Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 1
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4 INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
` 5 Petitioner,
`
` 6 v.
`
` 7 ETHICON, LLC,
`
` 8 Patent Owner.
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11 Case IPR2018-01248
` U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15 DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
` 16 April 4, 2019
`
` 17 10:44 a.m.
`
` 18 Fish & Richardson
`
` 19 One Marina Park Drive
`
` 20 Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 1
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4 INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
` 5 Petitioner,
`
` 6 v.
`
` 7 ETHICON, LLC,
`
` 8 Patent Owner.
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11 Case IPR2018-01248
` U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15 DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
` 16 April 4, 2019
`
` 17 10:44 a.m.
`
` 18 Fish & Richardson
`
` 19 One Marina Park Drive
`
` 20 Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 2
`
` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
` 2 For the Petitioner:
`
` 3 Fish & Richardson, PC
`
` 4 by Steven R. Katz, Esquire
`
` 5 One Marina Park Drive
`
` 6 Boston, Massachusetts 02210-1878
`
` 7 (617) 521-7803
`
` 8 katz@fr.com
`
` 9
`
` 10 For the Patent Owner:
`
` 11 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 12 by Anish R. Desai, Esquire
`
` 13 767 Fifth Avenue
`
` 14 New York, New York 10153-0119
`
` 15 (212) 310-8730
`
` 16 anish.desai@weil.com
`
` 17
`
` 18 - and -
`
` 19
`
` 20 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 21 by Christopher T. Marando, Esquire
`
` 22 2001 M Street NW, Suite 600
`
` 23 Washington, District of Columbia 20036
`
` 24 (202) 682-7094
`
` 25 christopher.marando@weil.com
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
` 1 I N D E X
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 3
`
` 2 Deposition of: Page
`
` 3 Bryan D. Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 4 by Mr. Desai 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 4
`
` 1 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 2 MORNING SESSION
`
` 3 10:44 a.m.
`
` 4 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 5 * * *
`
` 6 BRYAN D. KNODEL, PH.D.,
`
` 7 having been satisfactorily identified and duly sworn
`
` 8 by the Notary Public was examined and testified as
`
` 9 follows:
`
` 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
` 11 BY MR. DESAI:
`
` 12 Q. So, Dr. Knodel, we're starting now with
`
` 13 the -- it's the 1248 IPR, which is the one with, I
`
` 14 think, Prisco is the primary reference.
`
` 15 A. Okay.
`
` 16 Q. Okay. And you were being deposed this
`
` 17 morning earlier on the 1254 IPR; right?
`
` 18 A. These numbers I don't know by heart.
`
` 19 Q. The Giordano one?
`
` 20 A. The one with Giordano, yes.
`
` 21 Q. Okay. What did you do to prepare for your
`
` 22 deposition on the Prisco IPR?
`
` 23 A. I looked at it last night, and -- yes.
`
` 24 Q. What did you look at?
`
` 25 A. My deposition, reference to --
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 5
`
` 1 Q. Your declaration you mean?
`
` 2 A. Declaration. Sorry. Declaration, and
`
` 3 some of the cited references.
`
` 4 Q. Which references did you look at?
`
` 5 A. Prisco, Cooper, Wallace, and Tierney. I
`
` 6 think that's it. Yeah. Okay.
`
` 7 Q. So this declaration includes a discussion
`
` 8 of both Wallace and Cooper?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
` 10 Q. Okay. So why don't you take a look at
`
` 11 Figure 39 of Wallace -- sorry -- of Cooper.
`
` 12 I don't think you're at the right place.
`
` 13 A. Thirty-nine you said?
`
` 14 Q. Yeah.
`
` 15 A. Sorry. Okay. There we are.
`
` 16 Q. All right. And unlike Wallace, Cooper
`
` 17 discloses the mechanism for actuating the opening
`
` 18 and closing of a jaw through the articulation joint;
`
` 19 correct?
`
` 20 A. Figure 39 illustrates the actuation on the
`
` 21 other side of the articulation joint, yes.
`
` 22 Q. When I asked you this question earlier
`
` 23 today, you said you hadn't thought of it. Did you
`
` 24 think about it during the time between the two
`
` 25 depositions?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 6
`
` 1 MR. KATZ: Actually objection to form.
