Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _____________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _____________________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` V.
`
` QUALCOMM INCORPORATED,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _____________________
`
` Case IPR2018-01279
`
` Patent 7,844,037
`
` _____________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.
`
` Austin, Texas
`
` August 30, 2019
`
` 9:00 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`
`Micheal A. Johnson, RDR, CRR
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`Exhibit 1017
`Apple v. Qualcomm
`IPR2018-01279
`
`1
`
`
`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _____________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _____________________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` V.
`
` QUALCOMM INCORPORATED,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _____________________
`
` Case IPR2018-01279
`
` Patent 7,844,037
`
` _____________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.
`
` Austin, Texas
`
` August 30, 2019
`
` 9:00 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`
`Micheal A. Johnson, RDR, CRR
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`Exhibit 1017
`Apple v. Qualcomm
`IPR2018-01279
`
`1
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 2
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.,
`
`produced at the instance of the Petitioner, in the
`
`above-styled and numbered cause on the 30th day of
`
`August, 2019, at 9:00 a.m., before Micheal A.
`
`Johnson, RDR, CRR, Notary Public in and for the
`
`State of Texas, reported by realtime stenographic
`
`means, at the offices of Baker Botts, LLP, 98 San
`
`Jacinto Boulevard, Suite 1500, Austin, Texas,
`
`pursuant to Notice of Oral Deposition, and in
`
`accordance with the Code of Federal Regulations.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`1 2 3 4 5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`2
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER
`APPLE INC.:
` Sara C. Fish
` Thad C. Kodish
` FISH & RICHARDSON PC
` 1180 Peachtree Street, NE, 21st Floor
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` (404) 892-5005
` sfish@fr.com
` tkodish@fr.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER
`QUALCOMM INCORPORATED:
` Brian W. Oaks
` BAKER BOTTS LLP
` 98 San Jacinto Boulevard, Suite 1500
` Austin, Texas 78701
` (512) 322-5470
` brian.oaks@bakerbotts.com
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`3
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 4
`
` INDEX
` KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.
` August 30, 2019
`
` APPEARANCES 3
`
` PROCEEDINGS 6
`
`EXAMINATION OF KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.:
`
` BY MS. FISH 6
`
` REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 67
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5 6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`4
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 5
`
` DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
` KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.
` August 30, 2019
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED
`
` Exhibit 1001 United States Patent 22
` 7,844,037 B2,
` Nov. 30, 2010
`
` Exhibit 1004 United States Patent 47
` 6,301,338 B1,
` Oct. 9, 2001
`
` Exhibit 1006 United States Patent 53
` Application Publication
` 2003/0104827 A1, Jun. 5,
` 2003
`
` Exhibit 1016 Excerpt from Newton's 41
` Telecom Dictionary
`
` Exhibit 2004 Declaration of Kevin 7
` Jeffay, Ph.D.
`
` Exhibit 2005 Curriculum Vitae, Kevin 17
` Jeffay
`
` Exhibit 2023 Excerpts from Merriam 42
` Webster's Collegiate
` Dictionary, Tenth Edition
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`5
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`09:00:36
`
`09:00:36
`
`09:00:36
`
`09:00:36
`
`09:00:39
`
`09:00:39
`
`09:00:42
`
`09:00:47
`
`09:00:48
`
`09:00:50
`
`09:00:51
`
`09:00:54
`
`09:00:57
`
`09:01:04
`
`09:01:05
`
`09:01:08
`
`09:01:17
`
`09:01:17
`
`09:01:18
`
`09:01:18
`
`09:01:19
`
` PROCEEDINGS
`
` KEVIN JEFFAY, Ph.D.,
`
`called as a witness, having been duly sworn by a
`
`Notary Public, was examined and testified as
`
`follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. FISH:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Jeffay.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. My name is Sara Fish. I'm here on behalf
`
`of petitioner, Apple, and will you please state your
`
`full name for the record.
`
` A. It's Kevin Jeffay.
