`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 1
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` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` 3
`
` 4 INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
` 5 Petitioner,
`
` 6 v.
`
` 7 ETHICON, LLC,
`
` 8 Patent Owner.
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11 Case IPR2018-01247
` U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14 VOLUME I
`
` 15 DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
` 16 April 3, 2019
`
` 17 9:00 a.m.
`
` 18 Fish & Richardson
`
` 19 One Marina Park Drive
`
` 20 Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 2
`
` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
` 2 For the Petitioner:
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` 3 Fish & Richardson, PC
`
` 4 by Steven R. Katz, Esquire
`
` 5 One Marina Park Drive
`
` 6 Boston, Massachusetts 02210-1878
`
` 7 (617) 521-7803
`
` 8 katz@fr.com
`
` 9
`
` 10 For the Patent Owner:
`
` 11 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 12 by Anish R. Desai, Esquire
`
` 13 767 Fifth Avenue
`
` 14 New York, New York 10153-0119
`
` 15 (212) 310-8730
`
` 16 anish.desai@weil.com
`
` 17
`
` 18 - and -
`
` 19
`
` 20 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 21 by Christopher T. Marando, Esquire
`
` 22 2001 M Street NW, Suite 600
`
` 23 Washington, District of Columbia 20036
`
` 24 (202) 682-7094
`
` 25 christopher.marando@weil.com
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 3
`
` 1 I N D E X
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` 2 Deposition of: Page
`
` 3 Bryan D. Knodel
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` 4 by Mr. Desai 4
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` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13 E X H I B I T S
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` 14 No. Page
`
` 15 Exhibit 2004 United States Patent No. US
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` 16 7,473,258, dated January 6,
`
` 17 2009. 28
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 4
`
` 1 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 2 MORNING SESSION
`
` 3 9:03 a.m.
`
` 4 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 5 * * *
`
` 6 BRYAN D. KNODEL, PH.D.
`
` 7 having been satisfactorily identified and duly sworn
`
` 8 by the Notary Public was examined and testified as
`
` 9 follows:
`
` 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
` 11 BY MR. DESAI:
`
` 12 Q. Could you state your name for the record.
`
` 13 A. Bryan Knodel.
`
` 14 Q. Dr. Knodel, would you mind -- you have a
`
` 15 binder sitting in front of you. Would you mind just
`
` 16 quickly reading off the exhibit numbers. I'm
`
` 17 guessing they all start with the 100. If you could
`
` 18 just read off the exhibit numbers that you have in
`
` 19 that binder for the record.
`
` 20 A. Right. The first one does not have an
`
` 21 exhibit number.
`
` 22 Q. Do you want to just read what it is then.
`
` 23 A. It is the '969 patent.
`
` 24 Q. Okay.
`
` 25 A. The second one is Exhibit 1004 in Knodel
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 5
`
` 1 declaration; the third is Exhibit 1007, Cooper; and
`
` 2 then is 1008, Wallace; 1009, Tierney; 1010,
`
` 3 Anderson; 1011, Timm; 1012, Knodel.
`
` 4 Q. Thank you.
`
` 5 Dr. Knodel, where are you currently
`
` 6 employed?
`
` 7 A. I am a consultant. Self-employed.
`
` 8 Q. Is there any reason sitting here today
`
` 9 you're unable to testify truthfully?
`
` 10 A. None.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. And you have been deposed before;
`
` 12 is that right?
`
` 13 A. Yes.
`
` 14 Q. Was it just the one time before that
`
` 15 you've been deposed?
`
` 16 A. Yes.
`
` 17 Q. All right. So I'll just refresh kind of
`
` 18 the nature of a deposition quickly. The most
`
` 19 important thing is if you don't understand a
`
` 20 question I'm asking, just let me know, and I'll do
`
` 21 my best to rephrase the question. Okay?
`
` 22 A. Okay.
`
` 23 Q. If you need to take a break, just let me
`
` 24 know. We can take a break any time you want. Just
`
` 25 if there's a question pending, just we'll -- just
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 6
`
` 1 answer the question and then take our break. Okay?