`
` 2 Mischaracterizes testimony. In fact, he did answer
`
` 3 that question prior to the break.
`
` 4 A. Can you -- can you -- I don't recall
`
` 5 exactly what I said. Can you read it back to me.
`
` 6 Q. That's fine.
`
` 7 A. Okay.
`
` 8 Q. We'll move on.
`
` 9 All right. You have Prisco in front of
`
` 10 you?
`
` 11 A. I do.
`
` 12 Q. And Prisco is a patent that is about a
`
` 13 curved cannula surgical system; is that right?
`
` 14 A. A robotic surgical system configured with
`
` 15 a rigid curved cannula that extends through the same
`
` 16 opening in the patient's body, yeah.
`
` 17 Q. What is a curved cannula system?
`
` 18 A. A cannula is a tube. A curved cannula
`
` 19 would be a curved tube.
`
` 20 Q. Are you familiar with -- do you -- sorry.
`
` 21 Do you have experience with endoscopic
`
` 22 instruments that are inserted through a curved
`
` 23 cannula?
`
` 24 A. Yes.
`
` 25 Q. What's the reason for having a curved
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 7
`
` 1 cannula system?
`
` 2 A. I'm not sure of every reason, but the one
`
` 3 that I'm familiar with it allowed you to change the
`
` 4 angle of approach to a surgical site. When you're
`
` 5 straight, you come right at it. Curve, you can
`
` 6 sweep through an arc because of that curve, but I'm
`
` 7 not sure I could give every reason they do it, to be
`
` 8 honest with you.
`
` 9 Q. Yeah, I didn't ask for every reason.
`
` 10 A. Yeah.
`
` 11 Q. I just wanted to know if you know a
`
` 12 reason.
`
` 13 A. That's what I think they do.
`
` 14 Q. Okay. I think all of the handheld
`
` 15 endocutter instruments that we've looked at in the
`
` 16 past day and a half: Shelton, Giordano, I think your
`
` 17 Knodel patent, those are all endocutter instruments
`
` 18 that they're not passing through a curved cannula;
`
` 19 right?
`
` 20 A. The Giordano, Shelton, Knodel endoscopic
`
` 21 linear staplers are not designed to pass through a
`
` 22 rigid curved cannula. Right.
`
` 23 Q. Would you refer to those -- just for
`
` 24 terminology sake, would you refer to those as
`
` 25 straight instruments, not curved? Like, what's the
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 8
`
` 1 right terminology you would use to distinguish those
`
` 2 from a curved cannula system?
`
` 3 A. Yeah, straight is probably a good word,
`
` 4 yeah.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. Are there challenges associated
`
` 6 with designing an endoscopic instrument for a curved
`
` 7 rigid cannula system that are not present when
`
` 8 designing an instrument for a straight cannula?
`
` 9 A. I -- I'm sure that there are different
`
` 10 requirements. I haven't really thought about
`
` 11 specifically what those would be, but, yeah.
`
` 12 Q. Okay. Is designing an instrument for a
`
` 13 curved rigid cannula system more challenging than
`
` 14 for a straight instrument?
`
` 15 A. I -- it would totally depend on the whole
`
` 16 scope of what the specification was. It may be a
`
` 17 benefit; it may be a hindrance. I'm not sure.
`
` 18 Q. Have you thought about whether it would be
`
` 19 more challenging to design the same instrument, the
`
` 20 same endo -- let's try and create a proper
`
` 21 hypothetical here.
`
` 22 So suppose I have an end effector that
`
` 23 does a certain operation, okay --
`
` 24 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 25 Q. -- would it -- have you thought about
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 9
`
` 1 whether it would be more challenging to design the
`
` 2 instrument for that end effector if it's being used
`
` 3 in a curved cannula system versus in a straight
`
` 4 system?
`
` 5 A. I have not thought about that.
`
` 6 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at Figures 7B, C,
`
` 7 and D of Prisco.
`
` 8 A. Okay.
`
` 9 Q. Are you there?
`
` 10 A. I am.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. 7B you have a gear 740 that meshes
`
` 12 with gear 742 to perform a shaft roll; right?
`
` 13 A. That's correct.