`
` Q. And have you been deposed before?
`
` A. I have.
`
` Q. I'm going to hand you Paper 26, which is
`
`your deposition notice filed in this case. Have you
`
`seen this document before?
`
` A. I have not.
`
` Q. I'll give you a moment to review it.
`
` (Witness reviews document.)
`
` A. Okay.
`
`BY MS. FISH:
`
` Q. So do you understand that this document
`
`notices your deposition in the IPR petition matter
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`6
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 7
`
`09:01:24
`
`09:01:31
`
`09:01:32
`
`09:01:34
`
`09:01:36
`
`09:01:42
`
`10:17:53
`
`10:17:53
`
`09:01:51
`
`09:01:51
`
`09:01:55
`
`09:01:55
`
`09:02:00
`
`09:02:04
`
`09:02:05
`
`09:02:06
`
`09:02:09
`
`09:02:15
`
`09:02:21
`
`09:02:23
`
`09:02:28
`
`09:02:32
`
`09:02:34
`
`09:02:37
`
`09:02:41
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`number IPR2018-01279?
`
` A. That's what it appears to be.
`
` Q. And are you prepared to provide testimony
`
`today regarding the declaration you have submitted
`
`on US patent number 7,844,037?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 2004 marked for
`
`identification.)
`
`BY MS. FISH:
`
` Q. I'm now handing you Qualcomm
`
`Exhibit 2004.
`
` A. Thank you.
`
` Q. Have you seen this document before?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What is it?
`
` A. This appears to be a copy of a
`
`declaration that I submitted in this matter.
`
` Q. So before we dive into the details of
`
`your declaration today, I know you said you've been
`
`deposed before, but just a few reminders. I'll ask
`
`questions and I just ask that you wait until I'm
`
`finished asking before you provide your answer, and
`
`I will provide you the same courtesy of when you are
`
`answering the questions. Please make your responses
`
`verbal for the court reporter who's here today. And
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`7
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 8
`
`09:02:46
`
`09:02:48
`
`09:02:52
`
`09:02:55
`
`09:02:55
`
`09:02:56
`
`09:03:04
`
`09:03:07
`
`09:03:07
`
`09:03:18
`
`09:03:20
`
`09:03:29
`
`09:03:29
`
`09:03:30
`
`09:03:32
`
`09:03:35
`
`09:03:36
`
`09:03:36
`
`09:03:53
`
`09:03:55
`
`09:03:59
`
`09:04:03
`
`09:04:06
`
`09:04:09
`
`09:04:11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`if you need a break at any time, please let me know
`
`and we can take a break, but I just ask that there
`
`is no question pending before we take a break. Is
`
`that all right?
`
` A. That sounds fine.
`
` Q. Is there any reason you cannot provide
`
`true, truthful, accurate and complete testimony here
`
`today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. So if you'll turn with me in your
`
`declaration, Exhibit 2004, at page 3, or
`
`paragraph 2.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. You state, "I have been retained as a
`
`technical expert on behalf of Patent Owner
`
`Qualcomm."
`
` Is that correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. So Dr. Jeffay, could you tell me a little
`
`bit about your educational background, please.
`
` A. Sure. I have an undergraduate degree in
`
`mathematics from the University of Illinois, a
`
`master's degree in computer science from the
`
`University of Toronto and a Ph.D. in computer
`
`science from the University of Washington.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`8
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 9
`
`09:04:13
`
`09:04:15
`
`09:04:15
`
`09:04:18
`
`09:04:20
`
`09:04:20
`
`09:04:24
`
`09:04:27
`
`09:04:27
`
`09:04:27
`
`09:04:37
`
`09:04:37
`
`09:04:41
`
`09:04:44
`
`09:04:46
`
`09:04:49
`
`09:04:51
`
`09:04:52
`
`09:04:57
`
`09:05:02
`
`09:05:05
`
`09:05:08
`
`09:05:13
`
`09:05:16
`
`09:05:19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q. And when did you receive your bachelor's
`
`degree?
