Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`ETHICON, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR2018-01254
`U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
`DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
`April 4, 2019
`
`9:31 a.m.
`
`Fish & Richardson
`
`One Marina Park Drive
`
`Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 1
`
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`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`ETHICON, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR2018-01254
`U.S. Patent No. 8,479,969
`
`DEPOSITION OF BRYAN KNODEL, PH.D.
`
`April 4, 2019
`
`9:31 a.m.
`
`Fish & Richardson
`
`One Marina Park Drive
`
`Boston, Massachusetts
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
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` 20
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` 21
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` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25 ---- Reporter: Julie Thomson Riley, RDR, CRR ---
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 2
`
` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
` 2 For the Petitioner:
`
` 3 Fish & Richardson, PC
`
`by Steven R. Katz, Esquire
`
`One Marina Park Drive
`
`Boston, Massachusetts 02210-1878
`
`(617) 521-7803
`
`katz@fr.com
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10 For the Patent Owner:
`
` 11 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
`by Anish R. Desai, Esquire
`
`767 Fifth Avenue
`
`New York, New York 10153-0119
`
`(212) 310-8730
`
`anish.desai@weil.com
`
`- and -
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
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` 15
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` 16
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` 18
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` 19
`
` 20 Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`by Christopher T. Marando, Esquire
`
`2001 M Street NW, Suite 600
`
`Washington, District of Columbia 20036
`
`(202) 682-7094
`
`christopher.marando@weil.com
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 3
`
`Page
`
`4
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1
`
`Boston, MA
`
`I N D E X
`
` 2 Deposition of:
`
` 3 Bryan D. Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`by Mr. Desai
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 4
`
` 1 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`MORNING SESSION
`
`9:31 a.m.
`
` 4 ----------------------------------------------------
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
`* * *
`
`BRYAN D. KNODEL, PH.D.,
`
` 7 having been satisfactorily identified and duly sworn
`
` 8 by the Notary Public was examined and testified as
`
` 9 follows:
`
` 10
`
`DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
` 11 BY MR. DESAI:
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Could you state your name for the record.
`
`Bryan Knodel.
`
`And you were deposed yesterday in the 1247
`
` 15 IPR; is that right?
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`The Anderson case, yes.
`
`Okay. And for today's deposition, you
`
` 18 have a binder in front of you with the exhibits in
`
` 19 the 1254 IPR, which is the Giordano-based IPR; is
`
` 20 that right?
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, I do.
`
`Including your declaration?
`
`Yes, I do.
`
`Okay. Why don't you -- before we do that,
`
` 25 what did you do to prepare today for this deposition?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 5
`
` 1
`
`A.
`
`I looked over my declaration and the cited
`
` 2 references in it.
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`And when did you do that?
`
`Last night.
`
`Okay. Did you meet with your attorney to
`
` 6 talk about the case?
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I did. Yesterday afternoon.
`
`For how long?
`
`Two hours.
`
`Okay. Do you have any corrections to make
`
` 11 to your declaration, which is Exhibit 1005?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
`Not that I'm aware of.
`
`Okay.
`
`MR. KATZ: Do you happen to have an extra
`
` 15 copy of that one?
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
`MR. DESAI: Yes I do. Sorry.
`
`MR. KATZ: I think it would be helpful if
`
` 18 you have one.
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`Great.
`
`MR. DESAI: Okay. I'll hand out these.
`
` 21 This is the -- you already have the Giordano. I'll
`
` 22 give this to --
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
`MR. KATZ: Thank you.
`
`THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
` 25 BY MR. DESAI:
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 6
`
` 1
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. So for claim 24, that starts in
`
` 2 your declaration at page or let's say paragraph
`
` 3 I think it's 122; is that right?
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is correct.
`
`Okay. And as I understand your combination,
`
` 6 it's the Shelton stapler, adapted for use with
`
` 7 Giordano's articulation mechanism, and then
`
` 8 Wallace's surgical robot system; right?
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay. I'd like you to take a look at
`
` 11 Figure 5 of Giordano, which actually is on the next
`
` 12 page in your declaration. Okay. And then at the
`
` 13 same time, if you could look at Figure 11 of
`
` 14 Shelton.
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Mm-hmm.
`
`Okay.
`
`Okay.
