John Villasenor - July 18, 2019
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _____________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _____________________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` V.
`
` QUALCOMM INCORPORATED,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _____________________
`
` Case IPR2018-01281
`
` Case IPR2018-01282
`
` Patent 8,768,865
`
` _____________________
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`
` JOHN VILLASENOR
`
` July 18, 2019
`
` Houston, Texas
`
`REPORTED BY: Linda Russell, CSR
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`APPLE 1026
`Apple v. Qualcomm
`IPR2018-01281
`
`1
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`
`
`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _____________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _____________________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` V.
`
` QUALCOMM INCORPORATED,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _____________________
`
` Case IPR2018-01281
`
` Case IPR2018-01282
`
` Patent 8,768,865
`
` _____________________
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`
` JOHN VILLASENOR
`
` July 18, 2019
`
` Houston, Texas
`
`REPORTED BY: Linda Russell, CSR
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`APPLE 1026
`Apple v. Qualcomm
`IPR2018-01281
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`1
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`John Villasenor - July 18, 2019
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`Page 2
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` JOHN VILLASENOR
`
` Thursday, July 18, 2019
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` 9:09 a.m.
`
` DEPOSITION OF JOHN VILLASENOR, produced as a
`
`witness at the instance of the PETITIONER, and
`
`duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
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`numbered cause on July 18, 2019, from 9:09 a.m.
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`to 12:40 p.m., before Linda Russell, CSR, in and
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`for the State of Texas, reported by machine
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`shorthand, at the offices of Norton Rose
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`Fulbright, 1301 McKinney, Suite 5100, Houston,
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`Texas, pursuant to any provisions stated on the
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`record or attached hereto.
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`John Villasenor - July 18, 2019
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`Page 3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`REPRESENTING THE PETITIONER:
` NOAH C. GRAUBART, ESQ.
` BAILE XIE, ESQ.
` Fish & Richardson
` 1180 Peachtree Street, NE
` 21st Floor
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` graubart@fr.com
`
`REPRESENTING THE PATENT OWNER:
` DANIEL LEVENTHAL, ESQ.
` Norton Rose Fulbright
` 1301 McKinney
` Suite 5100
` Houston, Texas 77010-3095
` daniel.leventhal@nortonrosefulbright.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Jackie Moran, Summer Associate
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`John Villasenor - July 18, 2019
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`Page 4
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` I N D E X
`
` Page
`EXAMINATION:
` BY MR. GRAUBART 5
` BY MR. LEVENTHAL 135
` BY MR. GRAUBART 136
`
` EXHIBITS MARKED
`
` No. Description Page
`
`Apple Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent Number 5
` 8,768,865
`
`Apple Exhibit 1005 Wang reference: A 79
` Framework of Energy
` Efficient Mobile Sensing
` for Automatic User State
` Recognition
`
`Apple Exhibit 1011 Louch U.S. Patent Number 114
` 8,676,224
`
`Apple Exhibit 1023 Declaration of John 24
` Villasenor in Qualcomm,
` Incorporated vs. Apple,
` Incorporated, Document
` 161-3
`
`Apple Exhibit 1024 Joint Claim Construction 67
` Hearing Statement
` Pursuant to Patent
` L.R 4.2. In Qualcomm
` Incorporated versus
` Apple Incorporated,
` Document 125
`
`Apple Exhibit 1025 Qualcomm Incorporated's 71
` Amended Patent L.R. 3.1
` and 3.2 Disclosures
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` P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
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` MR. GRAUBART: Noah Graubart with
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` Fish & Richardson on behalf of Petitioner Apple.
`
` And with me is Baile Xie also from Fish &
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` Richardson and Jackie Moran, one of the summer
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` associates.
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Daniel Leventhal,
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` Norton Rose Fulbright for Qualcomm.
