In the Matter Of:
`
`vs
`
`PROMPTU SYSTEMS CORPORATION
`
`COMCAST CABLE COMMUNICATIONS, LLC
`
`court reporting solutions
`
`JOHN TINSMAN
`
`November 29, 2018
`
`pm
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, cover
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, cover
`
`
`
`vs
`
`PROMPTU SYSTEMS CORPORATION
`
`COMCAST CABLE COMMUNICATIONS, LLC
`
`court reporting solutions
`
`JOHN TINSMAN
`
`November 29, 2018
`
`pm
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, cover
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, cover
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · ---oOo---
`
`·4
`· · · · · · · ·COMCAST CABLE COMMUNICATIONS, LLC,
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · vs.
`·7
`· · · · · · · · · PROMPTU SYSTEMS CORPORATION,
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`·9· ·____________________________________________________
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2018-00340
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2018-00341
`11· · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2018-00344
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2018-00345
`12· · · · · · · · · · Patent No. 7,047,196
`· · · · · · · · · · · Patent No. 7,260,538
`13· ·____________________________________________________
`
`14
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`15
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION OF
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · · · JOHN TINSMAN
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`18· · · · · · · _________________________________
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`19· · · · · · · · ·THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 2018
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23· ·REPORTED BY:· HOLLY THUMAN, CSR No. 6834, RMR, CRR
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`24· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·(WDC-201116)
`
`25
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 1
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. DAY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·5
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
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`·6· · · · · · ·EXHIBITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
`
`·7· ·NO.· · · · · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·8· ·Exhibit 1· · · Declaration of John Tinsman,· · · · · · 6
`· · · · · · · · · · IPR2018-00340, PROMPTU Exhibit
`·9· · · · · · · · · 2033
`
`10· ·Exhibit 2· · · United States Patent 7,260,538,· · · · 19
`· · · · · · · · · · Calderone et al.
`11
`· · ·Exhibit 3· · · U.S. Patent 6,513,063, Julie et· · · · 33
`12· · · · · · · · · al.
`
`13· ·Exhibit 4· · · Plaintiff's Opening Claim· · · · · · · 37
`· · · · · · · · · · Construction Brief, Promptu
`14· · · · · · · · · Systems Corporation v. Comcast,
`· · · · · · · · · · United States District Court
`15
`· · ·Exhibit 5· · · U.S. Patent 7,013,283, Murdock· · · · ·47
`16· · · · · · · · · et al.
`
`17· ·Exhibit 6· · · Declaration of John Tinsman,· · · · · ·50
`· · · · · · · · · · IPR2018-00341, U.S. Patent
`18· · · · · · · · · Number 7,260,538
`
`19· ·Exhibit 7· · · U.S. Patent 5,774,859, Houser et· · · ·60
`· · · · · · · · · · al.
`20
`· · ·Exhibit 8· · · Excerpt from PC Magazine, June· · · · ·85
`21· · · · · · · · · 15, 1993, "Listen for Windows
`· · · · · · · · · · Lets Your PC Understand What You
`22· · · · · · · · · Say"
`
`23· ·Exhibit 9· · · Excerpt from Info World, June· · · · · 87
`· · · · · · · · · · 16, 1997, "IBM dictation
`24· · · · · · · · · software package gives computers
`· · · · · · · · · · a voice"
`25· ·(Cont'd)
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 2
`
`
`
`·1· ·(Exhibits, cont'd)
`
`·2· ·Exhibit 10· · ·Web printout from The New York· · · · ·89
`· · · · · · · · · · Times, "Technology: Market
`·3· · · · · · · · · Place; Dragon Systems, a Former
`· · · · · · · · · · Little Guy, Gets Ready for
`·4· · · · · · · · · Market," Diana B. Henriques,
`· · · · · · · · · · March 1, 1999
`·5
`· · ·Exhibit 11· · ·Web Printout, EE Times,· · · · · · · · 94
`·6· · · · · · · · · 8/5/2000, Nuance 7.0
`
`·7· ·Exhibit 12· · ·Declaration of John Tinsman,· · · · · ·97
`· · · · · · · · · · IPR2018-00344, U.S. Patent
`·8· · · · · · · · · Number 7,047,196
`
`·9· ·Exhibit 13· · ·U.S. Patent 6,345,389, Dureau· · · · ·107
`
`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
`
`·2· · · · Examination of JOHN TINSMAN, taken by the
`
`·3· ·Petitioner, at FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT &
`
`·4· ·DUNNER, LLP, 3300 Hillview Avenue, Palo Alto,
`
`·5· ·California 94304-1203, commencing at 9:30 A.M., on
`
