Page 1
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` IPR2018-00766 (U.S. Patent No. 7,391,791)
` IPR2018-00767 (U.S. Patent No. 8,942,252)
`_______________________________________________________
` DEPOSITION OF: ATIF HASHMI, PH.D. - MARCH 8, 2019
`_______________________________________________________
`
` SONOS, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` IMPLICIT, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`_______________________________________________________
`
` PURSUANT TO NOTICE AND AGREEMENT, the
`DEPOSITION OF ATIF HASHMI, PH.D., was taken on behalf
`of the Petitioner at 1475 California Street, Denver,
`Colorado 80202, on March 8, 2019, at 9:33 a.m., before
`Doreen Girdeen, Certified Realtime Reporter, Registered
`Merit Reporter, and Notary Public within Colorado.
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4
`5
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 1 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` IPR2018-00766 (U.S. Patent No. 7,391,791)
` IPR2018-00767 (U.S. Patent No. 8,942,252)
`_______________________________________________________
` DEPOSITION OF: ATIF HASHMI, PH.D. - MARCH 8, 2019
`_______________________________________________________
`
` SONOS, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` IMPLICIT, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`_______________________________________________________
`
` PURSUANT TO NOTICE AND AGREEMENT, the
`DEPOSITION OF ATIF HASHMI, PH.D., was taken on behalf
`of the Petitioner at 1475 California Street, Denver,
`Colorado 80202, on March 8, 2019, at 9:33 a.m., before
`Doreen Girdeen, Certified Realtime Reporter, Registered
`Merit Reporter, and Notary Public within Colorado.
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4
`5
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 1 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`For the Petitioner: COLE B. RICHTER, ESQ.
` SEAN M. SULLIVAN, ESQ.
` Lee Sullivan Shea & Smith LLP
` 656 West Randolph Street
` Suite 5W
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
` (312) 754-9602
` richter@ls3ip.com
` sullivan@ls3ip.com
`For the Patent Owner: CHRISTIAN HURT, ESQ.
` The Davis Firm, PC
` 213 North Fredonia Street
` Suite 230
` Longview, Texas 75601
` (903) 230-9090
` churt@davisfirm.com
`Also Present: None
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 2 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
` I N D E X
` PAGE
`EXAMINATION OF ATIF HASHMI, PH.D.:
`March 8, 2019
`By Mr. Richter: 5
`By Mr. Hurt: 184
` INITIAL
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS REFERENCE
`Exhibit 2019 Timesync send function 169
`Exhibit 2051 Source code that corresponds 91
` to the file speaker.c
`Exhibit 2057 Source code that corresponds 117
` to the file timesync.rule file
`Exhibit 2088 Source code that corresponds 85
` to the file sampleclock.c
`(Electronically marked.)
`PREVIOUSLY MARKED DEPOSITION INITIAL
`EXHIBITS: REFERENCE
`Exhibit 1001 Copies of the 791 and 252 patents 26
`Exhibit 1009 Dr. Roman Chertov's declaration 50
`Exhibit 2043 Source code that corresponds to the 82
` file avidemux.c.
`Exhibit 2080 Atif Hashmi's declaration (Sonos v. 8
` Implicit, IPR2018-0766, -0767)
`Exhibit 2081 Claim charts U.S. Patent No. 9
` 7,391,791
`Exhibit 2082 Claim charts U.S. Patent No. 9
` 8,942,252
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`
`56
`
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 3 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 4
`
` I N D E X, Continued
` INFORMATION REQUESTED:
` (None)
`
` QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER:
` (None)
`
`1
`2
`
`34
`
`56789
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 4 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 5
`
` ATIF HASHMI, PH.D.,
`having been first duly sworn to state the whole truth,
`testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. RICHTER:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Hashmi.
` Could you please state and spell your full
`name for the record.
` A. Yes. My full name is Atif Hashmi. A-t-i-f
`H-a-s-h-m-i.
` Q. What's your home address?
