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` S. WHITE
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _____________________________
`
` RIOT GAMES, INC.
`
` Petitioner
`
` v.
`
` PALTALK HOLDINGS, INC.
`
` Patent Owner
`
` _____________________________
`
` Case IPR2018-00129
`
` Patent 5,822,523
`
` Case IPR2018-00130
`
` Patent 5,822,523
`
` Case IPR2018-00131
`
` Patent 6,226,686
`
` Case IPR2018-00132
`
` Patent 6,226,686
`
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. STEVE WHITE
`
` Washington, D.C.
`
` July 24, 2018
`
` Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk; Job No. 144847
`
`Job No. 144847
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`PATENT OWNER EXHIBIT 2004 - PAGE 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` _____________________________
`
` RIOT GAMES, INC.
`
` Petitioner
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` v.
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` PALTALK HOLDINGS, INC.
`
` Patent Owner
`
` _____________________________
`
` Case IPR2018-00129
`
` Patent 5,822,523
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` Case IPR2018-00130
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` Patent 5,822,523
`
` Case IPR2018-00131
`
` Patent 6,226,686
`
` Case IPR2018-00132
`
` Patent 6,226,686
`
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. STEVE WHITE
`
` Washington, D.C.
`
` July 24, 2018
`
` Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk; Job No. 144847
`
`Job No. 144847
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`PATENT OWNER EXHIBIT 2004 - PAGE 1
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` S. WHITE
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`Page 2
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` July 24, 2018
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` 9:00 a.m.
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` Deposition of DR. STEVE WHITE, held at
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`the law offices of Sidley Austin LLP, 1501 K
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`Street, N.W., Washington, D.C., pursuant to
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`Notice before Mary Ann Payonk, Nationally
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`Certified Realtime Reporter and Notary Public
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`of the District of Columbia, Commonwealth of
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`Virginia, and State of New York.
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`PATENT OWNER EXHIBIT 2004 - PAGE 2
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`APPEARANCES:
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`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
`
` SAMUEL DILLON, ESQUIRE
`
` SCOTT BORDER, ESQUIRE
`
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
`
` 1501 K Street, N.W.
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` Washington, D.C. 20005
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`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
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` GREGORY HOWISON, ESQUIRE
`
` KEITH HARDIN, ESQUIRE
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` MUNCK WILSON MANDALA
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` 600 Banner Place Tower
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` 12770 Coit Road
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` Dallas, TX 75251
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`ON BEHALF OF VALVE CORP.:
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` SHARON ISRAEL, ESQUIRE
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` SHOOK, HARDY & BACON
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` 600 Travis Street
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` Houston, TX 77002
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`ALSO PRESENT:
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` Chris Childers, Sidley Austin
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`PATENT OWNER EXHIBIT 2004 - PAGE 3
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` S. WHITE
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`DR. STEVE WHITE,
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` called as a witness, having been duly
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` sworn, was examined and testified as
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` follows:
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` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. HOWISON:
`
` Q. Dr. White, my name is Greg Howison
`
`and I represent the patent owner. And just
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`housekeeping is this deposition is related to
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`four IPRs, 2018-00129, 00130, 00131, and 00132.
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`Is that your understanding?
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` A. I was unaware of the numbers of the
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`particular cases but I will take your word for
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`that.
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` Q. Okay.
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` MR. HOWISON: So no problem with
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` that; right, counsel?
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` MR. DILLON: Yes, for all four
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` proceedings, Dr. White, a single
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` deposition, as we agreed in our earlier
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` email communication.
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` MR. HOWISON: Good, good.
`
` Q. What I want to do is go to your CV,
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`which -- I'm not going to introduce any new
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`exhibits, so I'm only going to talk about
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`exhibits that are already in the IPRs. So it
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`will just be the exhibit number of the IPR.
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` MR. HOWISON: Is that okay?
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` MR. DILLON: Yeah.
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` MR. HOWISON: Okay. That makes it
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` a little easier. So, Keith, can you
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` pull his CV out?
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` MR. HARDEN: There you go.
