Victor John Shoup
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Case IPR2018-00809, IPR2018-00810,
`
`IPR2018-0081
`
`U.S. Patent No. 9,530,137
`
`U.S. Patent No. 9,100,826
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` -against-
`
`UNIVERSAL SECURE REGISTRY, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
` EXAMINATION BEFORE TRIAL of
`
`VICTOR JOHN SHOUP, taken by Patent Owner,
`
`pursuant to Notice, held at the offices of
`
`Wilmer Hale, 250 Greenwich Street, New York,
`
`New York, commencing at 9:08 a.m. on
`
`December 14, 2018, before Garry J. Torres,
`
`a Court Reporter, and Notary Public of the
`
`State of New York.
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`Job No. 3174227
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`Pages 1 - 205
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`USR Exhibit 2011, Page 1
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 this deposition is waived.
`2 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED, a copy
`3 of this examination shall be furnished to
`4 the attorney for the witness being
`5 examined without charge.
`6 * * *
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`789
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`23
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`Attorneys for Petitioner
`4 APPLE INC.
`5 WILMER HALE
`6 60 State Street
`7 Boston, Massachusetts 02109
`8 TEL: (617) 526-6223
`9 monica.grewal@wilmerhale.com
`10 BY: MONICA GREWAL, ESQ.
`11 KELVIN CHAN, ESQ.
`12 MARK D. SELWYN, ESQ.
`13
`14
`15 Attorneys for Defendant
`16 UNIVERSAL SECURE REGISTRY, LLC,
`17 QUINN EMANUEL
`18 50 California Street, 22nd Floor
`19 San Francisco, California 94111
`20 TEL: (415) 875-6423
`21 EMAIL: brianmack@quinnemanuel.com
`22 BY: BRAIN E. MACK, ESQ.
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`1 STIPULATIONS
`2 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED, by and
`3 between the attorneys for the respective
`4 parties hereto, that:
`5 All rights provided by the C.P.L.R.,
`6 and Part 221 of the Uniform Rules for the
`7 Conduct of Depositions, including the
`8 right to object to any question, except as
`9 to form, or to move to strike any
`10 testimony at this examination is reserved;
`11 and in addition, the failure to object to
`12 any question or to move to strike any
`13 testimony at this examination shall not be
`14 a bar or waiver to make such motion at and
`15 is reserved to, the trial of this action.
`16 This deposition may be sworn to by the
`17 witness being examined before a Notary
`18 Public other than the Notary Public before
`19 whom this examination was begun but the
`20 failure to do so or to return the original
`21 of this deposition to counsel, shall not
`22 be deemed a waiver of the rights provided
`23 by Rule 3116, C.P.L.R. and shall be
`24 controlled thereby.
`25 The filing of the original of
`
`1 V I C T O R J O H N S H O U P,
`2 having first been duly sworn by
`3 Garry J. Torres, the Notary
`4 Public, was examined and
`5 testified as follows:
`6 MR. MACK: Good morning, Dr.
`7 Shoup.
`8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
`9 MR. MACK: Could you please
`10 state your name and home address for
`11 the record?
`12 THE WITNESS: My name is Victor
`13 John Shoup and my address is One
`14 Washington Square Village, Apartment
`15 9N, New York, New York 10012.
`16 MR. MACK: And you've been
`17 deposed before today, correct?
`18 THE WITNESS: No.
`19 MR. MACK: This is your first
`20 deposition?
`21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`22 MR. MACK: We're run through
`23 some ground briefly since this is your
`24 first deposition.
`25 You understand that you are
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 under oath to tell the truth today?
`2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`3 MR. MACK: It's the same oath
`4 you would be under if you were
`5 testifying in a court of law, do you
`6 need that?
`7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`8 MR. MACK: We have a court
`9 reporter who will be transcribing all
`10 of your answers. So please speak
`11 clearly and slowly for the record and
`12 if you don't understand one of my
`13 questions please ask for
`14 clarification, do you understand that?
`15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`16 MR. MACK: Because he is
`17 transcribing the answers you'll have
`18 to verbalize all your answers and
`19 refrain from head nods, things like
`20 that; is that understood?
`21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`22 MR. MACK: If you do answer one
`23 of my questions I'll assume you
`24 understood the question; is that fair.
