Deposition of:
`Prof. Majid Sarrafzadeh
`
`July 24, 2019
`
`In the Matter of:
`Google LLC Vs. Cywee Group LTD
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800.808.4958 | calendar-dmv@veritext.com |
`
`
`Prof. Majid Sarrafzadeh
`
`July 24, 2019
`
`In the Matter of:
`Google LLC Vs. Cywee Group LTD
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800.808.4958 | calendar-dmv@veritext.com |
`
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`________________________________
`
`GOOGLE, LLC,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v. Case No.
`
`CYWEE GROUP LTD., IPR2018-01257
`
` Patent Owner. IPR2018-01258
`
`________________________________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PROF. MAJID SARRAFZADEH
`
`DATE: Wednesday, July 24, 2019
`
`TIME: 8:22 a.m.
`
`LOCATION: Veritext Legal Solutions
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` 611 Anton Boulevard, 5th Floor
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` Costa Mesa, CA 92626
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`REPORTED BY: Henry Steinbroner, Notary Public
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`JOB No.: 3451115
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`Page 2
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`O N B E H A L F O F P E T I T I O N E R :
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` M A T T H E W A . S M I T H , E S Q U I R E
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` S m i t h B a l u c h L L P
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` 1 1 0 0 A l m a S t r e e t , S u i t e 1 0 9
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` M e n l o P a r k , C A 9 4 0 2 5
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` s m i t h @ s m i t h b a l u c h . c o m
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` ( 2 0 2 ) 6 6 9 - 6 2 0 7
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`O N B E H A L F O F P A T E N T O W N E R :
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` M I C H A E L S H O R E , E S Q U I R E
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` S h o r e C h a n D e P u m p o L L P
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` 9 0 1 M a i n S t r e e t , S u i t e 3 3 0 0
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` D a l l a s , T X 7 5 2 0 2
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` m s h o r e @ s h o r e c h a n . c o m
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` ( 2 1 4 ) 5 9 3 - 9 1 1 4
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`A L S O P R E S E N T :
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` A r i B . R a f i l s o n , S h o r e C h a n D e P u m p o L L P
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` C e c i l K e y , D i M u r o G i n s b e r g P . C .
`
` A r l e n P a p a z i a n , D i M u r o G i n s b e r g P . C .
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`
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` I N D E X
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`EXAMINATION: PAGE
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` By Mr. Shore 5
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`Page 3
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` E X H I B I T S
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`NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 1 List of Cases as Expert Witness 12
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`Exhibit 2 Claims Construction Order 271
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`Exhibit 3 Bachmann Dissertation 189
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`Exhibit 1001 Ye 438 Patent 150
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`Exhibit 1002 Majid Sarrafzadeh Declaration 30
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`Exhibit 1004 Bachmann Patent 29
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`Exhibit 1017 Patent Document 214
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`Exhibit 1018 Rebuttal Report 31
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` (*Exhibits attached.)
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` QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
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` PAGE LINE
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`Page 4
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` COURT REPORTER: Good morning. My name
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`is Henry Steinbroner; and I am the reporter from
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`Veritext. And we are now on the record.
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` This is the proceeding -- this is the
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`deposition of Professor Majid Sarrafzadeh taken in the
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`matter of Google LLC versus CyWee Group Ltd. This
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`proceeding is being digitally reported at 8:22 a.m. on
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`July 24, 2019 at 511 Anton Boulevard, 5th Floor,
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`Costa Mesa, California 92626.
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` The parties agree that the record of this
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`proceeding is being captured via high-quality digital
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`audio. Please note that the microphones are sensitive
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`to touch, whispering and cell phones. We will remain on
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`the record until all parties agree to go off the record.
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` At this time will everyone in attendance,
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`including those attending remotely, please identify
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`themselves for the record [sic]?
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` THE WITNESS: Majid Sarrafzadeh.
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` MR. SMITH: Matthew Smith, Smith
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`Baluch LLP for the Petitioner, Google.
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` MR. PAPAZIAN: Arlen Papazian, DiMuro
`
`Ginsberg for Patent Owner.
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` MR. KEY: Cecil Key, DiMuro Ginsberg for
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`Patent Owner CyWee.
