UNITED STATES PATENT TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ---oOo---
`
`Page 1
`
`FLATWING PHARMACEUTICALS, LLC
`and MYLAN PHARMACEUTICALS, INC.,
` Petitioner.
`
`vs.
`ANACOR PHARMACEUTICALS,
` Patent Owner.
`_________________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF, STEPHEN KAHL, Ph.D.
` PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
` TUESDAY, DECEMBER 8, 2019
`
`BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO, CSR, RPR, CRR, CCRR, CLR ~
` CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
` JOB NO. 153635
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ---oOo---
`
`Page 1
`
`FLATWING PHARMACEUTICALS, LLC
`and MYLAN PHARMACEUTICALS, INC.,
` Petitioner.
`
`vs.
`ANACOR PHARMACEUTICALS,
` Patent Owner.
`_________________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF, STEPHEN KAHL, Ph.D.
` PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
` TUESDAY, DECEMBER 8, 2019
`
`BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO, CSR, RPR, CRR, CCRR, CLR ~
` CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
` JOB NO. 153635
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ---oOo---
`
`Page 2
`
`FLATWING PHARMACEUTICALS, LLC
`and MYLAN PHARMACEUTICALS, INC.,
`
` Petitioner.
`
`vs.
`
`ANACOR PHARMACEUTICALS,
`
` Patent Owner.
`_________________________________/
`
` Deposition of Stephen Kahl, Ph.D., taken on
` behalf of the Patent Owner, on Tuesday, January 8,
` 2019, at WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI,
` 650 Page Mill Road, Palo Alto, California,
` beginning at 9:34 a.m., and ending at 11:28 a.m.,
` Pursuant to Notice, and before me,
` ANDREA M. IGNACIO, CSR, RPR, CRR, CLR ~ License
` No. 9830.
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`Page 3
`
` FOR PETITIONER:
` HUSCH BLACKWELL
` By: PHILIP SEGREST, JR., Esq.
` 120 South Riverside Plaza
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
`
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` WILLIAMS & CONNOLLY
` By: ANTHONY SHEH, Esq.
` 725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
` WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
` By: JAD WILLIAMS, Esq.
` 701 Fifth Avenue
` Seattle, Washington 98104
`
` ---oOo---
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
` PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
` TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2019
` 9:34 A.M.
`
`Page 4
`
` STEPHEN KAHL, Ph.D.,
` having been sworn as a witness
` by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. SHEH:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Kahl. Could you please
`state your full name for the record.
` A Good morning. My full name is Stephen Bruce
`Kahl.
` Q And could you please state your home address.
` A My home address is --
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; relevance.
` THE WITNESS: Pardon?
` MR. SEGREST: I said objection; relevance.
` THE WITNESS: Oh.
` MR. SEGREST: But you can answer.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry. I didn't hear.
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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`Page 5
` 1 Lerida Court, Portola Valley, California.
` MR. SHEH: Q. My name is Tony Sheh. I'm here
`on behalf of the patent owner, Anacor Pharmaceuticals,
`Inc. With me today is Aaron Maurer, also representing
`Anacor. We're from Williams & Connolly.
` Is it your understanding that you're appearing
`today as an expert witness on behalf of petitioner
`FlatWing Pharmaceuticals?
` A Correct.
` Q And is it your understanding that you're
`appearing as an expert witness in four matters pending
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. All right.
` (Document marked Exhibit 1047
` for identification.)
` MR. SHEH: Showing you what's been marked as
`Exhibit 1047.
` Q Dr. Kahl, do you recognize Exhibit 1047?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q What is Exhibit 1047?
` A This is my direct declaration in support of
`petitioner's reply to the patent owner's response.
` Q And you filed this reply declaration in four
`cases; is that right?
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
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` A I did.
` Q Okay. Are those cases IPR 2018-00168,
`IPR 2018-00169, IPR 2018-00170, and IPR 2018-00171?
` A Yes.