` A. 4974 Bridgepoint Place, Union City,
`California.
` Q. How many times have you been deposed?
` A. Three times before.
` Q. And were those all patent cases?
` A. No.
` Q. How many patent cases have you been deposed
`in?
` A. None.
` Q. Just generally, what was the nature of each
`of those three cases in which you gave deposition
`testimony?
` A. Source code analysis.
` Q. And that's source code analysis for all three
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 5 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
`of those cases?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Since they were not patent cases, were they
`trade secret cases?
` A. No.
` Q. What was the -- just the general nature of
`the dispute in each of those three cases?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Relevance.
` A. Source code copyright infringement.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) So since you've been
`deposed before, you may know these ground rules
`already. But I'll just take a couple of minutes just
`to go over them again, in case they may be helpful.
` So as you probably know, the way this is
`going to work is that I'm going to ask you questions,
`and you're going to give us truthful answers. And your
`counsel, Mr. Hurt, may object from time to time. But
`unless he instructs you not to answer, we'll expect an
`answer. Is that okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If you don't understand a question or you
`need clarification, please ask. I'm happy to rephrase
`if anything is confusing. But otherwise, I'll
`understand that you -- I'll assume that you understand
`the question. Is that okay?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 6 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 7
`
` A. Yeah.
` Q. And if you need a break at any time, please
`let me know, and we'll accommodate any breaks that
`you'd like. However, if we have a question pending, I
`may just ask for an answer before we break. Is that
`okay?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Great.
` A. So along the same line, typically, when you
`ask me a question, I'll listen to your question and
`I'll take a brief pause to make sure I understand it.
`And if I don't, I'll ask you to rephrase it or
`reiterate it, and then I'll answer that question.
` Is that fair?
` Q. That's great.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And as you are aware, the court reporter here
`is transcribing our discussion. And so, just a
`friendly reminder that verbal answers are best. So try
`to refrain from uh-huhs or head shakes. Is that fair?
` A. Sure.
` Q. Do you have any questions about the procedure
`before we begin?
` A. No.
` THE DEPONENT: I think, just for the court
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 7 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 8
`reporter, if I start talking slow, like in a low
`volume, just to let me know. Sometimes when I'm
`talking, I just start to go down. So if you notice
`that, just give me a buzz.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Is there any reason why you
`are not able to testify truthfully today?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you on any medication, intoxicated, or
`aware of any other circumstance that may render you
`unable to give truthful testimony today?
` A. No.
` Q. Great.
` So you submitted two declarations in these
`IPR proceedings; is that correct?
` A. That is right.
` Q. And so I want to focus primarily on your
`declaration that is -- or has been previously marked as
`Exhibit 2080. And I think you told me that you brought
`a paper copy of that today. So please feel free to
`refer to that at any time. I have extra copies if you
`need. And maybe I'll just give one to Mr. Hurt as a
`courtesy.
` MR. HURT: You're not marking this as Exhibit
`1?
` MR. RICHTER: You know, we've been proceeding
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 8 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 9
`
`with just using the --
` MR. HURT: -- the IPR exhibit numbers?
` MR. RICHTER: The IPR exhibit numbers.
` A. Just so I have the right volume, this is the
`exhibit you are referring to?
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Yes. That's the -- yes,
`that looks correct.
` There are two additional exhibits that are
`claim charts. There is Exhibit 2081, and that's a
`claim chart for the 791 patent. And there's Exhibit
`2082, and that's a claim chart for the 252 patent. It
`looks like you may have brought paper copies of those
`with you as well. So please feel free to refer to
`those as well.
` MR. RICHTER: And I'll hand Mr. Hurt paper
`copies, in case he wants to look at those.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) So, Dr. Hashmi, in Exhibit
`2080, you provided an opinion that the BeComm source
`code practices the claims of the 791 patent and the 252
`patent; is that correct?
` A. As long as by the "BeComm" code you mean the
`Implicit source code as I referred to it in my
`declaration.
