Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`ETHICON, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR2018-01247
`U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
`VOLUME I
`
`DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
`April 3, 2019
`
`9:00 a.m.
`
`Fish & Richardson
`
`One Marina Park Drive
`
`Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01254
`
`
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`ETHICON, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR2018-01247
`U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
`VOLUME I
`
`DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
`April 3, 2019
`
`9:00 a.m.
`
`Fish & Richardson
`
`One Marina Park Drive
`
`Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01254
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 2
`
` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
` 2 For the Petitioner:
`
` 3 Fish & Richardson, PC
`
` 4 by Steven R. Katz, Esquire
`
` 5 One Marina Park Drive
`
` 6 Boston, Massachusetts 02210-1878
`
` 7 (617) 521-7803
`
` 8 katz@fr.com
`
` 9
`
` 10 For the Patent Owner:
`
` 11 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 12 by Anish R. Desai, Esquire
`
` 13 767 Fifth Avenue
`
` 14 New York, New York 10153-0119
`
` 15 (212) 310-8730
`
` 16 anish.desai@weil.com
`
` 17
`
` 18 - and -
`
` 19
`
` 20 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 21 by Christopher T. Marando, Esquire
`
` 22 2001 M Street NW, Suite 600
`
` 23 Washington, District of Columbia 20036
`
` 24 (202) 682-7094
`
` 25 christopher.marando@weil.com
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`2
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 3
`
` 1 I N D E X
`
` 2 Deposition of: Page
`
` 3 Bryan D. Knodel
`
` 4 by Mr. Desai 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13 E X H I B I T S
`
` 14 No. Page
`
` 15 Exhibit 2004 United States Patent No. US
`
` 16 7,473,258, dated January 6,
`
` 17 2009. 28
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`3
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 4
`
` 1 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 2 MORNING SESSION
`
` 3 9:03 a.m.
`
` 4 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 5 * * *
`
` 6 BRYAN D. KNODEL, PH.D.
`
` 7 having been satisfactorily identified and duly sworn
`
` 8 by the Notary Public was examined and testified as
`
` 9 follows:
`
` 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
` 11 BY MR. DESAI:
`
` 12 Q. Could you state your name for the record.
`
` 13 A. Bryan Knodel.
`
` 14 Q. Dr. Knodel, would you mind -- you have a
`
` 15 binder sitting in front of you. Would you mind just
`
` 16 quickly reading off the exhibit numbers. I'm
`
` 17 guessing they all start with the 100. If you could
`
` 18 just read off the exhibit numbers that you have in
`
` 19 that binder for the record.
`
` 20 A. Right. The first one does not have an
`
` 21 exhibit number.
`
` 22 Q. Do you want to just read what it is then.
`
` 23 A. It is the '969 patent.
`
` 24 Q. Okay.
`
` 25 A. The second one is Exhibit 1004 in Knodel
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`4
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 5
`
` 1 declaration; the third is Exhibit 1007, Cooper; and
`
` 2 then is 1008, Wallace; 1009, Tierney; 1010,
`
` 3 Anderson; 1011, Timm; 1012, Knodel.
`
` 4 Q. Thank you.
`
` 5 Dr. Knodel, where are you currently
`
` 6 employed?
`
` 7 A. I am a consultant. Self-employed.
`
` 8 Q. Is there any reason sitting here today
`
` 9 you're unable to testify truthfully?
`
` 10 A. None.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. And you have been deposed before;
`
` 12 is that right?
`
` 13 A. Yes.
`
` 14 Q. Was it just the one time before that
`
` 15 you've been deposed?
`
` 16 A. Yes.
`
` 17 Q. All right. So I'll just refresh kind of
`
` 18 the nature of a deposition quickly. The most
`
` 19 important thing is if you don't understand a
`
` 20 question I'm asking, just let me know, and I'll do
`
` 21 my best to rephrase the question. Okay?
`
` 22 A. Okay.
`
` 23 Q. If you need to take a break, just let me
`
` 24 know. We can take a break any time you want. Just
`
` 25 if there's a question pending, just we'll -- just
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`5
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 6
`
` 1 answer the question and then take our break. Okay?
