UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`-----------------------------------
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`-----------------------------------
`VIZIO, INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`NICHIA CORPORATION,
`Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------
`Case No. IPR2018-00437
`Patent 9,537,071
`DEPOSITION OF STANLEY R. SHANFIELD, Ph.D.
`East Palo Alto, California
`Wednesday, December 19, 2018
`1:01 p.m.
`
`Job No.: 221516
`Pages: 1 - 99
`Reported By: Charlotte Lacey, RPR, CSR No. 14224
`
`NICHIA EXHIBIT 2033
`Vizio, Inc. v. Nichia Corp.
`Case IPR2018-00437
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`-----------------------------------
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`-----------------------------------
`VIZIO, INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`NICHIA CORPORATION,
`Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------
`Case No. IPR2018-00437
`Patent 9,537,071
`DEPOSITION OF STANLEY R. SHANFIELD, Ph.D.
`East Palo Alto, California
`Wednesday, December 19, 2018
`1:01 p.m.
`
`Job No.: 221516
`Pages: 1 - 99
`Reported By: Charlotte Lacey, RPR, CSR No. 14224
`
`NICHIA EXHIBIT 2033
`Vizio, Inc. v. Nichia Corp.
`Case IPR2018-00437
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`2
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` DEPOSITION OF STANLEY R. SHANFIELD, Ph.D., held at
`the offices of ROPES & GRAY LLP, 1900 University Avenue,
`6th Floor, East Palo Alto, California
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Charlotte Lacey,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter, in and for the State of
`California.
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
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`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER VIZIO, INC.:
` GABRIELLE E. HIGGINS, ESQUIRE
` CHRISTOPHER M. BONNY, ESQUIRE
` JAMES F. MACK, ESQUIRE
` ROPES & GRAY LLP
` 1900 University Avenue, 6th Floor
` East Palo Alto, California 94303
` (650) 617-4000
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER NICHIA CORPORATION:
` MICHAEL H. JONES, ESQUIRE
` MARTIN M. ZOLTICK, ESQUIRE
` ROTHWELL, FIGG, ERNST & MANBECK, PC
` 607 14th Street, Northwest, Suite 800
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` (202) 7883-6040
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
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`4
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` I N D E X
` WITNESS PAGE
` STANLEY R. SHANFIELD, Ph.D.
` Examination by Mr. Jones 5
`
` I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S
` EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit S8 Copy of Exhibit 1030, U.S. Patent 72
` No. 6,770,498 B2
`Exhibit S9 Colored version of figure 12 from 76
` Exhibit 1030, U.S. Patent No.
` 6,770,498 B2
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`5
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` STANLEY R. SHANFIELD, Ph.D.,
`the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
`examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. JONES:
` Q Good afternoon, Dr. Shanfield.
` A Good afternoon.
` Q And you understand that you are still under
`oath?
` A Yes.
` Q And the instructions I gave you earlier
`regarding how a deposition works, those still apply.
`You understand?
` A Yes. Thanks.
` Q Okay. You have some documents in front of
`you?
` A Same ones as before, my -- the two patents,
`the '411, the '071, my recent declaration 1017, and my
`old declaration 1003.
` Q Okay. And those are unmarked?
` A Right.
` Q Okay. Just so we don't get confused, you can
`set the previous S exhibits we've used aside.
` Okay. If I refer to the fifth embodiment of
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`6
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`the '071 patent, will you understand what I'm referring
`to?
` A Yes.
` Q So if you could, please, turn to the
`description of the fifth embodiment in the '071 patent
`and read that for me.
` A Would you like me to read it out loud?
` Q No, just read it to yourself. I want you to
`familiarize yourself with it, 'cause we're going to be
`discussing the fifth embodiment for the next little
`while over my next series of questions.
` A Okay. All right.
` Q And can you, please, turn to column 3. At the
`top there, there's some descriptions of the figures. Do
`you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And figure 11 is a perspective view of an LED
`according to the fourth embodiment, and figure 12 is a
`perspective view of an LED according to the fifth
`embodiment, and figure 13 is perspective view
`illustrating a resin package according to a sixth
`embodiment. Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So -- so please turn to column 17,
`line 4 through 6. And I'm going to -- I'm going to read
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
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`7
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`that for the record. It says "In the outer side surface
`420b of the resin package 420, the leads 422 are
`separated into six. The leads 422 may be separated
`respectively, comma, or jointed."