`
` 14 Q. And Figure 7C and 7D have that same gear
`
` 15 mesh arrangement for shaft roll; right?
`
` 16 A. They do.
`
` 17 Q. Okay. And then if you go to Figures 9, I
`
` 18 think, C and E, you have end effectors, two end
`
` 19 effectors that include a pair of opposing jaws;
`
` 20 right?
`
` 21 A. I do see that. Mm-hmm.
`
` 22 Q. And these jaws can be opened and closed;
`
` 23 right?
`
` 24 A. The arrows indicate that. Mm-hmm. One
`
` 25 opens and closes with pull. The other opens and
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
` 1 closes with a push/pull.
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 10
`
` 2 Q. Right. So Figure 9C is a pull/pull and
`
` 3 Figure 9E is the push/pull; right?
`
` 4 A. That's correct.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. When the shaft of these instruments
`
` 6 is rolled, using that mesh arrangement we just
`
` 7 talked about in Figure 7B, C, and D, you would agree
`
` 8 that those jaws do not move relative to one another;
`
` 9 right?
`
` 10 A. I believe that to be true, yes.
`
` 11 Q. In other words, the gear mesh for the
`
` 12 shaft roll does not control a motion of a movable
`
` 13 component of the end effector; right?
`
` 14 A. I think that -- I don't see -- I don't see
`
` 15 immediately how that would happen; so, I would say
`
` 16 that probably the jaws are not actuated when you
`
` 17 roll the shaft.
`
` 18 Q. Okay. And Figures 7B, C, and D are tool
`
` 19 bases for an instrument that's going to be attached
`
` 20 to a robotic system; right?
`
` 21 A. Yes.
`
` 22 Q. Okay. And those tool bases are designed
`
` 23 to drive a shaft roll and to open and close jaws;
`
` 24 right?
`
` 25 A. I don't think necessarily exclusively, but
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
` 1 you're talking about 7C?
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 11
`
` 2 Q. We'll take it one at a time if you want
`
` 3 to?
`
` 4 A. Sure.
`
` 5 Q. 7B. Why don't we start with 7B.
`
` 6 A. 7B, I see a roll and I see one actuator
`
` 7 that's designed to go in two directions. So that
`
` 8 looks like those are the only -- just based on that
`
` 9 figure, just looking -- I might need to read the
`
` 10 description, but the figure only shows two.
`
` 11 C, I think I only -- I see the rotation of
`
` 12 770 is linked through a gear sector through the
`
` 13 linkage 774, to give forward and backward motion.
`
` 14 So that also looks like that's forward and backward
`
` 15 motion.
`
` 16 7D, a little more difficult to tell just
`
` 17 looking at the figure.
`
` 18 Okay.
`
` 19 Q. Okay. 7C -- why don't we just take it one
`
` 20 at a time with the description. So if you look at
`
` 21 Figure 7B and then the description is at column 15,
`
` 22 starting at line 36. Are you there?
`
` 23 A. Yes, I am.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. So my understanding of Figure 7B is
`
` 25 that you have a -- there are only two motions
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 12
`
` 1 provided for here. One is the shaft roll, and then
`
` 2 the other is the pull/pull for opening and closing
`
` 3 the jaws; right?
`
` 4 A. That is what it says, yes.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. And then Figure 7C --
`
` 6 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 7 Q. -- again we have in this one we have two
`
` 8 motions. Again, one is the shaft roll and the other
`
` 9 is the push/pull for the open, close; right?
`
` 10 I think it's at the bottom of column 15.
`
` 11 A. Oh, I was at the top of 16. Sorry. Yes,
`
` 12 push/pull. Right. Mm-hmm.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. And then Figure 7D is, again, also
`
` 14 two motions. You have the shaft roll, and then you
`
` 15 have the two gears used for the push/pull,
`
` 16 open/close?
`
` 17 A. Oh, yes. Yeah, I recall this. Mm-hmm.
`
` 18 Mm-hmm.
`
` 19 Q. So all of the tool bases that are
`
` 20 described in Prisco are designed to do the shaft
`
` 21 roll and the open close of the jaws, and that's it.
`
` 22 Right?
`
` 23 A. That's what these figures are showing,
`
` 24 yes.