`
` A. 1982.
`
` Q. And when did you receive your master's
`
`degree?
`
` A. 1984.
`
` Q. And it's a master's degree of computer
`
`science --
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. -- in 1984? When did you receive your
`
`Ph.D.?
`
` A. 1989.
`
` Q. For your Ph.D., what was your area of
`
`focus or your thesis topic?
`
` A. It was realtime operating systems.
`
` Q. Can you tell me a little bit about
`
`realtime operating systems?
`
` A. Sure. At that time, the field was
`
`described as this class of operating systems that
`
`have to interact with or control processes in the
`
`external -- in the world external to the computer.
`
`So whereas a normal interactive, what were then
`
`called timesharing operating systems, if the
`
`operating system was slow or it didn't provide an
`
`immediate response, the user just waited. And when
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`9
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 10
`
`09:05:22
`
`09:05:25
`
`09:05:27
`
`09:05:29
`
`09:05:34
`
`09:05:36
`
`09:05:39
`
`09:05:42
`
`09:05:45
`
`09:05:48
`
`09:05:50
`
`09:05:54
`
`09:05:58
`
`09:06:01
`
`09:06:04
`
`09:06:06
`
`09:06:08
`
`09:06:12
`
`09:06:15
`
`09:06:17
`
`09:06:20
`
`09:06:24
`
`09:06:29
`
`09:06:34
`
`09:06:38
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`the computer was ready to deal with the next input,
`
`it dealt with the next input.
`
` Realtime operating systems are ones where
`
`the process in the external environment will not
`
`wait or cannot wait. So as a result, the operating
`
`system has to generate its responses in a time frame
`
`that's defined by the processes in the external
`
`environment, typically if you're trying to control
`
`these processes. And so for these processes, you
`
`can think of things like equipment, mechanical
`
`devices. So the mechanical devices require control
`
`signals or inputs to be generated at a very -- in
`
`very precise time windows, so there are notions of
`
`timing constraints that have to be met in order for
`
`the system to be considered correct.
`
` So a realtime operating system is one
`
`that is designed to generate outputs that will
`
`satisfy timing constraints that are defined by these
`
`processes in the external environment.
`
` Q. Do these realtime systems have any
`
`applications in mobile communication devices?
`
` A. They do. In today's devices, most
`
`everything in the device occurs in the software.
`
`For example, the radios in there that control the
`
`transmission of voice and data are software radios.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`10
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 11
`
`09:06:43
`
`09:06:48
`
`09:06:52
`
`09:06:56
`
`09:06:59
`
`09:07:01
`
`09:07:03
`
`09:07:08
`
`09:07:10
`
`09:07:13
`
`09:07:20
`
`09:07:22
`
`09:07:25
`
`09:07:29
`
`09:07:32
`
`09:07:37
`
`09:07:39
`
`09:07:51
`
`09:07:54
`
`09:07:57
`
`09:07:58
`
`09:07:59
`
`09:08:01
`
`09:08:05
`
`09:08:08
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`And so they require precise realtime control. And
`
`so most smartphones have a small software subset
`
`that acts as a small realtime operating system, to
`
`allow you to control the radio and other components
`
`of the phone.
`
` Q. Okay. Were you working on applications
`
`of the realtime system in mobile computing devices
`
`around 1989?
`
` A. So mobile computing didn't exist as a
`
`field in 1989. So what I was working on there were
`
`actually systems that moved. So one of the systems
`
`that I worked on was what is today known as the
`
`International Space Station. So it did move, but
`
`it's not mobile in the sense that we use that term
`
`today. So I was focused on larger systems, mostly
`
`related to avionics.
`
` Q. Okay. So I see you are also a teacher, a
`
`professor at the University of North Carolina in the
`
`areas of computer networks and distributing systems;
`
`is that correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Can you tell me a little bit about the
`
`computer network classes that you've taught at UNC?