`
` 2 A. Okay.
`
` 3 Q. Your attorney is probably going to object
`
` 4 to questions that I ask, and he'll state his
`
` 5 objections for the record; but you're still required
`
` 6 to answer the question unless he instructs you not
`
` 7 to answer, which is typically only for privilege.
`
` 8 Okay?
`
` 9 A. Okay.
`
` 10 Q. What did you do to prepare for the
`
` 11 deposition today?
`
` 12 A. I reread my deposition and the supporting
`
` 13 exhibits.
`
` 14 Q. You said "deposition." I think you
`
` 15 probably meant declaration?
`
` 16 A. Declaration. Sorry.
`
` 17 Q. That's okay.
`
` 18 You reviewed the '969 patent?
`
` 19 A. I did.
`
` 20 Q. It's a big one.
`
` 21 A. Yesterday I was on a sailboat in Puerto
`
` 22 Rico, so --
`
` 23 Q. All right.
`
` 24 A. It hasn't been a lot of time.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. How much time did you spend
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`6
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 7
`
` 1 preparing for the deposition today?
`
` 2 A. About six hours.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. On the sailboat?
`
` 4 A. No. Well, a little bit on the sailboat.
`
` 5 It's so distracting. Mostly just yesterday on the
`
` 6 flight, and once I got here.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. I got it.
`
` 8 Are there any corrections you feel like
`
` 9 you need to make to your declaration?
`
` 10 A. There was a typo here and there I found,
`
` 11 nothing of substance.
`
` 12 Q. Okay.
`
` 13 A. You know, a reference cited that was maybe
`
` 14 it looked like a copy/paste error, things like that.
`
` 15 Q. Do you have a specific one in mind?
`
` 16 A. Oh, boy. Give me a moment.
`
` 17 Q. Sure.
`
` 18 A. There was a place where we said Anderson,
`
` 19 when we -- it was clearly we were citing to Timm.
`
` 20 Q. I think I know what you're talking about.
`
` 21 A. Yeah, so I don't know that I could find it
`
` 22 quickly. If it's important, I'll -- okay. I'll
`
` 23 just -- I did find some things that were in reading
`
` 24 it here six months later that I was like oh, gosh, I
`
` 25 didn't catch that.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`7
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 8
`
` 1 Q. You're talking about clerical errors
`
` 2 basically?
`
` 3 A. Basically, yes.
`
` 4 Q. Yeah. Are there any substantive
`
` 5 corrections you feel like you need to make to your
`
` 6 declaration?
`
` 7 A. No.
`
` 8 Q. Okay. Why don't you go to paragraph 78 of
`
` 9 your declaration.
`
` 10 In the first sentence, third line, it
`
` 11 refers to a quick disconnect feature of Anderson,
`
` 12 but the citation later is to Timm. Is this where
`
` 13 you think --
`
` 14 A. Yeah.
`
` 15 Q. -- it should have referred to Timm?
`
` 16 A. Yes.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 A. That's the one. You found it.
`
` 19 Q. Yeah. Got it.
`
` 20 And then we might encounter some others as
`
` 21 we go through this today.
`
` 22 A. Okay.
`
` 23 Q. How long did you meet with the lawyers or
`
` 24 lawyer for preparation?
`
` 25 A. Approximately five hours.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`8
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 9
`
` 1 Q. Five hours.
`
` 2 And was it just Mr. Katz you met with?
`
` 3 A. That's correct.
`
` 4 Q. You've submitted declarations, by my
`
` 5 count, in seven IPRs for Intuitive now; is that
`
` 6 right?
`
` 7 A. I don't recall the number.
`
` 8 Q. Yeah.
`
` 9 A. It sounds about right.
`
` 10 Q. Okay. There was the group that were
`
` 11 filed, I think, in early summer, late summer of last
`
` 12 year, and then there was one that was just recently
`
` 13 filed; is that right?
`
` 14 A. That seems to be what I recall, yes.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. And when did you start consulting
`
` 16 for Intuitive on these IPRs?