`
` 2 A. Okay.
`
` 3 Q. Your attorney is probably going to object
`
` 4 to questions that I ask, and he'll state his
`
` 5 objections for the record; but you're still required
`
` 6 to answer the question unless he instructs you not
`
` 7 to answer, which is typically only for privilege.
`
` 8 Okay?
`
` 9 A. Okay.
`
` 10 Q. What did you do to prepare for the
`
` 11 deposition today?
`
` 12 A. I reread my deposition and the supporting
`
` 13 exhibits.
`
` 14 Q. You said "deposition." I think you
`
` 15 probably meant declaration?
`
` 16 A. Declaration. Sorry.
`
` 17 Q. That's okay.
`
` 18 You reviewed the '969 patent?
`
` 19 A. I did.
`
` 20 Q. It's a big one.
`
` 21 A. Yesterday I was on a sailboat in Puerto
`
` 22 Rico, so --
`
` 23 Q. All right.
`
` 24 A. It hasn't been a lot of time.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. How much time did you spend
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 7
`
` 1 preparing for the deposition today?
`
` 2 A. About six hours.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. On the sailboat?
`
` 4 A. No. Well, a little bit on the sailboat.
`
` 5 It's so distracting. Mostly just yesterday on the
`
` 6 flight, and once I got here.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. I got it.
`
` 8 Are there any corrections you feel like
`
` 9 you need to make to your declaration?
`
` 10 A. There was a typo here and there I found,
`
` 11 nothing of substance.
`
` 12 Q. Okay.
`
` 13 A. You know, a reference cited that was maybe
`
` 14 it looked like a copy/paste error, things like that.
`
` 15 Q. Do you have a specific one in mind?
`
` 16 A. Oh, boy. Give me a moment.
`
` 17 Q. Sure.
`
` 18 A. There was a place where we said Anderson,
`
` 19 when we -- it was clearly we were citing to Timm.
`
` 20 Q. I think I know what you're talking about.
`
` 21 A. Yeah, so I don't know that I could find it
`
` 22 quickly. If it's important, I'll -- okay. I'll
`
` 23 just -- I did find some things that were in reading
`
` 24 it here six months later that I was like oh, gosh, I
`
` 25 didn't catch that.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 8
`
` 1 Q. You're talking about clerical errors
`
` 2 basically?
`
` 3 A. Basically, yes.
`
` 4 Q. Yeah. Are there any substantive
`
` 5 corrections you feel like you need to make to your
`
` 6 declaration?
`
` 7 A. No.
`
` 8 Q. Okay. Why don't you go to paragraph 78 of
`
` 9 your declaration.
`
` 10 In the first sentence, third line, it
`
` 11 refers to a quick disconnect feature of Anderson,
`
` 12 but the citation later is to Timm. Is this where
`
` 13 you think --
`
` 14 A. Yeah.
`
` 15 Q. -- it should have referred to Timm?
`
` 16 A. Yes.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 A. That's the one. You found it.
`
` 19 Q. Yeah. Got it.
`
` 20 And then we might encounter some others as
`
` 21 we go through this today.
`
` 22 A. Okay.
`
` 23 Q. How long did you meet with the lawyers or
`
` 24 lawyer for preparation?
`
` 25 A. Approximately five hours.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 9
`
` 1 Q. Five hours.
`
` 2 And was it just Mr. Katz you met with?
`
` 3 A. That's correct.
`
` 4 Q. You've submitted declarations, by my
`
` 5 count, in seven IPRs for Intuitive now; is that
`
` 6 right?
`
` 7 A. I don't recall the number.
`
` 8 Q. Yeah.
`
` 9 A. It sounds about right.
`
` 10 Q. Okay. There was the group that were
`
` 11 filed, I think, in early summer, late summer of last
`
` 12 year, and then there was one that was just recently
`
` 13 filed; is that right?
`
` 14 A. That seems to be what I recall, yes.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. And when did you start consulting
`
` 16 for Intuitive on these IPRs?