`
`So Shelton stapler, Figure 11, includes a
`
` 19 firing bar 14 that moves linearly to fire the
`
` 20 stapler; is that right?
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Okay. And Giordano's stapler includes a
`
` 23 rotary drive assembly that is formed of at least the
`
` 24 main drive shaft 48 --
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Mm-hmm.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 7
`
`-- bevel gear assembly 52 --
`
`Mm-hmm.
`
`-- secondary drive shaft 50, drive gear
`
` 4 54, proximal drive gear 56 and helical screw shaft
`
` 5 36, and those are used to fire the stapler; right?
`
` 6
`
`A.
`
`I didn't see the last few numbers that
`
` 7 you -- you went pretty fast. Can you -- I was
`
` 8 following you up to the very end, the secondary
`
` 9 shaft, 36, and then what was after that? Sorry.
`
` 10
`
`Q.
`
`No, yeah, I'll do it again. I'll try to
`
` 11 do it slower.
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Okay. So Giordano stapler has a rotary
`
` 14 drive assembly for firing the stapler that includes
`
` 15 the main drive shaft 48, bevel gear assembly 52,
`
` 16 secondary drive shaft 50, drive gear 54 --
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`-- proximal drive gear 56, and then
`
` 19 helical screw shaft 36.
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right. I followed it. Okay. Thank you.
`
`And those are used to fire the stapler?
`
`That's correct.
`
`Okay. And as I understand your declaration,
`
` 24 you're saying that the articulation mechanism of
`
` 25 Giordano would be incorporated into the Shelton
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 8
`
` 1 stapler, so in your proposed combination, the firing
`
` 2 of the stapler would be accomplished using Shelton's
`
` 3 firing rod; is that right?
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`It could be.
`
`Well, what's your opinion in your
`
` 6 combination?
`
` 7
`
`A.
`
`Oh, I didn't -- in my opinion that I
`
` 8 formulated, I didn't feel like I needed to
`
` 9 distinguish, because either one -- I wanted to use
`
` 10 the -- I wanted to use the articulation of Giordano,
`
` 11 but whether I stuck with the firing bar of Shelton
`
` 12 or the rotary drive of Giordano, I felt was
`
` 13 not -- either one could have worked with that
`
` 14 articulation.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
`So when you say the Shelton stapler --
`
`Mm-hmm.
`
`-- what do you mean?
`
`I mean because in your declaration, you
`
` 19 say the Shelton stapler would be adapted for use in
`
` 20 Giordano's articulation mechanism. What do you mean
`
` 21 by the Shelton stapler?
`
` 22
`
`A.
`
`The mechanisms of the Shelton stapler, but
`
` 23 my recollection is that there's a lot of -- you
`
` 24 know, they -- the Shelton stapler had used a firing
`
` 25 bar. The Giordano used a rotary drive, and they
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 9
`
` 1 were -- they both accomplished the same purpose.
`
` 2 They advanced the wedge and knife.
`
` 3
`
`Q.
`
`Right. So but in your declaration, when
`
` 4 you tell the Board, I'm combining the Shelton
`
` 5 stapler, what do you mean?
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`What parts of the Shelton stapler?
`
`The -- I believe that there's -- when I'm
`
` 9 combining -- first of all, I'm combining all three.
`
` 10 I'm combining Giordano and Shelton and Wallace, in
`
` 11 this -- that's what you started with.
`
` 12
`
`You said -- I'll reread it: One
`
` 13 of -- "specifically one of ordinary skill in the art
`
` 14 would have understood that the Shelton stapler
`
` 15 adapted for use with Giordano's articulation
`
` 16 mechanism and Wallace's surgical robot disclose this
`
` 17 claim."
`
` 18
`
`It's the combination of the three; right?
`
` 19 So I'm not -- I wasn't specifically trying to
`
` 20 identify this specific component versus this -- it's
`
` 21 the concepts of Giordano's articulation, Shelton's
`
` 22 rotary inputs and -- in the handle that lead to
`
` 23 driving, and those rotary inputs can rotary drive a
`
` 24 linear actuation or you can keep them rotary and
`
` 25 drive the helical screw, and Wallace has the adapter
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 10
`
` 1 to the robot. So I wasn't trying to identify -- this
`
` 2 exact part from Shelton is what I was considering.
`
` 3 That was not what I did.
