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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________
`
`Page 1
`
` SHOPIFY, INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` DDR HOLDINGS, LLC
` Patent Owner
`
` ______________
`
` Case IPR2018-01008
` Patent 9,639,876
` ______________
`
`DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
` January 24, 2019
`
`Reported by: Michelle L. Hall, RMR
`
`Job No. 154075
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`DDR Holdings, LLC - Ex. 2027
`Shopify, Inc. v. DDR Holdings, LLC
`IPR2018-01011
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________
`
`Page 1
`
` SHOPIFY, INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` DDR HOLDINGS, LLC
` Patent Owner
`
` ______________
`
` Case IPR2018-01008
` Patent 9,639,876
` ______________
`
`DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
` January 24, 2019
`
`Reported by: Michelle L. Hall, RMR
`
`Job No. 154075
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`DDR Holdings, LLC - Ex. 2027
`Shopify, Inc. v. DDR Holdings, LLC
`IPR2018-01011
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.,
`a witness herein, called by the Patent Owner
`for examination, by and before Michelle L.
`Hall, a Registered Merit Reporter and Notary
`Public in and for the Commonwealth of
`Pennsylvania, at the Wyndham Pittsburgh
`University Center, 100 Lytton Avenue,
`Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on Thursday, January
`24, 2019, at 9:00 a.m.
` - - - - -
`COUNSEL PRESENT:
`For the Petitioner:
` Michael McNamara, Esquire
` Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and
` Popeo
` One Financial Center
` Boston, MA 02111
`For the Patent Owner:
` Ian Crosby, Esquire
` Susman Godfrey
` 1201 Third Avenue
` Seattle, WA 98101
` And
` Louis Hoffman, Esquire
` Hoffman Patent Firm
` 7689 East Paradise Lane
` Scottsdale, AZ 85260
`
`ALSO PRESENT: Vivek Narayanadas, Esquire
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` I N D E X
` - - - - -
` WITNESS: MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`
`E X A M I N A T I O N: PAGE
`
`BY MR. CROSBY 4
`
`E X H I B I T S: PAGE
`
`EXHIBIT 1 (Marked and then Withdrawn.)
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` - - - - -
` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,
`was examined and testified as follows:
` - - - - -
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. All right. So, I would like to
`start with the materials that you considered,
`and if you want to refer to your declaration in
`the 11 PTAB IPR, that will be as good as any of
`them.
` A. The 1011?
` Q. Yeah. Exactly.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Here we go.
` MR. CROSBY: And do you mind
`if I just for things that are of record in the
`PTAB, like his declaration, unless I'm going to
`have him mark up an exhibit or something like
`that, just not admit it or would you --
` MR. McNAMARA: You don't need
`to admit it. As long as I have a copy, I can
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`refer to my own copy. If I don't have a copy
`then --
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. So I'm referring to your declaration
`in the 1011 IPR.
` A. I'm sorry, which one -- in the which
`one?
` Q. The 1011 IPR.
` A. Yeah. I'm there, yes.
` Q. I think your materials considered
`are on Page 26 of that document.
` Sir, you considered the prosecution
`histories of the three patents that are being
`challenged in the six IPRs at issue; right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And, so, you're aware that the claim
`charts for Moore were submitted in each of
`those prosecutions; is that right?
` A. I don't -- I don't recall that
`sitting here.
` Q. Okay. So, it looks like -- let's --
`I'm going to hand you -- this is loose,
`unfortunately.
` THE COURT REPORTER: I have a
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`stapler.
` (Discussion was held off the
`record.)
` MR. McNAMARA: Do you want to
`admit this as an exhibit?
` (Exhibit No. 1 was marked for
`identification.)
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. Does this look familiar?
` A. Wait a second. Let me -- I'm just
`trying to get the right files through here.
`This is the '979 application. This is which
`patent?