` Did I read that correctly?
` A Yes, you did.
` Q Okay. So you would agree that the '071 patent
`describes two different arrangements for the fifth
`embodiment, one in which the leads are separated
`respectively and a second in which they are jointed,
`correct?
` A I think that that description is ambiguous.
` Q So do you -- okay. Do you disagree that the
`'071 describes two arrangements, one in which the leads
`are separated respectively and a second in which they
`are jointed?
` A I'm not clear on what it's describing. It
`says "the leads are separated into six. The leads may
`be separated respectively or jointed." It leaves a
`question in my mind exactly what that means.
` Q Okay. So that the record is clear, it says
`"at the outer side surface, the leads 422 are separated
`into six." And then it goes on to say that the leads
`422 may be separated respectively or jointed, correct?
` A Those are two separate sentences, yes. It
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`8
`
`says "In the outer side surface of the resin package,
`the leads 422 are separated into six." A separate
`sentence says "The leads 422 may be separated
`respectively or jointed."
` Q Do you know what that means?
` A I find it ambiguous, like I've explained.
` Q So if we look at figure 12 of the '071 patent,
`there's an illustration of an LED according to the fifth
`embodiment, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. In the configuration that's illustrated
`in figure 12, are the leads separated respectively, or
`are they jointed?
` A So as I've written on -- in paragraph 51 on
`page 33 of my dec, I'll -- I'll first mention that
`Dr. Schubert did not and does not cite this statement in
`his disclosure of element 27b. But did I find this
`statement from the applications ambiguous? The
`statement from the applications is ambiguous, in my
`opinion.
` So I guess, to the extent the patent owner or
`Dr. Schubert argues that jointed means the leads are
`connected, you would end up with an inoperable device.
`So that would be a good example of the ambiguity that
`I'm talking about. You'd end up shorting the device.
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`9
`
` If you're asking me now to take this ambiguous
`description and you're saying are the leads separated
`respectively or are they jointed, I've explained that
`that statement is ambiguous.
` The fact that it explains that it may be
`divided into six -- the outer side surface of the resin
`package, 420, the leads are separated into six, well, I
`see six structures -- surfaces, rather, in figure 12.
`So to that extent, I can count for -- six surfaces.
`Beyond that, the statement is ambiguous.
` Q Okay. Well, let me ask you about figure 12.
` Is the arrangement in figure 12 an arrangement
`in which the leads are separated respectively, an
`arrangement in which the leads are jointed, or some
`other arrangement?
` MS. HIGGINS: Objection; form.
` A Well, like I explained, to the extent the
`patent owner or -- wants to argue that jointed means the
`leads are connected to the third central metal structure
`or the X that's part of figure 12, since it's a
`three-metal structure device, the device would be
`inoperable. So I don't think that -- I mean, that would
`be jointed. If that's how it's interpreted, it would
`end up with an inoperable device.
` The specification discloses only that the
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`10
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`leads may be jointed at the outer side surface, the
`420d, instead of separated into six, and I can explain
`that further. But -- so if the devices were jointed at
`the outer side surface --
` Q Where does it say jointed --
` A -- there would not be resin on the left and
`right sides of the lead, and the device would fail to
`meet the requirements element 27h in the amended claims.
` Q Sorry. Maybe I'm confused.
` A So I don't -- the ambiguity in that -- that
`statement requires me to go through all the logical
`possibilities and --
` Q You said the patent states that the leads are
`jointed at the outer side surface.
` Where does it say that?
` A So if you would give me the '940 application
`that's 2023, I can show you. Or you can give me the
`Japanese '408 application. I will show you.
` Q I'll represent that the -- the text of the
`parent application in English is substantively the same
`as the text of the '071 patent.
` Can you tell me where in the '071 patent it
`states that the leads can be jointed, quote, at the
`outer side surface, 420b?
