RIMFROST AS VS.
`AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`STEPHEN TALLON
`April 2, 2019
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`Original File 265062.TXT
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 1
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`AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`STEPHEN TALLON
`April 2, 2019
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`Original File 265062.TXT
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 1
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`1
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` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` 3 RIMFROST AS,
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` 4 Petitioner,
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` 5 -against-
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` 6 AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS,
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` 7 Patent Owner.
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` 8 Case No. IPR2018-01178
` U.S. Patent 9,375,453
` 9 Issue Date: June 28, 2016
` Title: Methods for Producing Bioeffective Krill
`10 Oil Compositions
` ------------------------------------------------x
`11
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`12 4 Campus Drive
` Parsippany, New Jersey
`13
` April 2, 2019
`14 8:54 a.m.
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`15
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`16 Deposition of STEPHEN TALLON taken before
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`17 Danielle Grant, a Notary Public of the States of
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`18 New York, New Jersey, and Delaware.
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`19
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`21
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`22
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`23 ELLEN GRAUER COURT REPORTING CO., LLC
` 126 East 56th Street, Fifth Floor
`24 New York, New York 10022
` 212-750-6434
`25 REF: 265062
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 2
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` 1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
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` 3 HOFFMANN & BARON, LLP
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` 4 Attorneys for Petitioner
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` 5 6 Campus Drive
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` 6 Parsippany, New Jersey 07054
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` 7 BY: MICHAEL I. CHAKANSKY, ESQ.
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` 8 JAMES F. HARRINGTON, ESQ.
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` 9 mchakansky@hbiplaw.com
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`10
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`11
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`12 CASIMIR JONES, S.C.
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`13 Attorneys for Patent Owner
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`14 2275 Deming Way, Suite 310
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`15 Middleton, Wisconsin 53562
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`16 BY: J. MITCHELL JONES, ESQ.
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`17 jmjones@casimirjones.com
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 3
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` 1 ------------------- I N D E X -------------------
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` 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
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` 3 STEPHEN J. TALLON MR. JONES 4
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` 6 ---------------- E X H I B I T S ----------------
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` 7 TALLON DESCRIPTION FOR I.D.
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`10 (NO EXHIBITS MARKED)
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 4
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` 1 D R. S T E P H E N J. T A L L O N, called
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` 2 as a witness, having been first duly sworn
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` 3 by Danielle Grant, a Notary Public within
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` 4 and for the State of New Jersey, was
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` 5 examined and testified as follows:
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` 6
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` 7 EXAMINATION BY
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` 8 MR. JONES:
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` 9 Q Good morning, Dr. Tallon.
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`10 A Good morning.
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`11 Q So this is -- I don't know how
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`12 many depositions we've done now, but you're --
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`13 A Four.
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`14 Q You're familiar with the rules of
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`15 depositions?
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`16 A Yes.
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`17 Q Do you need any refreshing on
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`18 that?
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`19 A No, I think I'm okay.
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`20 Q Okay. Great. Is there any
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`21 reason that you can't testify today?
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`22 A Nope.
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`23 Q Okay. Great. So as we're doing
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`24 these exhibits, we don't mark these because
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`25 we're in a deposition. They're provided in the
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 5
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`5
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 patent office. So the first exhibit I'm going
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` 3 to give you is Exhibit 1006, and it's
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` 4 Declaration of Dr. Steven J. Tallon for IPR
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` 5 201801178 and IPR 201801179 related to U.S.
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` 6 Patent No. 9375453.
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` 7 A Okay.
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` 8 Q Do you recognize that to be the
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` 9 declaration you prepared for those two IPRs?
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`10 A That's correct.
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`11 Q Okay. Great. So during the
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`12 deposition today, you can feel free to refer
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`13 back to that. I'm going to be asking you a
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`14 number of questions about exhibits that are
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`15 referred to in the declaration. Since I'm
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`16 asking those questions, feel free to look back
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`17 in here if you need to while you're answering
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`18 those questions.
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`19 A Okay.