` Q. Yes. Actually, I appreciate that. Yes.
`Let's refer to that as the Implicit source code as you
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 9 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 10
`
`refer to it in your declaration.
` Can you take me through the methodology of
`how you arrived at that opinion?
` A. Yes. So I was provided with the CVS
`repository of the Implicit source code, and I was asked
`to review the source code prior to certain dates. I
`used the CVS repository to extract out the snapshot of
`the source code that existed prior to November 1, 2001.
`And I looked at another version -- or extracted another
`version of the source code that was prior to November
`15, 2001.
` After I had the two code bases and I analyzed
`the source code to get a high-level understanding of
`how it's implemented, afterwards, I reviewed the code
`in the light of the -- the -- the asserted -- or how do
`we say -- challenged claims with understanding of the
`terms as they were construed by Dr. Chertov in his IPR
`declaration. And then I did my analysis and prepared
`the claim charts. And based on the claim charts, I
`prepared my opening declaration.
` Q. Thank you. That was very helpful.
` Did you do anything else that you can recall
`to prepare this declaration?
` A. I relied on the source code. I relied on the
`documents that I have listed in my declaration as to
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 10 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 11
`the material I relied upon to form my opinions.
` Q. So the first thing you mentioned was that you
`were provided with the source code repository. Can you
`recall when you were provided with that repository?
` A. I don't remember the exact date. Let's say
`November of last year.
` Q. So that's November of 2018?
` A. That sounds about right, yeah.
` Q. And then, Dr. Hashmi --
` A. It could have been late October. Again, I'm
`a bit not clear on the exact date.
` Q. Okay. And can you tell me how or in what
`form you were provided with that repository?
` A. If I recall correctly, I was provided with a
`Dropbox link from where I downloaded the repository
`file.
` Q. And at that Dropbox link, was the source code
`repository contained within a single file?
` A. That is right.
` Q. Do you recall what type of file that was?
` A. It was a -- it was a compressed file.
` Q. Do you have experience with CVS repository
`files?
` A. I have worked with repositories, in general,
`including CVS, SVN, GIT -- different versions --
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 11 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 12
`
`throughout my career.
` Q. Who provided you with the link that you
`referred to earlier?
` A. I don't remember. In this case, I worked
`with several attorneys, so I don't exactly know who
`sent me that email. If it's important, I can look
`through my email and get you that answer.
` Q. No. I appreciate that.
` Can you -- sitting here today, can you recall
`if it was an attorney from the Davis Firm as opposed to
`an attorney from another firm, say, Singer/Bea?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. Okay. About how long would you estimate that
`you spent reviewing the source code before preparing
`your declaration?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Lacks foundation.
` Go ahead.
` A. The process of preparation of the
`declaration, to me, is a continuous process. So as I
`was preparing or analyzing my source code, I was also
`taking notes on what I see in some of those notes. And
`eventually, it ended up in the -- in the draft of the
`declaration.
` So it's not that I did my analysis and then I
`started writing stuff. It's a continuous process.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 12 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 13
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) So is it fair to say it was
`just a generally continuous -- from around November of
`2018 until when you signed your declaration in -- or on
`December 18, 2018?
` A. On and off, yes.
` Q. And did you review source code files
`primarily electronically, in paper, or both?
` A. To prepare my declaration, I reviewed the
`source code electronically.
` Q. So I think you had also told me that part of
`your methodically was that you reviewed the source code
`in light of the claims. So did you mean the claims of
`each of the 791 and the 252 patents?
` A. If I recall, I said the challenged claims.
`So the challenged claims for 791 and the challenged
`claims for 252 patents.
` Q. Got it.
` And is it fair to say, then, that you
`reviewed the 791 patent and the 252 patent in the
`preparation of your declaration?
` A. Yes. I reviewed the specification and the
`claims of the 791 and the 252 patent.
` Q. Can you estimate for me about how long you
`spent reviewing the patents?