`
` JOHN VILLASENOR,
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` having been first duly sworn, testified as
`
` follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. GRAUBART:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Villasenor.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. In front of you you should have three
`
` exhibits, and one of them is the '865 patent. I
`
` guess I should -- when I say the '865 patent, do
`
` you understand I'm referring to U.S. Patent
`
` Number 8,768,865?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` MR. GRAUBART: That's marked Apple
`
` 1001.
`
` (Apple Exhibit 1001 marked for
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` identification.)
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` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) And then you
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` should also have in front of you your
`
` Declarations from both the 2018-1281 IPR, which
`
` is Qualcomm Exhibit 2004, and your declaration
`
` from the 2018-1282 IPR, which is Qualcomm
`
` Exhibit 2005. Is that right?
`
` A. That appears to be the case, yes.
`
` Q. Okay. So I want to start, if I
`
` could, with your declaration in the 1282 IPR,
`
` Qualcomm Exhibit 2005. Although, to be fair, I'm
`
` going to ask you about one of your claim
`
` construction opinions which I believe is
`
` consistent across the two. So if there's an
`
` issue where you believe there's a distinction
`
` between the two declarations, could you let me
`
` know?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I want to start with your opinion
`
` regarding the proper construction of the term
`
` "Pattern," which I believe is set out in
`
` paragraph 37 of your report -- excuse me, of your
`
` declaration.
`
` A. Yeah.
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` Q. Now, is it correct that your opinion
`
` of the proper construction of "Pattern" is a
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` collection of one or more pairs of varying
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` parameters and corresponding parameter values, as
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` well as the relationship between each pair where
`
` the relationship may be implicit?
`
` A. Yes, that's what I believe is a full,
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` complete, specific construction as necessary
`
` here.
`
` Q. Okay. So I want to make sure I
`
` understand what is included with that. When --
`
` there seems to me there's three components. one
`
` is parameters, one or more of them. Is that
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` right?
`
` A. Well, you have to keep going and I'll
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` make sure --
`
` Q. Sure, okay. Second being parameter
`
` values for the one or more parameters. And then
`
` the third being the relationship between each
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` pair where that relationship may be implicit.
`
` A. Yeah, I mean, I think that's --
`
` depending on how that's interpreted, that's what
`
` I have in mind. I mean -- so, yeah, I think you
`
` have to have -- you have to tie if one parameter
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` is "motion state" then -- and a parameter value
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` is "driving," and you have to tie those two
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` together.
`
` Q. Okay. So that actually leads to my
`
` next question. So when you say, "tie those two
`
` together," that's the relationship you're talking
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` about in your construction?
`
` A. Right. So, for example, if one
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` parameter is "motion state" and another parameter
`
` is "temperature" and one parameter value is
`
` "driving" and another parameter is "73 degrees,"
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` obviously, you know, you're not saying that the
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` motion state is 73 degrees and the temperature is
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` driving. You have to make sure you have the
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` association between those two things. In other
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` words, you have to associate that the parameter
`
` value "driving" is tied to "motion state" and the
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` parameter value "73" is tied to "temperature,"
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` for example.
`
` Q. So the relationship between the --
`
` when you say between each pair, are we talking
`
` about the relationship between parameter and
`
` parameter value or are we talking about the
`
` relationship between pair of parameter and
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` parameter value and the other parameter and
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` parameter value?
`
` A. Well, you could have -- if there's a
`
` boolean connection, you'd also have both. So,
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` for example, if -- a pattern could be, you know,
`
` "motion state" is equal to "driving" and, you
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` know, "time of day" is equal to "day" and that
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` could be a different pattern than "motion state"
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` is equal to "driving" and "time of day" is equal
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` to "night," for example.
`
` Q. So let's take an example of a pattern
`
` that is where there's only one parameter and
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` parameter value, so, for example, a pattern where
`
` it's "motion state" equals "driving." You with
`
` me so far?
`
` A. Yeah.
`
` Q. Okay. Is there a relationship
`
` between each pair as described in your
`
` construction in that pattern?
`
` A. Well, the relationship in the sense
`
` that you know that the parameter value of the
`
` parameter "motion state" is "driving."