`
` A. I've taught a variety of networking
`
`classes. Currently the one I teach is just an
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`11
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 12
`
`09:08:11
`
`09:08:15
`
`09:08:19
`
`09:08:22
`
`09:08:25
`
`09:08:29
`
`09:08:32
`
`09:08:35
`
`09:08:40
`
`09:08:43
`
`09:08:47
`
`09:08:49
`
`09:08:51
`
`09:08:54
`
`09:08:56
`
`09:09:02
`
`09:09:05
`
`09:09:05
`
`09:09:06
`
`09:09:08
`
`09:09:13
`
`09:09:16
`
`09:09:17
`
`09:09:20
`
`09:09:23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`intro -- introductory course called Internet
`
`protocols and services. It's just an introductory
`
`undergraduate course for computer science majors.
`
` Q. Would that course cover information
`
`relating to mobile telecommunications devices?
`
` A. It does. Part of what we try and get the
`
`students to understand is the distinction between
`
`the Internet as a packet network and the public
`
`switch network, what's called the PSTN, and the
`
`cellular networks as circuit-switched networks.
`
` Q. And how long have you been teaching that
`
`course or a course similar to it?
`
` A. Well, I've taught -- as I say, I've
`
`taught several courses in network and that's just
`
`the one I'm teaching now. I've been teaching
`
`courses in networking pretty much since I started at
`
`UNC.
`
` Q. And when was that?
`
` A. 1989.
`
` Q. Can you give me an example of some of the
`
`courses you were teaching at UNC around 1989 or in
`
`the early '90s?
`
` A. So in the early '90s, it was primarily
`
`focused on distributed systems. So the -- what then
`
`we called network programming, how you design
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`12
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 13
`
`09:09:27
`
`09:09:34
`
`09:09:37
`
`09:09:40
`
`09:09:44
`
`09:09:45
`
`09:09:50
`
`09:09:53
`
`09:09:56
`
`09:09:57
`
`09:10:06
`
`09:10:08
`
`09:10:13
`
`09:10:17
`
`09:10:21
`
`09:10:24
`
`09:10:27
`
`09:10:29
`
`09:10:33
`
`09:10:36
`
`09:10:38
`
`09:10:41
`
`09:10:43
`
`09:10:46
`
`09:10:48
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`applications that will run over a network. So today
`
`think of them as client server-type applications; so
`
`how you distribute function in a distributed system
`
`and how you manage trade-offs between computation
`
`and communication.
`
` Q. Okay. Were there any courses that you
`
`taught in the early '90s at UNC that specifically
`
`dealt with early stages of mobile telecommunication
`
`devices?
`
` A. Not really. I mean, so mobile computing,
`
`as I sort of view it, didn't really kind of come
`
`into existence until around the mid-1990s. So we
`
`certainly were talking about issues of mobile
`
`computing, in the sense of how do you take a device
`
`that operates on one network and allow it to migrate
`
`to another network and allow it to work on that
`
`network.
`
` Q. So then starting around the mid-'90s or
`
`mid-to-late '90s, were you then teaching courses
`
`that dealt specifically with mobile
`
`telecommunication devices and mobile
`
`telecommunication networks?
`
` A. So mobile telecommunications networks
`
`didn't really exist then. This was just mobile
`
`computing, which literally meant you have a device,
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`13
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 14
`
`09:10:51
`
`09:10:55
`
`09:10:58
`
`09:11:01
`
`09:11:03
`
`09:11:10
`
`09:11:12
`
`09:11:16
`
`09:11:19
`
`09:11:23
`
`09:11:29
`
`09:11:32
`
`09:11:38
`
`09:11:39
`
`09:11:43
`
`09:11:45
`
`09:11:47
`
`09:11:50
`
`09:11:52
`
`09:11:53
`
`09:11:58
`
`09:12:03
`
`09:12:05
`
`09:12:08
`
`09:12:12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`like a laptop, how can you use your laptop on -- how
`
`can you work in an environment here like Baker Botts
`
`and then go back to wherever you're from and allow
`
`that network -- allow that laptop to work just as
`
`well as it did here. So this was more TCP/IP
`
`networking.