` Q And these four cases relate to U.S. Patent
`Nos. 9,549,938, 9,566,289, 9,566,290, and 9,572,823; is
`that correct?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; compound.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, to my -- to
`my view.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` Q And will you understand if I use the last
`three digits of the patents to refer to them?
` A Of the patent numbers or the --
` Q Yes.
` A -- case numbers?
` Q The patent numbers --
` A Yes.
` Q -- to refer to the patents.
` A (Witness nods head.)
` (Exhibits 1001-1, 1001-2, 1001-3, and
` 1001-4 introduced to the witness
` for identification.)
` MR. SHEH: Okay. Showing what's been marked
`as Exhibit 1001-1, 1001-2, 1001-3, and 1001-4.
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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`Page 7
` And Counsel, you already have copies in front
`of you.
` MR. SEGREST: Thank you.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Dr. Kahl, are these four
`exhibits the Patents-at-Issue in the IPRs?
` A Yes, they appear to be.
` Q Okay. Do you recall being previously deposed
`in this case in connection with the four matters I just
`mentioned?
` A Yes.
` Q Was that deposition in August of 2018?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you review the transcript of your prior
`deposition?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Did you review your transcript in
`connection with preparing your reply declaration?
` A Yes.
` Q My questions today are going to presume that
`you're familiar with the general nature of your previous
`deposition, but please let me know if you don't
`understand a question. Otherwise, I'll presume that you
`understand; is that okay?
` A That's okay.
` Q Okay. Are you aware that another petitioner,
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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`Page 8
`
`Mylan Pharmaceuticals, Inc., has joined these
`proceedings since your last deposition?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q Okay. Have you been retained by Mylan?
` A No.
` Q Were you also an expert witness on behalf of
`petitioners in the three previous petitions for
`inter partes review brought by the Coalition for
`Affordable Drugs on related patents?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection. Objection; asked and
`answered.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` Q Do you recall those case numbers?
` A I do not.
` Q Okay. Do you recall the patent numbers?
` A I do not.
` Q Okay. Looking to your reply declaration
`that's Exhibit 1047, when was the last time you reviewed
`your reply declaration?
` A Last night.
` Q How long did you spend drafting your reply
`declaration?
` A I don't recall.
` Q Could you ballpark it?
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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`
` 100 hours?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; relevance.
` THE WITNESS: No, not 100 hours.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Could it be 50 hours?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Not 50 hours.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Less than 30 hours?
` A Probably.
` Q What materials did you review in preparing
`your reply declaration?
` A My original declaration, Dr. Reider's
`declaration, his deposition, Dr. Lane's deposition. I'm
`sorry. I'm not sure if it was a deposition or a
`declaration. I think it was a declaration -- several
`declarations.
` Primarily those.
` Q Okay. Did you review both Dr. Reider's
`declarations and his deposition?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Did you review both Dr. Lane's
`declarations and her deposition?
` A Not for the -- not for the reply.
` Q What did you review Dr. Lane's declaration
`for --
` A I -- no. I'm sorry.
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
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` Q -- declarations for?
` A I reviewed Dr. Lane's declarations. Again, I
`can't remember whether they were depositions or
`declarations. I believe they were declarations --
`before I prepared this, and I reviewed Reider's
`declarations before I did this.
` Q Did you review declarations by Dr. Narasimha
`Murthy?
` A Not before preparing this.
` Q So in preparing your reply declaration, you
`reviewed --
` A I did not --
` Q -- Doctor -- sorry. It's going to work better
`if we talk one by one. I'll finish my questions, you'll
`finish your answers, and we'll try not to talk over each
`other. That way, the transcript is clear.
` So in preparing your reply declaration, did
`you review declarations by Dr. Narasimha Murthy?
` A I do -- I don't believe so.
` Q Did you review the patent owner's responses
`that were filed in these four IPRs?
` A Yes, I believe I did.
` Q Okay. Did you review the patent owner's
`exhibits that were filed in connection with the patent
`owner's responses?