`
` 17 A. I don't consult to Intuitive. I consult
`
` 18 to Fish & Richardson.
`
` 19 Q. Sorry. When did you start consulting with
`
` 20 Fish & Richardson on these IPRs?
`
` 21 A. I don't recall the exact date, but I
`
` 22 believe it was -- I don't recall. Because we worked
`
` 23 on them for a while. I would say -- I don't recall.
`
` 24 Q. That's fair enough.
`
` 25 A. I'd just be making something up.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`9
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 10
`
` 1 Q. Okay. We don't want you to do that.
`
` 2 A. Yeah.
`
` 3 Q. How did you get involved in consulting
`
` 4 with Fish & Richardson?
`
` 5 A. I received a phone call from someone from
`
` 6 Fish & Richardson asking me about my background, my
`
` 7 experience in staplers, and if I would be willing to
`
` 8 consider being an expert witness. I remember it
`
` 9 very clearly because it's kind of first I had ever
`
` 10 heard of them, and I said, well, I don't know if I'm
`
` 11 for you or against you; so, we started a conversation.
`
` 12 Q. All right. Okay. Had you ever consulted
`
` 13 in a patent matter before this one?
`
` 14 A. Yes, one other.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. What was that about?
`
` 16 A. It was relative to an endoscope.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 MR. KATZ: Oh, and I just want to just
`
` 19 remind the witness this is going to be filed
`
` 20 publicly. If there's any confidential information,
`
` 21 just make sure to say that's confidential, and we'll
`
` 22 take it up.
`
` 23 MR. DESAI: We'll figure that out.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
` 25 MR. KATZ: Yep.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`10
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
` 1 BY MR. DESAI:
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 11
`
` 2 Q. Have you ever worked or consulted for
`
` 3 Intuitive?
`
` 4 A. I have.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. When was -- when was that
`
` 6 consulting?
`
` 7 A. Approximately 2012 to 2014, off and on, to
`
` 8 the best of my recollection.
`
` 9 Q. Just during that time frame, not before or
`
` 10 after?
`
` 11 A. It could have been before. It is a
`
` 12 sporadic client of mine. They'd come in. They'd
`
` 13 want me to look at something. I'd look at it. They
`
` 14 were all very short duration. There was no products
`
` 15 that I developed. They were more consulting on
`
` 16 technical matters. So they were short, in and out.
`
` 17 So it's hard for me to say specifically when those
`
` 18 started.
`
` 19 Q. But you think it was roughly in the 2012
`
` 20 to 2014 time frame, roughly?
`
` 21 A. To the best of my recollection, that seems
`
` 22 about right. I don't -- I don't recall the
`
` 23 specifics of when that was.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. What was the nature of the work
`
` 25 that you did with Intuitive?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`11
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 12
`
` 1 A. As I mentioned, it was design
`
` 2 considerations, one relative to it that I recall
`
` 3 relative to a suction irrigation device, some things
`
` 4 relative to cables, cable mountings and routings.
`
` 5 Generally speaking, that type of consulting.
`
` 6 Q. Did you know for each of the consulting
`
` 7 projects what tool or tools your work related to?
`
` 8 A. I would say sometimes it was some specific,
`
` 9 like, in the suction irrigator; sometimes it was of
`
` 10 a general nature, like cables. Minimizing cable
`
` 11 stretch is a big deal and thinking about constructions
`
` 12 that would help that, and things like that.
`
` 13 Q. What tools can you recall that you did
`
` 14 provide consulting of for Intuitive?
`
` 15 A. Suction irrigation device.
`
` 16 Q. Any others?
`
` 17 A. Not specifically, not by a tool.
`
` 18 Q. Okay. Besides suction -- besides the work
`
` 19 on suction irr -- the irrigation device, the cable
`
` 20 work that you mentioned --
`
` 21 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 22 Q. -- anything else that you did for
`
` 23 Intuitive?
`
` 24 A. No. Like I say, I saw things, you know,
`
` 25 they would show me designs, but nothing that I, you
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`12
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 13
`
` 1 know, that I contributed to that I recall.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. When you said that they showed you
`
` 3 designs, what designs did they show you?