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`20 Q The next exhibit, Rimfrost 1037,
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`21 and it's a reference referred to as Breivik 2 in
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`22 your declaration; is that correct?
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`23 MR. CHAKANSKY: You can check
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`24 that in the exhibits, and they'll tell
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`25 you.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 6
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`6
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 Do you have a page of his
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` 3 declaration that we can look at just
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` 4 to make sure it's Breivik 2?
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` 5 THE WITNESS: There should be a
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` 6 list at the front.
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` 7 A Here we go. From what I see,
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` 8 it's consistent with Breivik 2, yes. It
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` 9 actually may be Breivik 3, but it's the third of
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`10 the Breivik.
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`11 Q Yeah, if you refer to
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`12 Exhibit 119 -- sorry, it's at Page 119 of your
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`13 declaration.
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`14 MR. CHAKANSKY: The declaration
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`15 is Exhibit 1006.
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`16 Q Yeah, 1006.
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`17 A Okay. We're all good.
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`18 Q So Breivik 2 is 1037.
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`19 A Okay.
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`20 Q And do you recall that you, in
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`21 your declaration, utilized Breivik 2 as the
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`22 first reference in each of the obviousness --
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`23 grounds for obviousness that you proposed?
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`24 MR. CHAKANSKY: Want to direct
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`25 him to the page of the declaration
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 7
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`7
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 that's a ground?
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` 3 A If you can show me.
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` 4 Q Yeah, so you can either look at
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` 5 Page 6 of your declaration --
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` 6 MR. CHAKANSKY: Page 6.
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` 7 Q -- which is the table of contents
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` 8 listing petition grounds.
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` 9 MR. CHAKANSKY: Petition grounds
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`10 are on Page 246.
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`11 A Yes. That's correct. It's used
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`12 in all of the grounds.
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`13 Q Okay. I'm going to first ask you
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`14 a series of questions about the examples in
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`15 Breivik 2 and the examples specifically begin on
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`16 Page 6.
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`17 MR. CHAKANSKY: Look at whatever
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`18 you need to in the document.
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`19 A Yeah, if you want to ask a
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`20 question, I'll --
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`21 Q Okay, great. So, Doctor, I'll
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`22 direct your attention to Page 7 of Breivik 2,
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`23 Exhibit 1037, and Example 1.
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`24 A Okay.
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`25 Q So that --
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 8
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`8
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 MR. CHAKANSKY: This is Example
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` 3 1?
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` 4 MR. JONES: Yeah, pages 6 to 7.
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` 5 Q So the first example uses
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` 6 freeze-dried krill, correct?
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` 7 A Yes, it refers to freeze-dried
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` 8 krill at the start of the example.
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` 9 Q And is there any disclosure of
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`10 heating the freeze-dried krill in that example?
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`11 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to
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`12 form.
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`13 A I'm sorry. What do you mean?
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`14 I'm sorry. What exactly are you asking?
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`15 Q Is there a step for heating the
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`16 freeze-dried krill in Example 1?
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`17 A The example itself doesn't talk
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`18 about anything done to the freeze-dried krill,
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`19 but I would need to look through the whole
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`20 context of the patent to see if there was any
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`21 indication of whether it had been.
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`22 Q Okay. Let's move on to Example
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`23 2. Example 2 is on Page 7 and ends on Page 8 of
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`24 Exhibit 1037. Actually, take some time to
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`25 review that example.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 9
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`9
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 A Okay. I've reviewed Example 2.
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` 3 Q Example 2 starts off by
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` 4 describing the fresh E. superba (200 grams) was
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` 5 washed with ethanol; is that correct?
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` 6 A That's how it starts.
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` 7 Q And what is your understanding
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` 8 of -- or how would a person of skill in the
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` 9 arts' understanding -- strike that.
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`10 How with a person of skill in the
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`11 art -- I don't know how to ask this question.
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`12 From the standpoint of a person with skill in
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`13 the art what, what is fresh E. superba in this
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`14 example?