`25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
`1 MR. MACK: Otherwise, please ask
`2 for clarification.
`3 MR. MACK: Is there anything
`4 that would prevent you from providing
`5 complete and honest testimony today?
`6 Are you on any medication?
`7 THE WITNESS: No. The only
`8 thing I'd like to tell you is I forgot
`9 my reading glasses. So I will be able
`10 to read, but it will look funny
`11 because I'll have to hold the paper
`12 close to my face.
`13 MR. MACK: That's fine.
`14 THE WITNESS: It won't be an
`15 impediment.
`16 MR. MACK: Fortunately there's
`17 no video today.
`18 So from time to time your
`19 attorneys may object to some of my
`20 questions. Please answer my questions
`21 despite any objection unless your
`22 attorney specifically instructs you
`23 not answer, do you understand that?
`24 THE WITNESS: Understood.
`25 EXAMINATION
`
`1 BY MR. MACK:
`2 MR. MACK: Dr. Shoup, you are
`3 being compensated for your work on
`4 this case; is that correct?
`5 THE WITNESS: I'm paid for my
`6 time on the case, yes.
`7 Q. What is your hourly rate that
`8 you're charging for this case?
`9 A. My rate is $400 an hour.
`10 Q. Is that your customary hourly
`11 rate?
`12 A. Yes.
`13 Q. You mentioned that you haven't
`14 been deposed before, but you have
`15 performed consulting for intellectual
`16 property matters before, correct?
`17 A. That is correct.
`18 Q. How many different consulting
`19 matters are you currently engaged on?
`20 A. This is the only one right now.
`21 Q. How much money have you
`22 collected to date on this engagement? Why
`23 don't we start with just billed to date.
`24 How much money have you billed to date on
`25 this engagement?
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`Page 8
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`1 A. I didn't look at my records
`2 before coming today to get an exact
`3 number. I could estimate.
`4 Q. What would that estimate be?
`5 A. I think between 200, 250 hours.
`6 Q. Have you received payment for
`7 all of those hours?
`8 A. All of the invoices I've
`9 submitted have been paid in a timely
`10 manner.
`11 Q. Those hours, would those be the
`12 collective hours for the three matters
`13 that we're discussing today, the
`14 IPR2018-00809 matter, the 810 matter and
`15 the 813 matter?
`16 A. Oh, those are the IPR numbers?
`17 Q. Yes.
`18 A. I see.
`19 Q. The IPRs relating to the 137
`20 patent and the 826 patent.
`21 A. I understand the question. The
`22 number I quoted you before, the estimate I
`23 quoted you was for all the work I've done
`24 on the four patents that I believe USR has
`25 been -- that are under litigation.
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 Q. When did you begin your
`2 consulting engagement in this matter?
`3 A. The exact date. I don't recall
`4 exactly, but it was -- I was -- started
`5 sometime in late summer or fall of 2017.
`6 Q. Who first contacted you about
`7 this case?
`8 A. It was either Monica or there
`9 was somebody else in the email chain
`10 beforehand who I didn't have much contact
`11 with since. I don't remember her name.
`12 Q. How did Monica obtain your
`13 contact information? Had you worked with
`14 the law firm of Wilmer Hale before?
`15 A. I don't know how she came up
`16 with me contact information.
`17 Q. Are you currently using any
`18 expert referral agencies?
`19 A. Not actively. However, a
`20 colleague of mine Avi Rubin runs a
`21 consulting company and at some point he
`22 may have put my picture and bio on his
`23 website, but honestly as far as know I've
`24 never gotten any bites through that.
`25 Q. What's the name of the
`
`1 fall of 2017 by the time it happened.
`2 Q. Have you had any contact with
`3 attorneys for Visa or engineers at Visa?
`4 A. No.
`5 Q. Is any of your compensation paid
`6 by Visa?
`7 A. I don't think so, no.
`8 MR. MACK: I'll mark as -- it's
`9 already been marked as Apple 1102.
`10 This is your declaration support of
`11 inter partes review of US patent
`12 9530137 in case IPR2018-00809.
`13 THE WITNESS: Do you mind if I
`14 just label these for my own
`15 convenience?
`16 MR. MACK: Sure.
`17 Q. This is one of the declarations
`18 that you submitted in connection with this
`19 case, correct?