`
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`Page 10
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
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`Page 11
` A Not for this reply. I have reviewed them all
`before my deposition in August. Replies that were filed
`after that time, if there were replies, I would have
`reviewed those as well.
` Q When do you understand the patent owners to
`have -- the patent owner Anacor to have filed its patent
`owner's response?
` A I don't know an exact time. I know that, when
`I received copies of those from counsel, I reviewed
`them.
` Q When did you receive the patent owner
`responses filed by Anacor?
` A I can't recall.
` Q Was it in September or after?
` A I said I can't recall.
` Q But you recall reviewing those responses?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; asked and answered.
`Objection; relevance.
` THE WITNESS: I recall reviewing those
`responses at the appropriate times when I got them, yes.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Did you also review the patent
`owner's exhibits?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: I believe I reviewed the patent
`owner's exhibits prior to my deposition in August.
`
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`Page 11
`
`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
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`Page 12
` MR. SHEH: Q. Did you review those exhibits
`in connection with preparing your reply declaration in
`this case?
` A I did not review them again after my initial
`reviews prior to my August deposition.
` Q So after August 2018, you do not recall
`reviewing any exhibits filed by Anacor in these matters?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; relevance.
` THE WITNESS: I may have. I simply don't at
`this date recall.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Could you describe how you
`prepared for today's deposition.
` MR. SEGREST: Objection.
` And caution the witness that you can talk
`about who you met with, but not the specifics of any
`discussions that were with me.
` But you can answer it, to the extent you have
`one.
` THE WITNESS: I met with counsel and went over
`the relevant documents, particularly my declaration --
`my reply declaration.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Did you meet with counsel for
`Mylan?
` A Counsel for Mylan was in the room.
` Q How long were your meetings with counsel?
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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` MR. SEGREST: Objection; assumes facts not in
`evidence.
` THE WITNESS: Approximately six hours.
` MR. SHEH: Q. You said that you primarily
`reviewed your reply declaration; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q Are there any other materials that you
`reviewed?
` A I believe that I reviewed portions of
`Dr. Murthy's reply.
` Q Did you review any materials not cited in your
`reply declaration?
` A I don't believe so.
` (Exhibit 1004 introduced to the witness
` for identification.)
` MR. SHEH: Showing what's been marked as
`Exhibit 1004.
` Q Dr. Kahl, are you familiar with Exhibit 1004?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q What is Exhibit 1004?
` A This is my curriculum vitae for the University
`of California San Francisco.
` Q We previously reviewed this CV in your prior
`deposition; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
`
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`Page 13
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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` Q Since your deposition in 28 -- in August 2018,
`have there been any updates?
` A Well, it does not list my teaching and service
`activities for the current academic year, which would be
`similar to 2017-'18, which are listed.
` It does not list the fact that, in 2018, I
`received another Dean's Recognition for Excellence in
`Teaching.
` I believe that is all that I would add at the
`current -- for the current date.
` Q Dr. Kahl, have any of your publications or
`patents listed in your CV concerned transungual drug
`delivery?
` A No.
` Q Have any parts of your education or training
`focused on the human nail or transungual drug delivery?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever developed any drug products for
`transungual drug delivery?
` A No.
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope and relevance.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Have any of your patents --
`sorry.
` Have any of your publications or patents
`concerned the keratin composition of the human nail, or
`
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`Page 14
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
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`Page 15
`
`the water composition of the human nail?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope and relevance.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Has any of your work experience
`or education addressed the topical treatment of
`onychomycosis?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope and relevance.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Would you call yourself an
`expert on the human nail?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope and relevance.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Would you call yourself an
`expert on transungual drug delivery systems?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` (Exhibit 1008 introduced to the witness
` for identification.)
` MR. SHEH: Showing what's been marked as
`Exhibit 1008.
` MR. SEGREST: Thank you.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Dr. Kahl, are you familiar with
`Exhibit 1008?
` A Yes.
