UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`NICHIA CORPORATION and :
`EVERLIGHT ELECTRONICS :
`CO., LTD., : Case No.
` Petitioners, : IPR2018-01165
` v. : Patent No. 7,524,087 B1
`DOCUMENT SECURITY : IPR2018-01166
`SYSTEMS INC., : Patent No. 7,256,486 B2
` Patent Owner. :
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
` Deposition of
` JAMES R. SHEALY, PH.D.
` New York, New York
` Monday, February 25, 2019
` 9:14 a.m.
` Job No.: 224387
` Pages: 1 - 82
` Reported By: Nancy Mahoney, CCR/RPR
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`Patent Owner's Exhibit 2016
`Page 1 of 84
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`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`NICHIA CORPORATION and :
`EVERLIGHT ELECTRONICS :
`CO., LTD., : Case No.
` Petitioners, : IPR2018-01165
` v. : Patent No. 7,524,087 B1
`DOCUMENT SECURITY : IPR2018-01166
`SYSTEMS INC., : Patent No. 7,256,486 B2
` Patent Owner. :
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
` Deposition of
` JAMES R. SHEALY, PH.D.
` New York, New York
` Monday, February 25, 2019
` 9:14 a.m.
` Job No.: 224387
` Pages: 1 - 82
` Reported By: Nancy Mahoney, CCR/RPR
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`Transcript of James R. Shealy, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 25, 2019
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`2
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` Deposition of JAMES R. SHEALY, PH.D., held at
`the offices of:
`
` Shearman & Sterling LLP
` 599 Lexington Avenue
` New York, New York 10022
` 212.848.4000
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Nancy Mahoney,
`Notary Public in and for the state of New York.
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`Transcript of James R. Shealy, Ph.D.
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS AND THE WITNESS:
` PATRICK R. COLSHER, ESQUIRE
` patrick.colsher@shearman.com
` SHEARMAN & STERLING LLP
` 599 Lexington Avenue
` New York, New York 10022
` 212.848.4000
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` WAYNE HELGE, ESQUIRE
` whelge@dbjg.com
` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY LLP
` 8300 Greensboro Drive
` McLean, Virginia 22101
` 571.765.7700
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`Transcript of James R. Shealy, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 25, 2019
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`4
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF JAMES R. SHEALY, PH.D. PAGE
`By Mr. Helge 5
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached to transcript)
`
` JAMES R. SHEALY, PH.D. PAGE
`
` Exhibit Drawing with Fig. 1, Fig 2, 33
` Fig 3
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`5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` JAMES R. SHEALY, PH.D.
`after having been first duly sworn or affirmed to
`testify to the truth, was examined and
`testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT
`OWNER BY WAYNE HELGE:
` Q Good morning, Doctor.
` A Good morning.
` Q Could you please state your name for the
`record.
` A James R. Shealy.
` Q And, Dr. Shealy, you're here for a
`deposition in two IPR cases. For the purposes of
`today's deposition, I'll refer to them as IPR 1165
`and IPR 1166.
` Does that make sense to you?
` A Yes, it does.
` Q If there's any ambiguity about any of the
`questions I ask you today, I'll ask you to please
`ask me to clarify. Otherwise, I'll assume that
`you understood the question and were able to
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`Transcript of James R. Shealy, Ph.D.
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`6
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`answer it without a problem.
` Is that understood?
` A Yes.
` Q Doctor, you submitted a declaration in
`both IPR 1165 and IPR 1166, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And you have a copy of those declarations
`sitting in front of you right now, correct?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Did you review those declarations in
`preparation for today's deposition?
` A Yes, I did.
` Q Did you find any errors in either
`declaration during this review process in
`preparation for today's deposition?
` A There is a couple of mistakes in my CV
`which we could correct. It wouldn't take long to
`do if you think it's necessary.