`
` 4
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. So when you said Shelton stapler,
`
` 5 you meant you're picking parts of the Shelton
`
` 6 stapler, parts of the Giordano stapler --
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`And parts of Wallace.
`
`-- and parts of Wallace?
`
`Yes, that's what I mean.
`
`But what part of -- when you say the
`
` 11 Shelton stapler here, what part are you referring to
`
` 12 or parts?
`
` 13
`
`A.
`
`I didn't specifically try to identify
`
` 14 those.
`
` 15
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. You've explained, I think, that the
`
` 16 articulation mechanism of Giordano that you're
`
` 17 incorporating includes the articulation control 16
`
` 18 and the articulation pivot 14; right?
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Can you point to my --
`
`Right. Yeah. So let's see, in
`
` 21 paragraph 122, you say Giordano's articulation
`
` 22 mechanism, and then you say see above claim 11;
`
` 23 right?
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Okay.
`
`You got that?
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`Yes, I see that.
`
`And if we go to paragraph 117, that's
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 11
`
` 3 claim 11; right?
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay. And at the bottom there, you define
`
` 6 Giordano's articulation mechanism is including,
`
` 7 among other things, the articulation control 16 and
`
` 8 the articulation pivot 14; right?
`
` 9
`
`A.
`
`I do identify that the Giordano's
`
` 10 articulation mechanism includes, among other things,
`
` 11 these controls 16, yes, and articulation pivot 14,
`
` 12 yes.
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Looking at Shelton Figure 11.
`
`MR. KATZ: That's right here.
`
`Q.
`
`Yeah. Thank you.
`
`How would the articulation pivot be
`
` 17 integrated into this device?
`
` 18
`
`A.
`
`The outer shaft 32 of Shelton is replaced
`
` 19 with the assembly of outer tube comprising 44 and
`
` 20 42.
`
` 21
`
`Q.
`
`And you would maintain or you could
`
` 22 maintain, in your view, the firing rod 14; right?
`
` 23 You wouldn't change that?
`
` 24
`
`A.
`
`Fourteen. I am not -- I didn't make a
`
` 25 determination whether I would want to or needed to.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 12
`
` 1 Maybe; maybe not.
`
` 2
`
`Q.
`
`The Shelton stapler, am I correct, that it
`
` 3 is intended to be actuated by a clinician first
`
` 4 drawing back a closure trigger to close the jaws and
`
` 5 then drawing back the firing trigger to fire the
`
` 6 stapler?
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is my understanding as well.
`
`Okay. For the Shelton stapler does the
`
` 9 clinician have to pump the trigger more than once
`
` 10 to fire or does pulling the trigger all the way
`
` 11 complete a full firing? Do you know?
`
` 12
`
`A.
`
`I don't recall. Did I -- did I comment on
`
` 13 that?
`
` 14
`
`Q.
`
`I don't think you did. I'm asking if you
`
` 15 know.
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I don't recall.
`
`Okay. Are you able to determine that by
`
` 18 looking at the Shelton stapler in the patent?
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
`A.
`
`Perhaps, if I read through it.
`
`(Pause.)
`
`A.
`
`I don't know that I -- the -- I am hesitant
`
` 22 to try to state this because this patent references
`
` 23 other patents that may be included, and I don't
`
` 24 think that that's something that I have time to
`
` 25 delve into right now.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 13
`
` 1
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. What about Figure 6 of Shelton,
`
` 2 taking a look at that, and Figure 8? Limit it to
`
` 3 that. Do those figures instruct you as to how the
`
` 4 firing would work as to how many times the user
`
` 5 needs to pull the trigger?
`
` 6
`
`A.
`
`From Figure 6, I would deduce that the
`
` 7 firing -- the closure trigger is pulled once, and
`
` 8 the firing trigger is pulled once.
`
` 9
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. In paragraph 127 of your declaration,
`
` 10 that's where you address what you've labeled as
`
` 11 limitation 24.2.2.
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay. And your primary position here is
`
` 14 that the Shelton stapler with the Giordano
`
` 15 articulation mechanism satisfies this limitation;
`
` 16 right?
`
` 17
`
`A.
`
`Giordano, in view of Wallace, where the
`
` 18 Shelton stapler with Giordano's articulation
`
` 19 mechanism, yes.