` Q Is Exhibit 1008 the Brehove reference that's
`
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`Page 15
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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`
`been cited by FlatWing?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q Did you review Brehove in preparing for your
`deposition today?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you review Brehove in preparing your reply
`declaration?
` A Yes.
` Q Can I draw your attention to paragraph 19 of
`Brehove. And really, I'm going to be talking about
`paragraphs 19 through 22.
` Do you see where I am?
` A Uh-huh.
` Q Okay. Do you agree that the general formula
`or formulae in these paragraphs 19 through 22 do not
`encompass tavaborole?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope and relevance.
` THE WITNESS: I agree that tavaborole is not
`disclosed in Brehove.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` Q So then, looking at paragraphs 30 to 33 of
`Brehove, would you agree that compounds in these
`paragraphs are not tavaborole?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope and relevance.
` Is this in his reply declaration?
`
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`Page 16
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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` MR. SHEH: Please excuse the witness.
` Could you please excuse the witness.
` MR. SEGREST: Sure.
` Jad, could you take him out in the hall for a
`minute.
` (Witness exits the room.)
` MR. SHEH: Philip, do you have a copy of his
`reply declarations with you?
` MR. SEGREST: Yeah.
` MR. SHEH: This line of questioning is in
`response to paragraphs 4 through 6.
` MR. SEGREST: Okay. I see Brehove mentioned
`in paragraph 6.
` I'll continue to make the objections for the
`record, but --
` MR. SHEH: Sure.
` MR. SEGREST: -- if you make it up, that's
`fine.
` MR. SHEH: Okay. Thank you.
` Retrieve the witness. Thank you.
` (Witness enters the room.)
` MR. SHEH: Apologies for that brief
`interruption.
` THE WITNESS: No problem.
` MR. SHEH: All right.
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
`
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` Q So the question, just before we broke, was:
`Looking at paragraphs 30 to 33 of Brehove, would you
`agree that the compounds in these paragraphs are not
`tavaborole?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objections, and objection;
`compound.
` But you can answer.
` THE WITNESS: Pardon?
` MR. SEGREST: I said objection; compound.
` But you can answer.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
` No, I do not see tavaborole in any of these.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Would you agree that the
`description in paragraphs 30 to 33 describe in vitro
`tests involving incubation of Candida albicans on agar
`plates in the presence of Brehove's active compounds?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
` MR. SHEH: Q. And in paragraphs 34 to 38 of
`Brehove, do the compounds described in paragraphs 34 to
`38 describe tavaborole?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: No, they do not appear to
`contain tavaborole.
`///
`
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`Page 18
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
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`
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`Page 19
` (Exhibit 2013-1 introduced to the witness
` for identification.)
` MR. SHEH: Showing what's been marked as
`Exhibit 2013-1.
` Q Dr. Kahl, are you familiar with
`Exhibit 2013-1?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q Okay. What is Exhibit 2013-1?
` A This appears to be the declaration of Paul
`Reider in support of the patent owner's response.
` Q This declaration is for IPR 2018-00168; is
`that correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And it concerns the '938 patent; is that
`right?
` A Yes, it does.
` Q Okay. And is it your understanding that
`Dr. Reider has filed three other declarations in this
`case, or in these matters?
` A I believe so. I'm not sure of the exact
`number that he's filed.
` Q Did you review Exhibit 2013-1 in preparing
`your reply declaration?
` A I did.
` Q Okay. Could you turn to page 12 of
`
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`Page 19
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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`Page 20
`Exhibit 2013-1. There's a chemical structure shown
`underneath paragraph 37.
` A (Witness complies.)
` In paragraph 37, yes.
` Q Would you agree that the compound shown on the
`left side of the chemical equation is one of the
`compounds -- one of the two compounds disclosed in
`Brehove?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And this compound is not tavaborole; is
`that right?
` A That's correct.
` Q Could you turn to pages 28 -- page 28 of
`Exhibit 2013-1. I'm looking at paragraphs 66 to 67.