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` MR. HOWISON: Okay.
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` (Exhibit No. 1008, previously marked, was
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` referenced and indexed.)
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`BY MR. HOWISON:
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` Q. Dr. White, is this your curriculum
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`vitae?
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` A. It appears to be.
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` Q. It's Exhibit 1008. Could you
`
`describe just briefly for the record your
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`experience around 1996?
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` A. I was working at -- I had a Ph.D. in
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`physics. I was working at IBM Research doing
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`research in security systems. I was working
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`on -- I beg your pardon. I'd already finished
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`that.
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` In 1996, I was working on a security
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`project related to computer viruses in which we
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`were trying to automatically detect, create
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`disinfection procedures for and distribute
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`those disinfection procedures all over the
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`world before viruses could catch on.
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` I had previously in the '80s worked
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`on a hardware/software security system
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`combination, and I was working on cryptographic
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`protocols for that system.
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` Q. And even though I didn't say it, if
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`you need to take a break at all during this
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`time -- I hope the deposition will be short,
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`but if you do, let us know.
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` Do you have the two patents, the
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`1001, and 1002. I'm going to hand you these
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`exhibits, 1001 and 1002.
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` (Exhibit No. 1001, previously marked, was
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` referenced and indexed.)
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` (Exhibit No. 1002, previously marked, was
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` referenced and indexed.)
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` MR. HOWISON: These are for patents
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` 5,822,523 and patent 6,226,686 that are
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` the subject matter of these four IPRs.
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` There's two IPRs for one, two IPRs for
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` the other. I'm going to hand those to
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` you.
`
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
`
`BY MR. HOWISON:
`
` Q. As part of your preparation for this
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`IPR, it's my understanding that you actually,
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`you read and understand these patents?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. So is it your understanding
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`also that the specifications are virtually
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`identical?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. I think they're actually identical,
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`but -- so for the purposes of this deposition,
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`I will primarily be referring to the -- to
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`patent 5,822,523, which is Exhibit 1001.
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` A. Okay.
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` Q. And I'll just call that the '523
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`patent --
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. -- if that's okay. Okay. So if you
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`look at the '523 patent --
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. -- on the face of it you'll see it
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`has a file date of February 1, 1996.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Do you understand that that's the
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`priority date of this application?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. And you have an understanding of what
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`priority date means?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. So with respect to the title of that
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`application: "Server group messaging system
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`for interactive applications," this generally
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`describes the subject matter of this
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`application if I may, you know, summarize that.
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`The question is, can you describe your
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`experience with respect to the general area of
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`interactive applications?
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` A. Yes. I have experience when I was
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`speaking previously about working with security
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`systems. We worked on a distributed system
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`of -- a large global distributed system that
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`dealt with computer viruses. We dealt with a
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`separate project, a crypto project. We dealt
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`with a project that communicated securely
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`between nodes on a distributed system.
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` So I was involved in the architecture
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`and programming of the distributed system
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`communication for those projects.
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` Q. Do you have an understanding of what
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`"interactive application" means?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What would that be?
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` A. Broadly, I interpret interactive
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`application to mean an application that -- that
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`a user interacts with. Practically every
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`application that you can see on a screen.
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` MR. HOWISON: So I want to hand you
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` now your declaration, and it's
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` Exhibit 1007.
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` (Exhibit No. 1007, previously marked, was
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` referenced and indexed.)
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`BY MR. HOWISON:
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` Q. This is your declaration; correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And again, it's referring to
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`Exhibit 1007. And on the face of it, it shows
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`that this declaration is with respect to IPR
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`2018-00129, 130, 131 and 132.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. So my questions will basically
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`be directed to your declaration, and it should
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`cover the application of those two patents.
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`Now, did you author this document?
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` A. I did.
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` Q. So would you turn to page 4, which is
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`paragraph 15.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. You see that language that says that
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`your understanding is that the claims must be
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`given their broadest reasonable interpretation.