` Q Well, I'll ask you this. Did you spot any
`errors in the enumerated paragraphs of your
`declaration submitted in either IPR 1165 or IPR
`1166 during this review?
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`Transcript of James R. Shealy, Ph.D.
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` A The text in the paragraphs represent my
`opinions.
` Q And you stand by that testimony today?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Doctor, I'm going to hand you a copy of
`the '087 patent which is at issue in IPR 1165.
` Dr. Shealy, if you turn as well to page 10
`of your declaration in IPR 1165, you will see
`annotations of Figure 1 and Figure 2 from the '087
`patent, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q Doctor, if you turn back one page to
`Paragraph 25 of your declaration, there you begin
`a discussion of the '087 patent, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And this is under a heading Summary of the
`'087 Patent, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q If you go down about six or seven lines,
`you talk about plastics used in LED housings being
`susceptible to moisture absorption, correct?
` A That's correct.
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` Q Do you agree that at the time of the '087
`patent filing the problem of plastics being
`susceptible to moisture absorption was a problem
`in LED housings?
` A Yes, and probably a problem in broader
`fields as well, but moisture is a problem with
`these assemblies.
` Q So you agree with the '087 patent's
`discussion that plastics used in LED housings were
`susceptible to moisture absorption, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And how does the '087 patent address that
`problem of moisture absorption in LED housings?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Well, it's described in Paragraph 26 how
`the '087 patent describes solving these problems.
`So it really is a description of Figure 1 and
`Figure 2 of the patent.
` Q According to your understanding of the
`'087 patent, how do the embodiments of Figure 1
`and Figure 2 of the '087 patent remedy or address
`the problem of moisture absorption in LED
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`housings?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Well, they -- as discussed in the
`description of this patent, they have a variety of
`features in the LED packaging assembly that would
`address this. This is how the patent describes
`addressing these problems. I mean, you know, I
`could read the patent, but I don't believe they
`have any definitive, you know, discussion of we
`use this kind of plastic which is known to be a
`very good moisture barrier, for example. There's
`no discussion like that.
` It's really the assembly is described and
`that assembly addresses these problems. There's a
`little bit of a disconnect.
` I think, although I don't see it in this
`part of the declaration, there's cavities which
`the LEDs are -- there's a -- one of the cavities
`the LEDs are placed in, the cavity in the top
`surface, and somewhere there's a discussion of
`putting a protective -- I think they refer to it
`as resin, I think they also mention silicone,
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`which is probably the most common material used in
`LED assemblies.
` So that certainly would address protection
`of the LED from moisture, but they also describe
`protection needed for the leads.
` So the way I interpret this is that
`they're trying to -- at least in one of the claims
`anyway -- they're trying to limit the deflection
`of the leads, and limiting that motion presumably
`will help prevent moisture from infusing into the
`packaging and then damaging either the leads, the
`bond wire, the LED, they don't really say, but
`moisture in there is generally considered to be a
`bad thing.
` Q Well, looking at your Paragraph 26, you
`talk a little bit about the housing -- this is the
`bottom of page 9 into page 10 -- you talk about
`the housing of one embodiment including two
`cavities or pockets.
` A Yes.
` Q In your understanding, does the inclusion
`of two cavities or pockets in the '087 patent's
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`housing address the problem of moisture absorption
`in the housing?
` A Moisture absorption in the housing? If
`one of the pockets is filled with a protective
`resin, yes, but certainly the bottom pocket is not
`going to address that.
` Q Take a look at the '087 patent, column 1.
`If you go down to around line 18, the '087 patent
`says that "Increasing the mass increases
`susceptibility to moisture or results in flimsy
`housings that are prone to cracking or other
`physical failures."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you agree that increasing the mass in
`an LED housing increases susceptibility to
`moisture absorption?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A That general statement I'd say I probably
`don't agree with. There may be a particular
`package wherein increasing the mass slows the
`moisture absorption to the critical parts of the
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`assembly, but, in general, I would not agree with
`that. I mean, it's a general statement there and
`I think it has to be tied to a specific assembly
`to answer that question.
