Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`Page 1
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` ____________________________________
` ZTE (USA), INC., SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
` CO., LTD., AND SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
` AMERICA, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` FUNDAMENTAL INNOVATION SYSTEMS
` INTERNATIONAL, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` ____________________________________
` CASE NO. IPR2018-00111
`
` DEPOSITION OF KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
` THURSDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2018
`
`CHERYL ASADA, CSR 13496
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`ZTE 1015-0001
`IPR2018-00111
`
`

`

`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`
`Page 2
`1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`34567
`
`DEPOSITION OF KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D., taken on behalf
`8 of PETITIONER at the offices of Irell & Manella,
`9 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900, Los Angeles,
`10 California, commencing at 9:31 a.m. and concluding at
`11 1:32 p.m., Thursday, October 25, 2018, before CHERYL
`12 ASADA, Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 13496.
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` I N D E X
`W I T N E S S:
`KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D., PAGE
` EXAMINATION BY MS. ZHANG 6
` EXAMINATION BY MS. ZHONG 89
`INFORMATION REQUESTED:
` (NONE)
`QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER:
` (NONE)
`
` E X H I B I T S
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1 U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, 36
` Before the Patent Trial and Appeal
` Board, ZTE (USA) Inc., et al., v.
` Fundamental Innovation Systems
` International LLC. Case IPR
` 2018-00111, Patent No. 8,624,550,
` Patent Owner's Response
`Exhibit U.S. Patent No. 8,624,550 (Bates 72
`1001 Numbers: ZTE/SAMSUNG 1001-0001 to
` ZTE/SAMSUNG 1001-0012)
`Exhibit U.S. Patent No. 6,625,738 (Bates 78
`1006 Numbers: ZTE/SAMSUNG 1006-0001 to
` ZTE/SAMSUNG 1006-0011)
`
`Page 5
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (CONTINUED)
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, 6
`2011 Before the Patent Trial and Appeal
` Board, ZTE (USA) Inc., et al., v.
` Fundamental Innovation Systems
` International LLC. Case IPR
` 2018-00111, Patent No. 8,624,550,
` Declaration of Kenneth Fernald
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`A P P E A R A N C E S :
` Attorneys for the Petitioner:
` McDERMOTT WILL & EMERY
` By: JIAXIAO ZHANG, Attorney at Law
` 4 Park Plaza, Suite 1700
` Irvine, California 92614
` 949-851-0633
` jiazhang@mwe.com
` -and-
` McDERMOTT WILL & EMERY
` By: CHARLES M. McMAHON, Attorney at Law
` 444 West Lake Street
` Chicago, IL 60606
` 312-372-2000
` cmcmahon@mwe.com
` Attorneys for the Patent Owner:
` IRELL & MANELLA, LLP
` By: HONG (ANNITA) ZHONG, Attorney at Law
` 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
` Los Angeles, California 90067
` 310-203-7183
` hzhong@irell.com
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`ZTE 1015-0002
`IPR2018-00111
`
`

`

`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`
`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`Page 7
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`1 BY MS. ZHANG:
`2 Q. So that's marked as Exhibit 2011. I won't be
`3 using it right now, but just so you have it on hand just
`4 in case you need it.
`5 A. Understood.
`6 Q. Just to get the standard question out of the
`7 way.
`8 Is there anything that you're under the control
`9 of this morning that would affect your ability to
`10 competently testify in this proceeding?
`11 A. Nothing that I'm aware of.
`12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`13 So I'm handing to you what's been --
`14 U.S. Patent No. 6,556,564 to Rogers titled, "Scheduled
`15 Internet Protocol Telephone Instrument System." It's
`16 already Exhibit of Record 1005.
`17 MS. ZHANG: Oh, do you need a copy, Annita?
`18 MS. ZHONG: No, I have a copy.
`19 MR. McMAHON: You can just give her a copy.
`20 MS. ZHANG: Okay.
`21 BY MS. ZHANG:
`22 Q. The '564 patent is directed to a LAN telephone.
`23 Right?
`24 A. Effectively, yes.
`25 Q. Okay. Is an example of the LAN telephone shown
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`ZTE 1015-0003
`IPR2018-00111
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`Page 8
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`1 in Figure 1, for example?
`2 A. Yes. At least in part.
`3 Q. Okay. The LAN telephone receives power over
`4 Ethernet through LAN cabeling. Right?