`20 A. That's correct.
`21 Q. When did you begin working on
`22 this declaration?
`23 A. I don't recall the exact date.
`24 Q. Would it have been sometime in
`25 late 2017?
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`1 consulting company that Mr. Rubin runs?
`2 A. Honestly, I don't know.
`3 Q. How do you know Mr. Rubin?
`4 A. We worked together at Bellcore
`5 in the 90s.
`6 Q. The compensation that you've
`7 received to date, who has paid that
`8 compensation, from the law firm Wilmer
`9 Hale?
`10 A. Well, I submit my invoices to
`11 Wilmer Hale to Mark Selwin and then at
`12 some later date some money appears in my
`13 bank account and I have to say I -- I
`14 couldn't say with a hundred percent
`15 certainty whose name was on the check so
`16 to speak. I assume it's either Wilmer
`17 Hale or Apple but...
`18 Q. Do you have a formal engagement
`19 agreement with Wilmer Hale or Apple?
`20 A. Yes, I signed an engagement
`21 letter at the beginning of our work
`22 together.
`23 Q. So that would have been sometime
`24 in the late summer or fall of 2017?
`25 A. Yeah, probably more like the
`
`1 A. Yes.
`2 Q. If you look on page 75 of
`3 Exhibit 1102 that's your signature,
`4 correct?
`5 A. Page 75?
`6 Q. Yes.
`7 A. Yes.
`8 Q. You submitted this declaration
`9 in April 2018, correct?
`10 A. Yes, it's dated April 4, 2018.
`11 Q. Approximately, do you recall how
`12 many hours you spent preparing this
`13 declaration?
`14 A. As I've told you, I've worked at
`15 my best -- I think a fairly accurate
`16 estimate for the total amount of time I've
`17 spent on the four patents is 200 to
`18 250 hours and a lot of that was amortized
`19 over many of the patents because the
`20 specifications in those patents had a lot
`21 of similarities. Some of the prior art
`22 that was used in the analysis was shared
`23 among several of them. So to answer your
`24 question, I think I'd rather just say that
`25 it's roughly 1/4 of the total that I
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 quoted you for.
`2 Q. Fair enough. And did you
`3 personal draft the entirety of this
`4 declaration exhibit 1102?
`5 A. Well, the steps I took to
`6 prepare the declaration or to first read
`7 and analyze the 137 patent itself and then
`8 to analyze the prior art references and
`9 then after that I organized my thoughts
`10 and constructed the mappings in
`11 collaboration with -- and in consultation
`12 with rather, attorneys from Apple.
`13 Q. So is it fair to say you did not
`14 personally draft the entirety of the
`15 exhibit 1102 the declaration?
`16 A. As I said, I drafted it in
`17 consultation with attorneys from Apple.
`18 We had various discussions back and forth
`19 about what would be the best way for me to
`20 present the language to present my
`21 analysis in a format suitable for a
`22 declaration such as this, but in the end
`23 the final product is my own words.
`24 Q. If you take a look at the table
`25 of contents of exhibit 1102 can you
`
`1 beginning to end by someone typing. The
`2 document was written after thorough
`3 analysis by me and then even if I didn't
`4 physically input the characters into the
`5 word processor I did review and
`6 interactively refine the finished product.
`7 Q. And you mentioned proposed
`8 mappings, would those be proposed mappings
`9 between the claim language and the prior
`10 art?
`11 A. Yes, when I'm referring to
`12 mappings that's what I'm referring to.
`13 Q. Did you personally come up with
`14 any of the mappings that are described in
`15 your declaration exhibit 1102?
`16 MS. GREWAL: Objection.
`17 A. As I said, there were a number
`18 of lengthy conversations and brain storm
`19 sessions where we would discuss various
`20 mappings. I don't recall who proposed
`21 what mappings. It was a very interactive
`22 process and in the end the decision on
`23 which mapping and how to best technically
`24 apply it was my own decision.
`25 Q. When is the last time you
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`1 identify any sections or subsection s that
`2 you personally wrote and input into the
`3 document?
`4 A. Well, like I said, each section
`5 and each paragraph in each section and
`6 each sentence of each section was -- is my
`7 own words.