` A. Again, as I said, it started in November and
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 13 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 14
`it was a continuous process. I didn't -- I listed
`here, I can't give you an exact number.
` Q. Did you also review the file histories of the
`patents?
` A. I don't believe so.
` Q. Did you construe the challenged claims of the
`patents?
` A. Can you explain that?
` Q. Sure.
` Did you apply definitions to any of the claim
`terms of the challenged claims of the patents?
` A. What do you mean by "definitions"?
` Q. Well, let me ask you. Do you have a
`understanding of what "definition" means?
` A. In general, I do what -- I do understand what
`"definition" means.
` Q. Well, in reviewing or analyzing the source
`code in light of the challenged claims, did you have an
`understanding of the meaning of the terms of the
`challenged claims?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Lacks foundation.
` A. I think, if I recall correctly, I mentioned
`that I used Dr. Chertov's declaration in which he has
`described the construction of the terms as the basis of
`my understanding of how the terms are used.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 14 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 15
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) What about -- well, I
`guess, just so I understand, then. In -- in analyzing
`the source code and coming to an opinion that the
`source code meets the elements of the challenged
`claims, am I correct that you applied Dr. Chertov's
`definition for the claim terms where he provided such a
`definition?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. What about for claim terms that Dr. Chertov
`did not provide a definition for?
` A. For those terms, I used my understanding of
`how the terms would be interpreted by a person of
`ordinary skill in the art.
` Q. Okay. And what definition did you use for a
`person of ordinary skill in the art?
` A. I believe I -- I reviewed Dr. Chertov's
`declaration, and I used the use definition as he has
`described in his declaration.
` Q. Do you have an opinion on whether
`Dr. Chertov's proposed constructions are correct?
` A. I think I stated in my declaration that I
`used those definitions but I don't have an opinion on,
`at the moment, whether I -- whether they are correct or
`not.
` Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion on whether the
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 15 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 16
`inventions of the 791 and 252 patents were reduced to
`practice?
` A. Can you explain what you mean by "reduced to
`practice"?
` Q. Sure.
` Let me just ask you. Do you have an
`understanding of what "reduced to practice" means?
` A. I would appreciate it if you can explain it.
` Q. Well, does that mean you don't have an
`understanding of what it means?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Mischaracterizes
`testimony. Calls for a legal conclusion.
` A. Again, I think the term is a legal term, so I
`want to make sure, like, I get it right. I'm not a
`legal -- I don't have a legal background, so I don't
`want to put in a definition of something that doesn't
`fall into my expertise here.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) And that's fair.
` And I'm not asking you to apply any legal
`definitions or legal terms. But if you have an
`understanding of what "reduction to practice" means,
`I'd like to use that understanding in my question. But
`if you don't have an understanding of what that means,
`then maybe we can move on. I can figure out another
`way to ask it.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 16 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 17
` So I guess my question, then, is, do you have
`an understanding of what "reduction to practice" means?
` MR. HURT: Same objections.
` A. So again, with the -- with the clarification
`that I'm not a legal person here -- well, I'm a legal
`person; I'm not a person with a legal background -- I
`can put forward what I think the term -- understanding
`you can correct me if I'm not correct.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Happy to.
` A. To me, it would mean whether the practice --
`the code -- the source code ran.
` Is that fair? Or...
` Q. Yeah. I think that's a fair understanding,
`if that's your understanding of reduction to practice.
` So let me ask the question, then, using that
`definition.
` Do you have an opinion on whether the
`inventions of the 791 and 252 patents were reduced to
`practice?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Calls for a legal
`conclusion.
` A. I did not run the source code.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) So would it be fair for me
`to say, then, you do not have an opinion on whether the
`inventions of the 791 and 252 patents were reduced to
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 17 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
`practice?
` MR. HURT: Same objection.
` A. I don't think that's what I said.
` There are several ways where you can
`determine whether the source code that you're examining
`has the possibility to run or not. And I was -- as I
`was reviewing source code where the entire repository
`contained all the elements that constituted a source
`code that I was provided with, I saw that the code, as
`it was implemented, was consistent with how a typical
`source code entity or base -- source code base is
`implemented.