`
` 17 A. I don't consult to Intuitive. I consult
`
` 18 to Fish & Richardson.
`
` 19 Q. Sorry. When did you start consulting with
`
` 20 Fish & Richardson on these IPRs?
`
` 21 A. I don't recall the exact date, but I
`
` 22 believe it was -- I don't recall. Because we worked
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` 23 on them for a while. I would say -- I don't recall.
`
` 24 Q. That's fair enough.
`
` 25 A. I'd just be making something up.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 10
`
` 1 Q. Okay. We don't want you to do that.
`
` 2 A. Yeah.
`
` 3 Q. How did you get involved in consulting
`
` 4 with Fish & Richardson?
`
` 5 A. I received a phone call from someone from
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` 6 Fish & Richardson asking me about my background, my
`
` 7 experience in staplers, and if I would be willing to
`
` 8 consider being an expert witness. I remember it
`
` 9 very clearly because it's kind of first I had ever
`
` 10 heard of them, and I said, well, I don't know if I'm
`
` 11 for you or against you; so, we started a conversation.
`
` 12 Q. All right. Okay. Had you ever consulted
`
` 13 in a patent matter before this one?
`
` 14 A. Yes, one other.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. What was that about?
`
` 16 A. It was relative to an endoscope.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 MR. KATZ: Oh, and I just want to just
`
` 19 remind the witness this is going to be filed
`
` 20 publicly. If there's any confidential information,
`
` 21 just make sure to say that's confidential, and we'll
`
` 22 take it up.
`
` 23 MR. DESAI: We'll figure that out.
`
` 24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
` 25 MR. KATZ: Yep.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
` 1 BY MR. DESAI:
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 11
`
` 2 Q. Have you ever worked or consulted for
`
` 3 Intuitive?
`
` 4 A. I have.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. When was -- when was that
`
` 6 consulting?
`
` 7 A. Approximately 2012 to 2014, off and on, to
`
` 8 the best of my recollection.
`
` 9 Q. Just during that time frame, not before or
`
` 10 after?
`
` 11 A. It could have been before. It is a
`
` 12 sporadic client of mine. They'd come in. They'd
`
` 13 want me to look at something. I'd look at it. They
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` 14 were all very short duration. There was no products
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` 15 that I developed. They were more consulting on
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` 16 technical matters. So they were short, in and out.
`
` 17 So it's hard for me to say specifically when those
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` 18 started.
`
` 19 Q. But you think it was roughly in the 2012
`
` 20 to 2014 time frame, roughly?
`
` 21 A. To the best of my recollection, that seems
`
` 22 about right. I don't -- I don't recall the
`
` 23 specifics of when that was.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. What was the nature of the work
`
` 25 that you did with Intuitive?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 12
`
` 1 A. As I mentioned, it was design
`
` 2 considerations, one relative to it that I recall
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` 3 relative to a suction irrigation device, some things
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` 4 relative to cables, cable mountings and routings.
`
` 5 Generally speaking, that type of consulting.
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` 6 Q. Did you know for each of the consulting
`
` 7 projects what tool or tools your work related to?
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` 8 A. I would say sometimes it was some specific,
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` 9 like, in the suction irrigator; sometimes it was of
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` 10 a general nature, like cables. Minimizing cable
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` 11 stretch is a big deal and thinking about constructions
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` 12 that would help that, and things like that.
`
` 13 Q. What tools can you recall that you did
`
` 14 provide consulting of for Intuitive?
`
` 15 A. Suction irrigation device.
`
` 16 Q. Any others?
`
` 17 A. Not specifically, not by a tool.
`
` 18 Q. Okay. Besides suction -- besides the work
`
` 19 on suction irr -- the irrigation device, the cable
`
` 20 work that you mentioned --
`
` 21 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 22 Q. -- anything else that you did for
`
` 23 Intuitive?
`
` 24 A. No. Like I say, I saw things, you know,
`
` 25 they would show me designs, but nothing that I, you
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 13
`
` 1 know, that I contributed to that I recall.