`
` Q. Okay. So it's really kind of -- your
`
` construction could have kind of up to four
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` components: you've got parameters; you've got
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` parameter values; you've got the relationship
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` between the parameter and its corresponding
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` value; and then you've also got, if there's
`
` multiple parameters, the relationship between
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` those parameters, those pairs?
`
` A. I'm not sure -- you may be making it
`
` more complicated than it needs to be. It's
`
` simply you've got one or more parameters and with
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` each you have associated a value. And of course
`
` you have to tie the parameter value to the
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` appropriate parameter. If there's more than one
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` parameter, you have more than one parameter
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` value. And then there can be, you know, boolean
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` constructs relating the different pairs.
`
` Q. Right. So I think you just described
`
` there are two different relationships. You have
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` to tie the parameter value to the appropriate
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` parameter, and then if there's more than one
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` parameter there could be boolean constructs
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` relating to different pairs?
`
` A. There can be, yeah.
`
` Q. Yeah. So depending on the kind of
`
` pattern, you may have two different kinds of
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` relationships within the pattern?
`
` A. Again, that's your characterization
`
` that there's two different kinds of
`
` relationships, but my testimony is it is what it
`
` is. You can construct boolean -- you can imagine
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` a pattern that involves boolean constraints
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` across multiple parameters and their associated
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` parameters values.
`
` Q. And in the scenario where there are
`
` multiple parameters and parameter values within a
`
` pattern, your construction of "Pattern" would
`
` require that it would include those boolean
`
` connectors?
`
` A. To the extent that that was called
`
` for in a particular system of interest.
`
` Q. Well, I'm talking about the system
`
` that's defined in the '865 claims.
`
` A. Yeah, I --
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. You know, I'm certainly aware of
`
` boolean constructs. I haven't considered why
`
` where you might not want to have a boolean
`
` construct. I'd have to give that some more
`
` thought. But it would certainly include when you
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` have a boolean relationship among multiple
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` parameters.
`
` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) Sure. And I don't
`
` mean to suggest that the relationship is limited
`
` only in a way to boolean connectors. I'm just
`
` using that as your example of one when you have
`
` two different pairs of parameter and parameter
`
` values, that the relationship between those two
`
` pairs might be a boolean connector.
`
` Let me make sure, just before I leave
`
` this. I want to go to paragraph 38 of your
`
` declaration and you give an example of a pattern
`
` where -- that says "location X AND motion state
`
` Y." Do you see that?
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. Okay. So in that example, we have in
`
` your opinion a parameter location and a parameter
`
` value X is one pair?
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. Okay. And then another pair is
`
` Motion -- parameter Motion State, parameter
`
` value Y?
`
` A. That's right.
`
` Q. And one relationship that is in this
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` pattern is the boolean connector "and" between
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` those two pairs?
`
` A. That is a relationship, yeah.
`
` Q. And then you are -- if I understood
`
` your earlier testimony, another relationship
`
` within this pattern is the relationship between
`
` location and X and the relationship between
`
` motion state and Y?
`
` A. Well, the fact that X is the value
`
` for location and Y is the value for motion state.
`
` And just -- you know, just in light
`
` of your question, I mean, that's -- I think
`
` that's why I gave this longer, more -- this claim
`
` construction here, because, you know, as I
`
` explain in paragraph 37, "a collection of one or
`
` more parameter values," that alone means what I
`
` think we've just been -- what I've just been
`
` saying. But to the extent that, you know, the
`
` record has indicated that other people might
`
` think differently, that's why I gave this more
`
` detailed construction here.
`
` Q. So given the -- what we were just
`
` talking about using the example in paragraph 38,
`
` when you say in your construction "the
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` JOHN VILLASENOR
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` relationship" -- well, never mind. Strike that.
`
` So now going back to your
`
` construction, you say it's a collection of one or
`
` more pairs. And obviously it goes on. I'm not
`
` saying that's your whole construction, but I want
`
` to focus on the phrase "collection of one or more
`
` pairs." I want to make sure I understand what
`
` you mean by "one or more."