`
` 4 A. At the time -- at the time they
`
` 5 were -- one of the designs that they were looking at
`
` 6 was a stapler; so, I did see, oh, you're working on
`
` 7 a stapler.
`
` 8 Q. When was that?
`
` 9 A. I don't recall. I would say approximately
`
` 10 2012.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. And when you say "stapler," can you
`
` 12 be more specific what kind of device you're talking
`
` 13 about?
`
` 14 A. It was an endoscopic linear stapler.
`
` 15 Q. A device that both cuts and staples or
`
` 16 just staples?
`
` 17 A. It both cut and stapled.
`
` 18 Q. Okay.
`
` 19 A. Basically based on Power Medical, I think
`
` 20 there was an acquisition. I'm going a little bit by
`
` 21 old memory, but I think there was an acquisition. I
`
` 22 think they got into a business relationship, and it
`
` 23 was sort of a topic that was a buzz around when I
`
` 24 was there doing other work.
`
` 25 Q. Okay.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`13
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 14
`
` 1 A. Yep.
`
` 2 Q. Do you have any financial interests in
`
` 3 Intuitive?
`
` 4 A. I own one share of stock.
`
` 5 Q. I don't know if that's a yes or a no.
`
` 6 A. It's virtually no.
`
` 7 Q. One whole share?
`
` 8 A. One whole share. It keeps going up.
`
` 9 Q. We're going to mark that as a yes. Just
`
` 10 kidding. Just kidding.
`
` 11 Have you ever been involved in the design
`
` 12 of a surgical tool for a robotic system?
`
` 13 A. Yes, in the sense -- yes, I have.
`
` 14 Q. And what was that involvement?
`
` 15 A. I can't disclose the clients or the
`
` 16 products that I worked on.
`
` 17 Q. Do you have a time frame?
`
` 18 A. For confidentiality?
`
` 19 Q. No --
`
` 20 A. Oh, when I did it?
`
` 21 Q. Yeah, when you did it. Yeah.
`
` 22 A. I've worked on robotic-related projects
`
` 23 for companies in 2015 through present.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. And so that involved designing a
`
` 25 surgical tool for a robotic system?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`14
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 15
`
` 1 A. It did.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. What kind of tool?
`
` 3 A. I can't discuss the nature of the tool.
`
` 4 Q. You can't even discuss the type of tool,
`
` 5 like, what kind of tool it is? That's confidential?
`
` 6 A. I can tell you it's not a stapler.
`
` 7 Q. Okay.
`
` 8 A. It is actually confidential, yes. I have
`
` 9 a nondisclosure that says don't disclose who I work
`
` 10 for or the nature of the work I'm working on that I
`
` 11 signed. It's pretty boilerplate for consultants
`
` 12 like me.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. Aside from this one project that
`
` 14 you just mentioned, is there other instances where
`
` 15 you've designed a tool for a robotic system?
`
` 16 A. I have designed several tools for robotic
`
` 17 systems --
`
` 18 Q. Okay.
`
` 19 A. -- in the last three to four years.
`
` 20 Q. Okay. Other than the work that you've
`
` 21 done with designing tools for a robotic system in
`
` 22 the last three to four years, is there other
`
` 23 instances you can think of where you designed
`
` 24 surgical tools for a robotic system?
`
` 25 A. Not that I recall.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`15
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 16
`
` 1 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that prior to
`
` 2 2015, you had never designed a tool for a robotic
`
` 3 system?
`
` 4 A. No. I think I mentioned that I worked
`
` 5 for -- prior to that for Intuitive on a suction
`
` 6 irrigation device for a surgical robot.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. So your work with Intuitive on the
`
` 8 suction irrigation device involved you designing
`
` 9 that tool?
`
` 10 A. Aspects of it, yes.
`
` 11 Q. Okay.
`
` 12 A. The trumpet valve, how would you actuate
`
` 13 the trumpet valve piece of -- it was a subset of a
`
` 14 surgical instrument that's used on a robot.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. So prior to 2015, is it fair to say
`
` 16 that the only instance where you worked on the
`
` 17 design of a surgical tool for a robotic system was
`
` 18 the work on the suction irrigation device with
`
` 19 Intuitive?