`
` 25 Q. All right. Let's take a look at Cooper.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 13
`
` 1 A. Okay.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. And if we go to Figure 36.
`
` 3 A. Okay.
`
` 4 Q. Sorry. One second.
`
` 5 Sorry. Can you go back to Prisco. I have
`
` 6 one more question. Sorry for bouncing around.
`
` 7 A. Sure. I'm back at Prisco.
`
` 8 Q. All right. Figure 8A.
`
` 9 Okay. This is an illustration of what's
`
` 10 in the, I guess, the shaft of the instrument; right?
`
` 11 A. Let's just flip over to 8A's description,
`
` 12 and we'll know for sure. "Is a cut-away perspective
`
` 13 view that shows an illustrative structure of a
`
` 14 portion of an instrument shaft. Two tension
`
` 15 elements ... to operate the end effector."
`
` 16 Yeah, there's quite a bit of detail, but,
`
` 17 yeah, that's a cut-away view of what's inside of a
`
` 18 particular shaft.
`
` 19 Q. Right. It's a shaft for the curved
`
` 20 cannula, one of the curved cannula instruments
`
` 21 described in this patent; right?
`
` 22 A. I'm trying to confirm that. That --
`
` 23 looking at this, it seems to be describing an
`
` 24 instrument construction for use with this system.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. Do you understand the reason for
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 14
`
` 1 the -- or the purpose of using the support tubes
`
` 2 806A and B and the stiffening rods 816?
`
` 3 A. I haven't really thought about it.
`
` 4 Q. Okay. Okay.
`
` 5 A. Or I -- let me say that. Yeah I -- okay.
`
` 6 Never mind. Sorry.
`
` 7 Q. Do you have anything to add?
`
` 8 A. No. I was just thinking I don't recall -- I
`
` 9 don't recall thinking about those specifically, but
`
` 10 I was -- a flit of a memory flipped through my mind,
`
` 11 but I don't recall thinking about those specifically.
`
` 12 Q. Okay. We can go back to Cooper --
`
` 13 A. All right.
`
` 14 Q. -- on Figure 36.
`
` 15 A. Okay.
`
` 16 Q. Okay. And we've already discussed how
`
` 17 Cooper is a -- you agree that Cooper's a patent
`
` 18 that's directed to a multi-disk wrist; right?
`
` 19 A. Yes, it is a positively positionable
`
` 20 multi-disk wrist mechanism.
`
` 21 Q. Okay. And in Figure 36, you see the
`
` 22 multi-disk wrist is located at the distal end of the
`
` 23 device where the end effector is; right?
`
` 24 A. I do see that. Mm-hmm.
`
` 25 Q. And this is a straight instrument, right,
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
` 1 not a curved cannula system?
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 15
`
` 2 A. 402 is there. I don't know does it
`
` 3 specifically say whether 402 is rigid? Oftentimes,
`
` 4 devices that can curve are drawn straight just for
`
` 5 simplicity.
`
` 6 So it's a shaft. It doesn't specifically
`
` 7 say whether it's a flexible shaft or a rigid shaft.
`
` 8 Q. Okay. And Cooper describes in detail how
`
` 9 to actuate a gripping motion through the multi-disk
`
` 10 wrist; right?
`
` 11 A. There's some -- there's quite a bit of
`
` 12 detail in Cooper about an actuation mechanism for
`
` 13 actuating the jaw.
`
` 14 Q. All of the implementations in Cooper for
`
` 15 actuating a gripping motion through the wrist involve
`
` 16 the use of cable actuators pass through an aperture
`
` 17 in the disks of the wrist; right?
`
` 18 A. I'm not sure if all of them do.
`
` 19 Q. Are you aware of any that don't?
`
` 20 A. I'd have to look again to see if there's
`
` 21 any that -- I mean I just -- it's just a big
`
` 22 statement whether it's all including the references
`
` 23 that it also draws on. I can't really agree to that
`
` 24 statement.
`
` 25 Q. Have you assessed in your analysis of
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 16
`
` 1 Cooper whether it describes an actuating and
`
` 2 gripping motion through the wrist without the use of
`
` 3 cables?
`
` 4 A. I don't recall specifically looking for
`
` 5 that, to see if it disclosed that.