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`Page 5
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` MR. RAFILSON: Ari Rafilson from Shore
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`Chan DePumpo on behalf of Patent Owner.
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` MR. SHORE: Michael Shore, the one who
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`needs all the help for Patent Owner.
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` COURT REPORTER: Will you please raise
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`your right hand.
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`WHEREUPON,
`
` PROF. MAJID SARRAFZADEH,
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`called as a witness, and having been first duly sworn to
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`tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
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`truth, was examined and testified as follows:
`
` THE WITNESS: I do.
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` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. SHORE:
`
` Q Mr. Sarrafzadeh, my name is Michael Shore; and
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`I'm here representing CyWee Group which is defending
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`itself against an attack on its patents by Google LLC.
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`Do you basically understand who I am and what I'm doing
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`here?
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` A I basically do.
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` Q Okay.
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` A And I prefer Dr. Sarrafzadeh or Professor
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`Sarrafzadeh, please.
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` Q Is that something important to you?
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` A In this formal matter, it is.
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` Q Okay. So what do you prefer, professor or
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`Page 6
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`doctor?
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` A You pick.
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` Q You're of doctor of what?
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` A I have a PhD in computer engineering,
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`electrical engineering and computer science. Doctor of
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`philosophy is what PhD stands for.
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` Q Okay. And what are you a professor of?
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` A I'm a professor of computer science and
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`electrical engineering.
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` Q Okay. Okay. Well, Mr. Sarrafzadeh, you have
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`before you Exhibit Number -- or actually, it's it paper
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`number 31. That's the Notice of Deposition by which
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`you're appearing today. Have you seen paper number 31
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`before?
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` A I have, although I don't think this is the
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`latest version of the Notice of Deposition.
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` Q Okay. What do you view your role here today?
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` A I have written a declaration recently, and I
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`understand my role is to answer any question that you
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`may have in regard to my declaration.
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` Q But you understand that your role is to assist
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`the board in coming to a decision on whether or not the
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`CyWee patents are valid, the 978 patent and the 438
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`patent?
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`Page 7
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` A That's sounds right.
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` Q Okay. And are you here to represent any
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`party?
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` A I've been hired by Google.
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` Q But when were you hired by Google?
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` A Google or their attorneys. I want to say
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`approximately a year and a half ago or so. Don't
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`remember the exact date.
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` Q Well, this is July of 2019.
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` A Right.
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` Q So you think you were hired around January of
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`2018?
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` A Do you have the date of my first declaration?
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`That may help me form the dates. Where I signed it on
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`the last page.
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` Q So that would have been June of 2018. That's
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`only a year ago.
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` A So then it does sound right that it would have
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`been maybe late 2017 or early 2018.
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` Q What do you mean by "late 2017?"
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` A Maybe the fall quarter of '17 or the winter
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`quarter, meaning between January or so of 2018. I don't
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`recall the exact timeframe.
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` Q All right. So it could have been anywhere
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`from October of 2017 through January of 2018?
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` A Even beyond that. I don't know the exact
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`timeframe right now, but roughly in that timeframe.
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`Could have been even earlier than October. I really
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`doubt that it would have been later than January of
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`2018.
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` Q Who hired you?
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` A I guess, how do you define -- the person who
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`hired me or --
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` Q Who is paying you? Where do you receive your
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`money? Who send -- who writes -- who signs the check?
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` A I don't know. I don't look at the signature
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`of the check. But I do submit my bills to Smith &
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`Baluch.
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` Q And that's a law firm?
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` A That is a law firm.
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` Q All right. Well, do -- when were you first
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`contacted to be an expert witness in the Google IPRs?
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` A The same timeframe that I mentioned to you,
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`late '17. Sometime in the second part of '17 -- 2017 or
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`perhaps very early on 2018. I don't remember.
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` Q Who contacted you?
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` A The very first contact I had was by a
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`person -- I believe her name was -- and I could be wrong
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`in the exact name, but I believe somebody named
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`Ms. Alan, A-L-A-N. But I could be wrong in the spelling
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`Page 9
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`of that. And I believe she's from O'Melveny & Myer.
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` Q And you think that would have been sometime
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`between October or so of 2017 up to January of 2018?
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` A Yeah, second half of '17 or very early '18.