` A (Witness complies.)
` Q Do you agree that the active ingredient of
`Brehove's topical formulation is a mixture of the
`two compounds described in paragraph 66?
` A Yes.
` Q And neither of those are tavaborole; correct?
` A Correct.
` MR. SHEH: Let's take a quick break.
` (Recess taken.)
` MR. SHEH: Okay. So let's go back on the
`record.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 20
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
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`Page 21
` Q I'd like to return briefly to Brehove, which
`is Exhibit 1008.
` A (Witness complies.)
` Q Dr. Kahl, would you agree that none of the
`compounds discussed in Brehove are tavaborole?
` A I would agree.
` Q In your reply declaration, which is
`Exhibit 1047, you opine on the topic of chemical
`kinetics; is that correct?
` A I do.
` Q What is the study of chemical kinetics?
` A The study of chemical kinetics examines the
`rate at which reactants are converted to products.
` Q And as a chemist, you are familiar with the
`principles underlying the rate of reaction of these
`chemical products, right, or reactants to products?
` A I'm not sure I understand your question.
` Q Okay. As a chemist, are you familiar with the
`principles governing the study of chemical kinetics?
` A Yes.
` Q Are there a number of factors that influence
`the rate of reaction or rates of reaction?
` A Yes.
` Q What are those factors?
` A There are many, among which would be
`
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`Page 21
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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`Page 22
`temperature, concentration, pH. Those would certainly
`be the ones I would -- would be most important.
` Q So concentration is a factor that influences
`the rate of chemical reactions?
` Sorry. I'll rephrase.
` So the concentration of reactants in products
`is a factor that influences the rate of chemical
`reactions?
` A In some cases, yes.
` Q What cases -- in what cases is concentration
`not a factor?
` A In the -- for example, in radioactive decay
`reactions, the concentration of the radioactive reactant
`does not enter into the rate equation.
` Q What about for hydrolysis reactions?
` A Presumably, if the reaction is something other
`than a zero-order reaction, concentration would be a
`factor of both -- concentration of both reactant and
`product -- both reactants. Sorry.
` Q What do you mean by "zero-order reaction"?
` A The rate of a reaction is equal to the rate
`constant times the concentration of reactants. That
`would be reactants that are -- so a zero-order reaction
`would be one in which the concentration of reactants
`does not enter into the rate equation.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 22
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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` Q When would that be true for a hydrolysis
`reaction?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; incomplete
`hypothetical.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't say that the kinetics
`for a hydrolysis reaction -- hydrolysis reaction would
`be zero-order.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` Q So hydrolysis reactions are not zero-order
`reactions; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q Okay. So then concentration of the reactants
`is a factor that influences the rate of hydrolysis
`reactions; is that correct?
` A It may be.
` Q In what situations would the concentration of
`reactants not influence the rate of a hydrolysis
`reaction?
` A A hydrolysis reaction is one in which a
`reactant -- in this case it would be, let's say, a
`borate ester -- reacts with water; therefore, the term
`"hydrolysis."
` You might expect that that reaction -- that
`the rate of that -- the chemical rate of reaction would
`depend on both the concentration of the borate ester and
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 23
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
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`Page 24
`
`of water, but that is not necessarily true.
` Q So my question is: In what cases is it not
`necessarily true?
` A Hydrolysis reactions could, in fact, take
`place using, in a case of kinetics, in a mechanism in
`which the concentration of water did not enter into
`the -- into the rate equation.
` Q In what scenario would the concentration of
`water not enter into the rate equation?
` A When the concentration of water does not
`change appreciably in a chemical reaction, there would
`be no change in the concentration of water in-going for
`reactants to products. And therefore, the reaction
`would appear to be -- it would be first order.
` Q Would you agree that the scenario you just
`described is typically where water is in large excess?
` A Typically.
` Q Is the concentration dependence of a reaction
`rate referred to as the law of mass action?
` A Yes.