` Q. The '979 application, I don't know
`which one it is off the top of my --
` A. I'll be able to find it fairly
`quickly though.
` Q. -- head, but it's one of the -- it's
`one of the three patents --
` A. Yeah.
` Q. -- that's at issue.
` A. I'm just trying to figure out which
`one it is. Yeah, it's the '825.
` Q. Okay. Great.
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. So, do you recognize this part of
`the file history of '825, or is this something
`that you considered?
` A. Well, I think I leafed through it.
`I mean, I'm not instantaneously recognizing it.
`I just want to find where it is in the
`prosecution history.
` Yeah. It appears to be early.
` Q. So, am I --
` A. I'm just trying to find where it is
`in the prosecution --
` Q. But my question is is you're not
`immediately familiar with this? This doesn't
`jump out at you as something you considered in
`great detail?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. Great. Let's go ahead and if
`you want to turn to Page 4 of the exhibit.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Okay. Do you see --
` A. Okay.
` Q. -- that this is a chart of the Moore
`reference against the previously issued Ross
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`patent '135?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Great. And if you look down
`to element 8(c), you see that there is a
`limitation of the claim 8 of that patent --
` A. Yeah, yeah.
` Q. -- that includes "upon" --
` A. So, the prelude to your question
`was, when you asked me to look at a certain
`thing, this is so small that my eyesight is
`actually not permitting me to see it. So I'm
`pulling it up on the screen so I can expand it.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I just want to get some context.
`The second step is to -- let's see where that
`is. It's a good thing I have this. File
`history is 2,974 pages long.
` Q. Yeah. I didn't want to print all of
`it out as an exhibit.
` A. Yeah. It's halfway through. I
`mean, I literally can't read this.
` Q. Let me know when you've located the
`appropriate page in the file history.
` A. It would help to know what the date
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`of this was. It seems to be around --
` Q. So it's --
` A. -- September of 2012?
` Q. Yeah. Date considered: September
`29th, 2012.
` A. Okay.
` MR. HOFFMAN: Probably
`submitted it a little bit before that.
` A. There was a supplemental IDS. See,
`I was looking for a phrase in here.
` Q. I was about to give you a phrase.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So, "upon receiving an activation of
`the provided link." That gives you too many
`hits.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Try "Comparison of U.S. Patent No.
`6,629,135." That's the title of it. If you
`turn to any of the pages of the charts, it
`should be big enough for you to see.
` A. I'll be able to see it when I find
`it in here.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I did insert the phrase. It didn't
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`find it. Maybe the OCR wasn't so effective on
`this very small stuff. Yeah. It's -- it's not
`finding that; so -- maybe a magnifying glass.
` (Discussion was held off the
`record.)
` A. Is this the supplemental IDS?
` Q. Yes.
` A. So there was a supplemental IDS on
`August 10th of 2012. Oh.
` Do you have another file history?
` Q. I do. And I'm -- as you look for
`the page, I'm hoping to find the page in the
`PDF as well so that you can view it at a
`greater magnification.
` A. Because I'm -- I've tried searching
`multiple phrases here.
` Q. It may be because the pages are in
`landscape mode, it might not have been properly
`OCR'd.
` A. Okay. Then I'll look for --
` MR. McNAMARA: Should we maybe
`move on and move back to it later when we find
`it on the PDF?
` Q. Yeah, maybe we can come back to it
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`at a break.
` A. Making -- I can search for one of
`the pages that's in the portrait mode.
` MR. CROSBY: Yeah. We'll --
`if you want to see if you can find the
`appropriate PDF page so that we can zoom into
`it, maybe we can come back to this.
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. All right. Well, that was an
`auspicious start here. We'll come back to the
`Moore charts that were submitted during the
`prosecution of the patents at issue here.