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` 2 Q. Okay. When you said that they showed you
`
` 3 designs, what designs did they show you?
`
` 4 A. At the time -- at the time they
`
` 5 were -- one of the designs that they were looking at
`
` 6 was a stapler; so, I did see, oh, you're working on
`
` 7 a stapler.
`
` 8 Q. When was that?
`
` 9 A. I don't recall. I would say approximately
`
` 10 2012.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. And when you say "stapler," can you
`
` 12 be more specific what kind of device you're talking
`
` 13 about?
`
` 14 A. It was an endoscopic linear stapler.
`
` 15 Q. A device that both cuts and staples or
`
` 16 just staples?
`
` 17 A. It both cut and stapled.
`
` 18 Q. Okay.
`
` 19 A. Basically based on Power Medical, I think
`
` 20 there was an acquisition. I'm going a little bit by
`
` 21 old memory, but I think there was an acquisition. I
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` 22 think they got into a business relationship, and it
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` 23 was sort of a topic that was a buzz around when I
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` 24 was there doing other work.
`
` 25 Q. Okay.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 14
`
` 1 A. Yep.
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` 2 Q. Do you have any financial interests in
`
` 3 Intuitive?
`
` 4 A. I own one share of stock.
`
` 5 Q. I don't know if that's a yes or a no.
`
` 6 A. It's virtually no.
`
` 7 Q. One whole share?
`
` 8 A. One whole share. It keeps going up.
`
` 9 Q. We're going to mark that as a yes. Just
`
` 10 kidding. Just kidding.
`
` 11 Have you ever been involved in the design
`
` 12 of a surgical tool for a robotic system?
`
` 13 A. Yes, in the sense -- yes, I have.
`
` 14 Q. And what was that involvement?
`
` 15 A. I can't disclose the clients or the
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` 16 products that I worked on.
`
` 17 Q. Do you have a time frame?
`
` 18 A. For confidentiality?
`
` 19 Q. No --
`
` 20 A. Oh, when I did it?
`
` 21 Q. Yeah, when you did it. Yeah.
`
` 22 A. I've worked on robotic-related projects
`
` 23 for companies in 2015 through present.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. And so that involved designing a
`
` 25 surgical tool for a robotic system?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 15
`
` 1 A. It did.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. What kind of tool?
`
` 3 A. I can't discuss the nature of the tool.
`
` 4 Q. You can't even discuss the type of tool,
`
` 5 like, what kind of tool it is? That's confidential?
`
` 6 A. I can tell you it's not a stapler.
`
` 7 Q. Okay.
`
` 8 A. It is actually confidential, yes. I have
`
` 9 a nondisclosure that says don't disclose who I work
`
` 10 for or the nature of the work I'm working on that I
`
` 11 signed. It's pretty boilerplate for consultants
`
` 12 like me.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. Aside from this one project that
`
` 14 you just mentioned, is there other instances where
`
` 15 you've designed a tool for a robotic system?
`
` 16 A. I have designed several tools for robotic
`
` 17 systems --
`
` 18 Q. Okay.
`
` 19 A. -- in the last three to four years.
`
` 20 Q. Okay. Other than the work that you've
`
` 21 done with designing tools for a robotic system in
`
` 22 the last three to four years, is there other
`
` 23 instances you can think of where you designed
`
` 24 surgical tools for a robotic system?
`
` 25 A. Not that I recall.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 16
`
` 1 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that prior to
`
` 2 2015, you had never designed a tool for a robotic
`
` 3 system?
`
` 4 A. No. I think I mentioned that I worked
`
` 5 for -- prior to that for Intuitive on a suction
`
` 6 irrigation device for a surgical robot.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. So your work with Intuitive on the
`
` 8 suction irrigation device involved you designing
`
` 9 that tool?
`
` 10 A. Aspects of it, yes.
`
` 11 Q. Okay.
`
` 12 A. The trumpet valve, how would you actuate
`
` 13 the trumpet valve piece of -- it was a subset of a
`
` 14 surgical instrument that's used on a robot.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. So prior to 2015, is it fair to say
`
` 16 that the only instance where you worked on the
`
` 17 design of a surgical tool for a robotic system was
`
` 18 the work on the suction irrigation device with
`
` 19 Intuitive?