` And from that sense, I did not see any
`markers where it would suggest that code would not run.
` Now, having said that, as I said, I did not
`run the code myself.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) And just so I'm clear.
`When you say that you did not run the code, can you
`tell me what you mean by -- what you mean by "run the
`code"?
` A. Sure.
` By running the code, I mean that I did not
`compile the code to produce a binding file that I can
`execute on a computer.
` Q. So using your definition of "reduction to
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 18 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 19
`practice" from earlier -- and I think it was whether
`the source code ran -- do you have an opinion on
`whether the source code was reduced to practice?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Calls for a legal
`conclusion. Asked and answered.
` A. Again, I think a -- what I have stated
`previously is that I did not run the code. However,
`based on my review of the code, I did not see any items
`or elements that would suggest otherwise.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Let me ask you this. Can
`you point me to somewhere in your declaration, Exhibit
`2080, where you offer an opinion regarding the
`reduction to practice?
` A. I don't offer an opinion on reduction to
`practice. You're asking me a question here. I'm
`trying to answer that question here.
` Q. Okay. That's fair.
` A. Again, I want to make sure that we understand
`the scope of my declaration. My declaration was to
`review the source code as it existed as of November
`1st, 2001, and November 15, of 2001, and determine
`whether the source code practiced the challenged claims
`of the two -- 791 and the 252 patents. But that is the
`scope of my declaration that we are reviewing right
`now.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 19 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 20
` Q. So you just said that your declaration was to
`review the source code as it existed as of November 1,
`2001, and November 2015, 2001, and determine whether
`the source code practiced the challenged claims. But I
`think you also just told me that you didn't run the
`source code.
` So you don't really know whether the source
`code practiced the challenged claims, do you?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Mischaracterizes
`testimony.
` A. I don't think that's what I said. In terms
`of determining whether source code practices a certain
`claim and limitation, you can analyze the source code
`to understand how the source code is implemented. And,
`based on that, you can establish whether the source
`code practices a claim limitation or not.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) But since you didn't run
`the source code, you can't really know if it works, can
`you?
` A. What do you mean by "it works"?
` Q. Well, I mean that the source code engages in
`the functionality that you say it engages in.
` A. But that's exactly what the source code
`review tells me. When I look at the source code, I
`review and analyze the functions within the source code
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 20 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 21
`and I see how instructions are used to implement those
`functions.
` I can very accurately determine how those
`instructions would operate as they are implemented
`within the source code. And that is what tells me
`whether those instructions, as they are implemented,
`would exercise or practice the challenged claims or any
`claim limitation or not.
` Q. So your testimony is that you can determine
`how the instructions would operate as they are
`implemented within the source code without having run
`the source code?
` A. My testimony is that by analyzing the source
`code, you can understand the functionality that is
`implemented by the source code.
` Q. But your testimony is that you can understand
`the functionality without having actually run the
`source code?
` A. That is right.
` Q. How do you know for certain that the source
`code could be compiled and run successfully?
` A. I don't see if I rendered that opinion in my
`declarations.
` Are you asking me to form an opinion here
`or...
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 21 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
` Q. No. I can rephrase, actually.
` How about I phrase it as, do you know for
`certain that the source code could be compiled and run
`successfully?
` A. I did not compile the code. I did not run
`the code. I don't have an opinion on that.
` What I stated before was that as I reviewed
`the source code, I saw that it was implemented in a
`manner where it was consistent with how I see source
`code implemented.
` Q. But, to be clear, you don't know whether the
`source code would run?
` MR. HURT: Objection.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Is that correct?
` MR. HURT: Mischaracterizes prior testimony.
` A. I think I mentioned that I did not run the
`code.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Yeah. Let me direct you to
`paragraph 31 of your declaration. And so the second
`sentence of that paragraph says, Based on my review,
`the Implicit Source Code implements the intended
`purpose to synchronize audio and video content in the
`manner I describe in this declaration and the
`accompanying claim charts.