`·6· ·THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 2018, before me, HOLLY THUMAN,
`
`·7· ·CSR, RMR, CRR.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·APPEARANCES
`
`10· ·FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
`11· · · · FARELLA, BRAUN & MARTEL
`· · · · · 235 Montgomery Street, 30th Floor
`12· · · · San Francisco, California· 94104
`· · · · · By:· JAMES L. DAY, Attorney at Law
`13· · · · · · ·JDay@fbm.com
`
`14· ·FOR THE PATENT OWNER, PROMPTU SYSTEMS CORP:
`
`15· · · · FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT & DUNNER,
`· · · · · LLP
`16· · · · 901 New York Avenue, NW
`· · · · · Washington, DC 20001-4413
`17· · · · By:· DANIEL F. KLODOWSKI, Attorney at Law
`· · · · · · · ·Daniel.Klodowski@finnegan.com
`18· · · · · · ·JOSHUA L. GOLDBERG, Attorney at Law
`· · · · · · · ·Joshua.Goldberg@finnegan.com
`19
`
`20· · · · FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT & DUNNER,
`· · · · · LLP
`21· · · · 3300 Hillview Avenue
`· · · · · Palo Alto, California 94304-1203
`22· · · · By:· JACOB A. SCHROEDER, Attorney at Law
`· · · · · · · ·Jacob.Schroeder@finnegan.com
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 4
`
`
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`·1· · ·PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 2018
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · 9:30 A.M.
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · JOHN TINSMAN,
`
`·5· · · · · · · _________________________________
`
`·6· ·called as a witness, who, having been first duly sworn,
`
`·7· ·was examined and testified as follows:
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · ---oOo---
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MR. DAY
`
`10· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`11· · · · Q.· Could you state your name, please?
`
`12· · · · A.· John Edward Tinsman.
`
`13· · · · · · MR. DAY:· And, I guess for the record,
`
`14· ·deposition notices were served in several different
`
`15· ·matters, and I'll read those into the record.
`
`16· · · · · · There's IPR2018-00340, -341, -344, -345.
`
`17· · · · Q.· Mr. Tinsman, can you tell me if you've ever
`
`18· ·had your deposition taken before?
`
`19· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`20· · · · Q.· And how long ago was that?
`
`21· · · · A.· 25 years?
`
`22· · · · Q.· What kind of dispute was that?
`
`23· · · · A.· It was a patent case.
`
`24· · · · Q.· And were you -- were you retained as an expert
`
`25· ·in that case?
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 5
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`
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`·1· · · · A.· No.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· You were a fact witness.· Is that right?
`
`·3· · · · A.· Yeah.· I was an employee at a company
`
`·4· ·involved.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· Okay.· Which -- who were you working for at
`
`·6· ·the time?
`
`·7· · · · A.· Radius.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· Okay.· Have you ever acted -- have you ever
`
`·9· ·been retained as an expert witness for a litigation
`
`10· ·before this matter?
`
`11· · · · A.· I'm involved in one other matter.· I couldn't
`
`12· ·tell you exactly what the date was, but yes.
`
`13· · · · Q.· Okay.· It's fairly recent.· Is that fair?
`
`14· · · · A.· Yes.· It's fairly recent.
`
`15· · · · Q.· And let me hand you your declaration.
`
`16· · · · · · For the record, what I'd like to do is, there
`
`17· ·are multiple different exhibits in the records for
`
`18· ·these IPRs to have the same exhibit number, and I think
`
`19· ·that may be confusing.· So what I'm going to do is ask
`
`20· ·the reporter to mark this as Exhibit 1 for the purposes
`
`21· ·of this deposition --
`
`22· · · · A.· Okay.
`
`23· · · · Q.· -- if that's okay with you.
`
`24· · · · A.· Yes, it's fine.
`
`25· · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked for
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 6
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · identification.)
`
`·2· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`·3· · · · Q.· Okay.· Mr. Tinsman, I've handed you your
`
`·4· ·declaration in the IPR that ends in the number 340.
`
`·5· ·Right?
`
`·6· · · · A.· Yes.· I see that.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· And this one relates to U.S. Patent 7,260,538.
`
`·8· ·Right?
`
`·9· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`10· · · · Q.· Okay.
`
`11· · · · A.· It says that.
`
`12· · · · Q.· And I'll show you more, but you prepared two
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`13· ·declarations related to the '538 patent.· Is that
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`14· ·right?
