`
`Transcript of Bjorn Markus
`Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`
`Date: March 20, 2019
`Case: Apple Inc. -v- Universal Secure Registry LLC (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`planetdepos.com
`
`Worldwide Court Reporting & Litigation Technology
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`USR Exhibit 2017, Page 1
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`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` -----------------------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` -----------------------------------
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` UNIVERSAL SECURE REGISTRY LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` -----------------------------------
` Case No. IPR2018-00809
` U.S. Patent No. 9.530.137
`
` DEPOSITION OF BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D.
` Redwood Shores, California
` Wednesday, March 20, 2019
` 9:00 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 235123
`Pages: 1 - 248
`Reported By: Charlotte Lacey, RPR, CSR No. 14224
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`2
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` DEPOSITION OF BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D., held
`at the offices of QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART &
`SULLIVAN, LLP, 555 Twin Dolphin Drive, 5th Floor,
`Redwood Shores, California
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Charlotte Lacey,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter, in and for the State of
`California.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER APPLE INC.:
` MARK D. SELWYN, ESQUIRE
` MONICA GREWAL, ESQUIRE
` WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR, LLP
` 950 Page Mill Road
` Palo Alto, California 94304
` (650) 858-6031
`
` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER UNIVERSAL SECURE
`REGISTRY LLC:
` JORDAN B. KAERICHER, ESQUIRE
` TIGRAN GULEDJIAN, ESQUIRE
` QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
` 865 South Figueroa Street, 10th Floor
` Los Angeles, California 90017
` (213) 443-3000
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`4
`
` I N D E X
` WITNESS PAGE
` BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D.
` Examination by Mr. Selwyn 5
`
` I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S
` EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1 RSA Security's Official Guide to 41
` Cryptography, Chapters 3 and 4
`Exhibit 2 An Introduction to Cryptography 46
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`5
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` BJORN MARKUS JAKOBSSON, Ph.D.,
`the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
`examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. SELWYN:
` Q Good morning, sir.
` A Good morning.
` Q Could you tell us, please, your full name for
`the record.
` A Bjorn Markus Jakobsson.
` Q Dr. Jakobsson, do you understand that you have
`taken an oath to tell the truth?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q Is there any reason you cannot give your best
`and most complete testimony here today?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever been deposed before?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q How many times?
` A Maybe 20.
` Q What is your current occupation?
` A I'm a chief of science -- no. Chief of --
`sorry. Chief of security and data analytics. It's a
`title that's a little bit awkward, and that's why I'm
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`6
`
`hesitant about it.
` Q Who is your employer?
` A It's a company called Amber Solutions
`Incorporated.
` Q How long have you been employed by Amber
`Solutions?
` A I have been there since August of last year.
` Q How many times have you been retained as an
`expert in patent litigation or in IPRs?
` A Maybe on the order of 30 times.
` Q How many of those were for patent litigation?
` A Almost all of them.
` Q And how many times for IPRs?
` A Oh, I'm sorry. I -- I thought of patent
`litigation and IPR are similar. So...
` Q I'll break it down. How many of those were
`for district court litigation?
` A So district court, I would say two-thirds and
`IPRs, one-third.
` Q What is your currently -- current hourly rate,
`sir?
` A 625.
` Q How long has that been your rate?
` A For maybe three years.
` Q What percentage of your professional time in
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`7
`
`the last two years have you spent consulting in
`connection with patent litigation, in which I include
`IPRs?
` A Between and 10 and 15 percent.
` Q And what percentage of your annual income is
`derived from consulting for patent litigation, including
`IPRs?
` A I don't know for the tax year 2018. For the
`2017 tax year, I believe it's about a sixth of my
`income.
` Q By whom have you been retained in these
`matters?
` A By USR.
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection; vague.
` Q And when were you retained?
` A I don't recall the exact date. Approximately
`two years ago.
` Q Approximately how much have you billed to date
`in these matters for USR?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection; vague as to "these
`matters."
` Just wait a second also before you answer.
`Thanks.
` A I don't know really. At least a hundred
`thousand. But not much more.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`8
`
` Q And how much have you been paid to date?
` A So I think there are two invoices out, and I
`don't know the exact numbers for those. So I've been
`paid up until approximately December.
` Q Have you been paid more than a hundred
`thousand dollars to date?