` Q And the law of mass action is an accepted
`principle in your field?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. I'll take you to paragraph 7 of your
`reply declaration, which is Exhibit 1047.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 24
`
`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
`
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` A (Witness complies.)
` Q And I'm really looking at page 4, where you --
`and in this paragraph, do you quote Dr. Reider as
`stating that the nail has a relatively high level of
`water content?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Do you agree with Dr. Reider's
`description of the nail as having a relatively high
`level of water content?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope; relevance.
` You can go ahead.
` THE WITNESS: That's not my area of expertise.
` MR. SHEH: Q. Do you have any reason to
`dispute that characterization?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` (Exhibit 1020 introduced to the witness
` for identification.)
` MR. SHEH: Showing you what's been marked as
`Exhibit 1020.
` Q Dr. Kahl, are you familiar with Exhibit 1020?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q Okay. Did you review -- have you reviewed
`Exhibit 1020 in this matter?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 25
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
`
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` A Yes.
` Q Did you review Exhibit 1020 in preparing your
`reply declaration?
` A No.
` Q I'll take you to page 3 of Exhibit 1020.
` A (Witness complies.)
` Q I'm sorry. I just have to ask: What is
`Exhibit 1020?
` A You have to ask -- excuse me. I --
` Q Could you please describe what Exhibit 1020
`is.
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; calls for a
`narrative.
` You can answer.
` THE WITNESS: Well, it's a -- it's a paper in
`the International Journal of Pharmaceutics, a review
`paper that describes drug delivery -- topical drug
`delivery to the nail.
` MR. SHEH: Q. And it's by Sudaxshina Murdan;
`is that correct?
` A It is.
` Q Are you familiar with Dr. Murdan?
` A I am not.
` Q Taking you to page 3 of Exhibit 1020, on the
`right column, bridging over to page 4.
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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` A (Witness complies.)
` Q And here, Dr. Murdan has written the plate,
`ostensibly referring to the nail plate:
` "Also contains water at 10 to 30 percent.
`Water content is directly related to relative humidity
`and is important for nail elasticity and flexibility."
` Do you see that?
` A I see that.
` Q Do you have any reason to dispute Dr. Murdan's
`characterization of the nails having 10 to 30 percent
`water content?
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; outside the scope of
`rebuttal; outside the scope of his expertise; relevance
`and hearsay.
` THE WITNESS: I'm an expert in the chemistry
`of boron compounds, not in nail plates.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` When Dr. Murdan writes that the plate
` contains water at 10 to 30 percent, would a POSA
` understand that to be referring to the mass fraction.
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; same objections.
` THE WITNESS: I think so, yes.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` Q So 10 -- so the 10 percent, which is the
`bottom of the range cited by Dr. Murdan, is 10 weight
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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`percent; right?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: I would presume so, yes.
` MR. SHEH: Okay.
` THE WITNESS: I believe a POSA would presume
`so.
` MR. SHEH: Q. The expression of weight
`percent can be converted to an expression in parts per
`million; is that correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And that's a conversion that a POSA in 2005
`would be able to do?
` A I think so.
` Q Okay. And as an expert in your field, you can
`do the conversion; right?
` A Yes, but given a little time.
` Q Sure.
` Would you agree that 10 weight percent is
`100,000 parts per million?
` A Off the top --
` MR. SEGREST: Objection; scope; relevance and
`foundation.
` THE WITNESS: I --
` MR. SEGREST: You can answer.
` THE WITNESS: I presume that you've done your
`
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`Anacor Exhibit 2047
`Flatwing Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Anacor Pharmaceuticals, Inc.
`IPR2018-00168
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`math correctly.
` MR. SHEH: I'll take that as a compliment.
`Okay.
` Q And then the 30 percent referred to by
`Dr. Murdan would be equivalent to 300,000 parts per
`million?
` MR. SEGREST: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
` MR. SHEH: Q. So Dr. Murdan here has written
`essentially that the nail has between 100,000 parts per
`million to
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