`
` So in your opinion, a pattern could
`
` include only a single pair of parameter and its
`
` corresponding parameter value; is that correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. So, for example, using the example in
`
` paragraph 38 of your declaration, a pattern could
`
` be location X?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And if that's the pattern, is there a
`
` relationship present?
`
` A. Well, the relationship that the X is
`
` the value corresponding to the parameter or the
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` variable location.
`
` Q. Okay. But it doesn't include a
`
` relationship between another pair of parameter
`
` and parameter values because there isn't another
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` pair?
`
` A. Well, yeah, if there's only one pair,
`
` then there can't be a relationship with another
`
` pair within that pattern.
`
` Q. Okay. In the '865 patent, which I
`
` believe you have before you as Apple
`
` Exhibit 1001, I'd like to look at an example
`
` pattern that you had cited to in paragraph 38 of
`
` your declaration at column 13, line 8. So 13.
`
` So, again, this example, it says, "To
`
` illustrate, with a logical operator being
`
` unknown, for example" -- let me rephrase.
`
` An example pattern that you pointed
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` to in your declaration found in this column 13 is
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` "location X AND motion state Y," correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. With that example pattern,
`
` does the '865 specification describe the system
`
` of the '865 patent taking any action as a result
`
` of identifying that pattern?
`
` A. I don't recall.
`
` Q. Sitting here, you don't have --
`
` sitting here today, you can't point to me
`
` anything in the specification where the
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`Page 16
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` '865 patent describes an action that is taken as
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` a result of identifying that pattern of "location
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` X AND motion state Y"?
`
` A. Well, that implies that I'm unable to
`
` do so. My answer means that, you know, it's got,
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` I don't know, twenty -- twenty or so columns of
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` text and I haven't memorized the text. I
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` don't -- and that's -- you've pointed me to one
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` particular example of "Pattern" and asked whether
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` it used that particular example of pattern
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` elsewhere, essentially, in the specification. I
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` haven't memorized it. I am certainly capable of
`
` answering the question if I have time to review
`
` the spec and look for it, but from memory I can't
`
` answer that. I don't know.
`
` Q. Let me ask you a different way.
`
` Would you agree with me that there are some
`
` patterns in the '865 patent that the
`
` specification does not describe as resulting in
`
` some sort of action being taken, whether it's
`
` that's example or not?
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. Again, I -- before agreeing with you
`
` that something is not disclosed, I'd want to
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`Page 17
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` JOHN VILLASENOR
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` review the patent to see if that's indeed the
`
` case. I don't recall.
`
` Q. Well, is it your opinion that every
`
` time a pattern is identified in the '865 patent,
`
` that an action is taken as a result?
`
` A. Again, I don't recall. I'm
`
` uncomfortable without having reviewed it
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` specifically in response to that question making
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` an affirmative statement that there is no action
`
` ever or that there always is an action. I would
`
` have to review it.
`
` Q. Okay. Go ahead and review it,
`
` please.
`
` A. So, I'm sorry, just to understand the
`
` scope of the review, it's to -- there's two
`
` different questions. One is whether whenever a
`
` pattern -- is it the case that there are some
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` patterns that are disclosed that for which no
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` action is taken, and is it the case --
`
` alternatively, is it the case that for every
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` single pattern disclosed, there is an action
`
` taken? Is that -- I want to understand.
`
` Q. Whichever answer is easier --
`
` whichever question is easier to answer, I'll take
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` that answer. I think they are binary. I think
`
` it's either one or the other, but --
`
` A. Well, I mean, you can imagine that --
`
` well...
`
` (Document review.)
`
` A. So Figure 4 is an example of
`
` identifying first pattern and then taking action.
`
` And as a description of Figure 4, I was looking
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` at the top of column 15, but it -- it's not only
`
` there, I think, but it's some of the relevant
`
` text is at the top of column 15.