`
` 6 Q. Okay. Have you -- did you look and see
`
` 7 whether Cooper or do you have an opinion as to
`
` 8 whether Cooper discloses actuating a gripping motion
`
` 9 through the wrist by the use of a drive rod?
`
` 10 A. Can you say the question one more time.
`
` 11 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether
`
` 12 Cooper discloses actuating a gripping motion through
`
` 13 the wrist by use of a drive rod?
`
` 14 A. I don't -- I don't -- I'm just -- did I
`
` 15 formulate an opinion on that in -- I'm just -- I
`
` 16 feel like I'm off topic. Is this something
`
` 17 that -- did I formulate an opinion upon that in my
`
` 18 declaration that I need to clarify?
`
` 19 Q. I'm asking if you have an opinion about
`
` 20 it. I don't know if you do. I mean I don't think I
`
` 21 saw it in your declaration, but I don't know for
`
` 22 sure, so.
`
` 23 A. Oh, okay. I don't know -- I think that
`
` 24 there are probably a bar construction that could go
`
` 25 through the Cooper joint.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 17
`
` 1 Q. Did you discuss that in your declaration?
`
` 2 A. That's what I -- I don't recall, so if --
`
` 3 Q. Okay.
`
` 4 A. Yeah.
`
` 5 Q. My question is -- just if you focus on the
`
` 6 question.
`
` 7 A. Okay.
`
` 8 Q. So the question is do you have an opinion
`
` 9 as to whether Cooper discloses using a drive rod to
`
` 10 actuate the gripping mechanism through the wrist?
`
` 11 MR. KATZ: Objection. Asked and answered.
`
` 12 A. I don't -- I don't recall thinking about
`
` 13 that.
`
` 14 Q. Okay. In forming your opinions, did you
`
` 15 consider the requirement in Wallace that the grip
`
` 16 mechanism needs to bend sharply?
`
` 17 A. I don't -- I don't believe that that's --
`
` 18 that --
`
` 19 Q. I'm sorry.
`
` 20 A. -- Wallace requires it to bend sharply.
`
` 21 Q. Sorry. All right. In forming your
`
` 22 opinions, did you consider the requirement in Cooper
`
` 23 that the grip mechanism needs to bend sharply?
`
` 24 A. That the grip mechanism needs to bend
`
` 25 sharply?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1 Q. Yes.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 18
`
` 2 A. I -- the Cooper mechanism can bend a
`
` 3 little or it can bend a lot, the articulation joint;
`
` 4 so, I'm not sure what you mean by that it has to
`
` 5 bend sharply.
`
` 6 Q. In forming your opinions, did you consider
`
` 7 the issue of friction because of the grip mechanism
`
` 8 rubbing against the apertures of the disk?
`
` 9 A. Friction is discussed in the patent, and
`
` 10 selections of materials appropriate for it. It's
`
` 11 certainly an engineering consideration.
`
` 12 Q. Let me take a look at column 17 of Cooper,
`
` 13 and there's a section in there. Let me know when
`
` 14 you're there.
`
` 15 A. I'm in column 17 of Cooper.
`
` 16 Q. And there's a Section D --
`
` 17 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 18 Q. -- titled "Grip Actuation Mechanism";
`
` 19 right?
`
` 20 A. I see that.
`
` 21 Q. Did you review this section carefully?
`
` 22 A. I reviewed this entire patent, so, yes, I
`
` 23 did.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. And then you would agree that the
`
` 25 only grip actuation mechanism described in this
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 19
`
` 1 section is one that uses cables that pass through
`
` 2 the aperture of the disk -- disks?
`
` 3 A. I'm going to look at it again to refresh
`
` 4 my memory.
`
` 5 Q. Go ahead.
`
` 6 (Pause.)
`
` 7 A. So the pull/pull wrist mechanism is what
`
` 8 this is describing, not the push/pull. It's very
`
` 9 difficult to push on cables, and so when we're
`
` 10 talking about push/pull versus pull/pull, this is a
`
` 11 pull/pull. It's not impossible to push on a cable;
`
` 12 it's just harder.
`
` 13 Maybe you can tell me what line you see
`
` 14 the word "cables," because I guess I'm just not
`
` 15 seeing it.
`
` 16 Q. Column 18.