` A I'd rather go with the 2023 application, if
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`11
`
`that's all right with you.
` Q We'll see if I have it. We might have to
`stick with the patent itself.
` MR. JONES: Well, Gabby, we can take a break
`and print copies of 2023, or we can have him answer from
`the patent. It's the same to me. Or if you have
`copies, we can use that.
` MS. HIGGINS: Well, I have one here, and --
` MR. JONES: I can use it electronically if you
`have the paper.
` MS. HIGGINS: Yeah. I'm just -- I'm just
`making sure it's clean. Just give me a second.
` MR. JONES: Yeah.
` MR. ZOLTICK: What's the exhibit number?
` MR. JONES: 2023.
` MS. HIGGINS: So I'm going to hand the witness
`a clean copy of exhibit -- Exhibit 2023. Okay, Counsel?
` MR. JONES: Yep. Thank you.
` THE WITNESS: Do you want to look at it or --
` MR. JONES: No. I have an electronic copy
`here. Thank you.
` A So in paragraph 99 in Exhibit 2023 -- it's on
`page 37 -- it says about the middle of that paragraph,
`"In the outer side surface, 420b, of the resin package,
`420, the leads, 422, are separated into six."
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`12
`
` Q Okay.
` A So it's on the outer side surface.
` Q The leads are separated into six. Yes.
` A Then it says "The leads 422 may be separated
`respectively or jointed."
` And I interpret that as on the outer side
`surface, 420b.
` Q Okay. And you say that, if you interpret it
`that way, it renders the device inoperable?
` A I did not say that. I said I interpret the
`leads, 422, may be separated respectively or jointed.
`So if they're jointed, they're going to be jointed on
`the outer side surface, 420b, in this application.
` Q And, in your opinion, if they were jointed in
`the manner you're suggesting, they would be inoperable,
`right?
` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` A No. I was giving one example of jointing that
`would end up making it inoperable. Not all manner of
`jointing make the device inoperable. But all manner of
`jointing, as I've explained in my dec, will end up not
`meeting all the claim requirements of claim 27, the
`amended claim 27.
` Q So which joining arrangements would leave the
`device operable?
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`13
`
` A Well, for example -- and I've written this on
`page -- the top of page 54, paragraph 51. If the
`devices were jointed at the outer side surface, 420b,
`there would not be resin on the left and right sides of
`the lead, and the device would fail to meet the
`requirements of element 27h. It would still be
`operable, but it wouldn't meet this requirement 27h.
` Q So your testimony is that if the leads were
`jointed --
` A For example, if the front face -- and I have
`this explained in my paragraph. So let me read from it.
` If -- and this is now paragraph 53. If the
`front and rear metal structures were claimed, first and
`second metal leads, then the fifth embodiment would not
`meet the elements I have written here, 27e, 27f, 27g.
`But as far as the front and left -- front and rear
`structures being jointed, they could be. If the middle
`X-shaped structure were jointed with the front
`structure, then you'd have an operable device. But,
`again, it would not meet elements of the claim 27. So
`I've gone through -- I'll -- I'll actually read
`paragraph 54, where element 27e says "Wherein, at each
`of the four outer lateral surfaces of the resin package,
`at least a portion of the outer lateral surface of the
`resin part and at least a portion of the outer lateral
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`14
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`surface of one or more of the first and second metal
`leads are coplanar." So as shown in figure 12 above,
`the front and rear metal structures have exposed
`surfaces only on the front or rear outer lateral
`surfaces.
` So this combination of structure does not have
`any exposed surfaces on the left and right outer lateral
`surfaces of the resin package.
` So the front and rear metal structures are
`not -- have no portion of metal and are not coplanar
`with resin on two of the four outer lateral surfaces.
` So they're -- as I mentioned earlier, there is
`ways of jointing on the outer lateral surfaces to end up
`with a functional device, but it doesn't meet the claim
`requirement.
` Q Okay. So the way I understand it -- and
`correct me if I'm wrong -- is that there are different
`ways in which it could be jointed, some of which would
`render an operable device, some of which would render
`the device inoperable, correct?
` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` A Yes, and none of which would meet all the
`claim requirements of 27.
` Q Okay. And are any of those jointed
`arrangements shown in figure 12?
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`15
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` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` A No.
` Q Is the separated arrangement shown in
`figure 12?
` A As I said earlier, the statement from the
`applications -- in this particular application that I
`cite is ambiguous. So it's only as to the extent patent
`owner, you, want to argue that jointed means the leads
`are connected to a third structure or to another
`structure.
` And I can't interpret -- it's ambiguous in my
`mind as to what the explanation means other than
`initially it says "In the outer side surface, 420b, of
`the resin package, 420, the leads, 422, are separated
`into six."
` So I can see six surfaces, or I can interpret
`six surfaces in a symmetric package. So I think that's
`what it's -- is being referred to.
` But then, in the description of what jointed
`means, I have to speculate at -- or I have to take
`the -- or make the statement that the extent the patent
`owner argues what jointed means and from that decide
`whether it's operable or not operable.
` But in each case that I can think of that's
`consistent with the wording in the application, it --
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`16
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`none of them meet the claim requirements of claim 27.
` Q Okay. Where is -- so you agree that there's a
`single LED -- package LED shown in figure 12, right?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Where in the '071 patent is the lead
`frame that was used to manufacture the package LED shown
`in figure 12?
` A It's visible in figure 12. You can see it.
` Q The -- the lead frame?
` A Yes.
` Q So please turn --
` A I think I've illustrated actually --
` Q I think we have a terminology mixup. So it
`might make sense to clarify the terminology and then ask
`the questions. So --
` A Well, I -- I have a -- a magnified picture on
`page 26 at the bottom of figure 12, and I've indicated
`where the lead frame is as dark blue and light blue, and
`I've blown up figure 12 to show what's shown inside as
`the lead frame, and from that -- that diagram, I can see
`exactly what the lead frame looks like.
` Q Since this is a singulated device, aren't the
`dark blue objects leads, not lead frames?
` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` A Well, when I said "lead frame," I -- I meant
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`17
`
`the -- the resulting leads from the lead frame; so I can
`then extrapolate back to the lead frame. But what I
`mean is the leads are apparent.
` Q So --
` A And the design of the leads is apparent in
`figure 12.
` Q If I look at your picture at the bottom of
`page 34, there's light blue and dark blue. Do you see
`that?
` A Yes.
` Q The light blue part, those are leads, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And then --
` A And so is the dark blue.
` Q Okay. So the dark blue portion that the lead
`video -- the light-emitting element is mounted onto, are
`those leads, or is that a different structure?
` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` You can answer.
` A It's a lead.
` Q Okay. So where -- now is -- that that's -- so
`in your opinion that's a lead. Where is the
`pre-singulation lead frame shown?
` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` A It's shown in figure 12. I can see what it
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`Conducted on December 19, 2018
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`18
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`looks like, as would anybody of skill in the art. It's
`apparent from looking at this device. In fact, I try to
`make that clear and show a magnified version of it just
`to make it clear on the top of page 27, where you now
`see the X-shaped third structure of the metal part
`holding the die.
` So the die is sitting on one of three
`structures -- metal structures that form the metal part,
`and the corners of this magnified diagram that I show on
`the top of page 27, the corners are -- you can see one
`of the lines extending from this square plate that's
`holding the die, the LED die, out to those corners in
`each direction. That's a familiar structure for someone
`of skill in the art.
` There are many lead frame designs which result
`in this -- these leads looking like they are that look
`like that. And then the actual electrical connections
`are made with the bond wire coming off the LED die onto
`the front electrode. And you can see that's an
`electrode because you see the castellation in the
`electrode where you end up with better solder attachment
`when you mount this to a circuit board and -- and apply
`or -- a reflow, a solder reflow process. That's the
`typical kind of shape you'll make the electrode to make
`sure you have solid attachment.
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`EXHIBIT 2033 - IPR Page 18
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`19
`
` This is a symmetric device, and I believe your
`expert Dr. Schubert agreed with me that this is
`symmetric. Figure 12. And so the same structure is on
`the other side. And so that represents a positive and
`negative connections.