`
`15· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`16· · · · Q.· And then -- again, I'll show you these later,
`
`17· ·but there's another patent where you prepared two more
`
`18· ·declarations, the '196 patent.· Right?
`
`19· · · · A.· Yes.· That sounds right.
`
`20· · · · Q.· Total of four declarations.
`
`21· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`22· · · · Q.· Okay.· Now, had you -- before you signed those
`
`23· ·four declarations, had you ever signed an expert
`
`24· ·declaration before that?
`
`25· · · · A.· I believe I did.· Again, I don't remember the
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 7
`
`
`
`·1· ·exact date.· It was fairly recent, so --
`
`·2· · · · Q.· Okay.· So you've got another case ongoing.
`
`·3· ·You're not sure which one of the declarations got
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`·4· ·signed first.
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`·5· · · · A.· I think that's right.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· Can you -- what kind of case are you engaged
`
`·7· ·as an expert in other than this one?
`
`·8· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
`
`·9· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`10· · · · Q.· What's the other case about?
`
`11· · · · A.· It -- it's between two companies about patents
`
`12· ·related to, broadly speaking, audio.
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`13· · · · Q.· Okay.· Is it -- so it's a patent infringement
`
`14· ·lawsuit, or is it an IPR?
`
`15· · · · A.· It's an IPR.
`
`16· · · · Q.· An IPR.· Okay.
`
`17· · · · A.· Yeah.
`
`18· · · · Q.· And who's your client?
`
`19· · · · A.· Lectrosonics.
`
`20· · · · Q.· Who's the opposing party?
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`21· · · · A.· Zaxcom.
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`22· · · · Q.· Okay.· And are you on the patent-holder side
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`23· ·or the challenger side?
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`24· · · · A.· I am on the challenger side.
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`25· · · · Q.· And you recall that -- do you recall that you
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 8
`
`
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`·1· ·have signed a declaration in that matter?
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`·2· · · · A.· That's my recollection.
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`·3· · · · Q.· Okay.· Is it one or more than one?
`
`·4· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
`
`·5· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· You know, I -- with all of these
`
`·6· ·things flying around, I -- it was at least one.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`·8· · · · Q.· Okay.· Fair enough.
`
`·9· · · · · · So in front of you, you have one of the
`
`10· ·declarations you prepared in this matter.· Right?
`
`11· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`12· · · · Q.· How much time did you spend in connection with
`
`13· ·this declaration?
`
`14· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
`
`15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· When you mean time, what would
`
`16· ·you count in that?· What number are you asking for?
`
`17· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`18· · · · Q.· Okay.· I assume that you're being compensated
`
`19· ·for your time in connection with this matter.· Is that
`
`20· ·true?
`
`21· · · · A.· It is true.
`
`22· · · · Q.· Okay.· And you bill Promptu for your time in
`
`23· ·connection with this matter.· Right?
`
`24· · · · A.· I bill in connection with this matter, yes.
`
`25· · · · Q.· Okay.· And so what I'm wondering is, how many
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 9
`
`
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`·1· ·hours did you bill for in connection with this
`
`·2· ·declaration?
`
`·3· · · · A.· So all in, all the time I've ever billed to
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`·4· ·Promptu related to this declaration, or these
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`·5· ·declarations in general, or --
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`·6· · · · Q.· Well, can you answer with regard to one
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`·7· ·declaration or only with regard to all four?
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`·8· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
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`·9· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I couldn't -- it would be
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`10· ·with -- I could give you a number, kind of, for all
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`11· ·four.
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`12· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`13· · · · Q.· Okay.· How much time have you billed Promptu
`
`14· ·in connection with this matter -- let me just stop.
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`15· · · · · · How much have you billed so far for this
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`16· ·matter?
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`17· · · · A.· I think total hours spent on this set of
`
`18· ·matters --
`
`19· · · · Q.· Yeah.
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`20· · · · A.· -- you know, it's more than a hundred, but I
`
`21· ·think less than 150 hours.
`
`22· · · · Q.· Okay.· And then if we just focus in on the
`
`23· ·declarations you provided, can you give me statement of
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`24· ·how much time you had for those?
`
`25· · · · A.· Broadly speaking, just -- kind of the way I
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 10
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`
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`·1· ·think of it is there's the matter as a whole, and then
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`·2· ·there's sort of the time spent recently kind of
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`·3· ·preparing for our conversation today.
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`·4· · · · · · Is that an okay breakdown?· Does that answer
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`·5· ·your question?