` Let's go -- and you also reviewed
`the federal circuit decision in DDR Holdings
`versus Hotels.com; is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you're aware that the federal
`circuit found an inventive concept in -- or
`found a nonabstract concept in the analysis of
`the validity of this -- of the '399 patent
`under 101, and found it was addressed the
`problem of being transported away from a
`website and the routine Internet when shopping?
`Is that fair?
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And the solution to that
`problem on the Internet was that the page that
`you jumped away to would have the same look and
`feel as the page you were navigating from;
`correct?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` Q. Well, let me direct you to the -- if
`you look at the -- let me get you the federal
`circuit decision.
` A. It's Exhibit 1017 in that IPR.
` Q. Do you want to pull it up?
` MR. McNAMARA: Can I have a
`copy of it?
` MR. CROSBY: Yeah, sure.
` (Discussion was held off the
`record.)
` MR. CROSBY: I don't know that
`I have a paper copy of the federal circuit
`decision.
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. My question to you is just this: Do
`you think that the patents that are the subject
`of these IPRs are addressed to a different
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`problem than the one that the federal circuit
`recognized the '399 patent was addressed to?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. Okay. Let's look at what they say
`the problem was. I guess I can search for
`"problem."
` Q. If you look at Page 13 of the
`decision, and if you're text searching, "In
`particular, the '399 patent's claims address
`the problem retaining website visitors that if
`adhering to the routine, conventional
`functioning of Internet hyperlink protocol
`would be instantly transported away from the
`host website after clicking on an advertisement
`and activating a hyperlink."
` And my question is do you understand
`the patents at issue in these IPRs to be
`addressed to a different problem than that one?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I think it addresses that problem.
` Q. Okay. Great.
` A. I think it addresses possibly other
`problems also.
` Q. And so, in the next paragraph, the
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`federal circuit says, "In more plain language,
`upon the click of an advertisement for a third
`party product displayed on the host website,
`the visitor is no longer transported to the
`third party's website. Instead, the patent
`claims call for an outsource provider having
`Web server which directs the visitor to an
`automatically generated hybrid Web page that
`combines visual look and feel elements from the
`host website, product information from the
`third-party merchant's website related to the
`clicked advertisement."
` So, my question is: Do you
`understand the patents at issue in this suit to
`provide a different solution to the problem
`that you previously identified?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection to
`form. Scope.
` A. Not really. I think -- I'm focusing
`on the word "advertisement," and so, the
`problem with clicking on an advertisement was
`the prior art, and the federal circuit is
`formulating the solution here where it says,
`"instead, the patent claims call for," dot,
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`dot, dot. And so I figure advertisement is
`part of the claims of the '399, but it doesn't
`have to be an advertisement.
` Q. Understood. Well, the -- the
`decision goes on and says, "In this way, rather
`than instantly losing visitors to the third
`party's website, the host website can instead
`send its visitors to a Web page on the
`outsource provider's server that incorporates
`look and feel elements from the host website
`and provides visitors with the opportunity to
`purchase products from the third-party merchant
`without actually entering that merchant's
`website."
` So do you view the patents in
`this -- at that level of generality, do you
`view the patents in this -- in these IPRs as
`providing a fundamentally different solution to
`the problem?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection to
`form and scope.
` A. Fundamentally different from what
`the federal circuit said?
` Q. Yes.
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` A. No.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I like the second sentence that you
`read better than the first one because it
`doesn't contain the word "advertisement."
` Q. Okay.
` A. Which was leading me astray.
` Q. The -- you don't view the patents in
`this case as limited to websites that actually
`have something that you would characterize as
`an advertisement on it; right?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection to
`form and scope.
` A. That's right.
` Q. So, in your discussion of the
`background technologies at the section on
`common features of e-commerce web sites, I'm
`looking at page -- paragraph 38 of your
`declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you say, in the context of common
`features of the e-commerce websites relating to
`headers and footers that headers and footers
`were typically site-wide. That is, a Web
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`designer would create one header layout and one
`footer layout and then use the same layout on
`all pages of the site; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So, what you're saying --
` A. I say "within the site." If
`you're -- if you're reading literally from my
`declaration, it says, "within the site."