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` Q Did she tell you this -- is it Ms. Alam? Is
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`that her last name, first name?
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` A I think that's her last name.
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` Q All right.
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` A But again, I -- it's been a while and I never
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`had contact with her after that, so I could be wrong in
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`the spelling or even the pronunciation.
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` Q Tell me what you remember about that contact.
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`By phone, was it in person?
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` A It was a phone conversation, yes.
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` Q All right. How did this person from O'Melveny
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`& Myers find you?
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` A I did not --
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` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I did not ask her.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q You didn't ask?
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` A That how did she find me?
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` Q Yeah.
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` A No.
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` Q Like, why are you calling me?
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` A Oh, that's a different question. How you find
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`and why you're calling me is a different question.
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`So --
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` Q Well, tell me everything you recall about that
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`conversation.
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` MR. SMITH: I'm going to object on the
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`basis of privilege and tell you not to reveal the
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`communications with Ms. Alam directly. You can answer
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`the question otherwise.
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` THE WITNESS: So the contact said there
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`is a case, I believe, involving Google and CyWee. And
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`would you be interested in learning more about it.
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`Something to that effect. If I remember correctly, it
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`was a rather brief phone call.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q And you never asked -- this I believe was
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`Mishima Alam.
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` A That sounds right, yeah.
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` Q All right. And Ms. Alam, when she contacted
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`you, did she tell you that she represented Google?
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` A I don't recall that.
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` Q All right.
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` A It's been a while.
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` Q All right. So the only thing you can recall
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`about this conversation is that Ms. Alam asked you if
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`you'd be interested in reviewing a case between CyWee
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`and Google?
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` A That sounds about right.
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` Q Did she tell you it was an IPR?
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` A I don't remember if, in that first
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`conversation, she did reveal it was an IPR or not.
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` Q All right. Did she tell you who -- but you
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`say you don't even remember if she told you who she
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`represented?
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` A She did mention that she's representing
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`Google. But more details on that, I don't think she
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`revealed much of it.
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` Q She tell you the subject matter?
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` A This is a conversation that took place at
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`least I would say a year and a half ago. I don't
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`remember if she did mention, in that first conversation,
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`the subject matter.
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` Q Have you ever worked for Google before or on a
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`case on behalf of Google before?
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` A A legal case?
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` Q Yes.
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` A I don't believe I have.
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` Q I'm going to show you what we're going to mark
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`as Exhibit 1 to your deposition. Can you -- this is a
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`list of places where your name shows up as being an
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`expert witness.
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` (Exhibit 1 was marked for
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` identification.)
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` A Okay.
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` Q And I notice that, on your CV, you don't list
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`any work as an expert witness. That's Google document
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`number 1003. You don't list any work as an expert
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`witness on your CV. Why is that?
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` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: The curriculum vitae is
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`related to my scholarly activities, my publication.
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`Some version of it have my grants and conferences that I
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`have presented in. There are students that I have
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`supervised and other things that you see on my
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`curriculum vitae. And that's the standard for forming a
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`curriculum vitae, so that's the reason.
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` MR. SHORE: All right. I'm going to
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`object to all of that as nonresponsive.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q Why does your work as an expert witness --
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`your extensive work as an expert witness not appear on
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`your curriculum vitae?
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` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q Why did you leave that off?
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`Page 13
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` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: My work as an expert
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`witness, normally in our field, is not included in
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`curriculum vitas. That's the standard.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q Well, I've been doing this for 30 years. I've
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`never seen it left off.
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` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q So what standard are you talking about?
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` A What the common practice is among academics
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`and researchers and professors. And I've been doing it
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`for 35 years.
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` Q You've been expert witnessing for 35 years?
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` A I've been a faculty member for 32 plus years.
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` Q All right. So you're also an expert witness
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`in a case on behalf of Huawei, correct?
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` A Let's see. Is that part of the same thing
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`here? Is that part of the same proceedings?
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` Q No.
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` A I don't believe Huawei has contacted me.
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` Q All right. So you've never been hired by
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`Huawei to be an expert witness?
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` A Unless it's all part of this current
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`proceeding and, indirectly, I might. I don't believe
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`that I've been -- which case are you referring to?
