UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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` Case IPR2018-00067
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` Patent 8,577,813
`
`______________________________
`
`UNIFIED PATENTS INC., )
`
` Petitioner, )
`
` v. )
`
`UNIVERSAL SECURE REGISTRY )
`
`L.L.C., )
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
`______________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF ERIC BRIAN COLE
`
` Reston, Virginia
`
` Friday, December 14, 2018
`
`REPORTED BY: Barbara DeVico, CRR, RMR
`
`JOB NO. 152683
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`USR Exhibit 2015, Page 1
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`APPEARANCES:
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
`
` MICHELLE CALLAGHAN, ESQUIRE
` ERISE
` 5600 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard
` Greenwood Village, CO 80111
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` RAZMIG MESSERIAN, ESQUIRE
` QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN
` 865 South Figueroa Street
` Los Angeles, CA 90017
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` Friday, December 14, 2018
` 9:00 a.m.
`
`Deposition of ERIC BRIAN COLE, held at the law offices
`of Regus, 11921 Freedom Drive, Reston, Virginia,
`pursuant to Notice before Barbara DeVico, Certified
`Realtime Reporter and Certified Nationally Certified
`Realtime Reporter and Registered Merit Reporter and
`Notary Public of the District of Columbia and the states
`of Maryland and Virginia.
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`Page 4
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` E. Cole
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` ***********************
`
` ERIC BRIAN COLE,
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`having been called as a witness on behalf of the Patent
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`Owner and having been first duly sworn, was examined and
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`testified as follows:
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`EXAMINATION BY
`
`MR. MESSERIAN:
`
` Q Good morning. My name is Razmig
`
`Messerian. I'm with the firm Quinn Emanuel, and I'm
`
`here on behalf of Universal Secure Registry LLC.
`
` We are here to discuss the IPR for Patent
`
`No. 8,577,813; is that right?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q Could you please state your name for the
`
`record.
`
` MR. MESSERIAN: You already got the
`
`name, right?
`
` Q It seems like you've been deposed at
`
`least several times before?
`
` A A few times, yes.
`
` Q So I'm sure you're familiar with the
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`ground rules, but let's go through them real quick
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`anyhow.
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` E. Cole
` You understand you're here to testify and you've
`taken an you oath, the same oath you've taken before?
` A I do.
` Q Is there anything that would interfere
`with your ability to testify today? For example, are
`you on any medication or anything like that that would
`affect your ability to testify?
` A Okay. No. I am on medication but not
`that would impact my ability.
` Q Do you understand that the court reporter
`is here to transcribe everything you say?
` A Yes.
` Q And to make that easier for her, it would
`be helpful if you could provide only audible responses
`and try not to make any hand gestures or nod your head
`yes or no to questions.
` You understand that, right?
` A I do.
` Q And do you understand that it would be
`helpful to her if we don't talk over one another and let
`each other finish our sentences so she can transcribe
`what we say?
` A Yes.
` Q If at any point my questions are unclear
`
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`USR Exhibit 2015, Page 2
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`to you, will you let me know rather than just taking a
`wild guess?
` A Yes, I will.
` Q Great. So if I ask you a question and
`you answer it, I'm going to assume that you understood
`my question correctly. Is that fair?
` A That is fair.
` Q All right. If at any point you want to
`take a break, just let me know. I do ask that, if we're
`in the middle of a question, though, that we get an
`answer to it first and then we can take a break after
`that. Sounds good?
` A Of course, I will let you know when I
`need a break well within 10 or 15 minutes so you can
`break when it's convenient.
` Q Okay. Perfect. All right. So you can
`follow these rules for me, right?
` A Yes, I can.
` Q Okay. Did you speak with anyone to help
`you prepare for this deposition?
` A Yes, I did.
` Q Who did you speak to?
` A With Michelle and with Jason from
`Erise IP.
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` E. Cole
` Q Okay. Approximately how many hours would
`you say you spent speaking to them about preparing for
`this deposition?
` I'm sure you didn't take, you know, detailed
`records of it. But just roughly speaking, was it a day?
`Was it more than a day? Less than a day?
` A It was multiple one- to two-hour sessions
`over a few days.
` Q Okay.
` A So I'm guessing a total of maybe eight to
`ten hours.
` Q Got it. And did you review any documents
`to prepare for this deposition?
` A Yes, I did.
` MS. CALLAGHAN: I would just counsel
`that -- not to reveal any privileged communications
`between you and counsel.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Thanks.