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`Mm-hmm.
`
`But then you have a sentence at the very
`
` 23 end of the paragraph that says "Moreover, Wallace,
`
` 24 likewise, teaches a surgical instrument with an
`
` 25 articulation joint providing articulation about an
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 14
`
` 1 axis transverse to the longitudinal axis, and thus
`
` 2 Wallace likewise provides the necessary teaching to
`
` 3 add articulation to the Shelton stapler."
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`I do see that.
`
`Okay. Are you proposing an alternative
`
` 7 combination here where the Shelton stapler utilizes
`
` 8 the platform wrist mechanism that's described in
`
` 9 Wallace as opposed to the Giordano articulation
`
` 10 pivot?
`
` 11
`
`A.
`
`What I'm proposing is that Wallace, that
`
` 12 the Wallace articulation joint creates a geometric
`
` 13 relationship where the axis is transverse to the
`
` 14 longitudinal tool.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`Okay. You didn't answer my question.
`
`Oh, I'm sorry.
`
`You answered a different question.
`
`Okay.
`
`I'll try again.
`
`Are you proposing a combination here where
`
` 21 the Shelton stapler utilizes the platform wrist
`
` 22 mechanism that's described in Wallace as opposed to
`
` 23 the Giordano articulation pivot?
`
` 24
`
`A.
`
`I'm not sure I understand the question. I
`
` 25 know this is the third time you've asked it, but.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 15
`
` 1
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. In your previous paragraph you
`
` 2 explain how the Shelton stapler will utilize a
`
` 3 Giordano articulation mechanism which we've
`
` 4 discussed as the articulation control 16 at least
`
` 5 and the articulation pivot 14; right?
`
` 6
`
`A.
`
`No. No, that's -- if you understood me to
`
` 7 say that, I wasn't saying that we would use that
`
` 8 exact articulation control 16. Sixteen is out on
`
` 9 the shaft, and it's -- it's -- I wasn't saying we're
`
` 10 using 16 specifically.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`So you're changing your declaration?
`
`No.
`
`Can you show me where I said -- identified
`
` 14 specifically part No. 16.
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`I think we just went through that.
`
`Okay. Let's do it again.
`
`Paragraph 117.
`
`Okay. I identify that that is the
`
` 19 mechanism of Giordano, but I'm not specifically
`
` 20 saying that I'm using all the -- I'm not identifying
`
` 21 the pieces of -- when I'm saying that that is -- in
`
` 22 Giordano, 16 is the articulation control; that is
`
` 23 true. What I'm not saying that it is in a
`
` 24 combination that 16 is a part that I have identified
`
` 25 that I'm using. That's the clarification I'm
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1 making.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 16
`
` 2
`
`Q.
`
`And so when you said or Giordano disclosed
`
` 3 an articulation mechanism, including among other
`
` 4 things, an articulation control 16 and articulation
`
` 5 pivot 14 --
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`-- you said that right?
`
`I did say that, yes.
`
`And then later on in your declaration, you
`
` 10 say the Shelton stapler with Giordano's articulation
`
` 11 mechanism. That's what you said, paragraph 127?
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I understand that.
`
`Right. And so now you're changing
`
` 14 this -- hold on. Let me just --
`
` 15
`
`MR. KATZ: And hold on because I'm going
`
` 16 to object. So hold your horses.
`
` 17
`
`Q.
`
`You're changing or you're modifying
`
` 18 paragraph 127 now, so that what you're saying here
`
` 19 is when you're saying Giordano's articulation
`
` 20 mechanism, you're not referring to the control 16?
`
` 21
`
`MR. KATZ: And objection to form.
`
` 22 Argumentative and mischaracterizes testimony.
`
` 23
`
`A.
`
`I'm saying that -- what I'm saying in
`
` 24 paragraph 17 is relative to Figure No. 2. I'm
`
` 25 identifying the articulation control in the pivot,
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 17
`
` 1 among other things, so that the reader can say, oh,
`
` 2 here's the articulation joint and its control.
`
` 3
`
`Later when I say I want to use Giordano's
`
` 4 articulation, I didn't identify all the elements of
`
` 5 the articulation. I identified them relative to
`
` 6 Figure 2 for identification, so I'm not specifically
`
` 7 saying that the combination requires the specific
`
` 8 component 16. That's what I'm trying to clarify.
