circuit
`could be used for an inverter here.
` Q. How many types of inverter
`circuits were known in 2005, when Steinacker
`was filed?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by
`"types of inverter circuits."
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Is there only one type of inverter
`circuit?
` A. Inverters can be implemented with
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`different technologies and the transistors --
`types of transistors and the thresholds of
`transistors and so on can vary in order to
`produce the properties of an inverter.
` Q. I'm talking about different
`circuit designs for an inverter. How many
`circuit designs are there for an inverter
`circuit?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. I'm not sure how you define what
`is a design of a circuit. Every circuit has
`many parameters that have to be specified.
`So if that was the case, there's really no
`way to count them.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Well, if you were going to design
`an inverter circuit, would there only be one
`day to do it or would there be many ways to
`do it?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. The design would depend on the
`technology being used, for instance. So
`there would be different ways -- different
`technologies you could use to implement an
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`inverter circuit.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Would there be different circuit
`designs for an inverter circuit?
` A. There can be a few different ways
`of designing an inverter, by adding
`histeresis or not, for instance. But
`they're -- the overall function of the
`inverter would be the -- could be shown to be
`the same with small variations.
` Q. In the Steinacker patent, could
`any type of inverter be used for the voltage
`level detector 5 in Figure 1?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. Steinacker's text and figure
`suggests a strong preference for one that has
`histeresis, like a Schmitt trigger.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Would that be required in the
`Steinacker design?
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by
`required by a design.
` Steinacker is presenting a circuit
`here and it's not trying to define what is
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`required and what isn't required.
` Q. Would the Steinacker circuit shown
`in Figure 1 operate if the voltage level
`detector implemented as an inverter did not
`have histeresis?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. It would operate at some level,
`but it wouldn't provide some of the benefits
`that Steinacker says are important, such as
`reliability.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Can you turn to Column 4, line 56
`of Steinacker? Starting at Column 4, line
`56, Steinacker states, "In the exemplary
`embodiment shown, the voltage level detector
`sends a first control signal in the form of a
`voltage level at the level of the second
`supply voltage - that is to say a logic value
`'1' - to the voltage level shifting unit 4 if
`the first supply voltage is lower than any
`threshold value from the voltage level
`detector." (as read)
` Do you see that?
` A. I wasn't at the right line number.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 29
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`Where are you starting?
` Q. Column 4, line 56 through Column
`4, 61. Were you looking at the wrong
`document?
` A. Yes.
` Q. That can happen. So Column 4,
`line 56, through Column 4, line 61.
` A. Yes, I'm there.
` Q. With reference to Figure 1 of
`Steinacker, "The voltage level detector 5 is
`monitoring a supply voltage in the portion of
`the circuit within the box labeled 1.1 and
`generates a logic high or one output when the
`supply voltage falls below a threshold
`value"; is that correct?
` A. It generates a logic 1 value if
`the first supply voltage is lower than the
`threshold value from the voltage level
`detector 5.
` Q. If you could turn to Column --
`again, Steinacker -- excuse me -- Column 4,
`starting at around line 65. Steinacker
`states, "The first control signal is used to
`turn off the voltage level shifting unit 4,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 30
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`as a result of which the latter transmits a
`zero potential and hence a first deactivation
`signal to the circuit block 3." (as read)
` It goes on to state, "The second
`circuit block 3 is shut down if the first
`supply voltage is too low to ensure the
`operation of the respective supplied logic
`gates."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Here Steinacker is explaining that
`when the supply voltage gets too low to
`enable reliable operation, the voltage level
`detector causes the second circuit block 3 to
`be shut down; is that correct?
` A. That's not exactly what it says.
` Q. Is that how it operates?
` A. It says, "The second circuit block
`is shut down if the first supply voltage is
`too low to ensure the operation of the
`respectively supplied logic gates."
` Q. Are these portions of Steinacker
`referring to the steady state operation of a
`circuit?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 31
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by
`"steady state."
` Q. Do you know what "steady state"
`means?
` A. Well, in a portable device,
`circuits are continually being used and not
`used. So I'm not sure with respect to a
`portable device what you would consider to be
`steady state.
` Q. Well, are these portions of
`Steinacker referring to a transient
`operation?
` A. This is referring to detecting a
`specific voltage and operating based on that
`specific voltage. So I'm not sure what you
`mean by a "transient operation."
` Q. Something that changes.
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
` A. I still don't understand the
`question.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Does this section of Steinacker
`that describes the voltage level detector
`make any reference to leakage current?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 32
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
` A. There are portions of Steinacker
`that talk about the need for low power and
`that to one of ordinary skill would say that
`leakage should be reduced.
` Q. I was talking about the portions
`that we just read at Column 4 and going on to
`Column 5 that describe the operation of the
`voltage level detector. Do those portions of
`Steinacker refer to leakage current?
` MS. REICHEL: Objection to form.
`Feel free to give what you believe to be a
`complete answer to that question.
` A. That small passage does not
`directly describe leakage current but read
`with the entire reference, you would
`understand that an overall objective of the
`design is to reduce power, and that would
`imply reducing the leakage current.
`BY MR. COCHRAN:
` Q. Does that portion of Steinacker
`refer to glitch current?
` A. The glitch current, as described
`in the '674 patent, is a waste of current --
`is extra power dissipation and Steinacker is
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide - 877-702-9580
`
`
`
`CONFIDENTIAL
`
`Page 33
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PH.D.
`directed to circuits that reduce power
`dissipation for use in portable devices.
` Q. Okay. Can you turn to paragraph
`95, page 48 of your declaration, paragraph
`95. Beginning at paragraph 95 of your
`declaration and continuing through paragraph
`102, you provide an analysis of the Doyle
`patent, correct?
` A. This is a section describing the
`