`5 A. That is my understanding, yes.
`6 Q. The LAN telephone attaches peripheral devices
`7 through an electronic interface system. Right?
`8 A. He calls them accessories, I believe is what
`9 you're referring to. Effectively, yes. I don't know if
`10 that's the language that Rogers uses in his -- of course
`11 he refers to it as USB-interfaced.
`12 Q. So the LAN telephone attaches accessories
`13 through an interface system -- electronic interface
`14 system. Right?
`15 A. That's a fair description, yes.
`16 Q. Turning to the embodiment shown on Figure 6 of
`17 the '564 patent, the Rogers patent, how does the LAN
`18 cabling provide power to the LAN telephone instrument of
`19 Figure 6?
`20 A. It receives two pairs of power from the LAN
`21 cable is what's disclosed. Each one is disclosed at
`22 being, I believe, at 48 volts and a maximum of
`23 500 milliamps, so that provides of the input side,
`24 effectively, 48 watts, 48 volts and 1 amp total. And
`25 then, of course, there is conversion that happens along
`Page 9
`1 the way before it actually powers the various components
`2 that need power.
`3 Q. So I think what you're referring to in Figure 6
`4 is the twisted pairs 3 and 4, for example. Is that
`5 right?
`6 A. Yes. That is what I was referring to on the
`7 left of that figure.
`8 Q. Okay. And that feeds in through Pins 4, 5 or 7
`9 and 8 through the LAN Connector 80. Is that right?
`10 A. Yes. That's correct.
`11 Q. And then how much current then does the
`12 '564 patent disclose that the LAN cable can handle?
`13 A. It discloses that it's 24-gauge American wire
`14 gauge, which is specified, in fact, to carry for power
`15 purposes, he says, 500 milliamps -- up to 500 milliamps.
`16 Q. Okay.
`17 A. The standard says actually slightly above that,
`18 but, you know, he's being conservative.
`19 Q. And this is at 48 VDC?
`20 A. It is delivered at 48 VDC. The current
`21 carrying capability of the wire, though, is independent
`22 of the voltage.
`23 Q. And what voltages are contemplated by the
`24 '564 patent?
`25 A. Where in the system --
`
`Page 6
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2018
` 9:31 A.M. - 1:32 P.M.
` -0o0-
`
` KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.,
` having been duly administered an oath
` in accordance with CCP 2094, was
` examined and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MS. ZHANG:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Fernald. How are you?
` A. Good morning. Thank you. I'm very well.
`Thank you for asking me.
` Q. Great. Thanks for meeting us today.
` A. My pleasure.
` MS. ZHANG: I am just going to go ahead and
`give you a copy of your declaration to have on hand for
`reference.
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
` MS. ZHANG: And here's one for you as well.
` (Exhibit 2011 was marked for
` identification by the shorthand
` reporter.)
`///
`
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`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`
`Page 10
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`1 MS. ZHONG: Objection to form.
`2 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
`3 Where in the system are you asking about? Are
`4 we still talking about on the LAN cable?
`5 BY MS. ZHANG:
`6 Q. In terms of once you get into the system
`7 itself, what voltages are contemplated in terms of supply
`8 or other aspects?
`9 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`10 THE WITNESS: Well, I can list you the
`11 voltages. For instance, here he converts the 48 volts to
`12 5 volts in the phone itself. And then there are later
`13 figures that show it being converted further to
`14 3.3 volts, if that answers your question.
`15 BY MS. ZHANG:
`16 Q. Yes. Thank you.
`17 And unlike most LAN -- unlike most telephones,
`18 the Rogers LAN telephone is capable of supporting a
`19 variety of accessories. Right?
`20 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that it's unlike
`22 other telephones, but he does support at least two
`23 accessories that he mentions explicitly.
`24 BY MS. ZHANG:
`25 Q. If I could direct your attention to Column 10
`Page 11
`
`1 of Rogers.
`2 A. I'm there.
`3 Q. And Line 56. Can you read that part, please?
`4 A. How far do you think I need to go?
`5 Q. Just a few lines.
`6 A. Okay.
`7 Q. So this part starting at line 56, (reading):
`8 "The disclosed LAN telephone, unlike
`9 most other telephones, is capable of
`10 supporting a variety of accessories."
`11 A. I see that, yes.
`12 Q. This is '564 patent, Column 10, Lines 56 to 57,
`13 (reading):
`14 "These accessories include an operator
`15 console and an external speakerphone
`16 unit."