`
` 17 A. Eighteen.
`
` 18 Q. Opening actuator cable 446, closing
`
` 19 actuator cable 448.
`
` 20 A. Ah.
`
` 21 Q. The actuator cable is 446, 448. You see
`
` 22 it now?
`
` 23 A. Yeah, I see it. I was over at 17, sort of
`
` 24 scouring that. Mm-hmm.
`
` 25 Okay. I see that. A-ha. So this does
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
` 1 describe actuating cables.
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 20
`
` 2 Q. Yeah, so my question was you would agree,
`
` 3 since you've read this before and you're scanning it
`
` 4 now, that the only grip actuation mechanism
`
` 5 described in this section is the one that uses
`
` 6 cables that pass through the aperture of the disks;
`
` 7 right?
`
` 8 A. In this section, I only see cables. Where
`
` 9 they pass through is I'd have to look at that more
`
` 10 closely.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. Well, okay. Why don't we just
`
` 12 clarify that then.
`
` 13 A. Okay.
`
` 14 Q. Go to column 13, for example.
`
` 15 A. Okay. Mm-hmm.
`
` 16 Q. And you see here it says in one
`
` 17 embodiment -- we're at line five.
`
` 18 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 19 Q. Actually --
`
` 20 A. The inner diameter's three, and the outer
`
` 21 diameter's two. That's difficult.
`
` 22 Q. Yeah. Let me point you to a different
`
` 23 place.
`
` 24 A. Okay.
`
` 25 Q. I think I'm in the wrong place because
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 21
`
` 1 there's different cables discussed here. There's
`
` 2 cables for articulating the joint and then cables
`
` 3 for actuating the grip.
`
` 4 A. Right. Right.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. So --
`
` 6 A. You've got to keep track of which is going
`
` 7 where.
`
` 8 Q. Yeah, right. So I think column 13, at
`
` 9 line 50 --
`
` 10 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 11 Q. -- it says, "The lumen formed by the
`
` 12 annular disks can be used for isolation and for
`
` 13 passing pull cables for grip."
`
` 14 Do you see that?
`
` 15 A. I do see that now, yes.
`
` 16 Q. Okay. So that would be an opening between
`
` 17 the disks where you can pass the actuation cables
`
` 18 through; right?
`
` 19 A. That's -- yeah, I'm going to look over
`
` 20 here at Figure 5.
`
` 21 Figure 5's about as clear as mud, but,
`
` 22 yes, there's a lumen in the disks for passing, in
`
` 23 this case, cables through, yes.
`
` 24 Q. Right. And it's also shown as an example
`
` 25 in Figure 39, where the actuation grip cables are
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1 446 and 448.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 22
`
` 2 A. Okay. Let me just look. Thirty-nine. I
`
` 3 just want to make sure that those aren't just
`
` 4 directional errors -- arrows, because they don't
`
` 5 even look like cables.
`
` 6 Q. If you go to --
`
` 7 A. 446.
`
` 8 Q. I'll tell you. If you go to column 18 --
`
` 9 A. Actuation cables 446 and 448, and the
`
` 10 wrist controls such as -- okay. Mm-hmm. I see them
`
` 11 now. Yep.
`
` 12 Q. Okay. So all my question was that this
`
` 13 figure confirms that you have the actuation grip
`
` 14 cables, 446 and 448, being passed through the center
`
` 15 of the disks?
`
` 16 A. I see that, yes. Mm-hmm.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 A. Or at least through the lumen.
`
` 19 Q. Let's --
`
` 20 A. The reason why I'm clarifying that is if
`
` 21 you pull on that, it's going to not run through the
`
` 22 middle; it's going to go over on one side.
`
` 23 Q. I understand. Okay.
`
` 24 Let's take a break.
`
` 25 A. Okay.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
` 1 (Short break taken.)
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 23
`
` 2 MR. DESAI: All right. We don't have any
`
` 3 more questions for you.
`
` 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
`
` 5 MR. KATZ: Nothing for me.
`
` 6
`
` 7 (Deposition concluded at 11:26 a.m.)