` And my question is, when you said "intended
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 22 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
`purpose," what did you mean?
` A. The purpose to synchronize audio and video
`content.
` Q. So were you referring to the intended purpose
`of the source code or the intended purpose of the
`challenged claims?
` A. As I said, that the intended purpose is to
`synchronize audio and video content.
` Q. The intended purpose of what?
` A. The intended purpose as is implemented by the
`Implicit source code. My statement is "Implement
`source -- Implicit Source Code implements the intended
`purpose to synchronize audio and video content."
` Q. But what has that intended purpose?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Ambiguous.
` A. What has that intended purpose? The
`functionality implemented by the source code.
` Again, the declaration is in the light of the
`claims -- the patent. So the functionality is being
`reviewed within the scope of the patent. So it's
`something that is used to describe or understand how
`the claim limitations of the patent are practiced by
`the Implicit source code.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) How did you come to the
`conclusion that the intended purpose of the source code
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 23 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`was to synchronize audio and video content?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Lacks foundation.
` A. So I did my analysis and I've cited all of
`that analysis in my claim charts and summarized it in
`my declaration. That was the entire process by which I
`came to that conclusion.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) And to be clear, the
`intended purpose of the source code was to synchronize
`audio and video content on a master device to at least
`one slave device? Do I have that right?
` A. That is one of the examples, yeah, that I
`discussed in my claim charts.
` Q. Do the challenged claims have an intended
`purpose of synchronizing audio and video?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Calls for a legal
`conclusion. Outside the scope.
` A. Yeah. I don't fully comprehend that -- that
`question. Like, what do you mean by the intended
`purpose of the claims?
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) That's fair. Let me ask
`this. Do you have an opinion on what the intended
`purpose of the challenged claims is?
` A. Again, I'm having difficulty with
`understanding the question. Like, specifically, when
`you say intended purpose of the claim, my understanding
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 24 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 25
`is that a claim describes a certain aspect that is
`disclosed and then mentioned, which is being claimed.
`So I don't know what you mean by the intended purpose.
` Is the intended purpose what is being claimed
`in the claim limitation or something else?
` Q. Well, actually, let me ask it this way. Can
`you give me a brief overview of the subject matter of
`the challenged claims?
` MR. HURT: Calls for a legal conclusion.
` A. I can describe what I understand based on
`reviewing the packet specification of the claims. The
`patent describes a system that has the ability to
`describe a system which may consist of multiple devices
`which play -- which has -- and those devices have the
`ability to play multimedia audio or video or any other
`form in a manner where the -- the playing of the
`multimedia is synchronized between the devices.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Okay. And can you help me
`understand a little more specifically which playback on
`which devices is being synchronized?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Calls for a legal
`conclusion. Outside the scope of direct.
` A. As I understand, the invention -- one of the
`examples is a system having a master and a slave device
`where both the devices are playing some multimedia
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`800-642-1099
`
`David Feldman Worldwide
`A Veritext Company
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`
`Page 25 of 230
`
`SONOS EXHIBIT 1020
`IPR OF U.S. Pat. No. 8,942,252
`
`
`
`Page 26
`content and they are synchronizing. And that is
`synchronized between the master and the slave.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) Okay. And you said that
`was one of the examples. Are you aware of other
`examples?
` MR. HURT: Same objections.
` A. I'll have to go through the claim chart to --
`like, there's multiple examples on the claim chart. I
`gave you one.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) So then do the claims
`require at least one slave device?
` MR. HURT: Objection. Calls for a legal
`conclusion.
` A. I will have to read the claim to determine
`that.
` Q. (BY MR. RICHTER) So I'm going to hand you
`copies of the 791 and 252 patents. These are each
`labeled Exhibit 1001.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. So can I have you turn to Claim 1 of the 791
`patent and just have you read through that claim
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