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`15 A Again, I would need to review the
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`16 full spec to see if there was any other contents
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`17 that Breivik gives around what they did in
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`18 Example 2. But from a starting standpoint,
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`19 Fresh E superba is going to be material that's,
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`20 you know, recently from the ocean or in a state
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`21 that's still fresh where it hasn't decomposed.
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`22 Q Okay. And does Example 2 of 1037
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`23 describe a heating step for the fresh E.
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`24 superba?
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`25 A Not specifically within the
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 10
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 example text.
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` 3 Q Let's move on to Example 3. Let
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` 4 me know when you've had time to review that.
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` 5 A Okay.
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` 6 Q And does Example 3 describe any
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` 7 heating of the fresh E. superba?
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` 8 A Not specifically within the text
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` 9 of the example.
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`10 Q Let's move on to Example 4, Page
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`11 8 of Exhibit 1037. Same question, does that
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`12 example describe any heating of the fresh E.
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`13 superba?
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`14 MR. CHAKANSKY: Take a look at
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`15 the example first.
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`16 A Which one, Example 4?
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`17 Q Example 4.
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`18 A Again, in isolation, the example
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`19 text itself doesn't describe it, but from
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`20 recollection, Breivik does talk about the heat
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`21 treatment of the product for these examples. So
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`22 there's going to be -- there's going to be a lot
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`23 of stuff that needs to be taken in context to,
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`24 you know, understand what Breivik is talking
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`25 about.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 11
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 Q Okay. So let's move on to
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` 3 Example 5. It's on pages 8 to 9 of Exhibit
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` 4 1037, and let me know when you've had time to
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` 5 review that example.
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` 6 A Okay.
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` 7 Q Example 5 of Exhibit 1037, does
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` 8 that example describe heating of the fresh E.
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` 9 superba?
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`10 A Example 5 doesn't, but later
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`11 examples do indicate that the previous ones, you
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`12 know, including Example 5, have a heat treatment
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`13 stip.
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`14 Q Okay. We'll get to that in just
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`15 a second.
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`16 And in Example 5 -- so Page 8 of
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`17 Exhibit 1037 and Example 5 at lines 32 to 33, do
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`18 you see it says the exacted -- the extracted
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`19 whole krill was completely white except for the
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`20 black eyes?
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`21 A I see that.
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`22 Q So from that, can you conclude
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`23 that they were extracting -- that the fresh E.
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`24 superba referred to in the exam was whole krill?
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`25 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection. Lack
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 12
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 of foundation.
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` 3 A I'm sorry. What was the question
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` 4 again?
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` 5 Q You see that it says the
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` 6 extracted whole krill was completely white
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` 7 except for the black eyes?
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` 8 A Okay.
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` 9 Q From that, can you conclude that
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`10 the fresh E. superba utilized was whole krill?
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`11 MR. CHAKANSKY: Same objection.
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`12 Objection. Form.
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`13 A I would conclude from that, that
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`14 at least in some stage of the process the krill
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`15 were whole, especially when they came out of the
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`16 sea, but it doesn't specifically say the
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`17 material was processed as a whole material. You
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`18 would have to look more at the context of the
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`19 patent to, you know, understand exactly what
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`20 they were talking about.
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`21 Q Well, what do you think they're
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`22 talking about when they state that the extracted
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`23 whole krill was completely white except for the
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`24 black eyes?
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`25 A The components, the idea that
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 13
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 after extraction, the material that's left is
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` 3 white. And that -- then that enough of an
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` 4 intake state that you can distinguish black eyes
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` 5 within it. I wouldn't necessarily conclude that
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` 6 they still look like whole krill. They were
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` 7 whole krill -- that talks about extraction of
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` 8 whole krill. But whole krill means, to my mind,
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` 9 taking the whole organism and performing an
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`10 extraction on it.
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`11 Q Okay, let's move on to Example 6,
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`12 Page 9 of Exhibit 1037.
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`13 A Okay.
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`14 Q And just a minute ago with
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`15 respect to Example 5, I believe you testified
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`16 that Example 6 indicated that the material in
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`17 Example 5 had been heated?
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`18 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection.
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`19 Misstates his prior testimony.