`BY MR. MESSERIAN:
` Q Sorry. You said you reviewed some
`document, right, to prepare for this deposition?
` A Yes.
` Q What -- what sort of documents did you
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`review?
` A I reviewed my two reports that I wrote
`and the patents.
` Q Okay. Prior art patents as well, Maes,
`Labrou, Gullman, Weiss?
` A Correct.
` Q So you mentioned you prepared a couple of
`reports.
` One of those reports was in support of
`Petitioner's Reply to Patent Owner Response, and the
`other one was in support of Petitioner's Opposition to
`Motion to Amend; is that right?
` A That sounds correct, yes.
` Q Did you prepare these declaration -- or
`these reports, or defendant's counsel prepare them for
`you and you reviewed them for accuracy?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Same objection as
`before -- or same counsel as before.
` A I worked with counsel on preparing them,
`so I wrote sections. We did talk and discuss various
`aspects of it, but all of the opinions in the report are
`my opinions.
` Q Okay. So you're familiar with everything
`in there? You understand them, right?
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` A Yes. I don't have them memorized, but I
`am familiar with everything in my report.
` Q Of course. Okay.
` All right. So let's turn to some of these prior
`art references. In particular, I want to turn to Labrou
`first.
` A Okay.
` MR. MESSERIAN: All right. So I'd like
`to mark U.S. Patent Publication 2004/0107170, which is
`the Labrou reference, as Exhibit 1 in this deposition.
`The Labrou reference is Exhibit 1005 in the IPR.
` (Exhibit 1, U.S. Patent
` Publication 2004/0107170, was
` marked for identification.)
` BY MR. MESSERIAN:
` Q Is that the Labrou reference there? Does
`that look like the one you reviewed?
` A Yes, it does.
` Q All right. When's the last time you
`reviewed this reference?
` A I'd have to go back and check. I mean, I
`briefly looked at it.
` Q Have you looked at it in the last week?
` A I went through my report in the last week
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`USR Exhibit 2015, Page 3
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` E. Cole
`and looked at everything in the report.
` Q Okay.
` A I might have glanced. But in going
`through it in detail, it might have sometime over the
`last month when I worked on the report.
` Q Okay. Nevertheless, would you say you've
`spent sufficient time reviewing Labrou so that you have
`a good understanding generally what it teaches?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Yes. So in putting together my reports,
`I reviewed the Labrou patent.
` Q All right. Could you please turn to
`paragraph 527.
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` Q It's on page 30.
` Could you please read the first several
`sentences -- the first four or five sentences.
` A Which paragraph?
` Q 527.
` A 527.
` (Witness complies with request.)
` Q Is it fair to say that Labrou there
`describes how a random sequence number, RSN, is
`generated using a pseudorandom sequence number
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` E. Cole
`function R?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A I believe you're referring to the first
`sentence, "The RSN is a pseudorandom number that is
`generated from a locally stored pseudorandom sequence
`number function R."
` Q Great. All right. Does Labrou also
`describe any input to that function R?
` A If you go down about four or five lines,
`it says, "Typically, the generation of a pseudorandom
`number also involves another parameter, a seed S. The
`seed S is used as the initial input parameter for the
`generator R to generate its first pseudorandom number
`output."
` Q Great. So it uses initial seed value S,
`input into a function R, and it generates the RSN;
`right?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A That is my understanding from reading
`paragraph 527.
` Q Great. All right. Could you please read
`the rest of 527 if you haven't read the entire thing.
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` Q Based on what you just read, would you
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` E. Cole
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`deterministically locate the same pseudorandom function
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`generated function R and the corresponding pseudorandom
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` E. Cole
`agree that the function R and the original seed value S
`are stored at the agreement AP party -- agreement party,
`AP party?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A I believe you're referencing each AP
`device as its own R and S, which are securely stored on
`the device and at the AVP.
` Q All right. So Labrou, at least in this
`paragraph, talks about storing that original seed
`value S at the agreement party device.
` But does it also say anything about where that
`seed S is obtained or derived?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Specifically in paragraph 527, it does
`not look like it provides details on where S is
`generated.
` Q Okay. Fair enough. This paragraph also
`talks a little bit about the device identifier, DID.
` What does Labrou there say a verification
`server, AVP, agreement verification party, does with
`that device identifier, DID, value?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A "On the AVP, given the DID of an AP
`device by which an RSN is generated, a program can
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`number generation seed S for that device from the user
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`and device database containing information about all
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`issued devices."