` Q. I'm sorry. I thought that's what I
`said.
` So, what you're saying is common
`here is the use of headers and footers within a
`single website; correct?
` A. That's what I'm saying here, yes.
` Q. Okay. And you haven't expressed an
`opinion here that it was common to use the same
`headers and footers on different websites;
`correct?
` A. Not in paragraph 38.
` Q. Okay. And -- well, what you do say
`about that is that in paragraph 39 you say,
`"Any Web designer would have known how to
`create a header and a footer that could be used
`on all the pages of the website," and then you
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`say, "or even on different websites"; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. So, this is referring to
`a Web designer who has been provided with the
`objective of making headers and footers --
`let's take it -- let's break it down.
` So, the first part of this sentence
`refers to the knowledge of a Web designer about
`how to create a header and footer on all the
`same pages of a -- of the same website;
`correct? It says a Web designer would have
`that knowledge; right?
` A. Yes. In paragraph 39 says know how
`to do it on different sites also.
` Q. I'm going to get to that.
` So -- but this is referring to the
`knowledge of a Web designer to do that given
`that as a goal; correct?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I think anything you know how to do,
`you have to have a goal to do it, or you
`wouldn't apply that knowledge to do it.
` Q. Okay. Fair enough.
` So, a Web designer who didn't have
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`the goal of creating a header and footer that
`was used across all the pages of a website
`wouldn't just sit down and do that out of the
`blue unless that -- there was some reason they
`had a reason for doing that; right?
` A. Well, yes. But they would have a
`reason for doing that.
` Q. Understood. But this -- I'm just
`trying to break down this paragraph here. This
`sentence here is referring to the capabilities
`of a Web designer. It doesn't say anything
`about what they would be motivated to do. It
`just says what they're able to do; correct?
` A. Paragraph 39 says what they're able
`to do.
` Q. Okay. And it says that with respect
`to both the same website or a different
`website; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. It doesn't say what they
`would be motivated to do on either of those
`websites?
` A. There isn't a discussion of
`motivation in paragraph 39.
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` Q. And you don't discuss in paragraph
`39 how a Web designer would create common
`headers and footers on all the pages of a
`website; correct?
` A. I don't say it because I don't have
`to. I'm not explaining how to do it. I'm
`explaining that a Web designer would know how
`to do it.
` Q. Right. So there's no explanation of
`how a Web designer would do that; right?
` A. There's no explanation in paragraph
`39 of how to do it.
` Q. And there's -- and you don't make
`any assertion in this paragraph about how a Web
`designer would do that for different websites
`either; correct?
` A. There's no technology explained in
`paragraph 39 because it's unnecessary. It's
`something that every Web designer knows.
` Q. I understand that's your contention.
`But whether or not every Web designer knows
`that -- and I'll grant you that they do, right,
`that's not -- how they would do that is not
`something that you explain in paragraph 39;
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`right?
` A. I agree. Again, it's not necessary
`because they all know how to do it.
` Q. I understand that's your position,
`but that's not my question. All right?
` I'm just trying to -- you don't make
`a disclosure here about what it is, what
`that -- what that thing is that every Web
`designer would know how to do. You don't
`actually identify what that know-how is in this
`paragraph; correct?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
`Asked and answered.
` A. I identify what the know-how is. I
`don't give the details of the know-how. I'm
`not writing a patent spec here. I'm just
`making a statement about what was commonly
`known in the art.
` MR. CROSBY: Move to strike as
`nonresponsive.
` Q. I'm just at this point trying to
`nail down what it is you are and what it is you
`are not saying in this paragraph. Okay? And
`so, I'm not intending to challenge your
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`assertion that a Web designer would know how to
`create a header and footer on all the pages of
`a website. I'm just saying that the method by
`which they would do that, even if every Web
`designer would know what that method is, that's
`not something that you describe in this
`paragraph 39; correct?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
`Asked and answered.