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`Do you see that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. Is that your understanding?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. Would you turn to paragraph
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`44, which -- page 16, I think. Yeah, page 16.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. In this one, you say that the
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`claims are to be construed in accordance with
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`claim construction standard set forth in -- and
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`it cites a case number. Is this consistent
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`with paragraph 15?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So in paragraph 15 you say they must
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`be given their broadest reasonable
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`interpretation.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And then you come up with a different
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`claim construction standard in paragraph 44
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`that says rather than broadest reasonable
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`interpretation.
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` A. My understanding is that paragraph 15
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`applies to the patents-in-suit, the '523 and
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`'686 patents, and the paragraph that you
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`referred to, 44 and -- beg your pardon. And
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`paragraphs 44 and 45 refer to, as it says in
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`paragraph 44, the claims of an expired patent.
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`And these will I think be typically the patents
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`that we cite as prior art.
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` Q. I think it's -- may just be a mistake
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`but that's -- it just says that in this
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`proceeding in Claim 15 -- in paragraph 15. So
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`the question is this proceeding is involved
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`with these two patents. Isn't that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So if in 15 you say in this
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`proceeding, they must be given their broadest
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`reasonable interpretation, then in 44 it says
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`they must be -- they are to be construed in
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`accordance with the standards of Philips, my
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`only question is, is that consistent or just a
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`mistake?
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` A. I believe these refer to two
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`different sets of patents. I believe the 14
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`and 15 refer to claims of the '523 and '686
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`patents. And 44 and 45 refer to the claims of
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`an expired patent.
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` Q. But if you look at the title above
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`paragraph 44, it says: "Construction of terms
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`used in '523 and '686 patents."
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` A. I see that it says that.
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` Q. Okay. Well, I thought it -- I just
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`wanted to point that out. So if you'll turn to
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`paragraph 28 of Exhibit 1007, which is on page
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`8.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. It refers to a case called KSR. You
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`see that?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. Okay. And it shows up a couple times
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`in your declaration. It also shows up on
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`paragraph 29 on page 9. Have you ever read
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`this case?
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` A. I have not.
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` Q. Okay. In this declaration, on
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`paragraph 29 on page 9, fourth line down, you
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`say -- you used the term "common sense teaches
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`that familiar items," and so on. See that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. So what does that mean to you,
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`"common sense"?
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` A. So the full sentence is: "Common
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`sense teaches that familiar items may have
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`obvious uses beyond the particular application
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`being described in the reference, that if
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`something can be done once, it's obvious to do
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`it multiple times, and in many cases, a person
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`of ordinary skill will be able to fit the
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`teachings of multiple patents together like
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`pieces of a puzzle."
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` So my understanding of this sentence
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`is that it illustrates what a person of
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`ordinary skill is going to be expected to do
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`with familiar teachings.
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` Q. Okay. Well, by a previous answer you
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`said you haven't read KSR; correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Do you have any knowledge of what
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`technology was associated with the case of KSR?
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` A. I do not.
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` Q. So that would be the same answer with
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`respect to the claim that was the subject
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`matter of KSR; is that correct?
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` A. I don't have a familiarity with the
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`KSR case including the claim.
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` Q. Okay. I understand. What I want to
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`do now is jump to the patent overview, and I
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`think that's paragraph 40.
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` A. Uh-huh.
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` Q. Okay. So let's see, paragraph 40,
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`and look at page 14.
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` A. Uh-huh.
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` Q. Okay. You have a sentence that's
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`four lines down, starts with the words "the
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`group messaging."
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` A. "Group messaging server would
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`receive."
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` Q. Yes.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. And you have a statement there
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`that says in quotations "aggregate those
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`messages." Do you see that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. If you'll turn to Exhibit 1001, the
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`'523 patent, and look at column 10, lines
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`20-22. And you also see that in your
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`declaration in paragraph 40 that you supported
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`that language by that column and line.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. And I'll read that line: "The
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`invention also allows aggregating message
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`payloads of multiple messages."
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` See that language?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. So you said "aggregate those
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`messages." Correct? In your paragraph 40.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Why did you leave out "payload"? The
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`point I'm making is that the specification on
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`line 20 says "aggregating message payloads."