`17 That's Lines 58 to 59.
`18 Would you agree, then, that unlike most other
`19 telephones, Rogers' LAN telephone is capable of
`20 supporting a variety of accessories?
`21 A. I can only take this at face value. I'm not
`22 investigating whether that is, in fact, correct or not.
`23 Q. But this is what the --
`24 A. I mean, the "unlike" part. I agree that he can
`25 take a variety of accessories. Whether it's unlike most
`
`Page 12
`1 other telephones, I don't know the answer to that.
`2 Q. Understood.
`3 The disclosed LAN telephone uses a modified USB
`4 for interconnection of telephone accessories. Right?
`5 A. Yes. That's almost exactly the language Rogers
`6 uses, in fact, is modified USB interface.
`7 Q. Right. I think at Column 10, Lines 64 to 67,
`8 (reading):
`9 "In contrast, the disclosed LAN
`10 telephone uses a modified USB for
`11 interconnection of telephone accessories
`12 to the disclosed LAN telephone."
`13 A. I see that, yes.
`14 Q. If we could continue on to Column 10, please,
`15 of the patent.
`16 A. You say -- you say Column 10.
`17 Q. Or, sorry, Column 11.
`18 A. Oh. I'm there.
`19 Q. Okay. It says -- or I'm sorry.
`20 This starts at the bottom of Column 10,
`21 line 671, (reading):
`22 "One difficulty with the existing
`23 USB" -- continuing on to Column 11, line
`24 1 -- "is that it has only a limited
`25 capability to provide power to a
`
`Page 13
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`1 connected device."
`2 Is that right?
`3 A. I see that, yes.
`4 Q. And this is too little for many potential
`5 devices. Is that right?
`6 A. Yes. He says something to that effect a little
`7 later on in this paragraph. Let me find it here.
`8 At Line 7, he goes through the fact that -- or
`9 up until then he goes through the fact that USB
`10 unmodified can provide half an amp at 5 volts, which is
`11 two-and-a-half watts, and he also discusses the fact that
`12 a certain class of devices -- and I suspect we'll talk
`13 about later -- are limited to a hundred milliamps, in
`14 fact, and then he says, "this is too little for many
`15 practical devices."
`16 I'm sorry. I misspoke. It says, "this is too
`17 little for many potential devices."
`18 Q. Potential devices.
`19 That would be expected to be connected to the
`20 LAN telephone of Rogers?
`21 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It's -- this looks like a
`23 more general statement to me, but, apparently, that's
`24 what -- you know, in the context of Rogers, that's at
`25 least his primary concern is what his own accessories
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`ZTE 1015-0004
`IPR2018-00111
`
`

`

`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
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`Page 14
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`1 would be able to pull for power.
`2 BY MS. ZHANG:
`3 Q. And according to the Rogers patent, how much
`4 current does a typical LED indicator use?
`5 A. That's just a bit further down in the section.
`6 Actually, the very next sentence from where I was
`7 reading. "For instance, a typical LED indicator uses
`8 20 milliamps," obviously when it's on, compared to off.
`9 Q. And in the context of the Rogers patent, if a
`10 USB-compliant cable has two wires supplying 5 volts DC
`11 current -- 5 volts DC, and then the current is limited to
`12 .5 amps as the '564 patent sets out, what would be the
`13 maximum power available?
`14 A. When you say "two wires," you mean one for VBUS
`15 and one for ground?
`16 Q. Uh-huh.
`17 A. In terms of what is available, that would be
`18 two-and-a-half watts assuming that the host device
`19 authorized to use that much power, under your
`20 assumptions, of course. There are scenarios where that
`21 much power is not even available on a USB port.
`22 Q. Okay. So maximum 2.5 watts then?
`23 A. In the right scenario, under the right
`24 conditions and, again, if the host allows it. Because
`25 that level of power has to be negotiated, basically,
`Page 15
`
`1 between the device and the host.
`2 Q. And then, if devices were chained together, it
`3 would still only be a maximum of 2.5 watts. Isn't that
`4 right?
`5 A. At the originating port, yes, assuming nothing
`6 along the way is -- or assuming everything is bus-powered
`7 along the way.
`8 Q. With no external supply of power?
`9 A. No external supply. No batteries. And, again,
`10 using the numbers from the USB specification of 5 volts
`11 and half a milliamp -- excuse me, half an amp.