`
` 20 A. No. What I'm saying is that I've consulted
`
` 21 to Intuitive in the period of roughly 2012 through
`
` 22 2014, roughly, and I consulted on a number of
`
` 23 aspects related to surgical -- robotically-controlled
`
` 24 surgical tools.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. What other tools besides the
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 17
`
` 1 suction irrigation device?
`
` 2 A. They weren't specific in nature. They
`
` 3 were surgical tools, but they weren't specific in
`
` 4 nature.
`
` 5 Q. I don't understand.
`
` 6 A. As I mentioned, they were cable driven.
`
` 7 They were dealing with high forces. They needed to
`
` 8 minimize stretch. They wanted to think of lower
`
` 9 cost ways to tension cables. They were four
`
` 10 surgical devices, but they weren't related to -- to
`
` 11 my recollection, they weren't related to a specific
`
` 12 product.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. I got you.
`
` 14 A. Okay.
`
` 15 Q. Have you ever taken a hand-held laparoscopic
`
` 16 tool and converted it for attachment to a robotic
`
` 17 system?
`
` 18 A. I have not.
`
` 19 Q. I think your C.V. is at the back of your
`
` 20 declaration; is that right?
`
` 21 A. It is.
`
` 22 Q. Yeah.
`
` 23 So you started working at Ethicon in 1990;
`
` 24 right?
`
` 25 A. Yes.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 18
`
` 1 Q. Okay. And from 1990 to 1992, you worked
`
` 2 on the design of manufacturing equipment for
`
` 3 production and packaging of surgical sutures; is
`
` 4 that right?
`
` 5 A. That is correct.
`
` 6 Q. Okay. Did you work on anything else
`
` 7 during this time frame, '90 to '92, or was that your
`
` 8 focus?
`
` 9 A. It was my -- my focus was high speed --
`
` 10 trying to develop high speed automation for the
`
` 11 assembly of and packaging of surgical sutures, yes.
`
` 12 Q. And then from '92 to '97, you were a
`
` 13 principal engineer at Ethicon Endo-Surgery; is that
`
` 14 right?
`
` 15 A. Yes.
`
` 16 Q. Okay.
`
` 17 A. At the end I was a principal engineer. I
`
` 18 was promoted.
`
` 19 Q. Oh, okay. During that whole timeframe you
`
` 20 were not a principal engineer?
`
` 21 A. Not during the whole time. That was where
`
` 22 I ended up.
`
` 23 Q. That's where you ended up?
`
` 24 A. Yeah.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. And during this time frame, '92 to
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 19
`
` 1 '97, you were focused on development of an endoscopic
`
` 2 linear cutter product line?
`
` 3 A. I did.
`
` 4 Q. Okay. Did you work on any other products
`
` 5 during that time period?
`
` 6 A. I did.
`
` 7 Q. What other products?
`
` 8 A. Clip appliers, endoscopic rotating clip
`
` 9 appliers. I did some trocar work related to IP
`
` 10 around the seals. I did -- there's a wide variety
`
` 11 of staplers that are not endoscopic that I consulted
`
` 12 on internally as a technical design reviewer and an
`
` 13 IP reviewer.
`
` 14 So my expertise specialty there was around
`
` 15 the idea, around intellectual property, helping
`
` 16 understand the landscape and helping them navigate
`
` 17 designs that would not read on to the then titan US
`
` 18 Surgical.
`
` 19 Q. Okay.
`
` 20 A. So that put me in front of a lot of
`
` 21 different products for Ethicon.
`
` 22 Q. Okay. Trocar is T-R-O-C-A-R.
`
` 23 A. Sorry about that.
`
` 24 Q. No, that's okay.
`
` 25 And the focus of your C.V. description in
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 20
`
` 1 this time frame is the endoscopic linear cutter;
`
` 2 right?
`
` 3 A. That was my -- that was my main job.