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` A. Yes. In the overview in the context
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`of 40 I don't think there's a difference
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`between those.
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` Q. But you agree that the language,
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`"aggregate those messages," is not supported
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`specifically by the language in line 20, column
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`10 of the '523 patent, Exhibit 1001?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. I don't think I'd characterize it
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`like that. 40 is intended to be an overview.
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`It's using the notion of message in perhaps a
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`broader way than is used in the paragraph that
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`you're referring to in the '523 patent. A
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`message -- the idea of a message can mean
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`different things at different layers of the
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`network. And what I get out of this paragraph,
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`that the group messaging server would receive
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`the message, is that it receives not only the
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`payload of the message, but the TCP/IP address
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`of the message, the IP address of the message,
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`the checksum of the message, lots of stuff
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`associated with what you're calling the payload
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`of the message. So I think it's just the same
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`term used in a somewhat broader context.
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` Q. Turn to paragraph 151, I think, on
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`page 84. And actually on page 83 and 84.
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` A. Paragraph 151?
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` Q. Yeah, 151.
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` A. Uh-huh.
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` Q. You have construed -- how did you
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`construe the term "aggregating" in this
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`proceeding with respect to paragraph 151?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. Paragraph 151 is not my construal of
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`the term, it's that the patent owner has
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`identified a previously agreed construction for
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`"aggregate."
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` Q. So is it your testimony that you did
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`not do any analysis with respect to
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`constructing the claim -- coming up with a
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`construction of this claim term?
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` A. I haven't done specific claim
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`construction of this claim term.
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` Q. Is --
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` A. Did that answer your question?
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` Q. Yeah.
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` A. I want to make sure I answer your
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`question.
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` Q. So you have only discussed in
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`paragraph 151 the construction of the term
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`"aggregating"; correct?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. Ask your question again.
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` Q. I'm looking at paragraph 151.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. It says: "Patent owner has
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`identified a previously agreed construction of
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`'aggregating.'"
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So have you read that district court
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`proceeding?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` Q. In the paragraph 150 you refer to a
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`district court proceeding. Is that correct?
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` A. In 151, yes, it refers to that.
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` Q. Have you read that district court
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`proceeding that you referred to in paragraph
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`151?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. I don't know if I have.
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` Q. So do you have any idea as to what
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`claim construction standard was applied by
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`patent owner in any district court proceeding
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`with respect to the term "aggregating"?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. I don't believe I do.
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` Q. So your opinion relies upon a
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`previously agreed construction by patent owner;
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`is that correct?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. Not exactly correct. This paragraph
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`discusses a construction of the word
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`"aggregating" by the patent owner in a previous
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`district court proceeding and then goes on to
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`say how the prior art that was cited would lead
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`to that particular construction. There are
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`other -- I believe other places in the
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`declaration that discuss how the patents would
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`satisfy a more plain and ordinary use of the
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`word "aggregation."
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` Q. So I guess my question is, do you
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`have an opinion as to what the construction of
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`"aggregating" is?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Do you have a construction of what
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`the term, the specific combination of the word
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`"aggregating" and "payload," which is called
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`"aggregating payload," do you have any opinion
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`as to what the construction of that specific
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`combination of words should be?
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` A. My understanding is that you're
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`asking if I have an opinion on the legal
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`construction of the word within a patent case,
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`and the answer is no.
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` Q. So in forming your opinion, what
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`claim construction did you use for the specific
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`combination of "aggregating payload"?
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` A. I examined both the constructions
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`that were asserted by patent owner in previous
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`cases, and I looked at the plain and ordinary
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`meaning of the word, and I attempted to come up
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`with arguments that read on both of those
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`interpretations.
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` Q. Okay. So you just stated that you
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`have -- you relied upon -- so the question is
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`again have you read anything with respect to
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`the prior claim construction of patent owner or
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`prior litigations in these two patents, the
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`'523 --
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` A. I read the -- the case files for the
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`patents and their litigation history.
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` Q. I thought I'd asked you that question
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`earlier.
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` A. I may have misunderstood.