`
`·6· · · · Q.· So I think it will.· So you said somewhere
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`·7· ·between 100 and 150 through today.
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`·8· · · · A.· Yeah.
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`·9· · · · Q.· What if you stop at the point where you signed
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`10· ·these declarations.· About how much time did you have
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`11· ·in at that point?
`
`12· · · · A.· Stop at -- boy, that would be difficult to
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`13· ·estimate.· I actually -- I don't remember.
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`14· · · · Q.· Have you -- okay.· How about this:
`
`15· · · · · · Can you give me an estimate how much time you
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`16· ·put in getting ready for your deposition today?
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`17· · · · A.· Oh, that's more recent.· That's easy to
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`18· ·remember.
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`19· · · · · · Sort of between 20 and 30 hours, of the order
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`20· ·of.· Yeah.
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`21· · · · Q.· Okay.· Let me ask you some questions that are
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`22· ·based on this declaration.
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`23· · · · · · So if you don't mind, take a look at
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`24· ·paragraph 1.
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`25· · · · A.· 1.· Okay.
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 11
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`·1· · · · Q.· Okay.· And I understand that you've been
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`·2· ·retained as an expert in several fields, but including
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`·3· ·cable television control technologies and voice
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`·4· ·recognition technologies.· Right?
`
`·5· · · · A.· Yes.· That's what it says in paragraph 1.
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`·6· · · · Q.· And so let me -- what do you mean by voice
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`·7· ·recognition technologies?
`
`·8· · · · A.· Broadly speaking, technologies related to
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`·9· ·processing and recognizing voice.
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`10· · · · Q.· So do you draw any distinction between voice
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`11· ·control technologies and voice recognition
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`12· ·technologies?
`
`13· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
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`14· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Do I draw the distinction
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`15· ·between voice recognition and voice control -- they're
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`16· ·related.· I -- I sort of organize my thoughts about
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`17· ·myself a little differently, since I spent a lot of
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`18· ·time on control systems in general.· There are control
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`19· ·systems, and there are the ways you communicated with
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`20· ·control systems.· Voice recognition is clearly one way
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`21· ·you can communicate with a control system.
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`22· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`23· · · · Q.· Okay.· Let me ask a little bit differently.
`
`24· · · · · · So one way to think of voice recognition would
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`25· ·be the algorithm that converts a spoken word to text or
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 12
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`·1· ·some other signal.· Is that fair?
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`·2· · · · A.· Sure.· You can -- if you want to go with that
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`·3· ·definition.
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`·4· · · · Q.· Okay.· Is that what you mean by -- when you
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`·5· ·say that you're an expert in voice recognition
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`·6· ·technologies?· Are you talking about the algorithms
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`·7· ·that actually perform that transformation?
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`·8· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
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`·9· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That -- that's part of it.· You
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`10· ·talked in this case about, you know, recognizing a
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`11· ·word.
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`12· · · · · · Voice recognition broadly can include many
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`13· ·nuances with respect to that.
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`14· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`15· · · · Q.· So have you -- well, let me do this.
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`16· · · · · · I think your experience with voice recognition
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`17· ·was primarily at Albert Incorporated?
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`18· · · · A.· Working with Albert, correct.
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`19· · · · Q.· Okay.· And in connection with that, did you
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`20· ·write an algorithm that converted voice to text?
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`21· · · · A.· I worked on an algorithm that recognized
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`22· ·essentially speech phonemes.· Right?· So the elements
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`23· ·of speech being processed, yeah.· And that's a
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`24· ·prerequisite in the actual recognition.
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`25· · · · Q.· So you worked on it.· Was it something that
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 13
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`·1· ·Albert Inc. had developed from the ground up, or was it
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`·2· ·some other technologies that they licensed?
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`·3· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
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`·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It was a ground-up effort to
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`·5· ·enable Albert to understand -- they had a -- a unique
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`·6· ·way of doing searches, and there was the hypothesis
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`·7· ·that the way that they were to break a query down to do
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`·8· ·a search might work well with speech recognition.
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`·9· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`10· · · · Q.· And so they started from blank slate and wrote
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`11· ·their own speech recognition software.· Is that the way
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`12· ·it went?
`
`13· · · · A.· That's part of what they did.· I mean, it was
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`14· ·a bigger question than -- in general, you would rather
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`15· ·use something off the shelf if you can, but -- yeah.
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`16· · · · Q.· But they could not.· Is that right?
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`17· · · · A.· They chose to explore off-the-shelf and
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`18· ·custom.