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`20 A No. I was referring to Example
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`21 8, and Example 8 indicates that some of the
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`22 previous examples to Example 8 included heat
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`23 treatment.
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`24 Q And does Exhibit 8 refer to
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`25 Example 5?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 14
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 A Give me a moment to read Example
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` 3 8.
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` 4 I'm sorry. Does it refer to
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` 5 Example 5 or 6?
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` 6 Q Yeah, does it indicate that there
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` 7 is any heating step in Example 5?
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` 8 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to
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` 9 form.
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`10 A Not in Example 5. It's just
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`11 making a general comparison to other examples
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`12 that do and don't have heat treatment.
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`13 Q Okay. So Example 6, is that --
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`14 on Page 9 of Exhibit 1037, does that include a
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`15 heating step of the fresh E. superba?
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`16 A Yes. It refers to pretreating
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`17 the raw material at 80 degrees for five minutes.
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`18 Q And does it describe how it was
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`19 heated to 80 degrees for five minutes, the raw
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`20 material -- strike that.
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`21 Does Example 6 describe how the
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`22 raw material was heated to 80 degrees for five
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`23 minutes?
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`24 A The example itself doesn't, but
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`25 the other content of the patent they do.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 15
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 Q Are you aware of any other place
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` 3 in the patent that describes how the heating
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` 4 step is done?
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` 5 MR. CHAKANSKY: I think he should
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` 6 look at the whole document.
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` 7 Q Look at it.
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` 8 A Would you like me to review the
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` 9 whole document?
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`10 Q Yeah.
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`11 A Could you repeat the question?
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`12 MR. JONES: Could you read it
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`13 back.
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`14 (The requested portion of the record was
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`15 read back.)
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`16 A Could you describe what you mean
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`17 by how it was done? Presumably by applying
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`18 heat, but I guess that's not your question.
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`19 Q What equipment was used? The
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`20 specific steps used to heat the material.
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`21 A There's a few places where
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`22 Breivik talks about the heating process. Some
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`23 of it is in the introductory material of the
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`24 patent where he talks about a range of times and
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`25 temperatures that are applied. And there is a
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 16
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 bit in Example 8 where essentially Breivik is
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` 3 just saying that -- using methods that were
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` 4 well-known in the art.
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` 5 Q Where does it specifically say
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` 6 methods well-known in the art in Breivik 2?
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` 7 A I'm looking at, for example,
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` 8 Example 8.
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` 9 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection.
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`10 Objection to the form of the question.
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`11 You can go ahead and answer. I'm
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`12 sorry.
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`13 A Can you repeat the question for
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`14 me again?
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`15 Q Where, specifically, in Exhibit
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`16 1037 does it say that the material is heated by
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`17 well-known methods in the art?
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`18 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection. Lack
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`19 of foundation.
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`20 A Trying to answer the question, I
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`21 was referring earlier to the second part of
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`22 Example 8. And I guess, for example, starting
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`23 on Page 10, where he's describing, in this case,
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`24 the heat treatment that they used. And starting
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`25 at the end of line 1, it says a person known in
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 17
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 the art will realize that exact heating times
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` 3 are difficult to monitor for large volumes of
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` 4 biological material, thus the heating time may
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` 5 vary depending on the amount of krill that is to
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` 6 be processed at a specific time. And also the
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` 7 temperatures used for preheating is not limited
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` 8 to the temperature given in the examples. So --
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` 9 well, in general, just referring to, you know,
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`10 the procedures needed to do the heating were a
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`11 reasonably well-established process.
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`12 He's not describing whether it
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`13 was a square tank or a round tank that the krill
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`14 was put in. But, you know, those -- the actual
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`15 process and methods and equipment are not -- are
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`16 not a novel part of Breivik's invention that was
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`17 well-established.
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`18 Q Is heating a novel part of
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`19 Breivik's invention?
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`20 A You want me to read through it
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`21 again? It comes onto the claims as a component
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`22 of the invention. But he's, you know,
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`23 describing that, you know, a lot of the elements
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`24 are well-known components.