`8 Q. My question is a little bit
`9 different. Were there any sections of
`10 your declaration exhibit 1102 that you
`11 personally drafted the entirety of and
`12 physically inputted into the computer word
`13 processing application?
`14 A. We did use a word processor and
`15 I think in our discussions in addition to
`16 the telephone discussions I mentioned, the
`17 process was that after I described the map
`18 -- proposed mappings and analysis the
`19 attorneys from Apple would discuss the
`20 best way to present this and then I would
`21 look at a draft that was given to me and
`22 then there would be a back and forth.
`23 So the final product was
`24 really -- I mean, I don't think so it's
`25 fair to say the document was written from
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`1 reviewed the 137 patent?
`2 A. Yesterday.
`3 Q. Would that have been in
`4 presentation for today's deposition?
`5 A. That's correct.
`6 Q. So you had a meeting yesterday
`7 to prepare for today's deposition; is that
`8 correct?
`9 A. That's correct.
`10 Q. For how long did you meet
`11 yesterday?
`12 A. Four hours.
`13 Q. Who was present at that meeting?
`14 A. Monica Grewal and Kelvin Chan.
`15 Q. During your prep session
`16 yesterday did you speak with anyone other
`17 than attorneys?
`18 A. No.
`19 Q. In connection with your opinions
`20 in this case, have you spoken with any
`21 Apple engineers?
`22 A. No.
`23 Q. How about any Apple employees
`24 that are not engineers?
`25 A. No.
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 Q. Have you spoken with any Visa
`2 employees in connection with your opinions
`3 in this case?
`4 A. No.
`5 Q. Let me take a look at your CV.
`6 I believe it's attached as appendix A to
`7 your declaration exhibit 1102. Starts on
`8 page 77; is that correct?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. Is this an accurate and current
`11 copy of your CV?
`12 A. I think it was current at the
`13 time that this was submitted.
`14 Q. Is there a more recent version?
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. What has changed in your CV
`17 since the time this was submitted?
`18 A. Well, I don't have my
`19 current -- I mean, the newer CV in front
`20 of me right now. Just a moment. As to
`21 the best of my knowledge and again, this
`22 is without looking at my current CV to
`23 compare this to, to the best of my
`24 knowledge the only thing that's changed is
`25 a couple of -- one or two additional
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`1 Q. That thesis also didn't relate
`2 to biometric authentication, right?
`3 A. That's correct.
`4 Q. Your Ph.D. was in computer
`5 science?
`6 A. Yes.
`7 Q. You also obtained a masters in
`8 computer science as well?
`9 A. That's correct.
`10 Q. Did you have any course work as
`11 part of your bachelors, masters or Ph.D.
`12 study relating to biometric
`13 authentication?
`14 A. No.
`15 Q. How about electronic payment
`16 systems?
`17 A. No, and I just want to point out
`18 at the time I got my Ph.D. or rather after
`19 I got my Ph.D. a couple of years later is
`20 when I actually started transitioning into
`21 cryptography.
`22 Q. But no specific course work as
`23 part of your Ph.D., bachelors or masters
`24 degree related to authentication systems
`25 or cryptography, correct?
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`1 research articles published.
`2 Q. But the employment history,
`3 education and the honors and awards
`4 section those are still current?
`5 A. That's correct.
`6 Q. You received your Ph.D. in 1989
`7 according to CV, correct?
`8 A. That's correct.
`9 Q. Your thesis title it says is
`10 removing randomness from computational
`11 number theory; is that right?
`12 A. That's correct.
`13 Q. What was the general subject
`14 matter of your thesis?
`15 A. It was broadly speaking
`16 algorithms for finite fields.
`17 Q. I take it your thesis was not
`18 related to electronic payment systems,
`19 correct?
`20 A. That's correct.
`21 Q. So when it says removing
`22 randomness, is that just examining the
`23 extent to which randomness can be avoided
`24 in algorithms?
`25 A. That is correct.
`
`1 A. That's not true.
`2 Q. What course work have you had
`3 related to -- let's start with
`4 authentication systems?
`5 A. Well, the course work I took as
`6 a graduate student and also my Ph -- my
`7 Ph.D. thesis itself involved a lot of
`8 mathematics and tools that are used in
`9 cryptography in general and many of them
`10 are used directly in various
`11 authentication systems.