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`19· · · · Q.· Okay.· And what did they explore in the
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`20· ·off-the-shelf options?
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`21· · · · A.· I wasn't involved directly in the
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`22· ·off-the-shelf stuff, so I -- I know they looked at
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`23· ·commercially available packages.· I wasn't -- it wasn't
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`24· ·my bailiwick.
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`25· · · · Q.· Yeah.· Do you know which ones?
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 14
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`·1· · · · A.· You know, I can't -- I can't remember right
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`·2· ·off the bat.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· Okay.
`
`·4· · · · A.· They were well known, but I couldn't tell
`
`·5· ·you --
`
`·6· · · · Q.· Well, but the names are not coming to you now.
`
`·7· ·Is that right?
`
`·8· · · · A.· Not right off the bat, that's right.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· In paragraph 4, you mention that you've
`
`10· ·published some papers and presented at conferences.
`
`11· · · · · · Do you see what I'm referring to?
`
`12· · · · A.· This is the page marked 4 of 80, paragraph 4?
`
`13· · · · Q.· Paragraph 4, yeah, at the bottom.· "I have
`
`14· ·published a number of papers" --
`
`15· · · · A.· Yes, I see that.
`
`16· · · · Q.· Any of those papers related to voice
`
`17· ·recognition?
`
`18· · · · A.· No.
`
`19· · · · Q.· And have any of your presentations at
`
`20· ·professional conferences been focused on voice
`
`21· ·recognition?
`
`22· · · · A.· They have not.
`
`23· · · · Q.· Oh, a couple more questions on the work at
`
`24· ·Albert Inc.
`
`25· · · · · · It sounds like what you were working on was
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 15
`
`
`
`·1· ·software.· Is that fair?
`
`·2· · · · A.· I considered two problems.· Certainly
`
`·3· ·software, the front end and the phoneme parsing and
`
`·4· ·feeding into the high-level speech recognition.
`
`·5· · · · · · I also worried about basic issues.· Because it
`
`·6· ·was in an automotive environment, obviously, it's then
`
`·7· ·as now not good form to break out a keyboard and a
`
`·8· ·screen and start typing away while you're driving.
`
`·9· · · · · · And so one of the challenges in an automotive
`
`10· ·environment is how do you collect speech in a -- you
`
`11· ·know, as a garbage in, garbage out kind of thing.· If
`
`12· ·you have a really noisy signal coming in, whatever
`
`13· ·package you're using will not perform well.· So I
`
`14· ·worried about microphones and microphone placement
`
`15· ·also.
`
`16· · · · Q.· Was your focus on the front end and preparing
`
`17· ·information to feed to a voice recognition algorithm?
`
`18· · · · A.· No.· Well, certainly that's a lot of what I
`
`19· ·did.· I was working with some other people, and some of
`
`20· ·them spent more time on the high-level, the semantic
`
`21· ·processing.· But it was a research project, because I
`
`22· ·was looking at what the right place to put the boundary
`
`23· ·was, how much -- you know, where you do what and at
`
`24· ·what point can you feed it.
`
`25· · · · · · Like I said, Albert had a unique search
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 16
`
`
`
`·1· ·recognition algorithm, and so the question is what was
`
`·2· ·the right level of recognition.· You could certainly go
`
`·3· ·all the way to speech, but you might not have to.
`
`·4· · · · · · So we looked at those options.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· How long did you spend on this project for
`
`·6· ·Albert?
`
`·7· · · · A.· It was on the order of 14 months.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· And were you full time there during that
`
`·9· ·period?
`
`10· · · · A.· No.
`
`11· · · · Q.· Can you give me an estimate of about how much
`
`12· ·of your time over that 14-month period was at Albert as
`
`13· ·opposed to other clients?
`
`14· · · · A.· It was probably about half.· On average.· Over
`
`15· ·the -- yeah.
`
`16· · · · Q.· Okay.· Fair enough.
`
`17· · · · · · Okay.· If you'll jump ahead, paragraph 15, it
`
`18· ·starts on page 9 of 80 and goes to page 10 of 80.
`
`19· · · · A.· 9 of 80 to 10 of 80, paragraph 15, you said.
`
`20· · · · Q.· That's right.
`
`21· · · · A.· Okay.
`
`22· · · · Q.· Okay.· And in this paragraph, you talk about
`
`23· ·meeting with AgileTV in 2004.· Right?
`
`24· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`25· · · · Q.· Okay.· And if you look at the bottom of the
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 17
`
`
`
`·1· ·page, it says, "I met with Mr." -- sorry.· I'm going to
`
`·2· ·paraphrase.