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`25 Q And doesn't Breivik state that
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 18
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 it's difficult to monitor -- or exact heating
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` 3 times are difficult to monitor for large volumes
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` 4 of biological material on Page 10 of Exhibit
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` 5 1037?
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` 6 MR. CHAKANSKY: Are you asking
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` 7 him whether that says --
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` 8 Q Yeah.
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` 9 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'll object. The
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`10 document speaks for itself.
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`11 A You know, point me to exactly
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`12 where you're looking at? Which line?
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`13 Q Yeah, let me restate the
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`14 question. So -- no, that's all right. I think
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`15 I'll go with -- okay. Let's go to Example 7
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`16 then.
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`17 MR. CHAKANSKY: Seven?
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`18 Q Yeah, Example 7, Page 9 of 1037?
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`19 A Okay.
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`20 Q And does Example 7 disclose a
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`21 heating step for the raw material, or the fresh
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`22 E. superba?
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`23 A This says the fresh E. superba
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`24 was heated to 80 degrees.
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`25 Q And do you see that it says for a
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 19
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 few minutes?
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` 3 A I see that.
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` 4 Q And so what would a person with
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` 5 skill in the art understand "a few minutes" to
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` 6 be?
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` 7 A In this particular context,
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` 8 presumably, heating krill, they would understand
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` 9 it as being a few minutes.
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`10 Q Less than ten minutes?
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`11 A Certainly less than 20.
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`12 Q Is there any disclosure in the
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`13 examples of Exhibit 1037 of heating for more
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`14 than five minutes?
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`15 A I'm sorry. What was the question
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`16 again? Did you ask if --
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`17 Q Any disclosure in Examples 1
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`18 through 9 of Exhibit 1037 that disclose a
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`19 specific heating step for more than five
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`20 minutes.
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`21 MR. CHAKANSKY: And you're
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`22 limiting it just to the examples?
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`23 MR. JONES: Just to the examples.
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`24 MR. HARRINGON: Other than what
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`25 he's already testified to?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 20
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 A So Example 6 and 7 that we've
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` 3 covered refer to the heat treatment for five
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` 4 minutes, and a few minutes, as we discussed, and
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` 5 as we also talked a bit about in Example 8 is
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` 6 where they talk in general about the range of
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` 7 heating times that can be applied.
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` 8 Q So the only disclosure of heating
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` 9 in Examples 1 through 9 of an actual heating
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`10 step on fresh E. superba was either five minutes
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`11 in Example 6 or for a few minutes in Example 7;
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`12 is that correct?
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`13 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to
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`14 form.
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`15 A The only specific descriptions of
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`16 heating times, yeah, the one in Example 6 that
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`17 says for five minutes, and the one in Example 7
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`18 that says for a few minutes.
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`19 Q Okay. And then Example 7, Page 9
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`20 of Exhibit 1037, at Lines 21 to 22, do you see
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`21 where it says "the remaining krill was white
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`22 except for the dark eyes"?
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`23 A I do.
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`24 Q Okay. And then let's go over to
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`25 Example 9 on Page 10 Exhibit 1037. The line 15?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 21
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`21
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` 1 DR. TALLON
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` 2 MR. CHAKANSKY: Can he read the
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` 3 whole thing?
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` 4 Q Yeah.
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` 5 A Example 9 did you say?
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` 6 Q Yeah.
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` 7 A It's hard to tell where Example 9
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` 8 ends.
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` 9 Q Yeah, we're just looking at Lines
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`10 15 to 18 for right now, but feel free to read --
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`11 A Okay.
`
`12 Q And so lines 15 to 17 refer to
`
`13 Figures 1 and 2. Do you see that?
`
`14 A Yes.
`
`15 Q It says Figure 1 shows a picture
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`16 of fresh E. superba used as raw material for
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`17 extraction.
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`18 MR. CHAKANSKY: Is that a
`
`19 question?
`
`20 A I see that.
`
`21 Q Would a person with skill in the
`
`22 art understand Figure 1 to show whole krill?