`12 Q. And then under the Rogers construct, any given
`13 device can only use .1 amps. Is that right?
`14 A. He makes that statement. He's -- if you take
`15 it in context, he's referring to a certain class of
`16 devices within his system -- or within USB, I should say,
`17 and that would be in particular devices operating from a
`18 bus-powered hub.
`19 Q. So with .1 amps, that would be a maximum
`20 of .5 watts per device under a 5 volt DC supply. Right?
`21 A. I'll -- I'll paraphrase to make sure we're
`22 clear.
`23 If the device is receiving 5 volts and .1 amps,
`24 it would be receiving half a watt. And actually, Rogers
`25 states as much at Lines 6 and 7 of Column 11.
`
`Page 16
`1 Q. Okay. So under such constraints, how many
`2 typical LEDs could be supported using this,
`3 quote-unquote, existing USB that Rogers sets out?
`4 A. Let's see. The operator unit would be allowed
`5 the full 500 milliamps since it is connected straight to
`6 the base unit. So whatever 500 divided by 20 is,
`7 assuming that each LED is on and is also using
`8 20 milliamps, of course.
`9 So, what, that's 25-ish? I think it is 25.
`10 So 25 LEDs could be on simultaneously with that
`11 500 milliamps, neglecting any other power that, of
`12 course, is required in the operator unit.
`13 Q. Doesn't Rogers say on Column 11, Line 9 through
`14 11 that "an accessory using the existing USB could have
`15 five LEDs, and nothing else"?
`16 A. You'll have to direct me -- I'm sorry. What
`17 were those line numbers again? I apologize.
`18 Q. That's okay. Column 11, Lines 9 through 11.
`19 A. He states that. He appears, though, to be
`20 referring to an accessory that's downstream of the
`21 operator unit as in it's restricted to the
`22 hundred-milliamp number, so like LEDs on a speakerphone,
`23 for example, if they have them.
`24 Q. So a downstream device that had LEDs, how many
`25 LEDs could that downstream device have supported using
`Page 17
`
`1 only .1 amps?
`2 A. Again, if it's downstream of the -- of a bus --
`3 bus-powered hub, which is limited to a hundred milliamps,
`4 then it would be five LEDs, as Rogers states in those
`5 lines that you cited.
`6 Q. Okay.
`7 A. Again, that's -- it could have more LEDs, but
`8 five could be on at a time neglecting other power
`9 consumption.
`10 Q. And if more than five need to be on at a time?
`11 A. Then they would have to provide external power
`12 or find another solution.
`13 Q. Okay.
`14 A. Not plug it in to a bus-powered hub, for
`15 example. Actually, a really other common technique is
`16 you timeshare them. You, basically, flash them on and
`17 off in sequence so fast that the human eye thinks they're
`18 all on at the same time, but they really aren't. And
`19 that way you take that current and you divide it by the
`20 duty cycle of each LED. That's a very common technique.
`21 Q. And the operator console shown in Figure 1, if
`22 we can go back to that, that shows more than five LEDs.
`23 Right?
`24 A. You know, just from this picture, I can't tell
`25 what is an LED and what is a button. We'd have to go to
`
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`
`ZTE 1015-0005
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`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`Page 18
`1 the text description, I think, to really answer your
`2 question.
`3 Q. Uh-huh. So if we look at Column 11, Lines 11
`4 to 13, (reading):
`5 "The Operator Console 7 of Figure 1,
`6 could easily have 20 or even 100 such
`7 LEDs, and require other power as well."
`8 A. I see that. Yeah. So that indicates it could
`9 have more than five.
`10 Q. And how much current would an operator console
`11 with a hundred LEDs operating at 5 volts require?
`12 A. If you're assuming they're all operating at a
`13 hundred percent, so they're not being timeshared as I've
`14 discussed, that would be -- see. They would need --
`15 making me do math here -- they would need 2 amps total,
`16 so that that is delivered at 5 volts, that would be
`17 5 watts -- I'm sorry, 10 watts of power assuming there's
`18 no other power conversion that's going on between the
`19 5 volts -- in other words, assuming there's only linear
`20 regulation between the 5 volts and the LEDs.
`21 Q. And 10 watts is greater than the 2.5-watts
`22 maximum power supported by USB-compliant devices that we
`23 talked about. Right?
`24 A. Of course it is, yes.