` You can see the wire bond on the rear coming
`up over the square, darker blue region that I described
`that the LED is -- chip is sitting on and making contact
`with the electrode. And that is the other connection to
`the LED chip. It comes to the castellated electrode on
`the other side, and that -- in the view of a person of
`skill in the art, it's going to be pretty clear that
`that's the structure. It's three metal structures
`making up the metal part in this.
` Q Okay. So please turn to column 3, line 36 to
`37. And I'm going to go ahead and just read that. And
`it says "Terms such as lead frame and resin-molded body
`are used in the stage prior to singulation."
` So when I ask you about lead frames, I'm using
`that understanding of a lead frame. That is a structure
`prior to singulation. Okay?
` MS. HIGGINS: Object to form.
` A These aren't definitions. These are providing
`context for the description that follows.
` Q Not --
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`20
`
` A So it says in this description terms such as
`"leads," "resin part," "resin package," they get used
`for the singulated light-emitting device. Terms such as
`"lead frame" and "resin-molded body" are used in the
`stage prior to singulation. So they're not defining
`these terms. They're giving a context in how they're
`used.
` Q Okay. I -- I guess --
` A And, by the way, I was asked about this
`question earlier, and my response was misrepresented in
`that I said these were not definitions, that these
`provided context. And apparently that didn't come
`across.
` Q I -- I think we've crossed wires a little bit,
`and that's fine. I'm not asking you to agree or not
`whether these are definitional. I want to ask you
`questions about lead frames pre singulation. And I want
`to know what term I can use so that my question and your
`answer are limited to the pre-singulation form. If I
`say pre-singulation lead frame, will that work?
` A The claims in this patent '071 are all for an
`individual device. And it's an apparatus claim,
`meaning -- and this has been explained to me by counsel.
`It's --
` MS. HIGGINS: I don't want you to get into
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`EXHIBIT 2033 - IPR Page 20
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`21
`
`anything that's been explained to counsel, other than
`something that is an instruction in your declaration.
`Okay?
` A All right. I understand an apparatus claim to
`mean it's a description of a device, and it doesn't talk
`about pre-singulation, post-singulation, wire bond,
`pre-wire bond, post-wire bond. And so in trying to talk
`about what's the manufacturing process for the device
`described in the '071, there is description of that
`kind, but the claims are talking about a device.
` Q Yes.
` A And don't go into any description of how
`they're manufactured. So I take them that way.
` Q Okay. I -- I understand there's a dispute
`between the parties regarding, for instance, the meaning
`of -- meaning of resin package and whether that connotes
`singulation or not.
` That's not what I'm asking you about, and I'm
`trying to think of a way to just give a term to the lead
`frame used in the manufacturing process before
`singulation. And I'm not talking about the meaning or
`"resin package" or the parties' dispute on that. I just
`want to ask you questions about the manufacturing
`process disclosed in the '071 patent and the lead frames
`that are used, the lead frames that are molded prior to
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`EXHIBIT 2033 - IPR Page 21
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`22
`
`singulation. I just want to know what term I can use so
`that we stay on the same page. So my proposal would be
`to use the term pre --
` A I'd use the terms you were just using.
` Q How about pre-singulation lead frame? Does
`that work? Used in the manufacturing process? And I'll
`take it one step further. I promise I won't link it to
`resin package.
` A Why not just keep the terminology that you
`started with earlier and not give it a name?
` Q Okay. So where is the pre-singulation lead
`frame used to manufacture the device of figure 12 shown
`in the patent?
` A In figure 12. Because a person of skill in
`the art examining this figure -- and I'm pointed to this
`close-up on the top of page 27 in my dec -- would
`understand the electrode structure here. And to the
`extent -- I mean, they would know then that there was
`three metal structures. How this piece of -- or how
`this metal part is designed. So I don't know what you
`want to -- how you want to name that, but it's clear to
`a person of skill in the art what this has shown.
` Q So your position, I think I understand, is
`that you can look at the leads of figure 12 and
`extrapolate from that what the lead frame looks like pre
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`EXHIBIT 2033 - IPR Page 22
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`23
`
`singulation; is that correct?