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Okay.
`
`All right. So let's now go back to the
`
` 12 other question I was asking --
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`-- which is where you say at the end of
`
` 15 paragraph 127, are you proposing a combination here
`
` 16 where the Shelton stapler would utilize the platform
`
` 17 wrist mechanism that's described in Wallace?
`
` 18
`
`A.
`
`I'm -- yes, so Wallace would provide a
`
` 19 longitudinal -- an axis -- Wallace articulation
`
` 20 would create an axis transverse to the longitudinal
`
` 21 tool if that were -- if that were included in a
`
` 22 combination with Shelton.
`
` 23
`
`Q.
`
`So if someone were to use the platform
`
` 24 wrist mechanism in Wallace with the Shelton stapler,
`
` 25 you're saying that would be -- allow you to
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 18
`
` 1 articulate transverse?
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`That's what you're saying?
`
`That's what I'm saying.
`
`Is it your position that somebody would --
`
` 6 a person of ordinary skill in the art would use the
`
` 7 platform wrist mechanism in Wallace with the Shelton
`
` 8 stapler?
`
` 9
`
`A.
`
`I didn't really -- I didn't consider the
`
` 10 question from that perspective. It wasn't a
`
` 11 question of would. It was a question of could.
`
` 12
`
`Q.
`
`Have you explained here in your declaration
`
` 13 how the Shelton stapler with the platform wrist
`
` 14 mechanism of Wallace would have a proximal spine
`
` 15 portion pivotally coupled to a distal spine portion
`
` 16 at an articulation joint?
`
` 17
`
`A.
`
`Once, again, it might be faster if you
`
` 18 point to where you're -- which claim are you referring
`
` 19 to?
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Well, I'm talking about limitation 24.2.2 --
`
`Okay.
`
`-- and your only paragraph about that is
`
` 23 paragraph 127.
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`Okay.
`
`And so do you think you've explained here
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 19
`
` 1 how the Shelton stapler with the Wallace platform
`
` 2 wrist would have a proximal spine portion pivotally
`
` 3 coupled to a distal spine portion at an articulation
`
` 4 joint?
`
` 5
`
`A.
`
`The Wallace articulation joint has
`
` 6 something beyond it that it's driving, and if we
`
` 7 look at Wallace --
`
` 8
`
`Q.
`
`Well, before you do that, before you -- I'll
`
` 9 let you do that in a second.
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yeah.
`
`Okay. But first answer my question. Do
`
` 12 you think you've explained that here in paragraph 127?
`
` 13
`
`A.
`
`I think it -- I think I explained it to
`
` 14 the -- I guess it seemed obvious to me.
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`You're not answering my question.
`
`Okay.
`
`My question is do you think you've
`
` 18 explained it here in paragraph 127?
`
` 19
`
`A.
`
`I felt that I -- 127 was clear in my
`
` 20 intention.
`
` 21
`
`Q.
`
`You think it's clear in paragraph 127 that
`
` 22 you've explained how the Shelton stapler with the
`
` 23 Wallace platform wrist has a proximal spine portion
`
` 24 pivotally coupled to a distal spine portion at an
`
` 25 articulation joint?
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 20
`
` 1
`
`A.
`
`What I wrote I felt was sufficient for
`
` 2 someone to look at then what does Wallace have?
`
` 3 What does Shelton have? And that the combination
`
` 4 met the limitations of that claim.
`
` 5
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Where in Wallace have you pointed
`
` 6 us to?
`
` 7
`
`A.
`
`I didn't specifically point to Wallace. I
`
` 8 didn't try to identify a component by number that
`
` 9 said this is the distal spine portion.
`
` 10
`
`Q.
`
`We talked about Wallace a bit yesterday.
`
` 11 I don't remember if we covered this or not. You'd
`
` 12 agree that the purpose of Wallace is to provide a
`
` 13 platform wrist mechanism that provides three degrees
`
` 14 of movement of an end effector?
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
`MR. KATZ: Objection to form.
`
`A.
`
`I don't -- I don't recall that statement
`
` 17 being made, no. Three degrees of freedom.
`
` 18
`
`Q.
`
`You don't recall that being said in
`
` 19 Wallace?
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22 I?
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Three degrees of freedom, no, that's --
`
`I didn't say three degrees of freedom, did
`
`You just did, yes.