` Q Well, look at your annotation of Figure 2
`of the '087 patent on page 10 of your declaration.
`Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you see the space marked element 34,
`second cavity on Figure 2?
` A Yes.
` Q If that second cavity were filled with
`plastic, in order words, if that second cavity had
`never been formed in the housing, do you agree
`that that would increase the mass of the LED
`housing shown in Figure 2?
` A If the pocket wasn't there?
` Q That's right.
` A Yes, that would increase the mass of them.
` Q And do you believe that if that second
`pocket, element 34, were not present in Figure 2
`and that pocket were completely filled with
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`plastic, do you believe that that LED that I'm
`describing to you would be more susceptible to
`moisture absorption than the embodiment actually
`shown in Figure 2?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A It's really impossible to answer that. It
`depends on the path that the moisture is taking to
`the critical component and there's just no way to
`judge that without, you know, studying the
`behavior of this over time when it's subjected to
`moisture. The moisture may be coming in from
`small gaps where the leads protrude, in which case
`increasing the mass would have nothing to do with
`it. So it's just not possible to answer that.
` Q In your view, what is the purpose of the
`second cavity 34 in the '087 patent's Figure 2?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A I think its major purpose, which was
`stated, is to reduce the mass.
` Q And what benefit is served by reducing the
`mass of LED housing?
` A If you have --
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` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry.
` A If you have massive parallel arrays of
`these devices like would be in a large display,
`then it will, you know, result in a significant
`decrease in the weight of the display. So if you
`take it all the way to the extreme, the stadium
`display, if there's structural issues supporting
`that display in the environment it sits in, then
`it's potentially beneficial to reduce the mass of
`the arrays of these devices that would be arranged
`to create the display.
` Q Dr. Shealy, in your annotations of Figure
`1 and Figure 2, you see that there is a first
`cavity marked element 30 and then the second
`cavity marked element 34, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Is it fair to say that element 30, the
`first cavity, is arranged in the upper portion of
`the LED housing; and second cavity, 34, is
`arranged in the lower portion of the LED housing?
` A My recollection is that the patent
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`15
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`describes these cavities were created in the end
`faces, and I don't think there's a tight
`definition given on what the upper and lower
`portion is, but I think generally you could say
`that's a true statement, but I don't think it's
`the -- or I don't recall if the patent really
`defines what the upper and lower portions are,
`but, I mean, certainly you could call them that.
`I don't think it would be an error.
` Q Let's take a look at Figure 4 of the '087
`patent.
` A Okay.
` Q You see in this cross-section you see the
`second cavity, it's not marked element 34, but you
`see where that's located in Figure 4, correct?
` A Yeah, directly above No. 98, correct?
` Q Yes.
` Doctor, you agree that the purpose of the
`lower cavity, as I believe you testified to
`before, was to reduce the mass of the LED housing,
`correct?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
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` A Yes.
` Q Doctor, if you were to, in effect, cut off
`the portions of the sidewall adjacent to this
`lower cavity, or lower pocket, so that the bottom
`of the LED housing were planar, do you understand
`what I'm describing?
` A Are you going to cut the leads as well --
` Q No?
` A -- or shorten them?
` Q I want to --
` A Well, you're going to leave the leads and
`you're just going to take it -- why don't we call
`it the upper surface of the lower cavity?
` Q That's right.
` A So you want to run that surface from lead
`to lead?
` Q That's right.
` A I think I understand what you're saying.
` Q So you'd have a lower surface that's
`planar?
` A Yes.
` Q In that hypothetical that I'm describing
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`to you, don't you agree that the mass of the LED
`housing would be lower than the mass as shown in
`the embodiment of Figure 4?
` A The mass would be lower but you removed a
`considerable amount of support for the leads,
`which is problematic in these kind of assemblies,
`and, of course, reducing the mass enough may
`eventually make the whole thing a little flimsy.