` A You mean for the previous work?
` Q Correct. By USR.
` A Yes.
` Q What did you do, sir, to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A Among other things, I reviewed the -- my
`declarations.
` Q Did you do anything else to prepare?
` MR. KAERICHER: Just a caution not to reveal
`any communications with us or anything we asked you to
`review at our direction.
` THE WITNESS: Of course.
` A Yesterday, I met with counsel at these offices
`to review the -- the declaration.
` Q Did you do anything else to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A Among other things, we also had a couple of
`phone calls over the last few of days to review, and I
`have read the declarations in addition to that.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`9
`
` Q Did anyone participate in those phone calls
`other than yourself and counsel for USR?
` A Not that I'm aware of.
` Q Did you do anything else to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A No.
` Q Let me hand you --
` A Thank you.
` Q -- what I believe to be the declarations that
`you signed in connection with the IPRs for the '826 and
`'137 patents.
` You should have before you what has been
`marked as USR Exhibit 210, USR Exhibit 214,
`USR Exhibit 2003, USR Exhibit 2013, USR Exhibit 2101,
`and USR Exhibit 2111.
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Do you recognize those?
` A I do.
` Q What are they?
` A Three of them are declarations in support of
`patent owner's response, and three of them are
`declarations in support of motions to amend.
` Q And those are declarations that you signed,
`correct?
` A That is correct.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`10
`
` Q And those are declarations that were submitted
`in connection with IPRs for USR's patent numbers
`9,530,137 and 9,100,826?
` A That's correct.
` Q Will you understand me today if I refer to
`U.S. patent number 9,530,137 as the '137 patent?
` A Yes.
` Q And will you understand me today if I refer to
`U.S. patent number 9100826 as the '826 patent?
` A I would, yes.
` Q Are the six declarations before you that you
`signed in connection with the '137 and '826 patents
`complete and accurate in all respects?
` A I saw that there was one subtitle that was
`wrong.
` Q Do you want to correct that now?
` A Just a moment. So the 813 document section 3A
`should be titled the "'826 Patent Specification." It
`says the "'539 Patent Specification."
` Q Are your declarations complete and accurate in
`all other respects?
` A To the best of my knowledge, yes.
` Q Do your declarations contain all the support
`for your opinions?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection; form.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`11
`
` A Yes.
` Q Who wrote your declarations?
` A Some of them -- some of the sentences were not
`written by me but written by others for me guided by me.
`And some sentences, such as my understanding of the law,
`I think, are probably boilerplate. And I have seen them
`before, and I understand them, but I did not write them,
`as such. All the arguments, as such, I either wrote or
`dictated to be written.
` Q What percentage or proportion of the
`declarations did you write?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I would say the majority of the text falls
`into the category that I described.
` Q Let me show you what has been previously
`marked as Apple Exhibit 1104 in IPR 2018-813. That's
`also Apple Exhibit 1113 in IPR 2018-809 and Apple
`Exhibit 1005 in IPR 2018-810.
` Do you recognize that?
` A I do.
` Q And what is it?
` A Beg your pardon?
` Q What is it?
` A It's publication number WO 2004/051585 A2,
`which is an application that I'm a coauthor of.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`12
`
` Q Will you understand me today if we refer to
`this as the '585 reference?
` A Yes.
` Q You are a named inventor of the
`'585 reference, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And there are two other named inventors,
`correct.
` A That's correct.
` Q One of them is Dr. Ari Juels, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And the other is Dr. Burton Kaliski, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you know Dr. Kaliski and Dr. Juels?
` A I do.
` Q How do you know Dr. Juels?
` A For one thing, we used to be colleagues at the
`RSA. Also, I used to mentor him when he started in the
`field of cryptography.
` Q Would you agree that Dr. Juels is a well-known
`and well-respected expert in the field of cryptography?
` A Yes.
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` Q And you have a great deal of respect for
`Dr. Juels, correct?
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`13
`
` A I do.
` Q Would you agree with -- that Dr. Juels is a
`well-known and well-respected expert in the field of
`computer security?
` A When you say "expert," do you mean in the
`context of patent litigation?
` Q No, in the context of computer security.
` A Yes, I agree.
` Q And would you agree that he's a well-known and
`well-respected expert in the field of user
`authentication?
` A Yes, I agree.