`12 Q. Have you ever developed an
`13 authentication system?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. What system was that?
`16 A. So in 1996 with the
`17 aforementioned Avi Rubin as co-author I
`18 designed a protocol for session key
`19 distribution using smart cards. Now, the
`20 title doesn't say it, but session key
`21 distribution means authenticated key
`22 exchange. So as a part of such a protocol
`23 two parties can authenticate each other
`24 and in addition to that, share a session
`25 key.
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 Q. Now, it looks like your reading
`2 from your resume.
`3 A. I'm just making sure I don't
`4 miss anything.
`5 Q. Which page are you looking at?
`6 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Page 83.
`7 Q. I'm trying to follow along.
`8 A. Sure.
`9 Q. 83?
`10 A. That would be line Numbered 43
`11 in my listed publications.
`12 Q. So that's the entry on the
`13 security of a practical --
`14 A. No. No, I'm sorry. I read the
`15 number wrong. 44, session key
`16 distribution using smart cards. And then
`17 as you correctly point out I'm moving up
`18 backwards in time -- I mean, from older
`19 newer. 43 on the security of a practical
`20 identification scheme.
`21 That's not so much the design of
`22 a new scheme, but the analysis of an old
`23 scheme that had never been properly
`24 analyzed before and then moving up on line
`25 42 on fast and provably secure message
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`1 papers 45, 42, 43, 44?
`2 A. Yes, but before I elaborate on
`3 that further I'd like to say that there's
`4 more than I wanted to go through in answer
`5 to your previous question. So which order
`6 do you want to do things in?
`7 Q. Sure. Why don't you finish your
`8 previous answer.
`9 A. Line 33 is on a signature -- I'm
`10 sorry. Line 33 is a paper on signature
`11 schemes based on the strong RSA
`12 assumption. That paper has a new
`13 signature scheme, which is also a
`14 fundamental building block in all -- in
`15 many authentication protocols.
`16 A. I realized maybe I can skip over
`17 a few more papers in that genre, which are
`18 fundamental tools for authentication
`19 protocols rather than protocols themselves
`20 because there's a lot of them and you can
`21 ask questions about them if you'd like,
`22 but there are more protocols specific
`23 papers. So let me continue.
`24 Line -- okay. On page 82, line
`25 19 I wrote a paper called anonymous
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`1 authentication based on universal hashing.
`2 That's a paper about message
`3 authentication codes that are often times
`4 used in the design and implementation of
`5 secure authentication protocols.
`6 And moving up -- well, I can
`7 mention 35, a practical public key crypto
`8 system provably secure against adaptive
`9 chosen cybertechs attack. I mention that
`10 simply because that's a fundamental
`11 algorithm for public key encryption, which
`12 is also used in a variety of
`13 authentication protocols.
`14 Q. Now, did the work on any of
`15 these papers result in the actual
`16 development of a real-world authentication
`17 system?
`18 A. By "real-world" do you mean a
`19 physical or a software implementation or
`20 do you mean a product that was in the
`21 marketplace?
`22 Q. Why don't we start with software
`23 or hardware implementation. Did you
`24 actually implementation any authentication
`25 system in connection your work on these
`
`1 identification in ad hoc groups. That's a
`2 type of -- in that paper I developed a
`3 type of authentication protocol that
`4 provided a certain level of anonymity for
`5 the users in the system.
`6 Q. When you say "system" was that
`7 an actual software or hardware
`8 implementation of a system or a
`9 theoretical system?
`10 A. Can we go back to talking about
`11 which systems are actually implemented or
`12 not as a separate question?
`13 Q. Sure.
`14 A. Then on line 11, anonymous
`15 credentials on standard Java cards. So
`16 this a type of authentication scheme that
`17 you would use again to provide anonymity
`18 to users. Line 9, credential
`19 authentication identification and key
`20 exchange. That's again an authentication
`21 scheme and key exchange scheme that
`22 provides certain levels of anonymity.
`23 Line 8 anonymous credentials on a Java
`24 cards. That's again a type of
`25 authentication protocol that provides
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 anonymity and, yeah. Like I said, there
`2 are many others in here that provide
`3 building blocks that are used in these and
`4 other schemes, but I won't go into that
`5 those right.
`6 Q. So we go back to the other
`7 question.