`
`23 A The reproduction is not great in
`
`24 the patent itself. You're asking me to read too
`
`25 much into those pictures, but they, if one knew
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 22
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`
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`22
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` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 it was krill, one could probably recognize them.
`
` 3 Q Do you have any reason to doubt
`
` 4 that that's not whole E. superba that's being
`
` 5 used as a raw material for extraction?
`
` 6 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection. Form.
`
` 7 A I am aware that Breivik talks
`
` 8 about a range of different process and methods,
`
` 9 including things like, you know, taking off
`
`10 parts of the head or something, are known
`
`11 processes. But if I had to read what I could
`
`12 into those pictures, I would say that they
`
`13 represent -- while there is some apparent broken
`
`14 bits of krill, but there are some intact pieces
`
`15 as well that look like, you know, sort of almost
`
`16 recognizably as an intact krill.
`
`17 Q Okay. And then Example 9
`
`18 indicates that Figure 2 shows the raw material
`
`19 after extraction, as described in Example 7. Do
`
`20 you see that?
`
`21 A Yes.
`
`22 Q And so does Figure 2 --
`
`23 MR. CHAKANSKY: Counsel, do you
`
`24 have a better picture of this? This
`
`25 is --
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 23
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`
`
`23
`
`
` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 MR. JONES: This is your picture.
`
` 3 MR. CHAKANSKY: I got it. But
`
` 4 you're asking him to interpret a copy
`
` 5 of a picture in a patent.
`
` 6 MR. JONES: He offered an opinion
`
` 7 on this in his Declaration.
`
` 8 MR. CHAKANSKY: He never offered
`
` 9 an opinion as to what the original --
`
`10 MR. JONES: Breivik is the lead
`
`11 reference cited in every obviousness
`
`12 objection. And this is the exhibit
`
`13 that was provided with his
`
`14 Declaration. And I even went and
`
`15 printed it off last night on a
`
`16 higher-resolution printer.
`
`17 MR. CHAKANSKY: I understand
`
`18 that. But there must be better -- if
`
`19 you get into that level of detail
`
`20 where you want him to interpret for
`
`21 the first time a figure that is -- I
`
`22 don't even know if the original was in
`
`23 color or not -- we would -- it would
`
`24 be better, to get a good answer, to
`
`25 have a clear picture of what's there.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 24
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`
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`24
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`
` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 That's my objection.
`
` 3 A Well, I can only answer based on
`
` 4 what I see.
`
` 5 Q Okay. Let's go back to Example 8
`
` 6 then now, Page 9 of Exhibit 1037.
`
` 7 A Okay.
`
` 8 Q And was the fresh E. superba used
`
` 9 in Example 8 subjected to heat treatment?
`
`10 MR. CHAKANSKY: Where in Example
`
`11 8?
`
`12 MR. JONES: Example 8.
`
`13 MR. CHAKANSKY: Starting on Page
`
`14 9, right? Okay.
`
`15 A Example 8 talks about processing
`
`16 the fresh E. superba without heat treatment.
`
`17 Q Okay. I would like to direct
`
`18 your attention to Exhibit 1037 Page 2. The
`
`19 paragraph beginning at Line 6.
`
`20 A Okay.
`
`21 Q Let me know when you've had a
`
`22 chance to review the paragraph.
`
`23 A Okay.
`
`24 Q So is it fair to say that the
`
`25 process described in Exhibit 1037 was intended
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 25
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`
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`25
`
`
` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 to utilize whole fresh krill or whole body parts
`
` 3 from krill?
`
` 4 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to
`
` 5 form.
`
` 6 A The -- Breivik is stating it from
`
` 7 Line 11 that it is designed to find a process
`
` 8 that can utilize whole fresh krill or whole body
`
` 9 parts from krill.
`
`10 Q And does Breivik indicate that
`
`11 that would result in an improved product?
`
`12 A He is describing it's an improved
`
`13 method over the other methods that he's referred
`
`14 to.
`
`15 Q Okay. I would like to direct
`
`16 your attention back to Example 9?
`
`17 MR. CHAKANSKY: What page is
`
`18 that?