`
`I said three degrees of movement.
`
`Okay.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
` 3 freedom.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 21
`
`Okay. Does that change -- does it matter?
`
`Well, I think of a wrist as two degrees of
`
` 4
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. I didn't use the word "freedom";
`
` 5 so, I'll try again.
`
` 6
`
`You would agree that the purpose of
`
` 7 Wallace is to provide a platform wrist mechanism
`
` 8 that provides three degrees of movement of an end
`
` 9 effector?
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
`MR. KATZ: Objection to form.
`
`A.
`
`I don't really understand the question
`
` 12 or -- yeah, I don't understand what you're saying.
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. You read Wallace; right?
`
`Yes, I did.
`
`All right. So why don't we take a look at
`
` 16 it. Column two.
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`The bottom of column two, and you see it
`
` 19 says "Manipulation and control of these end
`
` 20 effectors is a critical aspect of robotic surgical
`
` 21 systems."
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`I do see that. Mm-hmm.
`
`Okay. And then it talks about providing a
`
` 25 surgical tool which includes mechanisms to provide
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 22
`
` 1 three degrees of rotational movement of an end
`
` 2 effector.
`
` 3
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`I do see that.
`
`You understand what that means?
`
`I do in this context. It's much more
`
` 7 clear than what I thought I heard you say before.
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`Q.
`
`Oh, okay.
`
`So now you agree that the purpose of this
`
` 10 patent is to provide a mechanism that provides three
`
` 11 degrees of rotational movement for an end effector
`
` 12 for a robotic surgical system; correct?
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
`MR. KATZ: Objection to form.
`
`You may answer.
`
`A.
`
`The entire device has three degrees of
`
` 16 motion, yes. The articulation is not providing
`
` 17 three degrees of motion.
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`The third degree is the shaft roll?
`
`Exactly. That's what's confusing me.
`
`Okay. And the way that Wallace
`
` 21 accomplishes providing that three degrees of
`
` 22 movement is to have a shaft roll and a platform
`
` 23 wrist; right?
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`That is correct, I believe.
`
`Wallace illustrates a tool base that
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 23
`
` 1 mounts to the robotic system and includes a drive
`
` 2 system for an end effector; right?
`
` 3
`
`A.
`
`Yes, Wallace has a tool base for
`
` 4 connection to a robotic surgical system that drives
`
` 5 the instruments, yes.
`
` 6
`
`Q.
`
`And it's illustrated in Figures 26 to 30;
`
` 7 right. That's the tool base?
`
` 8
`
`A.
`
`You can see a portion of the tool base in
`
` 9 28 and 29. It is more clear in 27 and 30, yes.
`
` 10
`
`Q.
`
`And 26 too; right? I think they're all
`
` 11 just different views of the same tool base; right?
`
` 12
`
`A.
`
`Yes. Basically, yes, I think so. I think
`
` 13 so.
`
` 14
`
`Is 62 is that what he calls it, a tool
`
` 15 base?
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21 62.
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I think so.
`
`I just don't want to use the wrong term.
`
`You can check. Yeah, column 7.
`
`Column 7.
`
`Right around line 37, it says tool base,
`
`Thirty-seven.
`
`You can also see in the figures, the
`
` 24 description of the figures in column 7. There's say
`
` 25 Figure 26, they're all --
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`Okay.
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 24
`
`-- referring to the tool base; right?
`
`Okay. Linkage 62. And then it's a little
`
` 4 bit weird. It talks about linkage 62.
`
` 5
`
`Q.
`
`Right. If you just look at the description
`
` 6 of Figures 26 to 30 on column 7, you'll see that
`
` 7 they're referring to a tool base. Column 7.
`
` 8 I think you're in the wrong -- you're in the wrong
`
` 9 place.
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`That's what was throwing me off.
`
`You've gone too far into your binder now.
`
`Yeah, I'd gone into Tierney. I'm like,
`
` 13 boy, I'm just not seeing what you're saying.
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Sorry.
`
`Boy, I'm really confused.
`
`That's okay.
`
`Okay. Let me try again. Coupled to tool
`
` 18 base 62, yes, it is clear now. Thank you.
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`Q.
`
`No problem.