`
`·3· · · · · · I met with Mr. Printz, and he explained both
`
`·4· ·their system architecture and a number of aspects of
`
`·5· ·their speech recognition system.
`
`·6· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·7· · · · A.· I do.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· And then you say he demonstrated a functional
`
`·9· ·system and included the -- that included the voice
`
`10· ·remote, set-top box, a local head end, and the Agile
`
`11· ·speech recognition platform.
`
`12· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`13· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to form.
`
`14· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`15· · · · Q.· Do you see the sentence I'm referring to?
`
`16· · · · A.· I do see the sentence, yes.
`
`17· · · · Q.· Okay.· What's a local head end?
`
`18· · · · A.· Because it was a test setup, they had created
`
`19· ·a set of equipment that for the purposes of
`
`20· ·demonstrating the speech behaved like a head end.
`
`21· · · · Q.· But it was in the same room, so it was local?
`
`22· ·The same building?
`
`23· · · · A.· It was certainly in the same building. I
`
`24· ·don't recall if it was literally in the same room.
`
`25· · · · Q.· So was this -- this was like a prototype?
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 18
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· It was a demonstration system.· I -- I don't
`
`·2· ·know how they would characterize it as -- yeah.· You'd
`
`·3· ·have to ask them.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· Okay.· Fair enough.
`
`·5· · · · · · So is it fair to say that system did not have
`
`·6· ·the head-end unit that's claimed or discussed in the
`
`·7· ·claims of the '538 patent.· Right?
`
`·8· · · · A.· That system -- so what that system had was
`
`·9· ·the -- sorry, I don't -- I don't think it's in this,
`
`10· ·but it had a set of servers that represented the Agile
`
`11· ·product offering.
`
`12· · · · Q.· Okay.· Let me -- I'll -- let me show you --
`
`13· ·let me just give you the '538 patent.· So we'll mark
`
`14· ·this as Exhibit 2.
`
`15· · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for
`
`16· · · · · · identification.)
`
`17· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`18· · · · Q.· If you go to -- for instance, go to Claim 1.
`
`19· ·Let me know when you're there.
`
`20· · · · A.· Yeah, just -- my fingers are -- sticky pages.
`
`21· · · · · · Okay.· I'm there.
`
`22· · · · Q.· Are you there?
`
`23· · · · A.· Yeah.
`
`24· · · · Q.· Okay.· And, I mean, take your time if you want
`
`25· ·to look over Claim 1.· But what I want to focus you in
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 19
`
`
`
`·1· ·on is the element that starts "Said cable set-top box."
`
`·2· · · · · · Do you see what I'm referring to?
`
`·3· · · · A.· That -- is there a particular -- I'm sorry,
`
`·4· ·line number?
`
`·5· · · · Q.· It's 31.· Column 9, line 31.
`
`·6· · · · A.· So it says -- oh, I see.· So there's a part --
`
`·7· ·a line that ends "set-top box;" and then you're talking
`
`·8· ·about the thing that comes immediately after that?
`
`·9· ·"Said cable set-top box."· Okay.· I'm there.
`
`10· · · · Q.· And you'll see it refers to a set-top box that
`
`11· ·transmits a signal via the cable television link, and
`
`12· ·then I'll quote, "to a remotely located head-end unit."
`
`13· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`14· · · · A.· Yes, I see this.
`
`15· · · · Q.· And I think in your declaration you note that
`
`16· ·the claims recite a remotely located head-end unit.· Do
`
`17· ·you recall that?
`
`18· · · · A.· I'd have to double-check, but it rings a bell.
`
`19· · · · Q.· Fair enough.· And so my question is, when you
`
`20· ·saw this system with a local head-end at AgileTV, that
`
`21· ·would not satisfy Claim 1 of the '538 patent.· Right?
`
`22· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Object to scope.
`
`23· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`24· · · · Q.· It didn't have a remotely located head-end
`
`25· ·unit, did it?
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 20
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· When you say "remotely," what do you mean?
`
`·2· · · · Q.· Okay.· Fair question.
`
`·3· · · · · · I would like you to use whatever your
`
`·4· ·understanding of Claim 1 is in answering my question.
`
`·5· ·So when you saw -- when you were -- sorry.· Let me
`
`·6· ·start over.
`
`·7· · · · · · Is that fair?· Can you use your understanding
`
`·8· ·of the claim language to answer the question?