`
`19 MR. JONES: Page 10 of Exhibit
`
`20 1037.
`
`21 MR. CHAKANSKY: Thank you.
`
`22 Q And then beginning at Line 21 of
`
`23 Example 9, Breivik states that "this is a very
`
`24 different krill meal produced according to
`
`25 traditional processes where substantially all
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 26
`
`
`
`26
`
`
` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 the phospholipid fraction will remain in the
`
` 3 meal giving rise to oxidized polymerized
`
` 4 material."
`
` 5 Do you see that?
`
` 6 A I see that.
`
` 7 Q And what is -- what would a
`
` 8 POSITA's -- what would a person of skill in the
`
` 9 art's understanding be of krill meal produced
`
`10 according to traditional processes?
`
`11 A A PHOSITA would -- you have
`
`12 reference in Breivik, and descriptions of that
`
`13 that would -- I guess the first point of context
`
`14 for someone looking at it.
`
`15 Q And would the person with skill
`
`16 in the art understand krill meal according to
`
`17 traditional processes to have oxidized and
`
`18 polymerized material?
`
`19 A Not to all traditional processes.
`
`20 Breivik would be referring to some selective
`
`21 traditional processes. The ones that he's
`
`22 comparing his invention to. He or she. I don't
`
`23 know if it's --
`
`24 Q Does Breivik draw any distinction
`
`25 between the traditional processes?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 27
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`
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`27
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`
` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 A It's pretty open-ended. It could
`
` 3 be a range of different traditional processes.
`
` 4 Are there any specific ones you want me to --
`
` 5 Q I'm trying to understand what
`
` 6 Breivik says.
`
` 7 MR. CHAKANSKY: Is there a
`
` 8 question?
`
` 9 Q What would a person of skill in
`
`10 the art understand oxidized and polymerized
`
`11 material in krill meal to be?
`
`12 A The specific parts of, you know,
`
`13 where he's describing the oxidized and
`
`14 polymerized stuff, you want me to refer to it?
`
`15 He talks about it in a few different places.
`
`16 Q So it would be the disclosure in
`
`17 Breivik.
`
`18 A I'm sorry. What was the
`
`19 question?
`
`20 Q Your understanding of oxidized
`
`21 and polymerized materials in krill meal is
`
`22 limited to what's disclosed in Breivik?
`
`23 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to
`
`24 form.
`
`25 A I'm sorry. What do you mean?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 28
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`
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`28
`
`
` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 MR. HARRINGON: Is that a
`
` 3 question?
`
` 4 Q Yeah. Is your understanding of
`
` 5 oxidized and polymerized material present in
`
` 6 krill meal limited to the disclosure in Breivik
`
` 7 2?
`
` 8 A You're asking me if oxidation and
`
` 9 polymerization normally occurs in the ways that
`
`10 Breivik refers to?
`
`11 Q No. Is your understanding of
`
`12 oxidized and polymerized material present in
`
`13 krill meal limited to the disclosure in Breivik
`
`14 2?
`
`15 A Yeah, I'm not sure I understand
`
`16 the question. Sorry.
`
`17 Q Okay. So I'll start again.
`
`18 MR. HARRINGON: Try to rephrase.
`
`19 Q Yeah, I'll try to go back to the
`
`20 original question. What would a person of skill
`
`21 in the art understand oxidized and polymerized
`
`22 material in krill -- oxidized and polymerized
`
`23 material in krill meal to be?
`
`24 A Well, one aspect that a POSITA
`
`25 would draw from is what Breivik, you know,
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 Page 29
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`29
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` 1 DR. TALLON
`
` 2 writes himself. And to be clear, he's talking
`
` 3 about -- coming back to your questions about
`
` 4 traditional products and things, and a lot of
`
` 5 what Breivik is comparing it to is krill meal
`
` 6 and the processes to make meal for feeding to
`
` 7 other fish. It's not relating to the, you know,
`
` 8 sort of quality oil extraction, which he's
`
` 9 describing in the invention.
`
`10 Q Okay. And I would like to direct
`
`11
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