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` Q. Okay. Now, that clarifies that. So
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`you're relying primarily on a previously agreed
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`construction from patent owner in previous
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`proceedings; is that correct?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. I wouldn't characterize it exactly
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`that way. I examined the previously
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`agreed-upon construction from patent owner from
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`previous litigation, and I also looked at the
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`plain and ordinary meaning of the term, and
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`tried to come up with an understanding of prior
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`art that would satisfy both.
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` Q. Okay. In your analysis of the
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`meaning of this claim term, "aggregated
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`payload" -- and maybe I'm assuming that you did
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`analyze that term -- the question is, did you
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`look at any art? Let me clarify that. Did you
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`look at technical articles, talks, issued U.S.
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`patents around the time of the invention to
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`assist you in coming up with claim construction
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`for determining aggregated payload?
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` A. No.
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. No, I relied on my knowledge of the
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`art from having worked in it for decades.
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` Q. Okay. So in -- let's go back to your
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`curriculum vitae, which is 1008.
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` A. Uh-huh.
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` Q. You have a large list of -- pretty
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`impressive list of patents --
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. -- awards. Let's see. What else do
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`you have in here? You got everything.
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`Presentations and publications. And the
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`question is, if you know, is the specific term
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`"aggregated payload" found anywhere in any of
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`those patents, articles, publications?
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` A. I don't know.
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` Q. Did you do a search of your own
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`references listed in your CV in Exhibit 1008
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`for that term?
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` A. No, I did not.
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` Q. Did you -- again, I think you
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`answered the question already, so did you
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`attempt to do any search of the use of that
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`term in the industry around the time of 1996 or
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`before?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` A. No.
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` Q. So is the -- you said it was -- that
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`the understanding of that term, "aggregated
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`payload," was based on your personal
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`knowledge --
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. -- in the industry.
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` A. My professional knowledge.
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` Q. Was that professional knowledge
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`around 1996 or before?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit 1007.
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`What I want to do is go over to page 33. Let
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`me see.
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` MR. HOWISON: Let's take a short
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` break.
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` (Recess taken.)
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` MR. HOWISON: Dr. White, what I
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` want you to do is refer to page 32 of
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` your Exhibit 1007, paragraph 67. We're
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` going to be talking about Aldred, which
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` is Exhibit 1009. I'll hand you a copy
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` of that.
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` (Exhibit No. 1009, previously marked, was
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` referenced and indexed.)
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`BY MR. HOWISON:
`
` Q. You've read and reviewed Aldred; is
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`that correct?
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` A. I have.
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` Q. So in paragraph 67 you talk about
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`serialization and you refer above paragraph 67
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`to figure 22; is that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And I'll direct you to six lines down
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`in paragraph 67, and that sentence, basically
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`that whole quote from 4 down, it talks about
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`that the serialized data -- I guess "data items
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`to be serialized are loaded from the sending
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`ports and held in the order in which it is
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`desired to transmit them to all receiving
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`ports." Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So you have an understanding of what
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`receiving ports are in Aldred?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So the question is, if you know, when
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`you receive or send in association with the
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`serialization concept as disclosed in figure
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`22, what's more important, the order in which
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`they're received or -- at the destination, or
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`the order in which they're sent to the
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`destination?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
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` Q. If that doesn't make sense, I'll try
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`to clarify it.
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` A. Yeah, I'd be appreciative of a
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`clarification of "more important."
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` Q. Okay. There is a sending port --
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`strike that.
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` The data is received and stored in a
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`queue; is that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And it's held in an order in that
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`queue; is that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And then it's transmitted from that
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`queue to the receiving ports of other nodes and
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`computers on the network.
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` A. The ports can be on other computers.
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`They can also be on that same computer.
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` Q. Right. So the question is, when --
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` A. But otherwise, yes. Sorry.
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` Q. So my question is when they're
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`transmitted, this language "in the order"
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`indicates that they're transmitted in some
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`order. Is that correct?
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` A. The language of that quote doesn't
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`say that they'll be transmitted in that order.