` A. Correct. It's trivial. There's no
`need to do that.
` Q. And you say there's no need to do
`it, and, therefore, you don't do that elsewhere
`in your report, do you?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I'm not writing a patent
`specification here.
` MR. CROSBY: Move to strike as
`nonresponsive.
` Q. Can you answer my question, sir?
`I'm not asking you to explain yourself. I'm
`not -- I'm just asking you is there somewhere
`else in this patent specification or -- I'm
`sorry, you -- is there somewhere else in this
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`declaration where you actually explain the
`method that a Web designer would know how to
`use to create a header and footer that can be
`used in all pages of the website?
` A. I don't think so, but we may come
`across it at some point.
` Q. All right. And similarly, there's
`not an explanation that you're aware of in your
`declaration where you explain the method that
`any Web designer would know to create headers
`and footers that are the same on different
`websites; correct?
` A. I thought that was the first
`question, but my answer is the same.
` Q. All right. So just so the record is
`clear, you don't identify the content of the
`knowledge of an ordinary Web designer from this
`time about how to create a header and footer
`that are the same on the same website or how to
`do that on different websites? That's just not
`something you address; correct?
` A. I address the topic. I don't give
`the details of how it's done.
` Q. That's not a criticism. I'm not --
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`and now I hope that with that as sort of
`background, I want to make -- I want to
`understand, you don't assert here that whatever
`that method may be, that it is the same when
`you're creating headers and footers for all the
`pages of a single website and when you're
`creating header/footers for a different
`website; correct?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. It is the same. But I don't assert
`that in paragraph 39.
` MR. CROSBY: Move to strike
`the answer as nonresponsive. Beyond the scope
`of the question.
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. Let's try it again.
` You don't explain the difference, if
`any -- strike that.
` You don't explain how the methods
`that -- strike that again.
` You don't assert that the methods
`that a Web designer would use to create a
`header and footer that are the same on the same
`website are the same methods that a Web
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`designer would use to create a header and
`footer that are the same on different websites;
`right? You don't assert that in this
`paragraph?
` A. I don't assert that in paragraph 39.
`But they are the same.
` MR. CROSBY: Move to strike
`the answer from after the words "paragraph 39"
`as nonresponsive.
` Q. You don't -- you also don't make any
`assertion that a Web designer would be
`motivated to create a header and footer that is
`the same on different websites without
`reference to the teaching of the Ross patent
`disclosure; correct?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I don't make any reference to the
`Ross patent disclosure in paragraph 39.
` MR. CROSBY: Move to strike as
`nonresponsive.
` Q. I would appreciate -- this will go a
`lot faster if you can just answer my question.
` A. I did. You talked about the Ross
`patent disclosure.
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` Q. Sir, you didn't answer the question
`that I asked you. The question that I asked
`you is: Do you agree that you do not assert in
`paragraph 39 that a Web designer would be
`motivated to create a header and footer that's
`the same on different websites without
`reference to the teaching of the Ross patent
`disclosure? Can you answer that question?
` A. Yes. I make no reference to the
`Ross patent disclosure in paragraph 39.
` Q. I know you think that that answer
`encompasses my question, but it is -- it is not
`my specific question.
` A. You're asking a compound question.
`If you break it into two parts, I can answer
`the two parts separately.
` Q. No. My question is a simple "yes"
`or "no."
` I understand that your unsolicited
`testimony is that you don't make any reference
`to the Ross patent disclosure in paragraph 39.
`So, it would follow that specifically since you
`don't make any reference to the Ross patent
`disclosure in paragraph 39, that you
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`specifically don't assert that a Web designer
`would be motivated to create headers and
`footers that are the same on different websites
`without reference to the teaching of the Ross
`patent disclosure. That specific point is
`correct too; isn't it?