` A I'm talking about what I see in this package
`as described in the claims, and that -- the claims apply
`to this package and not to anything pre-singulation. So
`bringing in pre-singulation isn't what is relevant to
`the claims. The claims are talking about a device,
`here's a device, it's got three metal structures in it.
`And that's what anyone of skill in the art would see by
`looking at this; they'd be familiar with this structure.
` Q Okay. Let's see if we can get on the same
`page. Please turn to column 2, lines 53 to 54. And
`this is a description figure 3 which states, "Figure 3
`is a planned view illustrating a lead frame used in the
`first embodiment." Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q All right. And please look at figure 3.
` All right. And figure 3 shows a lead
`frame 21. Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And this lead frame is used to make
`one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
`ten, 11, 12 devices, correct?
` A Yes, that's what it looks like.
` Q All right. So that's the lead frame for
`embodiment 1, correct?
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`EXHIBIT 2033 - IPR Page 23
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`24
`
` A They're describing the manufacturing process.
`But when it comes to the claims, this is interesting,
`but it isn't --
` Q Yeah.
` A -- mentioned in the claim.
` Q I'm asking a different question. The -- the
`patent says that lead frame 21 shown in figure 3 is the
`lead frame for embodiment 1, right?
` A Yes.
` Q All right. And if we look at figure 7, that's
`the lead frame used to manufacture -- I'll just read it
`specifically. The column 2, line 62, it says "Figure 7
`is a plan view illustrating a lead frame used in the
`second embodiment." Do you see that?
` A That's correct. Yes.
` Q Okay. So if we look at figure 7, that's the
`lead frame for the second embodiment used to make one,
`two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,
`eleven, twelve devices, right?
` A Right.
` Q Okay. So we've got figure 3 is the lead frame
`for first embodiment, figure 7 is the lead frame for the
`second embodiment, right?
` A Yes.
` Q All right.
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`25
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` A What's your point?
` Q And so let's look at column 3, lines 1 to 2.
`It says that figure 10 is a planned view illustrating a
`lead frame used in the third embodiment. Do you see
`that?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And so if we look at figure 10, we see
`"lead frame 221." And that's used to manufacture 12
`devices according to the third embodiment, right?
` A Yes. That's what it looks like.
` Q Okay. So we've got three examples of first
`embodiment, second embodiment, and third embodiment of a
`full lead frame that is used to -- to develop -- I mean,
`to manufacture multiple devices, right?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Where is the lead frame shown in plan
`view for the fourth embodiment?
` A They're -- the lead frame, as you're talking
`about it, where it's designed in repeated fashion to
`produce multiple devices, that's not shown. I'll point
`out, though, because this is an apparatus claim, that
`how it's manufactured and -- and how that's described in
`the specification is of interest. But the claims,
`themselves, are apparatus claims, and they describe the
`device. The device has an electrode structure, a metal
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`Transcript of Stanley R. Shanfield, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 19, 2018
`
`26
`
`structure -- a set of metal structures. I can clearly
`see in figure 12 --
` Q I was asking about figure 11, the fourth
`embodiment?
` A All right. I can clearly see in figure 11
`what the electrode structure looks like. And someone of
`skill in the art looking at that figure 11 would
`understand what the electric structure looks like; and,
`therefore, it's clear how that applies to the claims,
`the device -- the apparatus claims that are -- that are
`laid out in '071.
` Q Okay. And I'll ask the same question with
`respect to the fifth embodiment. Where is the lead
`frame shown in plan view for the fifth embodiment?
` A So you're asking me to repeat what I just said
`about figure 11. And I will. There's no repeated
`manufacturing structure used to make multiples
`illustrated for figure 12 in the patent. But someone of
`skill in the art looking at this diagram, figure 12,
`would easily understand the electrode structure. And
`I've given some detailed explanation of that in my dec.
`And I've referred you to, for example, paragraph 45. At
`the end of the paragraph, I said "A POSITA" -- and this
`is paragraph 45, starting on page 25 -- "A POSITA would
`have understood, from the disclosures of the '940
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