`
` Q Okay. So based on that and based on rest
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`of paragraph 527 that you just read, regarding the
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`device identifier, DID, does Labrou there say anything
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`about that device identifier, DID, being used to derive
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`or obtain the original seed value S?
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` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
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` A Specifically, in paragraph 527, it just
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`talks about locating the corresponding pseudorandom
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`generation seed S. It does not provide specific details
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`of how this is generated.
`
` Q Okay. Fair enough. To your knowledge
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`and understanding -- this is a huge reference -- do you
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`remember or do you recall any other portion of Labrou
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`discussing how that original seed value S is derived or
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`specifically it being derived from a DID?
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` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
`
` A I would have to go back and look at my
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`reports. I don't have those memorized, so I would have
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`to go back and look to verify that.
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`value.
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` So what they're doing here is they're taking the
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`hash function and applying it to the two-argument
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`function F, apply it to the locally generated RSN in the
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`PIE input by the user to create a single output or a
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`single argument.
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` Q Very well said. That two-argument
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`function, does Labrou give any examples of what that
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`function could be?
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` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
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` A Specifically, in paragraphs 537 and 538,
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`I do not see Labrou give any specific examples of
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`functionality.
`
` Q Okay. At the bottom of 538, could you
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`read that last sentence starting with "The function."
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` A "The function can be any known function,
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`such as a function that appends the PIE string to the
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`RSN string or XORs the PIE and the RSN."
`
` Q Okay. So would you then agree that that
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`two-argument function F, here Labrou talks about how you
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` Q Okay. Fair enough. Let's move on.
` Actually, before we move on, let's talk a little
`bit more about that seed that we were just talking
`about, that original seed value S.
` Does it say anything about it being fixed, or
`does it vary in time? Does it say anything about that?
` A Specifically, in paragraph 527, I do not
`see any reference to the seed, I mean, being fixed. But
`that's only specific to paragraph 527. I would need to
`look through my reports to completely answer that, but I
`can reference it specifically in 527.
` Q All right. Could you please go and flip
`a couple pages and read paragraphs 537 and 538.
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` Q Can you, in your own words, explain to me
`what's discussed in those two paragraphs.
` A And just to confirm, paragraph 537 and
`538?
` Q That's right.
` A A hash function is a type of
`cryptographic function that performs what you call a
`one-way transformation. So it's saying that it's
`difficult to invert -- is once you create the hash, it's
`difficult, with the hash, to get back the original
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` E. Cole
`difficult to invert the output to get back the input,
`right? Or if you want to say it in your own words
`again...
` A I would agree with that --
` Q Okay.
` A -- definition.
` Q What is the output of that hash function
`in this case?
` A The output is a single argument,
`typically a string, in order to create the encryption
`key K.
` Q Okay. And below that, we have an
`equation, K=H(F)(PIE, RSN).
` So K there is the encryption key K, right, in
`that formula?
` A Yes.
` Q So the output of that hash function is
`the encryption key K. Is that fair to say?
` A Yes.
` Q If I gave you that encryption key K after
`it's been hashed and generated and then I gave it to
`you, could you somehow take that key, apply the PIE
`value to it somehow, and reversibly determine what the
`other argument was, the RSN value?
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`could use an XOR operation as that function?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. You mentioned earlier that a
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`cryptographic one-way hash function makes it very
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` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A I just want to make sure. Are you saying
`that, if I take the output of the hash and give it one
`of the several inputs, would I be able to figure out the
`other inputs?
` Q That's correct. That's my question.
` A Okay. With a hash function, typically
`no. That's the point of doing a one-way transformation.
` Q All right. At this point, let's move on
`past the Labrou reference. I think we're going to come
`back to this a little bit later, so we can keep it
`somewhere handy.
` MR. MESSERIAN: All right. Next I'd
`like to mark U.S. Patent 6,016,476, which is the Maes
`reference, as Exhibit 2 in this deposition. The Maes
`reference is Exhibit 1003 in the IPR.
` (Exhibit 2, U.S. Patent
` 6,016,476, was marked for
` identification.)
` BY MR. MESSERIAN:
` Q Is this the Maes here that I'm handing
`you now that you're familiar with?
` A Yes.
` Q Same question as before: When was the
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`last time you reviewed this? Do you recall?
` A It would be within the last month --
` Q Okay.
` A -- in working on the two reports and also
`in prepping for this deposition.
` Q Great. So would you say you've spent
`sufficient time reviewing Maes so that you have a good
`understanding of what it teaches?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Yes, I do.