`25 Q. So it seems, then, that another solution is
`Page 19
`1 needed, right, based on what we've been talking about?
`2 An alternative to the 5 volts?
`3 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`4 THE WITNESS: Well, an alternative to 5 volts
`5 as one solution is the solution that Rogers selects.
`6 Again, you can simply provide the operator an external
`7 power source, too, so...
`8 BY MS. ZHANG:
`9 Q. But if you don't have an external power source?
`10 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`11 THE WITNESS: There are many solutions, yeah.
`12 Rogers doesn't -- you know, Rogers uses one in particular
`13 that he sees as an advantage.
`14 BY MS. ZHANG:
`15 Q. Does Rogers say anything about timesharing
`16 LEDs?
`17 A. I don't believe he does, no.
`18 Q. Okay. Does Rogers say anything about duty
`19 cycle?
`20 A. Well, he -- he might in the context of the way
`21 he's timesharing the LAN connection, but not in the
`22 context of controlling LEDs that I remember.
`23 Q. So Rogers doesn't say anything about
`24 timesharing or duty cycling, any variations in terms of
`25 LEDs?
`
`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`Page 20
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`1 A. Not that I remember.
`2 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`3 If we can turn to Figures -- Figure 6 again.
`4 So -- and you had mentioned that Rogers discloses both
`5 48 volts and 5 volts. I believe that's shown by a DC-DC
`6 Converter 84 in Figure 6. Is that right?
`7 A. Well, that's one of the converters that
`8 generates 5 volts in his system, yes.
`9 Q. Okay. And where would a 48-volt output come in
`10 the Rogers system in Figure 6?
`11 A. Rogers does not show generating 48 volts in
`12 these figures. The 48 volts comes from the LAN cable.
`13 Q. So the LAN cable feeds in 48 volts?
`14 A. Through that connector on the left.
`15 Q. Through the connector on the left. So LAN
`16 Connector 80. Right?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. The power over Ethernet?
`19 And then that's fed through Pins 4, 5 or 7, 8
`20 out to -- at the top right there, Accessory Power
`21 System 86. Is that right?
`22 A. I'm sorry. I need you to repeat that question.
`23 Q. Sure. So the 48 volts that is fed, supplied
`24 through the LAN Connector 80 in Figure 6, that can be
`25 supplied to an accessory power system at the top, 86. Is
`Page 21
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`1 that right?
`2 A. Yes. Yes.
`3 Q. Okay. And then, alternatively, if there's a
`4 conversion to 5 volts, that can come out and be supplied
`5 off of Accessory Power System 85. Is that right?
`6 A. That's my understanding, is that, for
`7 example -- for example, USB cables can either receive 48
`8 or 5, and that's either the 86 or the 85 pins in that
`9 Figure 6, if that answers your question.
`10 Q. But there's no USB specifically in Figure 6.
`11 Right?
`12 A. No, no. Not in Figure 6. That's shown
`13 elsewhere.
`14 Q. Okay. Would that be Figure 7(a)?
`15 A. Let's take a look. I believe this is the
`16 correct figure. I want to go check the text to be sure
`17 of it.
`18 Q. Sure.
`19 A. I'm pretty sure it is, in fact.
`20 Q. So how would Figure 7(a) slot in with Figure 6?
`21 A. Without looking at the description to verify,
`22 I'll take a stab at it here; that, if you go back to
`23 Figure 6, there's a pair of wires associated with a
`24 48-volt Accessory Power System 86 and a pair of wires for
`25 Accessory Power System 85.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`ZTE 1015-0006
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`

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`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
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`Page 22
`1 Each pair represents a supply and a ground, and
`2 looks like supply is always -- let's say supply is always
`3 the top signal and ground is always the bottom, although
`4 for the pair 85, that's a bit ambiguous.
`5 So on Figure 7(a), they, for the most part,
`6 don't show the ground anywhere. So they're just talking
`7 about the interesting part, which is the 5- or the
`8 48-volt positive supply. And then they would be received
`9 at the terminals labeled 90 and 91, being the 48 volts
`10 and 5 volts, respectively.
`11 Q. Okay. So the 48 volts coming in at what's
`12 VDC -- what's labeled VDC 90 and the 5 volts at VDC 91?
`13 A. Yes. That's what the annotation here
`14 indicates. I would want to go check the description,
`15 make sure there's nothing subtle I'm missing if you think
`16 that doesn't ring true.
`17 Q. Feel free to check it, if you like.