`
` 4 Q. All right.
`
` 5 A. Then there was all these peripheral
`
` 6 activities that you would be drawn into because of
`
` 7 my expertise.
`
` 8 Q. And it says you had -- it resulted in 14
`
` 9 product codes?
`
` 10 A. Mm-hmm.
`
` 11 Q. That means those were products that were
`
` 12 commercially released?
`
` 13 A. That's correct.
`
` 14 Q. Did this endocutter have a trade name?
`
` 15 A. ETS.
`
` 16 Q. ETS. Just the Ethicon ETS or the Echelon?
`
` 17 A. ETS. Before Echelon.
`
` 18 Q. Before Echelon?
`
` 19 A. Yeah. So before Echelon, and then if you
`
` 20 go all the way back to the ELC 30 and the ELC 60,
`
` 21 everything in between there, that's what I did.
`
` 22 Q. And that was all referred to as ETS?
`
` 23 A. ETS. ATS was the articulating transecting
`
` 24 stapler that came in 35, 45, and 60-millimeter
`
` 25 lengths. Product codes also included the disposable
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 21
`
` 1 stapled -- the cartridges, so there were -- and
`
` 2 there were iterations of those products, EZ, the
`
` 3 EZ-35 came out, and, I think, that was supplanted by
`
` 4 the ETS.
`
` 5 So marketing was changing names and changing
`
` 6 features and changing things, but the construct of
`
` 7 that product line was my responsibility.
`
` 8 Q. I understand.
`
` 9 A. Yeah.
`
` 10 Q. Was this the first -- so this was not the
`
` 11 first endocutter that Ethicon had brought to market?
`
` 12 A. That is correct. The ELC-30 and the
`
` 13 ELC-60 predated my arrival there.
`
` 14 Q. How did the architecture of the ETS
`
` 15 endocutter differ from the previous version at a
`
` 16 high level?
`
` 17 A. Yeah, in every way that's important.
`
` 18 Q. Okay.
`
` 19 A. The part count was radically reduced.
`
` 20 They were -- at the time, Ethicon was losing money
`
` 21 on every one they sold and trying to make profit on
`
` 22 the reloads, cartridges.
`
` 23 When I did my redesign, we radically
`
` 24 reduced the part count, which made them profitable,
`
` 25 changed the manufacturing approach completely, and
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 22
`
` 1 even though I had never done it before, they sat me
`
` 2 in a room, and I figured it out and did it.
`
` 3 Q. Why did you leave Ethicon in '97?
`
` 4 A. My wife's father had a stroke.
`
` 5 Q. So you had to move?
`
` 6 A. I needed to -- I needed to relocate and
`
` 7 build ramps and put in hand grips, and he was in
`
` 8 Tucson, and we were in Cincinnati.
`
` 9 Q. I understand.
`
` 10 Have you done any consulting for Ethicon
`
` 11 since you left?
`
` 12 A. I have.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. Do you still consult for Ethicon?
`
` 14 A. No.
`
` 15 Q. No.
`
` 16 When did you stop consulting for Ethicon?
`
` 17 A. I think most of the consulting work I did
`
` 18 with Ethicon was pretty much right on the heels of
`
` 19 my departure, as I recall, so in that kind of 1999,
`
` 20 1998. I don't recall it going maybe even into 2000.
`
` 21 It was pretty much associated with stuff that
`
` 22 was -- I had some familiarity with, and they wanted
`
` 23 me to keep contributing to what they were trying to
`
` 24 do. I think there was a needle passer they were
`
` 25 trying to develop and a new lower cost scissors and
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 23
`
` 1 graspers and a whole handheld product line that I
`
` 2 consulted with them on, Ethicon Endo-Surgery.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. So it's been a pretty long time
`
` 4 since you consulted with Ethicon; is that right?
`
` 5 A. It has been, yeah.
`
` 6 Q. You have a fairly lengthy list of medical
`
` 7 device-related patents --
`
` 8 A. Yeah.
`
` 9 Q. -- in your C.V.?