`
` The cellular world, you know, was very --
`
`was nowhere near as developed as it is today, and in
`
`particular, for example, data services were
`
`primitive to nonexistent in the early to mid-1990s.
`
` Q. Have you taught courses at UNC that focus
`
`specifically on mobile telecommunication devices,
`
`cell phones, as we kind of know them today?
`
` A. They're part of courses that I teach, but
`
`they're not the -- they would be a component of the
`
`courses, but they're not -- we don't have a course
`
`on mobile tele- -- I don't know really if any
`
`university has a course on mobile telecommunications
`
`devices.
`
` Q. Sure. When did you first start teaching
`
`those courses that would include or would cover
`
`mobile telecommunications devices?
`
` A. It's hard to say, because, you know, it
`
`was just this slow progression in evolution of
`
`topics. I think we were probably talking about
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`14
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 15
`
`09:12:18
`
`09:12:24
`
`09:12:27
`
`09:12:31
`
`09:12:34
`
`09:12:37
`
`09:12:39
`
`09:12:42
`
`09:12:44
`
`09:12:49
`
`09:12:52
`
`09:12:56
`
`09:13:01
`
`09:13:05
`
`09:13:06
`
`09:13:13
`
`09:13:13
`
`09:13:16
`
`09:13:19
`
`09:13:23
`
`09:13:27
`
`09:13:27
`
`09:13:27
`
`09:13:35
`
`09:13:38
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`devices like PDAs. So PDAs, as they originally
`
`existed, were not considered telecommunication
`
`devices; but they would have wireless interfaces,
`
`but not cellular, and eventually they had cellular
`
`and then you had this integration of phones and
`
`PDAs.
`
` So we think -- I think, you know, in
`
`terms of the devices that we were focused on, it
`
`started with laptops and then it moved to what today
`
`we'd call PDAs; and then from there it moved to
`
`devices that were these integrated PDAs and cell
`
`phones. So I would say it was kind of a continual
`
`slow evolution probably starting around the
`
`mid-1990s.
`
` Q. And then I think I understand -- strike
`
`that.
`
` I see in your declaration that you've
`
`also directed a variety of research projects that
`
`include working on user interface design, mobile
`
`computing and network operating systems; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. When would -- when can you remember first
`
`supervising research projects that were related to
`
`mobile computing?
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`15
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 16
`
`09:13:46
`
`09:13:50
`
`09:13:53
`
`09:13:57
`
`09:14:01
`
`09:14:06
`
`09:14:08
`
`09:14:16
`
`09:14:19
`
`09:14:23
`
`09:14:27
`
`09:14:30
`
`09:14:33
`
`09:14:36
`
`09:14:41
`
`09:14:46
`
`09:14:49
`
`09:14:52
`
`09:14:54
`
`09:14:57
`
`09:15:01
`
`09:15:05
`
`09:15:07
`
`09:15:07
`
`09:15:23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Well, we got a large grant in 1990, I
`
`think it was, '90 or '91, and it lasted about
`
`five years. And towards the end of that grant, we
`
`were then working with companies to try and
`
`integrate what today, I guess would be called mobile
`
`computing devices, into the systems that we built.
`
`So probably '94, '95.
`
` Q. And when can you remember first working
`
`on a research project related mainly to user
`
`interface designs in mobile computing?
`
` A. Well, the research was not focused on
`
`user interfaces. We had to -- we designed and built
`
`user interfaces to make the systems work, but that
`
`was not the focus of the research. All the systems
`
`we built required design and implementations of user
`
`interfaces. And if you're asking specifically about
`
`mobile computing devices, again, that probably would
`
`have started around '94, '95.