` Q Would you agree that he's a well-known and
`well-respected expert in the field of biometrics?
` A Slightly less so, but he's knowledgeable.
` Q Dr. Jakobsson, I have handed you copies of the
`'137 patent, which is Apple Exhibit 1101, and the '826
`patent, which is Apple Exhibit 1001 in IPR 2018-810.
` Do you recognize those?
` A Yes. This one has not been marked.
` Do you want to mark it?
` Q Sure. Hand it back to me.
` MR. KAERICHER: Thanks.
` A Thank you.
` Q And for convenience today, I'll refer to these
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`14
`
`by the patent numbers rather than the exhibit numbers.
`Is that acceptable?
` A Understood.
` Q You've read both the '137 and '826 patents,
`correct?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q When was the first time that you read them?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I don't remember the exact time, but after I
`was retained on this case.
` Q You first became aware of the '137 and '826
`patents after you were retained by USR, correct?
` A Or in conjunction with retaining.
` Q You were not aware of the '137 patent or the
`'826 patents before you were contacted by counsel?
` A That's correct.
` Q For USR, correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q So the first time that you became aware of the
`existence of the '137 and '826 patents was in connection
`with these IPRs, correct?
` A No. Because I think I was not aware of the
`IPRs by the time I was retained.
` Q Fair enough. But to be clear, the first time
`that you ever learned of the existence of the '137 and
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`15
`
`'826 patents was when you were contacted by counsel for
`USR about the possibility of you being retained.
` A In conjunction with that, yes.
` Q The '826 and '137 patents have never been
`mentioned in any academic papers, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection; calls for
`speculation.
` A I wouldn't know.
` Q The '137 and '826 patents have never been
`discussed at any industry conferences, to your
`knowledge, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Same objection. Objection to
`form.
` A To my knowledge, they have not.
` Q The '137 and '826 patents have never been the
`subject of any academic industry or other praise or
`acclaim, to your knowledge, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Same objections.
` A Yeah. I would not have known about it if they
`were.
` Q You are not aware of the '137 or '826 patents
`ever having been licensed, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Same objections.
` A I don't know about the licensing history for
`these.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`16
`
` Q You are not aware of anyone requesting a
`license to the '137 or '826 patents, correct?
` A My work as an expert witness here has not
`involved looking into the license histories at all.
` Q And, therefore, you're not aware of anyone
`requesting a license to either the '137 or '826 patents,
`correct?
` A I'm absolutely unaware of the licensing
`history.
` Q You're not aware of any awards being given for
`the '826 or '137 patents, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A In general, I'm not aware of awards being.
`Given for patents -- if you mean scientific awards?
` Q Awards of any type.
` A So do you mean settlements as an award?
` Q That would be an example.
` A I'm not familiar with any settlements, either,
`for these patents.
` Q Okay. So you're not aware of any praise,
`acclaim, or awards for the '826 or '137 patents,
`correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I have not been asked to review that or to --
`I have not been given information about that either.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`17
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` Q And, therefore, you're not aware of any,
`correct?
` A I've only studied these in the context of what
`I've been asked to do. So I'm not aware of anything
`beyond what I've been asked to review.
` Q And you're not aware of any praise, acclaim,
`or awards for the '826 or '137 patents, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I am not aware of such.
` Q Had you -- you see the inventor named on the
`136 -- strike that.
` You see that the --inventor named on the '826
`and '137 patents is Kenneth P. Weiss?
` A Yes.
` Q Had you ever heard of -- of Ken Weiss before
`you were contacted by counsel for USR?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. When have you heard of him?
` A He developed technology that was key component
`of RSA -- by the acquisition of Security Dynamics, I
`believe, and I used to work for RSA. Much of the work
`that I did while at RSA was in context of the security
`token, which was an invention of his.
` Q You never discussed the '826 or '137 patents
`with Mr. Weiss, correct?
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`18
`
` MR. KAERICHER: Lacks foundation, form.
` A I have never met Mr. Weiss.
` Q Have you ever talked to Mr. Weiss?
` A Not knowing that I did so. If he were ever on
`a phone call with me, I was not aware of it.
` Q Would you recognize Mr. Weiss?
` A No.
` Q Do you know if Mr. Weiss is an engineer?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection; form. Calls for
`speculation.