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` Q Let me just back up a minute. What other law
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`firms besides O'Melveny & Myers have you discussed the
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`CyWee case with, either in person or in a conference
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`call or?
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` A Smith & Baluch.
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` Q No other?
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` A No other.
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` Q Have you been given -- let's talk about
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`written communications. Have you been given questions
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`or comments on any of your declarations or reports, from
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`any law firms other than O'Melveny & Myers and Smith &
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`Baluch?
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` A Repeat that question.
`
` Q Have you received or seen any communications
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`from any other law firms regarding the CyWee patents?
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`In other words, emails, memos, questions that they
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`wanted addressed, questions they had about your
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`declarations, anything like that from any other law
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`firms?
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` A Not directly that I recall.
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` Q All right. What about indirectly?
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` A I wouldn't know. If somebody asked me a
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`question that they received from another law firm, and
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`they did not disclose that it's from another law firm, I
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`wouldn't know one way or another.
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` Q Well, obviously you can't answer what you
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`don't know. I agree.
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` A That's exactly what I said.
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` Q Okay. So have you any -- have you ever
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`represented or been an expert for Google prior to these
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`CyWee IPRs?
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` A I don't believe I have. Although there has
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`been some cases where multiple companies were involved,
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`and maybe Google had a part in them. But I don't
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`recall, and I don't believe so.
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` Q What about Apple? Have you ever been a
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`witness for Apple?
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` A I have been an expert witness for Apple, yes.
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` Q And that's actually -- is that still ongoing?
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`'Cause the date I have for your declaration is March of
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`2018.
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` A There is a case with Apple that's still
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`ongoing. That's correct.
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` Q And that's one where you were also hired to
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`attack the validity of patents that were being asserted
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`against Apple, correct?
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` A Say that again.
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` Q In other words, you were hired as an expert to
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`challenge -- help Apple challenge the validity of
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`patents that were being asserted against Apple, correct?
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` A I was hired to be a scientist in that case,
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`and provide frank scientific analysis.
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` Q To do what? What was the purpose of your
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`being hired to provide scientific analysis?
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` A To analyze certain patents.
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` Q That you found to be anticipated or obvious,
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`correct?
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` A That was not why I hired. That might have
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`been the conclusion that I came up with. But your
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`question was, were you hired to do certain thing, and
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`that I disagree with. I was hired to give a frank
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`scientific assessment of certain patents and the
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`corresponding prior arts.
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` Q Well, what I'm getting at is, in all of these
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`cases where you have been hired to give your scientific
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`opinion -- Fitbit, Apple, Amazon, Apple again -- every
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`single time you've ever been hired as an expert witness,
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`you've always reached the conclusion that the patent is
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`invalid.
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` A You're absolutely incorrect.
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` Q All right. Where did you -- where were you
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`hired to be an expert witness where you found a
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`patent or you gave the opinion that a patent was valid?
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` A For example, in a case related to Mentor
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`Graphics and Synopsis, just as an example. And there
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`are probably others.
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` Q Well, I've got that one in the list. That was
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`back in 2014. I mean, I'm sorry. No, that's Atop and
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`Synopsis. You've been a -- you've been an expert for
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`Synopsis twice, right?
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` A Incorrect.
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` Q Well, how many times?
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` A For Synopsis, zero times.
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` Q I mean, Mentor Graphics.
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` A There were -- there were multiple cases -- and
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`I'm not sure if this is the right legal term -- under
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`the same umbrella.
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` Q All right. Have you ever, in your career as
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`an expert witness, been hired by a firm to give an
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`expert opinion, and given that firm an expert opinion
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`that they did not accept, that did not support their
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`side?
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` A Repeat your question.
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` Q All right. So you've been hired by several
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`companies to be an expert witness.
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` A I have.
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` Q Have you ever been hired by a company to be an
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`expert witness, and given them an opinion that they did
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`not find to be consistent with what they wanted?
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` A In a number of cases, in early discussion with
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`the companies, I have given opinion that is not what
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`they wanted to hear. If that's what you're asking, yes.
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` Q Who were those companies?
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` A Those cases, they did not hire me. So I need
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`to check with them whether I can reveal that or not.
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` Q Of course you can. We have a protective order
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`in this case.