`
`·9· · · · A.· So to be clear, as part of this exercise I
`
`10· ·wasn't asked to construe precisely the claims in the
`
`11· ·patent.
`
`12· · · · Q.· Okay.
`
`13· · · · A.· Right?· So it sounds like you're asking me to
`
`14· ·do that, and that's not something that I did for the
`
`15· ·purposes of my declaration.
`
`16· · · · Q.· Okay.· Then try to answer the question; and if
`
`17· ·you just can't, tell me you just can't.
`
`18· · · · · · Did the AgileTV demo system that you saw have
`
`19· ·a remotely located -- remotely located head-end unit,
`
`20· ·as recited in Claim 1 of the '538 patent?
`
`21· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Objection.· Scope.· Form.
`
`22· · · · · · MR. DAY:· And what's the scope objection?
`
`23· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· He didn't offer an opinion on
`
`24· ·whether that prototype was covered by the claims.
`
`25· · · · · · MR. DAY:· Okay.· I understand.
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 21
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· If you can answer, please do.
`
`·2· · · · A.· So the purpose of my visit -- I'll try to
`
`·3· ·answer completely -- was AgileTV had a product suite
`
`·4· ·that they were offering, as I explained there.· And my
`
`·5· ·boss at the time said, "Please go see them."
`
`·6· · · · · · It's clearly impractical to, you know,
`
`·7· ·recreate an entire set of a hundred thousand
`
`·8· ·subscribers or whatever, so you would set up a system
`
`·9· ·with all of the functional units in a setting which
`
`10· ·reasonably simulated what it would be like in the real
`
`11· ·world.· For practical reasons, things might not be a
`
`12· ·wide distance apart.· Like I said, the head-end could
`
`13· ·have been in the next room.· I actually don't
`
`14· ·remember -- it was a typical Silicon Valley industrial
`
`15· ·building.
`
`16· · · · · · So the purpose of the visit and the
`
`17· ·demonstration was for me to see its behavior.· It
`
`18· ·appeared to implement what their product claimed to
`
`19· ·implement, yeah, and work the way they claimed.
`
`20· · · · · · And I use the word "claim" in the sense of
`
`21· ·marketing, not in the sense of patents.
`
`22· · · · Q.· I appreciate that clarification.· That word
`
`23· ·can be confusing sometimes in these cases.
`
`24· · · · · · Let me try this: If you go -- focusing back on
`
`25· ·Exhibit 1, your declaration, if you go to page 20 of
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 22
`
`
`
`·1· ·80, I'm going to focus you on paragraph 35.
`
`·2· · · · A.· 20 of 80.· Paragraph 35.· Okay.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· And first, just to follow-up on something you
`
`·4· ·said earlier, did you -- in forming your opinions
`
`·5· ·expressed in this declaration, did you attempt to
`
`·6· ·construe the phrase "head-end unit"?
`
`·7· · · · A.· No.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· Okay.· And now, if you'll look at
`
`·9· ·paragraph 35, it says -- and I'll paraphrase -- the --
`
`10· ·a number of the claims recited head-end unit and then,
`
`11· ·quote, "located remotely from a cable set-top box
`
`12· ·(Claims 1 and 19) or television controller (Claims 2
`
`13· ·and 18)," et cetera.
`
`14· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`15· · · · A.· Yes.· You're talking about sort of the second
`
`16· ·and third lines of paragraph 35?
`
`17· · · · Q.· Yeah.
`
`18· · · · A.· Okay.
`
`19· · · · Q.· And so, I mean, in your declaration, you noted
`
`20· ·that the head-end unit is located remotely from the
`
`21· ·set-top box or controller.· Right?
`
`22· · · · A.· I repeated what the claim language is, yes.
`
`23· · · · Q.· Okay.· But you weren't trying to figure out
`
`24· ·what that language meant.· Is that true?
`
`25· · · · A.· I was not trying to precisely construe those
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 23
`
`
`
`·1· ·terms, that's correct.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· Did you have some understanding of what
`
`·3· ·"head-end" meant?
`
`·4· · · · A.· Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· What was that?
`
`·6· · · · A.· Broadly speaking, and again without attempting
`
`·7· ·to construe what a head-end is, but just speaking as an
`
`·8· ·engineer and someone familiar with systems, a head-end
`
`·9· ·is a -- typically a place -- as an example, a place
`
`10· ·where a cable system might get all of their
`
`11· ·contribution feeds, networks and so on, where they're
`
`12· ·assembled to create the final television signals
`
`13· ·delivered to households.
`
`14· · · · Q.· And did you have some -- strike that.· I'll
`
`15· ·just move on.