` A I -- I don't know anything about him really
`other than his achievements.
` Q Have you ever spoken to anyone other than
`counsel about Mr. Weiss?
` A Not in any great detail, but when I worked at
`RSA, of course, much of what we worked on related to the
`technology that he invented. And so probably, in
`passing, somebody would say something about Mr. Weiss.
` Q Do you remember the specifics of any of those
`conversations?
` A Not whatsoever.
` Q Okay. All right. Could you put in front of
`you USR Exhibit 2014.
` A Yes.
` Q This is your declaration in support of the
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`19
`
`conditional motion to amend the '137 patent; is that
`right?
` A That's right.
` Q And will you turn, please, to paragraph 33.
` A Give me a moment to review it, please.
` Q Of course.
` A Yes.
` Q In paragraph 33, you testify that you reviewed
`the provisional applications, correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q Did you read all of the provisional
`applications?
` A Are you saying did I read the entirety of the
`provisional applications cited in here?
` Q Yes.
` A I did not.
` Q What portions did you read?
` A The portions that I deemed to be relevant, and
`the other portions I skimmed.
` Q How did you determine what portions you deemed
`relevant?
` A In the context of the claim amendment, if I
`saw that a paragraph was not addressing anything that
`seemed relevant, then I would skim it as opposed to read
`it carefully.
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`USR Exhibit 2017, Page 20
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`
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`20
`
` Q How many provisional applications are there?
` A I don't remember.
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A There are at least two, but I know that there
`are more. I don't recall the exact number.
` Q You testify in paragraph 33 of your
`declaration that, quote, It is my opinion that each
`limitation of the proposed substitute claims 13
`through 21 is disclosed in and fully supported by the
`provisional applications to which the '137 patent claims
`priority.
` Did I read that correctly?
` A Yes.
` Q So is it your opinion that each limitation of
`the proposed substitute claims 13 through 21 is fully
`supported by the first provisional application filed in
`February of 2006?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A That's not what I said.
` Q Is each limitation of the proposed substitute
`claims 13 through 21 fully supported by the provisional
`application filed February 2006?
` A I wasn't asked to consider that, and I would
`have to review it more carefully to tell if that is so.
` Q Do you know, as you sit here today, whether
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`
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`21
`
`each limitation of the proposed substitute claims 13
`through 21 is fully supported by the first provisional
`application filed in February 2006?
` A I don't know it to be the case.
` Q Do you know, as you sit here today, whether
`each limitation of the proposed substitute claims 13
`through 21 is fully supported by the second provisional
`application filed in June of 2006?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A And by that, you mean by itself.
` Q Yes.
` A Not to my knowledge, but I haven't been asked
`to review that and consider that.
` Q Have you considered the second provisional
`application filed in June of 2006 at all in determining
`whether the proposed substitute claims are supported?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I don't refer to the applications by the
`filing date, and I actually don't remember the filing
`dates. What application are you asking about?
` Q The provisional application filed in June of
`2006.
` A Right. Does it have a number that we could
`refer to?
` Q Sure. Let me hand you what I've --
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`22
`
` A Thank you.
` Q -- what has been marked as USR Exhibit 2009.
`Do you recognize that?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Have you reviewed that?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q And my question to you is, is each limitation
`of the proposed substitute claims 13 through 21 fully
`supported by the second provisional application filed in
`June of 2006 marked as USR Exhibit 2009?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I'm sorry. I haven't considered that question
`before, and I don't know. If you would like me to, I
`could review them, the claims.
` Q You have set forth in your declaration marked
`as USR Exhibit 2014 the full basis for your belief that
`each limitation of the proposed substitute claims 13
`through 21 is fully supported by the provisional
`applications, correct?
` A I have provided evidence for it. There might
`be additional evidence. You could see for each claim
`limitation in each claim there's a long list of support.
`I did not go to great pains to make that exhaustive and
`complete; just sufficient.
` Q Okay. Dr. Jakobsson, devices existed before
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`23
`
`2006 that used codes that varied over time for
`authentication, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A That is correct.
` Q Are you familiar with the RSA SecurID token?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q Can you tell us what that is?
` A It's a password replacement technology that
`has a small screen that displays for each time interval
`a multidigit code, typically, I believe, six digits
`long, and the time here, I believe, is set to 30 seconds
`or 60 seconds based on the exact product. And a user
`would use this instead of a password when logging in to
`a resource. So one would enter one's user name as
`normal in a normal login interface, and then one would
`enter the code from this device into the password field.