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` MR. SMITH: We don't actually.
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` MR. SHORE: Huh?
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` MR. SMITH: We don't yet.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q Well, I'm entitled to this information, 'cause
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`I'm going to check and see if you ever gave anybody an
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`opinion that's contrary to what they hire you for.
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` MR. SMITH: I'm sure you are entitled to
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`that information. There's nobody here to claim the
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`privilege, but it seems like it would be privileged to
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`me.
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` THE WITNESS: I'd be happy to check with
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`those attorneys --
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q Well, no. We don't have time for that. So
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`I'm asking you the question. Are you refusing to answer
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`the question?
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` A I'm giving you the question, that the
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`information they told me might be confidential, and
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`don't think it's right to them. It's ethical for me to
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`reveal that information without checking with them.
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` Q It's not ethical for you to reveal who tried
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`to hire you?
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` A And the discussion that we have, because I
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`already told you somewhat the context of the discussion.
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`So I'm not sure if it's ethical.
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` Q So are you refusing to answer the question
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`about whether or not you've ever -- you're refusing to
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`name any law firm or any company that's ever tried to
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`hire you to which you gave an opinion that was
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`unfavorable to them?
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` MR. SMITH: I think you're correct in
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`doing that, Majid.
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` THE WITNESS: Sorry.
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` MR. SMITH: I think you're correct in
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`doing that.
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` MR. SHORE: Are you instructing him not
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`to answer the question?
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` MR. SMITH: I don't know the matters, but
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`I think he's correct in doing it.
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` MR. SHORE: Are you -- so you're not
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`instructing him not to answer the question?
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` MR. SMITH: No.
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` MR. SHORE: All right.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q So you can answer the question.
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` MR. SMITH: No he can't. If he doesn't
`
`want to, he can't. I mean --
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` MR. SHORE: That's not how depositions
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`work. You don't get to just answer --
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` MR. SMITH: It's privileged, Mike.
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` MR. SHORE: What privilege? There's been
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`no --
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` MR. SMITH: He's talking about --
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` MR. SHORE: There's been no establishment
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`of a privilege.
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` MR. SMITH: He's talking about an opinion
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`he gave to counsel or to somebody who wanted to hire him
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`in confidence apparently. What's --
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` MR. SHORE: Prove it's in confidence.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
`
` Q Did you sign an NDA with these people?
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` A I don't believe I hired -- I signed an NDA.
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` Q All right. If you didn't sign an NDA, then
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`you're under no obligation not to tell me what was
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`talked about. So what companies or law firms tried to
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`hire you where you gave them an opinion that they did
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`not find favorable to their client or their case?
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` A I believe that's confidential information.
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`I'm not willing to reveal that.
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` Q Why do you believe it's confidential if they
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`didn't make you sign an NDA?
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` A Because we had a discussion. I don't know how
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`legal proceedings work, so the minimum I can do is to
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`check with them to understand my legal rights in that
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`respect, and then I'll be happy to share --
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` Q How many?
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` A I would say there has been three or four of
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`them at least.
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` Q Three or four over what period of time?
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` A In the past 10 years or so.
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` Q All right. Any in the last five years where
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`you --
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` A Probably two or three in the past five years.
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`Just as a point of reference, I do get calls from law
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`firms once a month or so. And obviously most of them I
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`don't take the work with them.
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` Q Well, as a matter of -- you have a -- there's
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`a limited amount of time you have, right?
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` A Right. And some of it has to do with exactly
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`what I discuss. I'll tell them my opinion. They
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`possibly don't like my opinion or what they heard, and
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`they decide not to hire me.
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` MR. SHORE: I'll let -- I'll object to
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`all of that as nonresponsive.
`
` Q 'Cause I don't know who you're talking about.
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`Okay. So you won't tell me who you've ever turned down
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`as a client, as an expert witness, based upon the
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`merits. Okay. How much do you charge by an hour -- by
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`the hour?
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` A Where, when?
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` Q In this case, how much have you charged by the
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`hour?
`
` A In this case, my hourly rate is my customary
`
`hourly rate, which is $650.
`
` Q And how many hours have you spent to date?
`
` A From the start?
`
` Q Yeah, since last -- anywhere from October to
`
`January to today.