`8 A. Right. The implement or --
`9 right.
`10 Q. Sure.
`11 A. So the -- going back to line 44
`12 on page 83, session key distribution using
`13 smart cards. That was implemented by a
`14 group, but it wasn't done by me.
`15 Q. When you say it was implemented
`16 by a group, did someone take the protocol
`17 that was described in paper 44 and
`18 implement it?
`19 A. That's correct. There may have
`20 been -- I mean, I knew about the work at
`21 the time and there may have been some
`22 conversations that I had with the group,
`23 but I don't want to say too much there
`24 because it was a long time ago.
`25 Q. What was the group that
`
`1 A. No.
`2 Q. When it says anonymous
`3 credentials what does that mean?
`4 A. So as an example, that means
`5 that I could authenticate myself to you
`6 not by telling you who I am and proving
`7 that I am who I am, but rather by telling
`8 you that I have a certain credential such
`9 as a driver's license or that I have a
`10 driver's license that says I'm over 18 and
`11 I can convince you that I have such a
`12 credential efficiently and with high
`13 security, but without revealing any more
`14 information about who I actually am.
`15 Q. So is it fair to say that the
`16 anonymous credentialing system didn't use
`17 any personally identifiable information in
`18 connection with the authentication?
`19 A. What do you mean by "personally
`20 identifiable information"?
`21 Q. Was there any -- so I think the
`22 way you just complained it there's no way
`23 to -- the authentication system described
`24 in papers 8 and 11, it didn't use any
`25 personal information associated with the
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`1 implemented this?
`2 A. I honestly don't know the name,
`3 but if you Google the paper you'll find
`4 the information.
`5 Q. Did that result in any
`6 commercial product?
`7 A. As far as I know, no. And then
`8 the only other one that I can be sure was
`9 implemented somewhere was -- to the best
`10 my knowledge the only other one that I'm
`11 aware of is the papers 8 and 11, which are
`12 variations on the same protocol and this I
`13 did work with -- this is work done while I
`14 was at IBM Zurich and I was involved in
`15 the implementation of that and I don't
`16 know what happened to that after I -- I
`17 mean, I'd left IBM and that may have
`18 been -- this was still a while ago -- that
`19 may have part of an EU project, for
`20 example, that's deployed in some prototype
`21 setting, but I'm not sure.
`22 Q. Sitting here today, are you
`23 aware of any commercial products that
`24 implemented this anonymous credential
`25 protocol?
`
`1 user, correct?
`2 A. I don't think that's correct.
`3 Q. And, for example, did it use any
`4 biometric information?
`5 A. Well, the protocols as designed
`6 were general enough as to accommodate
`7 biometric information as part of the
`8 authentication process.
`9 Q. But if it used biometric
`10 information that biometric wasn't sent
`11 anywhere outside the system, it would have
`12 been anonymous, right?
`13 A. In these particular protocols?
`14 Well, the protocols themselves were
`15 general enough that they could be deployed
`16 so as to reveal certain information and
`17 not reveal other information.
`18 Q. But if the protocol revealed
`19 personal information then it wouldn't be
`20 anonymous, right?
`21 MS. GREWAL: Objection.
`22 A. Reveal to whom?
`23 Q. Reveal to the party trying
`24 authenticate the user.
`25 A. So could you repeat the question
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 as a whole again so I can get content?
`2 MR. MACK: Sure. Could you
`3 repeat it?
`4 (Whereupon, a portion of the
`5 record was read back.)
`6 A. Okay. Circling back to that
`7 question. I think that's a simplistic way
`8 of characterizing the system since it's
`9 really a methodology that allows -- a
`10 technology that allows you to reveal or
`11 not reveal whatever you as the designer of
`12 the system want to reveal as part of the
`13 protocol and the word "anonymous" is a
`14 catch-all phrase that doesn't necessarily
`15 imply complete anonymity or lack thereof.
`16 Q. You would agree that a protocol
`17 that revealed personal identification
`18 information of the user being
`19 authenticated would not be an anonymous
`20 protocol?
`21 A. Like I said --
`22 MS. GREWAL: Objection.
`23 A. -- the juice of the term
`24 "anonymous" in the titles of these papers
`25 and the jargon among practitioners of this
`
`1 one particular type.