`
` Q. Okay. So the projects you were working
`
`on around the mid-'90s, '94, '95, they would have
`
`also implicated and required you to work on user
`
`interfaces and graphical user interfaces; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I see also that you're the named inventor
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`16
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 17
`
`09:15:26
`
`09:15:30
`
`09:15:34
`
`09:15:38
`
`09:15:38
`
`10:17:53
`
`10:17:53
`
`09:16:06
`
`09:16:06
`
`09:16:08
`
`09:16:24
`
`09:16:25
`
`09:16:26
`
`09:16:27
`
`09:16:32
`
`09:17:09
`
`09:17:14
`
`09:17:17
`
`09:17:23
`
`09:17:27
`
`09:17:30
`
`09:17:33
`
`09:17:36
`
`09:17:38
`
`09:17:40
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`on four US patents related to computer networking.
`
`Do any of those four patents deal with aspects of
`
`graphical user interfaces on mobile computing
`
`devices?
`
` A. No.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 2005 marked for
`
`identification.)
`
`BY MS. FISH:
`
` Q. I'm going to hand you what's been marked
`
`as Qualcomm Exhibit 2005. Have you seen this
`
`document before?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What is it?
`
` A. This is a copy of my vitae.
`
` Q. So if you'll look with me at page 4,
`
`where it says, "Conference Program Chair," and that
`
`lists several items under Conference Program Chair.
`
` A. Okay. I'm there.
`
` Q. So it says that you served as the
`
`conference program chair for the Tenth International
`
`Workshop on Network and Operating Systems Support
`
`for Digital Audio and Video, in Chapel Hill in June
`
`of 2000; is that right?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Can you tell me a little bit about this
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`17
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 18
`
`09:17:42
`
`09:17:44
`
`09:17:47
`
`09:17:50
`
`09:17:57
`
`09:18:02
`
`09:18:08
`
`09:18:12
`
`09:18:15
`
`09:18:18
`
`09:18:21
`
`09:18:24
`
`09:18:27
`
`09:18:30
`
`09:18:33
`
`09:18:36
`
`09:18:48
`
`09:18:48
`
`09:18:51
`
`09:18:54
`
`09:18:58
`
`09:19:02
`
`09:19:06
`
`09:19:09
`
`09:19:12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`general subject matter that was discussed at that
`
`conference?
`
` A. Well, it's pretty much what the title
`
`indicates. It's a research workshop where research
`
`papers are presented; and the general scope of the
`
`workshop is research on network and operating system
`
`support for digital audio and video. And so by
`
`2000, the name was starting to get a little old.
`
`It's a name that had -- was started back in around
`
`'91 or so, but you can think of it as essentially
`
`streaming media; so network and operating system
`
`support for streaming media and the use of audio and
`
`video generally in computer systems.
`
` Q. You said the name dates back to 1991.
`
`Were you involved with this conference back to 1991?
`
` A. Yes. It's either '90 or '91. I don't
`
`remember exactly.
`
` Q. So is it fair to say that you've been
`
`involved in teaching and research and conference
`
`work with your colleagues in the field of networking
`
`systems and mobile computing since the early '90s?
`
` A. Well, again, just to be precise, I don't
`
`view mobile computing systems as something that
`
`was -- in hindsight, we might say that that's true;
`
`but in the early 1990s, you know, "mobile computing"
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`18
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 19
`
`09:19:17
`
`09:19:20
`
`09:19:20
`
`09:19:25
`
`09:19:29
`
`09:19:31
`
`09:19:36
`
`09:19:39
`
`09:19:43
`
`09:19:46
`
`09:19:46
`
`09:19:48
`
`09:19:51
`
`09:19:54
`
`09:19:58
`
`09:20:02
`
`09:20:07
`
`09:20:31
`
`09:20:33
`
`09:20:40
`
`09:20:47
`
`09:20:52
`
`09:20:56
`
`09:21:01
`
`09:21:03
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`weren't just words -- were words you just didn't
`
`hear.