` A. I guess --
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I guess you've answered -- you've
`answered your question yourself.
` Q. I'm not here to answer my questions.
`You're here to answer my questions.
` Will you answer my question. You
`don't make the specific assertion that a Web
`designer would be motivated to create headers
`and footers that match on different websites
`without reference to the teaching of the Ross
`patent disclosure; correct?
` A. So, every time you use the phrase
`"Ross patent disclosure" in a question, "Ross
`patent disclosure" is going to appear in my
`answer.
` I don't discuss any motivation in
`paragraph 39 whether -- with reference to the
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`Ross patent disclosure or not with reference to
`the Ross patent disclosure.
` MR. CROSBY: Should we take a
`break? Should we call PTAB?
` MR. HOFFMAN: No. I think
`that he said that --
` MR. CROSBY: Hold on a second.
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. All right. So just I'm clear here,
`you simply will not, no matter how many times I
`ask it, answer the question that I've put to
`you several times now about the Ross patent
`disclosure yes or no? You just won't do it; is
`that right?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. That's not -- that is not true.
`You're asking a compound question that has two
`parts. One part has to do with motivation of
`the Web designer, another part has to do with
`the Ross patent disclosure. You keep combining
`them. If you separate them, I'll answer your
`question separately.
` Q. So, the answer is you -- for
`whatever reason that may be your explanation,
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`okay, you can't answer the question that I
`asked you yes or no? You won't do it; right?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. Well, I hardly ever answer questions
`yes or no. I always explain my answers. But
`it is a compound question. It's an improper
`question. You should break it into two pieces,
`and I'll answer them separately.
` Q. It's clear that you hardly ever
`answer questions yes or no.
` So, you also won't answer my
`question about whether you'll answer yes or no,
`yes or no? That's also not something that you
`will do. You have to explain everything; is
`that right?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I may. If I believe the answer will
`leave a misimpression on the record, then I
`will explain.
` MR. HOFFMAN: Let's take a
`break.
` MR. CROSBY: We will take a
`break here.
` (Recess was taken.)
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
`BY MR. CROSBY:
` Q. All right. Let's see if we can
`break this down and move on.
` So, you don't speak to the issue of
`motivation at all in paragraph 39; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And so, by extension, you don't
`speak to the issue of motivation to put the
`same header and footer on different websites in
`paragraph 39; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And you don't speak about the Ross
`patent in paragraph 39; correct?
` A. I don't make any reference to the
`Ross patent in paragraph 39. Of course, the
`context of the entire declaration is within
`that of the Ross patent.
` Q. So, therefore, in this paragraph 39,
`you're not expressing any opinion one way or
`the other about whether a Web designer would be
`motivated to create a common header and footer
`on different websites without referring to the
`Ross patent? That's just not something you
`express an opinion on here; correct?
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. And are you aware of having
`expressed an opinion on that anywhere else in
`this declaration?
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
` A. I don't think so because the prior
`art discloses it; so I didn't think I needed to
`talk about motivation.
` Q. All right. Whatever your
`motivation -- whatever your reasons, that's not
`something you chose to take up specifically in
`this declaration; correct?
` A. I don't think I do.
` Q. All right. So, if we go to the
`section of your declaration where you discuss
`the Moore patent starting on Page 35, at F.
`Are you self-oriented there?
` A. Paragraph numbers are more useful
`but --
` Q. I'm just getting you oriented. I'll
`get you to a particular paragraph in a moment.
`I actually want to discuss some of the things
`that you say in paragraph 79.
` A. Okay.
`
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` MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D., J.D.
` Q. Sir, you say about midway down the
`paragraph that in Moore, uniform research
`locators, referred to as price URLs, are
`created and embedded in merchant Web
`storefronts; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. But you don't mean to imply by that
`that, in Moore, merchant Web storefronts are
`the only place where price URLs can be
`em
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