`
` A I have to go back and check. I don't recall
`
`the exact or the precise number of hours that I've
`
`worked on this case.
`
` Q Give me an estimate.
`
` A I'd like to be precise there, and I don't have
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`that number handy.
`
` Q How much have you charged?
`
` A I don't have that number handy.
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` Q More than $100,000?
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` A I do not have that number handy. I don't know
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`Page 23
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`the exact or approximate amount --
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` Q $200,000?
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` MR. SMITH: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: What I can tell you how
`
`much I worked approximately in the June timeframe
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`because that's recent and I do recall that.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
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` Q Well, okay. How much in June?
`
` A I roughly spent about 20 hours or so, give or
`
`take, in the month of June of 2019.
`
` Q All right. So that's about $12,000 or so?
`
` A I believe your math.
`
` Q Has it been about 12,000 a month since the --
`
`for the last 18 months?
`
` A There has been many months that I did not work
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`on this case.
`
` Q All right. So you don't know -- were there
`
`some months where it was more than $20,000 -- or
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`$12,000?
`
` A I haven't memorized my invoices. I cannot
`
`answer that right now.
`
` Q What percentage of your income -- 'cause
`
`you're involved in a lot of cases. So what percentage
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`of your income comes from being an expert witness?
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` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: My expert witness work
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`varies. Some months are busier. Some months are less.
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`There are years where close to zero percent of my income
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`comes as an expert witness. There are years that it's
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`10 percent of it. So I have to go on average that --
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`BY MR. SHORE:
`
` Q 2018, how much money did you make as an expert
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`witness?
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` A I do not have that number handy.
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` Q What's your salary as a professor at UCLA?
`
` A It varies. It's embarrassing to say I don't
`
`exactly remember. I would say anywhere between
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`250-260,000 to 310-320,000 year.
`
` Q All right. So if you're making 12,000 a month
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`on one of the many cases you're involved in, you'd agree
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`with me that's a significant percentage of your income?
`
` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I did not say that I'm
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`making 12,000 on every case, so I do not agree with you.
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`BY MR. SHORE:
`
` Q Well, you're involved in a lot of cases. So
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`what I'm trying to figure out is if you make -- let's
`
`say you take the high end of your range, $300,000 a year
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`for -- at UCLA. And if you're making, on one of the
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`many cases you're involved in, $12,000 in a given month,
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`I think you said for the record that you think maybe, in
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`the past, 10 percent of your income had come from being
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`an expert witness. That's clearly not true because, in
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`one month, you made five percent of your income on one
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`case. So you want to revisit your estimation of how
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`much you make as an expert witness?
`
` MR. SMITH: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: What I did say -- and you
`
`misquoted me -- was that there has been years that I've
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`made 10 percent of my income as an expert witness.
`
`BY MR. SHORE:
`
` Q There's also been years where you've made more
`
`money as an expert witness than as a professor, correct?
`
` A I do not recall that. I'll be happy to go and
`
`visit that.
`
` Q You don't know?
`
` A I'm not sure.
`
` Q All right. Have you ever testified at a
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`trial?
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` A I have testified at trials, correct.
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` Q And how many trials have you testified at?
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` A That doesn't include Markman hearings, right?
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` Q No, that --
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` A Just actual trial?
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` Q Markman, in court. How many times have you
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`testified in court?
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` A I believe three times, although I need to
`
`double check.
`
` Q And --
`
` A And this is ever, right?
`
` Q And who were the parties for which you
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`testified live at trial?
`
` A There was a case called --
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` Q Just the parties. I don't -- and again, this
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`will go a lot faster if you listen to my question and
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`directly answer my question. You're -- this attorney
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`will get a chance to ask you questions also if you want
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`to clarify anything or add anything or -- but this will
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`go a lot faster. My question was very simple. What
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`parties? What were the names of the parties for whom
`
`you testified as an expert live at trial or a hearing?
`
` A Parties as in companies?
`
` Q Yes.
`
` A And that's what I was trying to answer. I do
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`not understand where the miscommunication was.
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` Q I just want a list.
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` A That's what I was doing.
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` Q Okay. Well, give me the list.
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` A That's exactly what I was doing. So ready for
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`that?
`
` Q I
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