` Q So, Doctor, is it correct that two of the
`factors you just described for me as reasons for
`having, in effect, these lower portions
`surrounding the second cavity were, one, to avoid
`making the LED housing flimsy; and, two --
` A It depends on how much material is above
`that surface that we just created. I mean, it may
`or may not make it flimsy, depends on, you know,
`the rest of it. But certainly you would think
`that if you cut that off, the leads are just
`hanging out there in air and it would be easy
`perhaps during assembly that something snags one
`of those leads and snaps it off or bends it,
`damages it, which leads to premature failure. I
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`think you'd find discussion like that in the
`patent.
` Q So you agree that that lower portion of
`this peripheral sidewall in Figure 4 of the '087
`patent provides support for the leads. Is that
`correct?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Yes, in that regard, you know, all of the
`prior art we cited has similar arrangements. The
`leads are protected, and the same thing here.
` Q Doctor, do you recall whether the '087
`patent discloses that the peripheral sidewall or
`lead-receiving compartments protect the leads?
` A What I recall without reading the patent
`is that the peripheral sidewall has what's termed
`the lead-receiving compartments which are
`explained to limit inward deflection of leads, and
`actually that's in one of the claims, which is
`inferred to protect the leads from, you know,
`excessive force that may cause the metal to
`fatigue or something along those lines.
` So the sidewall has pockets and the
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`pockets -- I think we called them compartments so
`they weren't confused with the top and bottom
`pockets on the end faces -- but the purpose of
`those compartments are to protect the leads so
`they can't get bent too far inward or bent side to
`side because there's structure in the sidewall
`that, you know, limits the deflection in either
`direction, or at least in -- if you look at Figure
`2, you'll see the compartment labeled 52, it only
`has support on one side.
` So, you know, all the pockets are --
`sorry, compartments I should call them to be
`consistent with the declaration -- the compartment
`that houses lead 40 has a sidewall on either side.
`Whereas the compartments on the end of the array
`of three leads on each side doesn't have a ...
` So one skilled would probably think that
`the middle lead is a little better protected than
`the outer leads.
` Q Doctor, take a look at column 2, line 24
`of the '087 patent. Here the '087 patent says,
`"The second cavity 34 is surrounded on four sides
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`by the peripheral recall 26 providing rigidity and
`preventing cracks due to flexing."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you agree that the peripheral wall 26
`surrounding second cavity 34 provides rigidity and
`prevents cracks due to flexing?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Well, I think it depends on the kind of
`force. I don't think the patent compared removing
`this volume. I guess this statement is -- well,
`maybe it's not saying that, but we're comparing
`with and without material in that second cavity.
`It's not clear, you know, how that protects
`cracking. It depends on the environment the
`device is in, whether it would -- if there's a big
`thermal mismatch, then it's likely it could help
`with cracking, depending on what it's mounted on.
` One thing it does do is degrade the
`thermal resistance between the LED and the
`package, which I don't think the patent addresses.
`So you remove that plastic and you fill it with
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`Transcript of James R. Shealy, Ph.D.
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`21
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`air, you're not going to get as good a thermal
`transfer through it. So that's a downside of
`putting that pocket in there.
` One of the prior art, you probably recall,
`is it Takenaka, he shoves a thermally conductive
`material in that pocket for that specific reason.
` Q Doctor, let's turn to column 3, line 20 of
`the '087 patent -- actually, I would say go back
`to line 17.
` A Of which column?
` Q Column 3.
` A Okay.
` Q If you read through line 25.
` A Okay, I've read that. Is fully bonded
`cavity described somewhere that you recall?
` Q Well, let's break it down. The first
`sentence of this portion, basically column 3, line
`17, talks about "The exemplary bottom cavity 34 is
`surrounded on all four sides by peripheral wall 26
`rather than just forming a slot and having the
`slot bounded by the peripheral wall only on the
`two sides with leads."