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 24
`
` 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
`
` 2 I, Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR, do certify
`
` 3 that the deposition of Bryan D. Knodel, Ph.D., in
`
` 4 the matter of Intuitive Surgical, Inc. vs. Ethicon,
`
` 5 LLC, on April 4, 2019, was stenographically recorded
`
` 6 by me; that the witness provided satisfactory
`
` 7 evidence of identification, as prescribed by
`
` 8 Executive Order 455 (03-13), issued by the Governor
`
` 9 of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, before being
`
` 10 sworn by me, a Notary Public in and for the
`
` 11 Commonwealth of Massachusetts; that the transcript
`
` 12 produced by me is a true and accurate record of the
`
` 13 proceedings to the best of my ability; that I am
`
` 14 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any
`
` 15 of the parties to the above action; and further that
`
` 16 I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or
`
` 17 counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor
`
` 18 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome
`
` 19 of the action.
`
` 20
`
` 21 April 7, 2019 _____________________________
`
` 22 Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`(cid:15)(cid:37)(cid:42)(cid:25)(cid:34)(cid:1)(cid:20)(cid:34)(cid:35)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:32)(cid:2)(cid:1)(cid:23)(cid:30)(cid:4)(cid:17)(cid:4)
`
`(cid:15)(cid:35)(cid:38)(cid:39)(cid:35)(cid:34)(cid:2)(cid:1)(cid:21)(cid:14)
`
`(cid:9)(cid:5)(cid:9)(cid:5)(cid:8)(cid:6)(cid:7)(cid:13)
`(cid:23)(cid:25)(cid:29)(cid:28)(cid:1)(cid:8)(cid:10)
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Notice Date: 04/09/2019
`Deposition Date: 04/04/2019
`Deponent: Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`Case Name: Intuitive Surgical v. Ethicon LLC
`Page:Line Now Reads Should Read
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`______ ________________________ ___________________
`
`(cid:7)(cid:3)(cid:12)(cid:6)(cid:6)(cid:3)(cid:19)(cid:22)(cid:24)(cid:3)(cid:17)(cid:18)(cid:23)(cid:22)
`
`(cid:14)(cid:32)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:37)(cid:38)(cid:35)(cid:34)(cid:1)(cid:16)(cid:35)(cid:40)(cid:37)(cid:39)(cid:1)(cid:24)(cid:28)(cid:36)(cid:35)(cid:37)(cid:39)(cid:31)(cid:34)(cid:29)
`
`(cid:41)(cid:41)(cid:41)(cid:4)(cid:14)(cid:32)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:37)(cid:38)(cid:35)(cid:34)(cid:24)(cid:28)(cid:36)(cid:35)(cid:37)(cid:39)(cid:31)(cid:34)(cid:29)(cid:4)(cid:26)(cid:35)(cid:33)
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01248
`
`
`
`CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
`
`I, JuIie Thomson RiTey, RDR, CRR, do certify
`
`that the deposition of Bryan D. KnodeT, Ph.D.,
`
`in
`
`the matter of Intuitive Surgica],
`
`Inc. vs. Ethicon,
`
`LLC, on ApriT 4, 2019, was stenographicaITy recorded
`
`by me;
`
`that
`
`the witness provided satisfactory
`
`evidence of identification, as prescribed by
`
`Executive Order 455 (03-13),
`
`issued by the Governor
`
`of the CommonweaTth of Massachusetts, before being
`
`sworn by me,
`
`a Notary PubTic in and for the
`
`CommonweaIth of Massachusetts;
`
`that
`
`the transcript
`
`produced by me
`
`is a true and accurate record of the
`
`proceedings to the best of my abiTity;
`
`that
`
`I
`
`am
`
`neither counse] for,
`
`reTated to, nor emponed by any
`
`of the parties to the above action; and further that
`
`I
`
`am not a reTative or emponee of any attorney or
`
`counseT employed by the parties thereto, nor
`
`financiaTIy or otherwise interested in the outcome
`
`,5} z 41';;.-__7/Z;Z@_4_2t4:££7@
`
`--
`
`,
`
`I
`
`JuTie Thomson RiTey. RDR, CRR
`
`of the action.
`
`Aer 7, 2019
`
`7
`
`(DOONQ'JQ‘IAOJNN
`NMNNNN‘flflQflfiVXfiflQLh-AWNNQQOONQLh-AMMQO
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2022
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