`
` Q. And what's the action that is taken?
`
` A. Well, there's -- you can see it in
`
` Figure 4, box 406 recites "identifying a first
`
` pattern." And then the next step in the chart is
`
` box 408, which is an action.
`
` Q. Okay. So that's one example of one
`
` taking an action, but I think my question was
`
` different: Are there examples where it doesn't
`
` take an action?
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. I guess the only way to do that would
`
` be to go through the spec and enumerate every
`
` example of a pattern identified here and then
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` reach one of those -- so to make it short, it
`
` says whether an action is taken or not taken. If
`
` you want me to do that, I can.
`
` Q. Well, let's focus back on my original
`
` line of questions on column 13, the pattern of
`
` "location X AND motion state Y" described at
`
` line 10. When that pattern is identified, does
`
` the '865 patent describe an action taken as a
`
` result of identifying that pattern?
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. Well, the paragraph that ends at
`
` column 13, line 13, is describing the pattern.
`
` And then I don't know if elsewhere in the spec --
`
` I don't recall whether it describes an action in
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` association with that pattern. I simply don't
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` recall.
`
` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) Can you take a
`
` look and tell me?
`
` A. Well, the caveat is going to be that
`
` I'm not -- I always wonder when -- when they're
`
` going to allow people like me to actually have an
`
` electronic version during the depo. It seems a
`
` waste of everyone's time for me to have to do a
`
` manual by eye search of this thing, but I will do
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` it.
`
` (Document Review)
`
` A. So based on just essentially
`
` skimming, I didn't see a specific example of
`
` "location X AND motion state Y" recited after
`
` column 13, line 10. But, again, the caveat
`
` obviously is that I did it quickly and, you know,
`
` with the naked eye, which is not the most
`
` efficient way to search a dense document.
`
` Q. And where -- and in column 13,
`
` there's not a discussion of an action being taken
`
` as a result of identifying a pattern of location
`
` X and motion state Y, correct?
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. Well, I think it's a question of --
`
` there is a discussion of actions taken at the
`
` result of identifying patterns, and column 13
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` can -- provides an example of the pattern. So in
`
` that sense, the layered text, you know,
`
` column 14, for example, you know, does talk about
`
` actions. But the question, as I understood it,
`
` is whether it specifically recites those words,
`
` "location X AND motion state Y," and I didn't see
`
` those recited after line 10 in column 13.
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` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) I think my
`
` question was a little different. So you said
`
` that you didn't see the "location X AND motion
`
` state Y" after column 13, line 10, so I want to
`
` focus on the time when you do see it and do you
`
` see anything describing an action taken as a
`
` result of identifying it.
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. Again, it's -- that's -- it's a bit
`
` of a confusing question because, I mean, there
`
` are sort of two ways to answer -- two ways to
`
` understand the question. If the question is
`
` meant does the patent specifically describe using
`
` the same words, "location X AND motion state Y"
`
` taking an action, I don't recall seeing that in
`
` my brief skim that I just did a moment ago.
`
` But the patent does subsequent to
`
` column 13, line 13 or 10, talk about taking an
`
` action after having identified a pattern and in
`
` column 13 provides "location X AND motion state
`
` Y" as an example of a pattern. So in that sense,
`
` I think it does describe taking an action in
`
` relation to taking a pattern, of course including
`
` the examples that it provides.
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` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) Is it your opinion
`
` that in the context of the '865 patent that every
`
` identification of a pattern results in taking an
`
` action?
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. I haven't offered that opinion. I
`
` haven't offered that opinion at all.
`
` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) So that's no?
`
` A. It's not a no, it's that I haven't --
`
` there's a claim which certainly requires a set of
`
` steps, but I haven't analyzed the '865 patent
`
` with a view towards analyzing whether it
`
` discloses things that are different. You know,
`
` taking pieces of the claim and certain elements
`
` and throwing out certain other elements and
`
` seeing if it describes doing exactly what that
`
` modified claim would be, I haven't done that
`
` analysis.