`
` So as I say, there was -- as devices
`
`evolved, as the industries evolved, the research
`
`evolved with it. So certainly I had been involved
`
`in audio and worked with audio and video and in
`
`particular digital audio and video across a wide
`
`variety of devices since the early 1990s, and around
`
`the mid-1990s, that certainly included mobile
`
`devices.
`
` Q. I understand. So is it fair to say,
`
`then, that you've been involved in teaching and
`
`research work and conference research with your
`
`colleagues in the field that developed into what we
`
`now refer to as mobile computing and mobile
`
`networking systems, dating back to the early '90s?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. If you'll turn back in your
`
`declaration, this is Qualcomm Exhibit 2004; I'm
`
`looking at paragraph 55, which is on page 17.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Does paragraph 55 reflect the level of
`
`ordinary skill in the art that you applied in
`
`providing your opinions offered in the declaration
`
`at Exhibit 2004?
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`19
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 20
`
`09:21:04
`
`09:21:06
`
`09:21:10
`
`09:21:13
`
`09:21:15
`
`09:21:19
`
`09:21:23
`
`09:21:24
`
`09:21:34
`
`09:21:36
`
`09:21:40
`
`09:21:44
`
`09:21:47
`
`09:21:50
`
`09:21:52
`
`09:21:53
`
`09:21:55
`
`09:22:00
`
`09:22:03
`
`09:22:19
`
`09:22:23
`
`09:22:34
`
`09:22:37
`
`09:22:42
`
`09:22:45
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And I will note, so the paragraph begins,
`
`"I understand that petitioner asserts that a POSITA
`
`would have had" -- and it goes on to recite the
`
`standard. Do you offer any different or alternative
`
`level of ordinary skill in the art definition apart
`
`from petitioners?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. And so if we look at the specific
`
`requirements of a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art here, the first one, in paragraph 55, reads, a
`
`master's of science degree in an academic area,
`
`emphasizing electrical engineering, computer
`
`engineering, computer science or an equivalent
`
`field.
`
` And I believe you indicated earlier that
`
`you had achieved a master's of computer science in
`
`1984, which would meet this requirement, correct?
`
` A. I believe that's correct.
`
` Q. And if we look at the alternative level
`
`offered here, it requires a bachelor's degree with
`
`two or more years of experience under the wireless
`
`communication and networking systems. But I
`
`understand your bachelor's degree was in
`
`mathematics; is that right?
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`20
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 21
`
`09:22:46
`
`09:22:49
`
`09:22:54
`
`09:22:56
`
`09:22:59
`
`09:23:12
`
`09:23:14
`
`09:23:17
`
`09:23:20
`
`09:23:24
`
`09:23:27
`
`09:23:32
`
`09:23:35
`
`09:23:38
`
`09:23:43
`
`09:23:45
`
`09:23:45
`
`09:23:48
`
`09:23:51
`
`09:23:57
`
`09:24:01
`
`09:24:06
`
`09:24:19
`
`09:24:21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. So you would qualify under the standard
`
`offered in the first part of the level of ordinary
`
`skill in the art definition here in paragraph 55, is
`
`that correct, rather than the second?
`
` A. Sure. I mean, I note that the standard
`
`also says that additional education in a relevant
`
`field or experience may compensate for deficits. So
`
`I think between the first one and the experience I
`
`have, I would qualify under the second one as well.
`
` Q. Okay. Sure. And so that's fair, that
`
`your extensive additional experience in the field
`
`that we were just discussing that dates back to the
`
`early '90s, all of that would qualify you under the
`
`additional experience, in your opinion; is that
`
`right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And just looking quickly back at
`
`paragraph 53. So do you understand that the
`
`relevant time frame for the inquiry of the level of
`
`ordinary skill in the art is 2005, when the
`
`'037 patent was filed?