`2 Q. But specifically, have you ever
`3 designed a system that -- let me ask that
`4 again. Have you ever designed a system
`5 that specifically used biometric
`6 authentication as one of the inputs to the
`7 protocol?
`8 A. Like I said, at the level of
`9 design that these protocols are
`10 given -- are specified they allow a
`11 variety of types of input, one of which
`12 would be biometric.
`13 MR. MACK: Why don't we look
`14 at -- we'll mark as -- well, what has
`15 been premarked as Exhibit Apple 1101.
`16 This is a copy of US patent 9530137.
`17 Q. Dr. Shoup, you've seen this
`18 patent before, correct?
`19 A. Yes, I have.
`20 Q. And I think you said you
`21 reviewed this patent in your prep session
`22 yesterday, right?
`23 A. That's correct. Although in the
`24 prep session the focus was on the claim
`25 language.
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`1 technology is privacy preserving tool that
`2 refers to the notion of privacy preserving
`3 tool that allows you to reveal or not
`4 reveal whatever information is appropriate
`5 to the circumstances. So that may reveal
`6 personal information or it may not. It
`7 may reveal some personal information. It
`8 may not reveal other personal information.
`9 Q. Have you ever implemented a
`10 system for biometric authentication,
`11 hardware or software implementation?
`12 A. No, I haven't personally
`13 designed -- I mean, I haven't personally
`14 built such a system in software or
`15 hardware.
`16 Q. Have you ever personally
`17 designed the system for biometric
`18 authentication?
`19 MS. GREWAL: Objection.
`20 A. As I've said, the authentication
`21 schemes that I've described or -- the
`22 technology is general enough so that you
`23 can use various types of credentials or
`24 identifying information as inputs to the
`25 system and a biometric information is just
`
`1 Q. Have you ever read the entirety
`2 of US patent 9530137?
`3 A. Many times.
`4 Q. When is the last time you've
`5 read the entirety of this patent?
`6 A. Last time. It might have been a
`7 month ago.
`8 Q. In what context or why did you
`9 read the entirety of this patent a month
`10 ago?
`11 A. I read it to refresh my
`12 recollection of it in anticipation of a
`13 possible deposition.
`14 Q. Before your work on this case
`15 had you seen exhibit 1101 before, the 137
`16 patent?
`17 A. Did I see the 137 patent? No.
`18 Q. You see on the cover of the 137
`19 patent it lists the applicant as Universal
`20 Secure Registry LLC out of Newton,
`21 Massachusetts? Before your work in this
`22 case have you heard of Universal Secure
`23 Registry?
`24 A. No.
`25 Q. The inventor of the 137 patent
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`Victor John Shoup
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`1 is listed as Kenneth Weiss. Had you heard
`2 of Mr. Weiss before working on this case?
`3 A. No.
`4 Q. Why don't we turn to the claims
`5 of the 137 patent. Do you see column 45?
`6 A. Yes.
`7 Q. And I think you testified that
`8 you have reviewed -- you reviewed these
`9 claims yesterday, right?
`10 A. That's correct.
`11 Q. I'm going to ask you a couple
`12 questions about claim Number 1. Do you
`13 see claim Number 1 beginning on line 27?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. Do you see the clause beginning,
`16 a first processor?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. In that clause it references
`19 secret information and first biometric
`20 information, do you see that?
`21 A. That's correct.
`22 Q. You provided constructions for
`23 those two terms in your declaration,
`24 correct?
`25 A. That's correct.
`
`1 Q. Then you also provided a
`2 construction for secret information
`3 beginning in paragraph 42, do you see
`4 that?
`5 A. That's correct.
`6 Q. And again, just so we're clear,
`7 that was a construction that was provided
`8 to you, not a construction that you came
`9 up with, right?
`10 A. That's correct. As I stated,
`11 that was proposed by Apple and I was not
`12 involved in the development of that
`13 construction.
`14 Q. Then finally, the last term you
`15 proposed for -- the last term you identify
`16 for construction is "authentication
`17 information", do you see that on page 15?
`18 A. Right. Paragraph 45?
`19 Q. Yes.
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. Again, that construction that
`22 you proposed for authentication
`23 information that was something that was
`24 provided to you, not something that you
`25 came up with, right?
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`1 Q. Did you select which terms to
`2 provide constructi