`
` Q. So you're not able to tell me today
`
` whether it's your opinion that every pattern
`
` described in the '865 patent results in an action
`
` being taken?
`
` A. That's a different question. I don't
`
` really understand -- you said -- you started off
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` with "so," but then the question, I think, was
`
` different than the thing that you preceded it
`
` with, so I'm not sure which question you're
`
` asking.
`
` Q. What word can I clarify?
`
` A. If you can just ask a clean question,
`
` I can try.
`
` Q. Are you able to tell me today whether
`
` it's your opinion that every pattern described in
`
` the '865 patent results in an action being taken?
`
` MR. LEVENTHAL: Form.
`
` A. Again, it depends on what you mean
`
` by -- it depends what you mean by every pattern
`
` results in an action being taken. If you -- if
`
` you view the list of patterns that are provided
`
` as examples of patterns, which the patent says
`
` they are, and then you read the section of the
`
` patent which describes taking an action, then in
`
` that sense, yes, you can make that connection.
`
` But I don't see anything in the patent which --
`
` if we put aside the claims, there's nothing
`
` stopping someone from identifying a pattern and
`
` then not taking further action.
`
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
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` You're aware that Qualcomm and Apple
`
` were engaged in a patent infringement lawsuit in
`
` a district court in California?
`
` A. I think there are actually multiple
`
` such matters, but at least one, yes.
`
` Q. And in at least one of them you
`
` offered a declaration in support of Qualcomm's
`
` claim construction positions?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` MR. GRAUBART: Okay. I'm going to
`
` ask the court reporter to mark this as Apple
`
` Exhibit 1023.
`
` (Apple Exhibit 1023 marked for
`
` identification.)
`
` Q. (BY MR. GRAUBART) And,
`
` Dr. Villasenor, is that exhibit that the court
`
` reporter just handed you the declaration that you
`
` mentioned a moment ago?
`
` A. I haven't looked at all the pages,
`
` but it appears to be.
`
` Q. Okay. Can I ask you to turn to
`
` paragraph 115, which is on page 53.
`
` A. I'm sorry, page?
`
` Q. Page 53, paragraph 115.
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`Page 25
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And maybe just stepping back to ask a
`
` broader question. Am I correct that in the
`
` section that spans from paragraph 99 through 115,
`
` you offer opinions related to the construction of
`
` terms in the '865 patent?
`
` A. I don't recall what paragraph it
`
` would have started at, but just based on looking
`
` at the section heading that would appear to be
`
` the case, but I haven't read the paragraphs just
`
` now.
`
` Q. And in paragraph 115, you write,
`
` "Thus, it is my opinion that the terms
`
` "condition" and "pattern" in the '865 patent
`
` claims are definite and should be given their
`
` plain and ordinary meaning." Did I read that
`
` correctly?
`
` A. You did.
`
` Q. Okay. And in the previous paragraph,
`
` paragraph 114, is it -- you describe in the final
`
` sentence that, "One skilled in the art would
`
` appreciate that a condition or event -- excuse
`
` me -- "that a condition is an event or occurrence
`
` relating to a user, whereas a pattern is a
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` particular or distinct collection of parameter
`
` values that may correspond to the detected
`
` condition."
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. Did I read that correctly?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. I think I have no further
`
` questions about that document. Actually, before
`
` I go, let me ask you this. When you were
`
` providing your opinion on claim construction in
`
` the district court case in this declaration
`
` that's Exhibit 1023, what standard were you
`
` applying in rendering a claim construction
`
` opinion?
`
` A. Well, I believe the standard would
`
` have been the Phillips standard, which was
`
` appropriate -- or is appropriate for district
`
` court litigation of patent claims.
`
` Q. And what standard are you applying in
`
` these IPRs that are -- in which you're offering
`
` the opinions in your declarations Qualcomm
`
` Exhibit 2004 and 2005?
`
` A. I believe that is stated in the legal
`
` understandings. My
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