` Q All right. Can you please take a look at
`Figure 1.
` What does Figure 1 show?
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` Figure 1 is a block diagram illustrating
`elements of a portable information and
`transaction-processing device, according to an
`embodiment of the present invention.
` Q Okay. Where did you read that? What
`paragraph?
` A That was Column 4, line 25, under
`Figure 1, "Brief Description of the Drawings."
` Q Okay. If you step down a little bit on
`that same column, starting with line 65, just give that
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`a quick read. The first sentence should do it.
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` Q Is it fair to say that what we're looking
`at there in Figure 1 is a portable digital assistant PDA
`device?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Yes. It illustrates elements of the
`portable information and transaction processing device.
` Q But could it be specifically a PDA?
` A At the bottom of column 4, it says,
`referring initially to Figure 1, "a block diagram
`illustrating the elements of a portable information and
`transaction process device, PDA device, according to
`embodiment." So that could be example.
` Q Looking at Figure 1, does the PDA include
`a central processing unit, a CPU?
` A You asked if it includes a CPU?
` Q Yes. What modules does that CPU include?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A I'm looking at the top of paragraph --
`sorry -- of column 5. "The heart of the device is a
`central processing unit, CPU, which controls the
`operations of the PDA device via a program stored in
`memory and executed by the CPU. Specifically, the CPU
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`includes an acoustic processing module for processing
`voice commands inputted into the PDA device through a
`microphone.
` "The acoustic processor module is also
`used for performing local speaker verification. The CPU
`also includes a digital processor module for processing
`a digital certificate obtained in the client/server mode
`of operation (to be discussed in detail below) and a
`biometric processor module for processing biometric data
`in addition to or alternative to voice data to provide
`user verification.
` "The CPU includes an
`encryptor/decryptor module for encrypting the personal
`and financial information before being stored in memory
`and for decrypting such information when accessed by the
`user.
` "Although the illustrated embodiment
`herein shows the CPU compromising the digital
`certificate module, the encrypter/decrypter module, the
`acoustic processor module, and the biometric processor
`module, it is to be understood that such modules may
`also be implemented as special-purpose modules, each
`having a processor, associated memory, and stored
`programs for performing such functions."
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` Q That's great. Thank you. Can you please
`turn to column 11. Let's talk a little bit more about
`that encryptor/decryptor module that you just discussed.
` Column 11, about halfway down, starting at
`line 27, could you read that paragraph, please.
` A To myself or out loud?
` Q Either way, whichever helps you
`understand it better, because I'm going to ask you
`questions about that paragraph. So if it helps you to
`read it out loud, you can do that. Otherwise, you can
`read it to yourself, whatever you prefer.
` A Okay.
` Q All right. Based on what you just read
`and also the paragraph you had read prior to that, is it
`fair to say that the encryptor/decryptor module 24
`performs encryption and decryption?
` A The purpose of the encryptor/decryptor
`module is to encrypt and decrypt information.
` Q Okay. Now, based on what you read there,
`does Maes describe what specific encryption/decryption
`algorithm that encryptor/decryptor module 24 uses?
` A With regard to that paragraph, it does
`not list a specific encryption or decryption module, but
`there are many well-known ones that can be supported by
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`this fact.
` Q Okay. Do you recall -- strike that.
` Based on what you just read, does Maes expressly
`state that the encryption protocol that may be used by
`that encryptor/decryptor is particularly computationally
`taxing?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A In that specific paragraph, Maes does not
`talk about the performance or whether there's more
`taxing on the CPU than others in that paragraph.
` Q Outside of that paragraph, is there any
`other portion of Maes that you read through in preparing
`your reports or just generally as you were reviewing
`Maes that gave you the sense or would give a person of
`ordinary skill in the art the sense that the
`encryptor/decryptor was using an encryption or
`decryption algorithm that was particularly
`computationally intensive and taxing on the CPU?
` A I would have to go back through the
`patent and look at my reports more closely. Like I
`said, I prepared but I didn't memorize what was in all
`of those reports.
` Q Fair enough. All right. That paragraph
`that you read also discusses an encryption key.
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` Can you tell me a little bit about that
`encryption key.
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A It uses an encryption key that is unique
`to the PDA device.
` Q Does it say anything else about the key?
` A In that paragraph, I just see it
`referencing using the encryption key that you need to
`the PDA device.
` Q Okay. Does Maes explain there how that
`key was generated?
` A In that specific paragraph, I do not see
`him stating how the key is generated.