`
` A. That's what it says here. Somehow I
`
`thought I had a slightly different date in mind.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`21
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 22
`
`10:17:53
`
`10:17:53
`
`09:24:33
`
`09:24:33
`
`09:24:36
`
`09:24:44
`
`09:24:44
`
`09:24:45
`
`09:24:46
`
`09:24:50
`
`09:24:52
`
`09:24:56
`
`09:25:02
`
`09:25:05
`
`09:25:07
`
`09:25:10
`
`09:25:13
`
`09:25:17
`
`09:25:21
`
`09:25:27
`
`09:25:30
`
`09:25:32
`
`09:25:34
`
`09:25:46
`
`09:25:49
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 1001 marked for
`
`identification.)
`
`BY MS. FISH:
`
` Q. I'm handing you what's been marked
`
`Exhibit Apple 1001. Have you seen this document
`
`before?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What is it?
`
` A. This appears to be a copy of what we've
`
`been calling the '037 patent.
`
` Q. Yes. And that's fair. For the record,
`
`so the patent at issue here is US patent 7,844,037,
`
`which as you've said, we'll agree to call the
`
`'037 patent for short; is that okay?
`
` A. That's fine.
`
` Q. And so do you see on the cover of the
`
`'037 patent, when was this patent filed?
`
` A. This says it was filed August 8th, 2005.
`
` Q. So do you understand that that is the
`
`relevant time frame, August 8th, 2005, for defining
`
`the level of ordinary skill in the art relevant to
`
`the -- your opinions offered in this declaration?
`
` A. I guess so.
`
` Q. So as we were just discussing, you had
`
`achieved your master's of science degree in 1984,
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`22
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 23
`
`09:25:54
`
`09:25:57
`
`09:25:57
`
`09:25:58
`
`09:26:00
`
`09:26:04
`
`09:26:05
`
`09:26:10
`
`09:26:14
`
`09:26:17
`
`09:26:21
`
`09:26:21
`
`09:26:23
`
`09:26:26
`
`09:26:32
`
`09:26:35
`
`09:26:38
`
`09:26:42
`
`09:26:48
`
`09:26:52
`
`09:26:59
`
`09:27:01
`
`09:27:04
`
`09:27:07
`
`09:27:12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`which was substantially before 2005; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. I don't -- I don't mean to --
`
` A. That's fine. It's a factually true
`
`statement.
`
` Q. Several years before 2005. And looking
`
`at the second prong of the level of ordinary skill
`
`in the art as well, you had achieved many years of
`
`experience in the field prior to 2005; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. So as of 2005, you had actually
`
`achieved more expertise and more experience than is
`
`required here in paragraph 55; is that correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. And so when you were providing your
`
`analysis offered in the declaration here, how did
`
`you account for your extraordinary expertise that
`
`you had as of 2005, versus what a mere ordinary
`
`person of skill in the art would have understood as
`
`of 2005?
`
` A. Well, given my advantage point of being
`
`an academic in higher education, I had been working
`
`with -- directly with and training and educating
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`23
`
`
`
`Kevin Jeffay, Ph.D. - August 30, 2019
`
`Page 24
`
`09:27:16
`
`09:27:19
`
`09:27:22
`
`09:27:26
`
`09:27:30
`
`09:27:33
`
`09:27:36
`
`09:27:40
`
`09:27:42
`
`09:27:44
`
`09:27:47
`
`09:27:51
`
`09:27:54
`
`09:27:55
`
`09:27:59
`
`09:28:03
`
`09:28:07
`
`09:28:11
`
`09:28:13
`
`09:28:17
`
`09:28:20
`
`09:28:22
`
`09:28:55
`
`09:28:58
`
`09:29:02
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`persons who would become -- who either were or would
`
`become persons of ordinary skill in the art
`
`according to these definitions, for about 15 years.
`
`So I was well aware of who they were, what their
`
`backgrounds were, what they likely knew, what they
`
`likely didn't know, what they were capable of doing
`
`and what they were likely capable of not doing.
`
` And so viewed through that lens of that
`
`experience of directly working with these people,
`
`teaching them, training them, educating them, I
`
`think I was able to apply the understanding that a
`
`person of ordinary s
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