`18 A. Okay. Do you happen to know where it is in
`19 the --
`20 Q. I believe --
`21 A. You've got it down?
`22 Q. -- that's just continuing on in Column 11.
`23 A. I see it. Give me just a moment then.
`24 Q. Sure.
`25 A. Yeah. I don't see the numbers 90 and -- I
`Page 23
`1 don't see the numbers 90 and 91 based on a quick scan, so
`2 I'm guessing that Rogers is depending on the figures
`3 themselves to document those specific connections of --
`4 but I'm sure of my answer.
`5 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`6 A. Yep.
`7 Q. So the embodiment depicted in Figure 6 delivers
`8 48 volts DC, and we talked about it being delivered at
`9 500 milliamps.
`10 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`11 BY MS. ZHANG:
`12 Q. For 24 watts.
`13 A. Not quite. What Rogers discloses is that each
`14 of the two -- each of a pair of 48-volt lines that the
`15 LAN connector provide, half an amp, so the LAN connector
`16 is providing up to 1 amp at 48 volts. How much of that
`17 current goes to the accessories versus the use of the
`18 phone itself is not clear from Rogers except, you know,
`19 Rogers is staying to the 500 milliamp USB limit that he
`20 refers to in the USB spec.
`21 And maybe I misheard your question, but I
`22 thought I heard you say that 48 volts and 1 amp was
`23 delivered to the accessories, but...
`24 Q. Between the pair.
`25 A. I don't know what you mean by that. If we're
`
`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`Page 24
`1 off track, we'll have to start over. I apologize.
`2 Q. So at 48 VDC, through the LAN, you can get a
`3 maximum of 24 watts at 500 milliamps of current.
`4 A. On each wire. He -- he says that each wire can
`5 deliver up to effectively 24 watts at 4- -- 48 volts,
`6 excuse me.
`7 Q. Right. So between the two wires then, the
`8 twisted pair, you get up to 48 watts. Right?
`9 A. Correct.
`10 Q. Right. And then, as you had your accessories
`11 connected and the determination is made that an accessory
`12 is not capable of supporting 48 volts DC, then there's
`13 some latching that goes on here to switch it back to a
`14 5-volt DC. Is that right?
`15 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`16 THE WITNESS: Well, it starts at 5-volt DC.
`17 BY MS. ZHANG:
`18 Q. Uh-huh.
`19 A. So it's kind of the opposite of what you
`20 described.
`21 It starts at 5 volt and switches to 48 when it
`22 gets an affirmation from the query response that the
`23 device can handle 48 volts. In other words, it's a
`24 modified device per the Rogers invention.
`25 Q. So the modified device provides for both the
`Page 25
`
`1 5 volts or the 48 volts?
`2 A. That's what Rogers shows and, given that it
`3 always starts at 5 volts, that seems reasonable that they
`4 would all have to be capable of that at least in some
`5 fashion. He does document that they may have to suffer
`6 reduced performance, for example, if they -- if they stay
`7 on 5 volts.
`8 Q. And then going between Figures 7(a) and 7(b),
`9 if the -- the VBUS here on -- or Pin 1 on the right
`10 portion of Figure 7(a) of either 5 or 48 VDC, depending
`11 on what the determination of the switch, where does that
`12 feed into on Figure 7(b)?
`13 A. Assuming that 7(b) -- it is an accessory.
`14 Assuming it's the accessory -- I believe it's actually
`15 specifically documented as being the operator unit.
`16 Assuming it's plugged directly into the base
`17 unit, then Pin 1 would connect to Pin 1 between those two
`18 connectors, the Connectors 104 and 105 through a cable.
`19 Q. Uh-huh --
`20 A. Presumably.
`21 Q. So Rogers depicts in Figure 7(a), then, of the
`22 LAN telephone a source power system connecting to an
`23 accessory through Pin 1 VBUS. Isn't that right?
`24 A. Yeah. If they're connected together, that's
`25 what -- I wouldn't say that's what these figures are
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`ZTE 1015-0007
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`

`

`8 (Pages 26 to 29)
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`Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D. - October 25, 2018
`
`Page 26
`1 showing per se, but that is what would happen when
`2 they're connected. He's describing them independently,
`3 you know, the base unit power versus the operator unit
`4 power.