`
` 10 A. There's a mistake in the beginning though
`
` 11 they pointed out last time in case you didn't find
`
` 12 it.
`
` 13 Q. I didn't.
`
` 14 A. So I made this -- I obviously created my
`
` 15 C.V. a long time ago --
`
` 16 Q. Okay.
`
` 17 A. -- and I did a search of patents with the
`
` 18 name "Knodel," and it turns out there was an
`
` 19 engineer at Ethicon that had the last -- same last
`
` 20 name, and so I ended up inadvertently listing his
`
` 21 patents. I think it was the first three on my C.V.
`
` 22 Q. So the first three on the C.V. are not
`
` 23 yours?
`
` 24 A. Yeah --
`
` 25 Q. Okay. That's fine.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 24
`
` 1 A. -- I think those are not mine --
`
` 2 Q. Okay.
`
` 3 A. -- which is very nice of the last attorney
`
` 4 pointed that out. Actually he pointed out the first
`
` 5 one wasn't mine. I checked that and found the other
`
` 6 two also.
`
` 7 Q. All right.
`
` 8 A. But I think there's -- yeah, there's still
`
` 9 a substantial list, yeah.
`
` 10 Q. The list is still pretty long even with
`
` 11 that.
`
` 12 Now, you've used the word "stapler" quite
`
` 13 a few times since we've started this deposition, and
`
` 14 the word stapler is used, you know, in a fair number
`
` 15 of the titles of your patents here; right?
`
` 16 A. Yes. That is true.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 A. I see that. I see stapler listed a lot.
`
` 19 Q. Yeah. Stapler does not necessarily refer
`
` 20 to an endocutter; is that right?
`
` 21 A. It doesn't -- it doesn't have to, no,
`
` 22 that's true.
`
` 23 Q. All right. So there are staplers that
`
` 24 just staple. They don't cut and staple tissue;
`
` 25 right?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 25
`
` 1 A. The simple answer would be yes, but I want
`
` 2 to clarify. Endoscopic -- endoscopic staplers,
`
` 3 linear staplers, they're -- there's a subset, I
`
` 4 believe, that some companies have that they call a
`
` 5 no knife. But generally, devices that only staple
`
` 6 aren't endoscopic. They look like a C-clamp.
`
` 7 They're used in open procedures.
`
` 8 Q. Okay. So you're saying when somebody uses
`
` 9 the word "stapler" in the context of an endoscopic
`
` 10 device, it means a device that cuts and staples
`
` 11 tissue?
`
` 12 A. No, I'm not saying that either.
`
` 13 Q. Okay.
`
` 14 A. No. There's endoscopic staplers that just
`
` 15 apply a staple on the end of an endoscopic tube, for
`
` 16 example.
`
` 17 Q. Okay. So then like I said, so then it's
`
` 18 fair to say that the word stapler --
`
` 19 A. Yes.
`
` 20 Q. -- can mean a device that just applies a
`
` 21 staple, and it can also sometimes mean a device
`
` 22 that, you know, cuts and staples on both sides of
`
` 23 the cut points?
`
` 24 A. It can mean both of those things, yes.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. And some of the patents you have
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2010.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D. (Vol. I)
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/3/2019
`Page 26
`
` 1 here in your list that are related to surgical
`
` 2 stapling involve a device that just staples; right?
`
` 3 A. No. I don't believe so. I mean real
`
` 4 quick, I believe, some of them don't clarify; for
`
` 5 example, about ten down, endoscopic surgical stapler
`
` 6 with compact profile. That actually would have
`
` 7 nothing to -- wouldn't -- I don't think that that's
`
` 8 necessarily tied to transecting. I don't recall it
`
` 9 being tied to that. So cutting, but -- what was the
`
` 10 question?
`
` 11 Q. That's okay.
`
` 12 A. I mean, I'm just trying to --
`
` 13 Q. So I said some of the patents you have
`
` 14 here in your list that refer to surgical stapling
`
` 15 involve a device that just staples without cutting?
`
` 16 A. I think that's -- I think that could be
`
` 17