`
` 20 A. No. What I'm saying is that I've consulted
`
` 21 to Intuitive in the period of roughly 2012 through
`
` 22 2014, roughly, and I consulted on a number of
`
` 23 aspects related to surgical -- robotically-controlled
`
` 24 surgical tools.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. What other tools besides the
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`16
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 17
`
` 1 suction irrigation device?
`
` 2 A. They weren't specific in nature. They
`
` 3 were surgical tools, but they weren't specific in
`
` 4 nature.
`
` 5 Q. I don't understand.
`
` 6 A. As I mentioned, they were cable driven.
`
` 7 They were dealing with high forces. They needed to
`
` 8 minimize stretch. They wanted to think of lower
`
` 9 cost ways to tension cables. They were four
`
` 10 surgical devices, but they weren't related to -- to
`
` 11 my recollection, they weren't related to a specific
`
` 12 product.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. I got you.
`
` 14 A. Okay.
`
` 15 Q. Have you ever taken a hand-held laparoscopic
`
` 16 tool and converted it for attachment to a robotic
`
` 17 system?
`
` 18 A. I have not.
`
` 19 Q. I think your C.V. is at the back of your
`
` 20 declaration; is that right?
`
` 21 A. It is.
`
` 22 Q. Yeah.
`
` 23 So you started working at Ethicon in 1990;
`
` 24 right?
`
` 25 A. Yes.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`17
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 18
`
` 1 Q. Okay. And from 1990 to 1992, you worked
`
` 2 on the design of manufacturing equipment for
`
` 3 production and packaging of surgical sutures; is
`
` 4 that right?
`
` 5 A. That is correct.
`
` 6 Q. Okay. Did you work on anything else
`
` 7 during this time frame, '90 to '92, or was that your
`
` 8 focus?
`
` 9 A. It was my -- my focus was high speed --
`
` 10 trying to develop high speed automation for the
`
` 11 assembly of and packaging of surgical sutures, yes.
`
` 12 Q. And then from '92 to '97, you were a
`
` 13 principal engineer at Ethicon Endo-Surgery; is that
`
` 14 right?
`
` 15 A. Yes.
`
` 16 Q. Okay.
`
` 17 A. At the end I was a principal engineer. I
`
` 18 was promoted.
`
` 19 Q. Oh, okay. During that whole timeframe you
`
` 20 were not a principal engineer?
`
` 21 A. Not during the whole time. That was where
`
` 22 I ended up.
`
` 23 Q. That's where you ended up?
`
` 24 A. Yeah.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. And during this time frame, '92 to
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`18
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 19
`
` 1 '97, you were focused on development of an endoscopic
`
` 2 linear cutter product line?
`
` 3 A. I did.
`
` 4 Q. Okay. Did you work on any other products
`
` 5 during that time period?
`
` 6 A. I did.
`
` 7 Q. What other products?
`
` 8 A. Clip appliers, endoscopic rotating clip
`
` 9 appliers. I did some trocar work related to IP
`
` 10 around the seals. I did -- there's a wide variety
`
` 11 of staplers that are not endoscopic that I consulted
`
` 12 on internally as a technical design reviewer and an
`
` 13 IP reviewer.
`
` 14 So my expertise specialty there was around
`
` 15 the idea, around intellectual property, helping
`
` 16 understand the landscape and helping them navigate
`
` 17 designs that would not read on to the then titan US
`
` 18 Surgical.
`
` 19 Q. Okay.
`
` 20 A. So that put me in front of a lot of
`
` 21 different products for Ethicon.
`
` 22 Q. Okay. Trocar is T-R-O-C-A-R.
`
` 23 A. Sorry about that.
`
` 24 Q. No, that's okay.
`
` 25 And the focus of your C.V. description in
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`19
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 20
`
` 1 this time frame is the endoscopic linear cutter;
`
` 2 right?
`
` 3 A. That was my -- that was my main job.
`
` 4 Q. All right.