`5 Q. Okay. And then in Figure 7(b), a 5-volt VBUS
`6 off of Pin 1 is either passed for down conversion through
`7 48-5 DC-DC convertor 112 or to a 5-to-3.3 DC-DC convertor
`8 114 to supply accessory power out on 117. Right?
`9 A. What you said is not exactly correct.
`10 You said a VBUS 5 volts would be so forth, so
`11 on.
`12 The 5 volts -- let me back up.
`13 When VBUS is at 5 volts, it would not be passed
`14 into a 48-to-5 converter. That converter would basically
`15 be turned off; although, I don't know if Rogers goes into
`16 that detail.
`17 You know, it would pass straight through to the
`18 5-to-3 volt converter because it is already 5 volts. The
`19 front converter, Converter 112, would only be used when
`20 VBUS is at 48 volts, and that's when its outlet switch
`21 would be closed, and it would then feed -- generate the
`22 5 volts to both -- whatever needs 5 volts and then to
`23 that second converter.
`24 Q. Uh-huh. So you would have -- your accessory
`25 power would have the 5 volts or the 3.3 volts be passed
`Page 27
`
`1 to it accordingly. Right?
`2 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`3 THE WITNESS: No. No. My understanding from
`4 this is that the accessory always receives the 3.3 volts.
`5 That's what it runs from.
`6 How it's generated depends on the input voltage
`7 coming in. But the 5 volts, at least as Rogers describes
`8 it, is used for downstream power circuits. That what it
`9 says to accessory downstream power up at the top of that
`10 figure.
`11 I don't remember this being any indication that
`12 the operator unit, itself, would use 5 volts for its own
`13 power that I recall.
`14 BY MS. ZHANG:
`15 Q. And what would be connected at the accessory
`16 downstream power circuit at the top of Figure 7(b)?
`17 A. Well, Rogers discloses a -- what he calls a
`18 downstream USB connector in the operator unit that could
`19 power, for example, a speakerphone -- his external
`20 speakerphone.
`21 Q. So would it be another of 7(b), in essence?
`22 MS. ZHONG: Objection, form.
`23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if he describes
`24 it in that detail or not, in that much detail. I would
`25 have to go look.
`
`Page 28
`
`1 BY MS. ZHANG:
`2 Q. Could it be another 7(b)?
`3 A. Could it?
`4 Q. Since this gives accessory power, this
`5 configuration shown on 7(b)?
`6 A. From looking at this, I'm assuming a
`7 speakerphone would at least have to accept either 5 or
`8 48 volts because VBUS is passed straight through to that
`9 downstream circuit. Beyond that, I don't remember that
`10 Rogers discusses how its power conversion would be
`11 structured.
`12 I just don't recall there being much
`13 information at all in that regard. Since it doesn't have
`14 a downstream port, for example, I don't know why would
`15 you need to generate 5 volts if it's getting 48. So it's
`16 probably different.
`17 Q. Why are they different?
`18 A. I think I explained that. If the -- if the
`19 speakerphone does not have a downstream port, it doesn't
`20 need to have the 5 volts to pass down to it. So I don't
`21 know why it would need to generate -- necessarily need to
`22 generate 5 volts. I mean, it might for other reasons.
`23 That information is simply not in Rogers, that I recall.
`24 Q. But if it's connected by USB, then wouldn't it
`25 operate at 5 volts, potentially?
`
`Page 29
`1 A. No. I said that. I said that it might need to
`2 operate at either a 48 or 5, but I don't know why it
`3 would need to generate a 5, if it's not getting it. If
`4 it's getting 48, it may have a power converter or power
`5 structure that looks just completely different from this.
`6 There's just no information in Rogers about that.
`7 Q. But Rogers doesn't say that it would be
`8 something other than 5 or 48?
`9 A. He's silent. He's never suggesting that the
`10 voltage is on VBUS, if that's what you're asking me.
`11 What internal supply this speakerphone operates
`12 from, he's simply -- he's silent on that, that I recall.
`13 Q. But between Figure 7(a) and 7(b), the VBUS
`14 there is -- it's on Pin 1, it's either a 5-volts or a
`15 48-volt input. Right?
`16 A. That's correct. Yeah.
`17 Q. If we can move to your declaration, please.
`18 A. Sure.
`19 Q. Exhibit 2011. On -- this is 2011-40, so it's
`20 numbered page 37 at the bottom, but the exhibit is
`21 2011-40.
`22 A. You said the exhibit is 2-0 --
`23 Q. So the numbering in the corner --
`