`
`16· · · · · · Let me ask this question one more time.· And
`
`17· ·again, if you can't answer it, just tell me you can't
`
`18· ·answer it.· But this question relates to the
`
`19· ·demonstration of the AgileTV system that you saw in
`
`20· ·2004.· Okay?
`
`21· · · · A.· Okay.
`
`22· · · · Q.· And was the local head-end unit in that
`
`23· ·demonstration system a remotely located head-end unit
`
`24· ·as required in Claim 1 of the '538 patent?
`
`25· · · · · · MR. KLODOWSKI:· Objection.· Scope.
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Again, it would depend on the
`
`·2· ·meaning of the word "remotely" in this case.· The goal
`
`·3· ·of my visit was to see if they had the functional
`
`·4· ·components, and did they appear to exercise and do what
`
`·5· ·they claimed to be able to do commercially, because
`
`·6· ·OpenTV was considering partnering with them.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. DAY:
`
`·8· · · · Q.· And did that head-end unit receive feeds from
`
`·9· ·content providers?
`
`10· · · · A.· There were -- there was some content being
`
`11· ·received and displayed.· Otherwise, it's a very boring
`
`12· ·demonstration.
`
`13· · · · · · I -- I don't know where those feeds were
`
`14· ·coming from.· There are a variety of technical ways,
`
`15· ·and you see it at trade shows all the time, where you
`
`16· ·can demonstrate your products and their functionality
`
`17· ·without necessarily subscribing to a cable provider.
`
`18· · · · Q.· So --
`
`19· · · · A.· So I don't know the answer to your question,
`
`20· ·whether they -- you know, exactly how the content they
`
`21· ·were displaying was sourced.
`
`22· · · · Q.· Okay.· We can agree that that local head-end
`
`23· ·was not located at a head-end provided by some
`
`24· ·commercial cable system.· Right?
`
`25· · · · A.· I -- you've characterized it at local.· It was
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 25
`
`
`
`·1· ·just a head-end.· But it was not a commercial -- it was
`
`·2· ·not -- there were not -- as far as I know, you know,
`
`·3· ·someone hooked in with one of the local commercial
`
`·4· ·providers for the purposes of the demo.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· Okay.· Well, you refer to it as a local
`
`·6· ·head-end, and so I'm just trying to make sure I
`
`·7· ·understand what you meant by that.
`
`·8· · · · · · But you're comfortable calling it a head-end.
`
`·9· ·Right?
`
`10· · · · A.· It was sufficient for the purposes of
`
`11· ·demonstrating the functionality of Agile's equipment.
`
`12· · · · Q.· All right.· Now, let's go back to
`
`13· ·paragraph 15, where you were discussing your visit to
`
`14· ·AgileTV.
`
`15· · · · A.· You said 15?
`
`16· · · · Q.· Yeah.· And it's in the second half of the
`
`17· ·paragraph, which is on page 10 of 80.
`
`18· · · · A.· Okay.· Great.· I was going to ask you which
`
`19· ·page we were talking about.· So page 10 of 80,
`
`20· ·paragraph 15.· Okay.
`
`21· · · · Q.· And the third line down, you say:
`
`22· · · · · · "Adding speech recognition capabilities to
`
`23· · · · existing set-top box applications, such as a
`
`24· · · · program guide, required careful thought and
`
`25· · · · integration."
`
`Comcast - Exhibit 1026, page 26
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·2· · · · A.· I do see that.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· And so you didn't work on the AgileTV system
`
`·4· ·personally, did you?
`
`·5· · · · A.· I did not.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· And so that sentence I just read, are you
`
`·7· ·reporting what Mr. Printz told you?
`
`·8· · · · A.· I don't recall if Mr. Printz made that
`
`·9· ·assertion.· That is an observation of mine, basically.
`
`10· · · · Q.· What's the observation based on?
`
`11· · · · A.· It's based on my experience.
`
`12· · · · Q.· Do you have any experience adding recognition
`
`13· ·capabilities to existing set-top box applications?
`
`14· · · · A.· At the time of the visit, I had a lot of
`
`15· ·experience with middleware and with set-top box
`
`16· ·applications and generally the effort required to
`
`17· ·integrate really anything new into them.· Even a new
`
`18· ·remote is certainly part of the effort.
`
`19· · · · Q.· So based on your experience, you imagine it
`
`20· ·would be -- it would require careful thought and --
`
`21· ·sorry.· Let me ask it a different way.
`
`22· · · · · · Based on
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