`And a verifier would compute the same code based on the
`record associated with your user name and determine if
`that same -- if that code is indeed the same, and, if
`so, that would result in a login approval. That would
`be the same action as if the password were correct.
` Q Would you agree that the RSA SecurID token was
`sold before 2006?
` A It was.
` Q So the RSA SecurID token is an example of a
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`24
`
`device that existed before 2006 that used codes that
`varied over time for authentication, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A That is correct.
` Q The RSA SecurID token was first sold in 2002,
`correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection; calls for
`speculation.
` A I don't know actually know.
` Q Did you ever use or own a SecurID token
`yourself?
` A I was a user of the security token.
` Q And did you do so before 2006?
` A I cannot remember exactly when. I believe I
`did. I believe I did at least while I was working at
`RSA, which was before 2006.
` Q The RSA SecurID used a time-varying value to
`authenticate users, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I'm not sure it's a time-varying value as in
`the limitations here, but it was a value that varied
`over time, which is this code that we've been speaking
`about.
` Is that the question you are answering?
` Q It is. But let me ask it again just to make
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
`
`25
`
`sure we're clear, and I'll try to use your words.
` The RSA SecurID token used a value that varied
`over time to authenticate users, correct?
` A So let me clarify that, actually. So the
`output would not be the same for each time period; the
`output being this multidigit code. So that one was
`different over time.
` I understand that, for example, Dr. Shoup
`argues that the time-varying value is not the code that
`resulted in the screen, but he argues that it's the
`value that, in some of these documents, is referred to
`as T, which is a counter corresponding to time. So
`that's why I mention that in the context of the claim
`limitations, it -- my answer does not apply to the claim
`limitations unless we look at each particular claim
`limitation and consider what the question is.
` Q Okay. I'm -- I'm just asking you about the --
`the SecurID token.
` A The SecurID token has an output that varies
`over time.
` Q And the output of the SecurID token varies
`over time to authenticate a user, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A It doesn't vary over time in order to
`authenticate a user.
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`26
`
` Q You would agree that the SecurID token has a
`output that varies over time, correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q And you'd agree that publications existed
`before 2006 that describe codes that varied over time
`for the purpose of authentication, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form;
`speculation.
` A They did not vary over time in order to
`authenticate the user. They authenticated the user, and
`they varied over time.
` Q You'd agree that publications existed before
`2006 that described codes that varied over time,
`correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Same objections.
` A Yes.
` Q And, in fact, the '585 reference discloses
`time-varying values, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Same objections.
` A '585 describes a password replacement device
`that has an output that is different by time intervals.
` Q So is the answer to my question yes?
` A I believe I understood your question, but
`would you restate it?
` Q Sure. The '585 reference describes
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`27
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`time-varying values, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A Yes, it does.
` Q In fact it uses the expression "time-varying
`value," correct?
` A I believe it does.
` Q So the '585 reference is an example of a
`publication that existed before 2006 that described
`time-varying values, correct?
` A It does describe time-varying values, and I
`believe it was published in 2004.
` Q And the time-varying values disclosed in the
`'585 reference were used in connection with
`authenticating users, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A It was part of the construction, yes.
` Q Would you agree that the '137 patent does not
`disclose any new ways of generating time-varying codes
`that didn't exist already in 2006?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A I haven't specifically been asked to consider
`that; so I'd have to take a good look at it to see. I
`can't remember seeing anything that does, but I also
`haven't made sure that there's nothing that does.
` Q As you sit here, you don't know of any
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`Transcript of Bjorn Markus Jakobsson, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2019
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`28
`
`disclosure in the '137 patent of a new way of generating
`time-varying codes, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Same objection.
` A Give me a moment, please.
` The specific generation of the time-varying
`codes, I do not believe that I ever -- have seen a new
`method of generating them in '137.
` Q And the provisional patent applications to
`which the '137 patent claims priority don't discuss any
`new ways of generating time-varying codes, correct?
` MR. KAERICHER: Objection to form.
` A Again, this is one of those things that I was
`not asked to verify, and I did not spend any great time
`looking for this. When I skimmed things, if there were
`such a disclosure, it's pro
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