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`22
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` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q So there you see -- let me ask you this.
`Would you agree that the '087 patent is comparing
`a fully bounded wall around the cavity 34, in
`other words, a wall -- I'll start again.
` Would you agree that the '087 patent there
`is describing the bottom cavity 34 being
`surrounded on all four sides with the peripheral
`wall 26?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Yes, I believe that's the way they're
`attempting to describe Figure 2.
` Q And you would agree that Figure 2 is
`showing a lower cavity 34 that's surrounded on all
`four sides by the peripheral wall 26, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And that they're comparing that
`arrangement, the lower cavity 34 surrounded on all
`four sides, with a slot where the slot is only
`bounded on the two sides where the leads are
`located, correct?
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` A So does that mean two slots?
` Q I think they mean one.
` A I don't think it's clear from this
`language. I mean, forming a slot, having the slot
`bounded by the peripheral wall only on the two
`sides --
` Q Dr. Shealy, looking at Figure 2 in front
`of you there, if you were to remove the portion of
`the end wall -- or the peripheral wall 26 on the
`two ends of cavity 34 without leads --
` A So you're removing --
` MR. COLSHER: I'm sorry, was there a
`question in there?
` MR. HELGE: Yeah, I'm just trying to --
` MR. COLSHER: I'm not sure there's any
`question pending right now.
`BY MR. HELGE:
` Q Wouldn't that result in a slot bounded on
`two sides only?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Yes, I'm not sure -- you know, a slot
`could be of any width. So they're comparing this
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`structure with this cavity with a slot that I
`presume is placed, you know, parallel to each
`array of leads. They don't say how wide the slot
`is, but -- it seems to be describing a slot that
`penetrates that part of cavity, in other words,
`the wall that's on the end face where there's no
`leads, part of that wall has been removed.
` Q I agree with you.
` A I think that's what they're trying to say.
` Q I agree with you.
` So comparing the fully bounded cavity 34
`with a cavity in which those portions of the end
`walls are removed is the comparison that's going
`on in column 3, lines 17 to 25 of the '087 patent,
`correct?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A That seems to be what the language is
`implying. I think there's probably a more
`straightforward way to describe that, but -- but
`so if there's a slot on that end face, I think
`that would compromise the mechanical integrity.
` Q And so the '087 patent here says that "The
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`25
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`fully bounded cavity forms a stable platform for
`the optical device 10 so that it is less likely to
`tip over during the assembly and mounting
`process."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q Do you agree that the fully bounded cavity
`34 forms a stable platform for the optical device
`10 so that it is less likely to tip over during
`the assembly and mounting process?
` A I don't think there's enough detail on,
`you know, what that assembly process is, but in
`either case, if you put a slot in that wall, a
`piece of that wall remains. The leads kind of
`form another boundary, and I don't see how that
`would affect the tipping over one way or the
`other.
` Q So looking at line 20 the '087 patent also
`says, "The fully bounded cavity 34 is stronger
`than a slot."
` Do you agree with that?
` A I think you could have a narrow slot that
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`26
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`would be just as strong as a fully bounded cavity
`if the slot were narrow enough; but if you were to
`keep the dimensions the same, in other words, the
`width of the satellites the same width of the
`cavity and you blow out each end face, I think the
`fully bounded cavity would be structurally
`stronger. Of course, all of this also depends on
`how keep the cavity is.
` These statements are somewhat general and
`there's not enough detail to really assess the
`mechanical strength of it.
` Q Would the thickness of the peripheral wall
`26 surrounding cavity 34 also influence the
`mechanical strength of the LED housing?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Yes, it would. Of course, the thickness
`interplays with the compartments that are placed
`in it as well. So it's got to be thick enough to
`accommodate the compartments.
` Q When you -- I want to clarify what you
`just said. Your testimony just a moment ago were
`you saying that the thickness of the peripheral
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`27
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`wall surrounding the bottom cavity needs to be
`thick enough to allow the formation of the
`lead-receiving compartments?