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`It says that they're held in the order in which
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`it's desired to transmit them. So that quote
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`doesn't include the transmitting step as I read
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`it.
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` Q. Do you have an understanding in
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`Aldred as to how they're transmitted?
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` A. I don't understand the question.
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` Q. In the operation of the
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`serialization, this data is held in a queue --
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. -- is that correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. And it says they are held in the
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`order in which it is desired to transmit them
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`to all receiving ports.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And those receiving ports are on some
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`application or some computer, but they're a
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`destination; is that correct?
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` A. They're associated with other
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`applications, yes. With applications, could be
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`any application.
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` Q. So do you know if the serialization
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`operation transmits them in the order in which
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`they are held?
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` A. I'll have to do a little digging on
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`that.
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` Q. It's probably on page 51 because
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`everything else is on Aldred.
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` A. Thank you.
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` Q. I might refer you to page 7 too.
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` A. 7?
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` Q. Yeah, page 7 there's that language
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`that we had discussed a little bit before.
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` A. Thank you.
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` Q. It's that middle paragraph.
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` A. Paragraph 24?
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` Q. Well, no. This is page 7 of 1009.
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` A. Oh, I beg your pardon.
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` Q. It's that middle paragraph, "Four
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`channels are supported." And you actually
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`discuss that in paragraph 61 of your
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`declaration also, and it just says: "Data
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`packets are combined from different channels,
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`serialized, and delivered to each application
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`such that each receiving port receives the same
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`sequence of data."
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` A. So, yeah, the -- the paragraph --
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` Q. 61 is what -- you discuss that
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`specific thing in 61.
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` A. Yeah. So the paragraph that you're
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`referring to on 67 describes the -- they're
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`held in order in which it is desired to
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`transmit them on the receiving port. The
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`paragraph that you just pointed me to in Aldred
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`says the important thing about them, which is
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`whatever order is transmitted, it has to be
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`transmitted in the same order to each of the
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`receiving nodes. That's what keep -- that's
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`what synchronization means in this context. It
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`keeps the state -- it helps keeps the state of
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`each of the receiving nodes the same. If these
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`things were transmitted --
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` Q. I think you misspoke. You said
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` S. WHITE
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`synchronization. We're talking about --
`
` A. Beg your pardon. You're absolutely
`
`right. Serialization means that the same data,
`
`the serializing channel transmits the same data
`
`to the receiving nodes in the same order. The
`
`question that you asked was more specific, and
`
`that is, is the order in which they're
`
`transmitted the order in which they're held in
`
`the queue. And I don't see a sentence here
`
`which addresses that specifically, but that's a
`
`reasonable inference from the notion that
`
`there's a queue and that things are sent in the
`
`order in which they're intended to be
`
`transmitted.
`
` Q. So the question is if you transmit in
`
`a particular order from the serializing queue,
`
`is it important to receive the data in the same
`
`order that it was transmitted?
`
` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
`
` A. Is it important? I'm not sure what
`
`you mean by "is it important." In what sense?
`
` Q. Well, if you -- if you send out data
`
`packets from a serializing queue and you send a
`
`data packet out at one time and a data packet
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`PATENT OWNER EXHIBIT 2004 - PAGE 29
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`
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`Page 30
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` S. WHITE
`
`out at a second time, so you -- for example,
`
`you send packet A out at time T1, data packet
`
`out 2, data packet B out at time T2, what if
`
`they were received in the reverse order at the
`
`receiving port?
`
` MR. DILLON: Objection to form.
`
` Q. Do I need to clarify that maybe?
`
` A. I think I understand the question.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. I don't see language here that
`
`restricts the order in which they're held in
`
`the queue or transmitted to the order in which
`
`they're received. The emphasis is on sending
`
`them in the same order to each of the -- each
`
`of the receiving channels. Holding them and
`
`transmitting them in the same order in which
`
`they are received would be a natural thing to
`
`do. There's an implementation ambiguity in the
`
`term "the order in which they're received."
`
`They would typically be received by different
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`processes, and the processes may have different
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`timings associated with t
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