`
` 5 A. Then there was all these peripheral
`
` 6 activities that you would be drawn into because of
`
` 7 my expertise.
`
` 8 Q. And it says you had -- it resulted in 14
`
` 9 product codes?
`
` 10 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 11 Q. That means those were products that were
`
` 12 commercially released?
`
` 13 A. That's correct.
`
` 14 Q. Did this endocutter have a trade name?
`
` 15 A. ETS.
`
` 16 Q. ETS. Just the Ethicon ETS or the Echelon?
`
` 17 A. ETS. Before Echelon.
`
` 18 Q. Before Echelon?
`
` 19 A. Yeah. So before Echelon, and then if you
`
` 20 go all the way back to the ELC 30 and the ELC 60,
`
` 21 everything in between there, that's what I did.
`
` 22 Q. And that was all referred to as ETS?
`
` 23 A. ETS. ATS was the articulating transecting
`
` 24 stapler that came in 35, 45, and 60-millimeter
`
` 25 lengths. Product codes also included the disposable
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`20
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 21
`
` 1 stapled -- the cartridges, so there were -- and
`
` 2 there were iterations of those products, EZ, the
`
` 3 EZ-35 came out, and, I think, that was supplanted by
`
` 4 the ETS.
`
` 5 So marketing was changing names and changing
`
` 6 features and changing things, but the construct of
`
` 7 that product line was my responsibility.
`
` 8 Q. I understand.
`
` 9 A. Yeah.
`
` 10 Q. Was this the first -- so this was not the
`
` 11 first endocutter that Ethicon had brought to market?
`
` 12 A. That is correct. The ELC-30 and the
`
` 13 ELC-60 predated my arrival there.
`
` 14 Q. How did the architecture of the ETS
`
` 15 endocutter differ from the previous version at a
`
` 16 high level?
`
` 17 A. Yeah, in every way that's important.
`
` 18 Q. Okay.
`
` 19 A. The part count was radically reduced.
`
` 20 They were -- at the time, Ethicon was losing money
`
` 21 on every one they sold and trying to make profit on
`
` 22 the reloads, cartridges.
`
` 23 When I did my redesign, we radically
`
` 24 reduced the part count, which made them profitable,
`
` 25 changed the manufacturing approach completely, and
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`21
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 22
`
` 1 even though I had never done it before, they sat me
`
` 2 in a room, and I figured it out and did it.
`
` 3 Q. Why did you leave Ethicon in '97?
`
` 4 A. My wife's father had a stroke.
`
` 5 Q. So you had to move?
`
` 6 A. I needed to -- I needed to relocate and
`
` 7 build ramps and put in hand grips, and he was in
`
` 8 Tucson, and we were in Cincinnati.
`
` 9 Q. I understand.
`
` 10 Have you done any consulting for Ethicon
`
` 11 since you left?
`
` 12 A. I have.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. Do you still consult for Ethicon?
`
` 14 A. No.
`
` 15 Q. No.
`
` 16 When did you stop consulting for Ethicon?
`
` 17 A. I think most of the consulting work I did
`
` 18 with Ethicon was pretty much right on the heels of
`
` 19 my departure, as I recall, so in that kind of 1999,
`
` 20 1998. I don't recall it going maybe even into 2000.
`
` 21 It was pretty much associated with stuff that
`
` 22 was -- I had some familiarity with, and they wanted
`
` 23 me to keep contributing to what they were trying to
`
` 24 do. I think there was a needle passer they were
`
` 25 trying to develop and a new lower cost scissors and
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`22
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 23
`
` 1 graspers and a whole handheld product line that I
`
` 2 consulted with them on, Ethicon Endo-Surgery.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. So it's been a pretty long time
`
` 4 since you consulted with Ethicon; is that right?
`
` 5 A. It has been, yeah.
`
` 6 Q. You have a fairly lengthy list of medical
`
` 7 device-related patents --
`
` 8 A. Yeah.
`
` 9 Q. -- in your C.V.?
`
` 10 A. There's a mistake in the beginning though
`
` 11 they pointed out last time in case you didn't find
`
` 12 it.