` Q So then is it fair to say that, since it
`doesn't discuss, at least in that paragraph, how the key
`was generated, that it also doesn't describe or discuss
`generation of that key being particularly
`computationally intensive or taxing on the CPU?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Once again, in regard to just that
`paragraph, that is not stated. I would need to look at
`my reports or go through the entire patent to answer
`that completely.
` But with regard to that one paragraph,
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`it does not talk about anything taxing with regard to
`the key.
` Q Okay. All right. Could you turn to
`column 13 and read lines 19 to 38.
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` I'm done.
` Q Was there any discussion in what you just
`read about an encrypted information file?
` A Well, around line 30, it talks about an
`encrypted file containing unique identifying information
`pertaining to the consumer.
` Q Does Maes also say anything about that
`encrypted file -- encrypted information file, sorry,
`that includes unique identifying information pertaining
`to the consumer? Does it say anything about that being
`transmitted out from the PDA device to somewhere else?
` A Around line 34, "The selected card
`information, as well as the encrypted information file,
`would be transmitted to the POS terminal via the
`universal card, RF or IR, and then transmitted in
`encrypted form directly to the processing financial
`institution together with the purchase details."
` Q And as we previously -- as you previously
`stated, the encrypted information file there may contain
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`unique -- it says, "unique identifying information
`pertaining to the consumer, including but not limited to
`such as consumer's name and account number."
` Is that right?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Yes. That's what's stated around line
`30, that paragraph.
` Q All right. Could we go back to the
`Labrou reference, particularly paragraph 487.
` All right. Why don't you give that paragraph a
`read for us, please.
` A Just to confirm, 487?
` Q That's right. Thank you.
` A (Witness complies with request.)
` Q What does Labrou mean when it says there,
`"The secret value, or the stored parameters, or the key
`are never transmitted in a message"? Line --
` A I see it.
` Q Okay.
` A There's no line --
` Q That's right. I was looking at Maes
`there.
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A What that's saying is that the secret
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`value, or the actual key itself, is not actually
`transmitted in an actual message.
` Q Okay.
` A That the key is actually protected.
` Q What can you tell me about that secret
`value? What is it?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` Q Strike that. Let me ask you this: The
`second sentence that starts with "The algorithm," is it
`fair to say that that secret value is input by the user
`and, therefore, it's known to the user?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Yes. The shared secret information is
`input by the user; and, therefore, the user would have
`to know that information.
` Q Does it sound like that secret value may
`be a personal identification number, a PIN?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` Q Is that what one of ordinary skill in the
`art may -- may assume when they think that secret value
`is --
` A That could be an example --
` Q Okay.
` A -- of a secret value.
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` Q And about halfway down that paragraph, it
`says, "The set of stored parameters is preferably known
`only to the device and the verification party."
` Would you say that, based on that, Labrou is
`emphasizing the sensitivity of that data?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Well, it states, "The set of stored
`parameters is preferably known only to the device and
`the verification party, but if generally known are not
`sufficient to determine the key without knowledge of the
`shared secret value."
` Q Okay. So going back to Maes, the
`encrypted information file we just talked about included
`user-identifying information like an account number;
`right?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A Yes. That's some of the information
`included.
` Q And that account number is being
`transmitted out of that client device to the
`point-of-sale device and also the financial institution
`wirelessly; is that right?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A And in Maes, which paragraphs do you want
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`me --
` Q Maes was column 13, lines 19 to 38.
`Roughly about halfway down, it starts talking about the
`encrypted information file. At the end, it should say
`something about it being transmitted out.
` A So the selected card information as well
`as the encrypted information file would be transmitted
`to the POS terminal, and that could be via a universal
`card, RF, or IR.
` Q So in summary, Maes talks about sending
`out unique identifying user information, like an account
`number, out from that device out wirelessly to the point
`of sale as it may be; is that right?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A In encrypted form, it sends that
`information.
` Q Okay. So going back to Labrou, we've got
`certain types of information like the secret value, the
`key. And as it says -- as it -- "stored parameters that
`are preferably known only to the device and the AVP."
` It says that it should never be transmitted; is
`that right?
` MS. CALLAGHAN: Objection. Form.
` A I think we're talking about two different
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`pieces of information.
` In Labrou, it's talking about the actual user
`secret would never be transmitted. And then in Maes,
`it's talking about the account information that's
`encrypted that's transmitted.
` Q Okay. Do you think a person of ordinary
`skill in the art, in light of these two teachings, in
`light of these