` A Yes --
` MR. COLSHER: Object to the form of the
`question.
` A -- so they don't penetrate all the way
`through the wall. You've lost the support for the
`leads.
` Q And you want support for the leads,
`correct?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A Generally I'd say yes.
` Q Because if the leads don't have support,
`they could break or lead to premature failure of
`the LED, correct?
` A In some assembly processes, yes. In
`others, maybe not.
` Q Doctor, I'm handing you a copy of the
`reference entitled Takenaka. This is Exhibit 1008
`in this case. Do you see that?
` A Yes.
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` Q Doctor, if you turn to Paragraph 189 in
`your declaration as well, this is on page 75,
`there's some discussion of Takenaka there,
`correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And you quote Paragraph 44 of Takenaka
`beginning on line 4 of Paragraph 189.
` You quote, "Preferably, the volume of
`metal body 8 in the package is as large as
`possible in the package," correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Looking at Takenaka, Figure 1, can you
`tell looking at Takenaka, Figure 1, whether the
`volume of metal body 8 is as large as possible?
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A It could have extended laterally. Do you
`see where the -- there's a line that goes to No.
`3, that area in there, it could have extended
`laterally. Of course, if it's made out of metal,
`they can't touch both leads or it will short the
`device out.
` Takenaka also discusses using a thermally
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`conducted ceramic, in which case that wouldn't be
`an issue. So the pocket could have been a little
`wider and that would increase the volume of that
`pocket and improve the thermal transfer to a heat
`sink.
` Q I'm going to hand you a copy -- this is a
`clean piece of paper showing Takenaka's Figures 1,
`2 and 3, in other words, this is basically page 2
`of Takenaka --
` A Same thing we were just looking at?
` Q That's correct.
` I'm going to also hand you my blue pen.
`I'd like to ask you, Doctor, to draw for me with
`the blue pen the outline for metal body 8 that has
`as large a volume as possible.
` MR. COLSHER: Objection to form.
` A So you want me to draw a replacement for
`the metal body that's there that has a bigger
`volume? Is that the question?
` Q Let me be very clear. Paragraph 189 of
`your declaration you quote Takenaka saying,
`"Preferably, the volume of metal body 8 in the
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`package is as long as possible in the package."
` I think what you were just telling me the
`last few minutes was that the volume of metal body
`8 could have been larger than what is shown in
`Figure 1.
` A Um-hum.
` Q D like to ask you to draw for me an
`outline of metal body 8 using my blue pen that has
`as large a volume as possible consistent with
`Takenaka's disclosure.
` A Before I draw this, you said body 8 is a
`metal?
` Q Well --
` A Because the patent does describe it can
`also be a ceramic. The only difference is you
`can't obviously place the metal up against the
`leads. A ceramic you could.
` Q Does your declaration talk about that
`metal body 8 being formed with ceramic anywhere?
` A I don't recall if that's in the
`declaration or not. I know it's in the patent,
`but I don't recall if it's in the declaration.
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` Q Well, let's stick with my original
`question, which is based on Paragraph 189 and your
`quotation that "Preferably, the volume of metal
`body 8 in the package is as large as possible in
`the package."
` Using my blue pen, I'd like you to please
`draw the outline of that metal body 8 having a
`volume as large as possible.
` A Try to do this neatly. Now, I mean, one
`skilled in the art would presumably make it as
`large as required for effective heat transfer. So
`that's the purpose of it.
` So extending it over here, there's not
`very much heat conducted through the wire bond.
`The majority of the heat is generated on the LED
`die. And this diagram it's heating the left
`electrode. So it would be more beneficial to
`extend the metal body around that electrode, the
`left electrode, than it would be the right
`electrode.
` So, I mean, if one skilled was going
`through this experiment, they would certainly know
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`Transc
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