`
` 13 Q. I didn't.
`
` 14 A. So I made this -- I obviously created my
`
` 15 C.V. a long time ago --
`
` 16 Q. Okay.
`
` 17 A. -- and I did a search of patents with the
`
` 18 name "Knodel," and it turns out there was an
`
` 19 engineer at Ethicon that had the last -- same last
`
` 20 name, and so I ended up inadvertently listing his
`
` 21 patents. I think it was the first three on my C.V.
`
` 22 Q. So the first three on the C.V. are not
`
` 23 yours?
`
` 24 A. Yeah --
`
` 25 Q. Okay. That's fine.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`23
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 24
`
` 1 A. -- I think those are not mine --
`
` 2 Q. Okay.
`
` 3 A. -- which is very nice of the last attorney
`
` 4 pointed that out. Actually he pointed out the first
`
` 5 one wasn't mine. I checked that and found the other
`
` 6 two also.
`
` 7 Q. All right.
`
` 8 A. But I think there's -- yeah, there's still
`
` 9 a substantial list, yeah.
`
` 10 Q. The list is still pretty long even with
`
` 11 that.
`
` 12 Now, you've used the word "stapler" quite
`
` 13 a few times since we've started this deposition, and
`
` 14 the word stapler is used, you know, in a fair number
`
` 15 of the titles of your patents here; right?
`
` 16 A. Yes. That is true.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 A. I see that. I see stapler listed a lot.
`
` 19 Q. Yeah. Stapler does not necessarily refer
`
` 20 to an endocutter; is that right?
`
` 21 A. It doesn't -- it doesn't have to, no,
`
` 22 that's true.
`
` 23 Q. All right. So there are staplers that
`
` 24 just staple. They don't cut and staple tissue;
`
` 25 right?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`24
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 25
`
` 1 A. The simple answer would be yes, but I want
`
` 2 to clarify. Endoscopic -- endoscopic staplers,
`
` 3 linear staplers, they're -- there's a subset, I
`
` 4 believe, that some companies have that they call a
`
` 5 no knife. But generally, devices that only staple
`
` 6 aren't endoscopic. They look like a C-clamp.
`
` 7 They're used in open procedures.
`
` 8 Q. Okay. So you're saying when somebody uses
`
` 9 the word "stapler" in the context of an endoscopic
`
` 10 device, it means a device that cuts and staples
`
` 11 tissue?
`
` 12 A. No, I'm not saying that either.
`
` 13 Q. Okay.
`
` 14 A. No. There's endoscopic staplers that just
`
` 15 apply a staple on the end of an endoscopic tube, for
`
` 16 example.
`
` 17 Q. Okay. So then like I said, so then it's
`
` 18 fair to say that the word stapler --
`
` 19 A. Yes.
`
` 20 Q. -- can mean a device that just applies a
`
` 21 staple, and it can also sometimes mean a device
`
` 22 that, you know, cuts and staples on both sides of
`
` 23 the cut points?
`
` 24 A. It can mean both of those things, yes.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. And some of the patents you have
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`25
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 26
`
` 1 here in your list that are related to surgical
`
` 2 stapling involve a device that just staples; right?
`
` 3 A. No. I don't believe so. I mean real
`
` 4 quick, I believe, some of them don't clarify; for
`
` 5 example, about ten down, endoscopic surgical stapler
`
` 6 with compact profile. That actually would have
`
` 7 nothing to -- wouldn't -- I don't think that that's
`
` 8 necessarily tied to transecting. I don't recall it
`
` 9 being tied to that. So cutting, but -- what was the
`
` 10 question?
`
` 11 Q. That's okay.
`
` 12 A. I mean, I'm just trying to --
`
` 13 Q. So I said some of the patents you have
`
` 14 here in your list that refer to surgical stapling
`
` 15 involve a device that just staples without cutting?
`
` 16 A. I think that's -- I think that could be
`
` 17 true.
`
` 18 Q. Yeah.
`
` 19 A. I'd have to look.
`
` 20 Q. I have an example.
`
` 21 A. Okay.
`
` 22
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