`
`All right. So the tool base that's shown
`
` 21 in Figures 26 to 30 of Wallace is not designed to
`
` 22 drive an endocutter that clamps and fires; correct?
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is correct.
`
`Okay. The motions that are provided in
`
` 25 this tool base are articulation of the platform
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 25
`
` 1 wrist and a shaft roll; correct?
`
` 2
`
`A.
`
`No. I think there's also an actuation to
`
` 3 actuate an end effector.
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Are you sure about that?
`
`I'm not sure. That's why I say I think
`
` 6 there's an actuation as well.
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
`I don't --
`
`Q.
`
`Well, I don't think there is, so by my
`
` 9 read of Wallace, there are -- that tool base
`
` 10 performs, as it's shown and described, performs the
`
` 11 shaft roll and the articulation.
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
` 16 yourself.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you want to check that for yourself?
`
`No, that's fine.
`
`No, I actually need you to check for
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`If that's what you believe.
`
`I want to know what you believe.
`
`MR. KATZ: Objection. Asked and answered.
`
`A.
`
`I just want to see -- because Wallace
`
` 21 shows, for example, in Figure 6B --
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Right. So I agree --
`
`-- Wallace shows --
`
`Go ahead.
`
`-- it shows a jaw to be actuated in
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
` 1 Figure 6B.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 26
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`Do you agree that that's a jaw?
`
`Q.
`
`I agree that's a jaw. I don't agree that
`
` 4 Wallace discloses a tool base that actuates that.
`
` 5 So that's my question to you.
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`So the same as 2A; right?
`
`All right. So why don't we stick to one
`
` 8 question at a time.
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Sorry.
`
`Show me in Wallace where it describes the
`
` 11 tool base is actuating the jaws?
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`All right.
`
`Figure 30 -- show me what part of Figure 30
`
` 14 is actuating the jaw.
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
` 17 too, so --
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Okay. We can probably make this quicker
`
`Sure.
`
`-- there's in Figure 30, there's two
`
` 20 spools that are labeled 400. Do you see that?
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do.
`
`Okay. And those are used for the platform
`
` 23 wrist; right?
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`I believe that's correct, yes.
`
`Okay. And then there's the spool or gear,
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.026
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 27
`
` 1
`
`420.
`
`Do you see that?
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, I do.
`
`Okay. And that is described as that's for
`
` 4 shaft roll; right?
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
` 7 right?
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`Okay. So then there's one spool left;
`
`That is correct.
`
`And that --
`
`Not numbered.
`
`And that doesn't have any mechanisms
`
` 12 associated with it; right?
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Not in this figure; that's correct.
`
`Does it have any in Figures 26, 28 -- oh
`
` 15 sorry -- Figures 26, 27, 28 or 29?
`
` 16
`
`A.
`
`I do not see the fourth spool being
`
` 17 connected to anything --
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`-- in those figures.
`
`All right. And so then you would agree
`
` 21 that the tool base that's shown in Figures 26 to 30
`
` 22 does not illustrate or show how you would drive the
`
` 23 actuation of jaws; correct?
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`1-800-FOR-DEPO
`
`That is correct.
`
`Okay. And are you aware of any description
`
`Alderson Court Reporting
`
`www.AldersonReporting.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2011.027
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-01247
`
`
`
`Bryan Knodel, Ph.D.
`
`Boston, MA
`
`4/4/2019
`Page 28
`
` 1 in Wallace of how the actuation of the jaws would be
`
` 2 accomplished?
`
` 3
`
`A.
`
`I'm not aware of that. I know that
`
` 4 Wallace shows jaws. We agree with that, but I don't
`
` 5 recall -- I'd have to look to see through the
`
` 6 reference to see if he ever describes that.
`
` 7
`
`Q.
`
`Why don't you take a moment to see if you
`
` 8 can figure that out.
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
`(Pause.)
`
`A.
`
`So Wallace identifies the grasping jaws
`
` 11 and a whole bunch of other actuatable or devices
`
` 12 that would require actuation in column 7, around
`
` 13 line 48.
`
` 14
`
`So clearly Wallace is contemplating
`
` 15 actuating devices that require actuation, but, I
`
` 16 don't see -- he doesn't point to a figure where he
`
` 17 actually shows that connection.
`
` 18
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. So in Figures 2A and, for example,
`
` 19 Figure 6B, and there's some description
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