UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
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`:
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` UNIFIED PATENTS,
` INC.,
`
`: :
`
` v.
`
`Petitioner,
`
`: Case IPR 2018-00044
`:
`: Patent No. 7,302,423 B2
`:
` VILOX TECHNOLOGIES, :
` LLC,
`:
`:
`Patent Owner. :
`:
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`Tuesday, June 19, 2018
`Washington, D.C.
`
`Deposition of:
`
`DR. INGRID HSIEH-YEE,
`called for oral examination by counsel for the
`Patent Owner, pursuant to notice, at the law
`offices of Haynes & Boone, LLP, 800 17th Street,
`Northwest, Suite 500, Washington, D.C. 20006,
`before Christina S. Hotsko, RPR, CRR, of Veritext
`Legal Solutions, a Notary Public in and for the
`District of Columbia, beginning at 9:59 a.m., when
`were present on behalf of the respective parties:
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 1 of 93
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`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`:
`:
`
` UNIFIED PATENTS,
` INC.,
`
`: :
`
` v.
`
`Petitioner,
`
`: Case IPR 2018-00044
`:
`: Patent No. 7,302,423 B2
`:
` VILOX TECHNOLOGIES, :
` LLC,
`:
`:
`Patent Owner. :
`:
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`Tuesday, June 19, 2018
`Washington, D.C.
`
`Deposition of:
`
`DR. INGRID HSIEH-YEE,
`called for oral examination by counsel for the
`Patent Owner, pursuant to notice, at the law
`offices of Haynes & Boone, LLP, 800 17th Street,
`Northwest, Suite 500, Washington, D.C. 20006,
`before Christina S. Hotsko, RPR, CRR, of Veritext
`Legal Solutions, a Notary Public in and for the
`District of Columbia, beginning at 9:59 a.m., when
`were present on behalf of the respective parties:
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Exhibit 2013 / Page 1 of 93
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`Page 2
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`O n b e h a l f o f P e t i t i o n e r :
`
` S C O T T C U N N I N G , E S Q U I R E
`
` J O E Y B L A K E
`
` H a y n e s & B o o n e , L L P
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` 8 0 0 1 7 t h S t r e e t , N o r t h w e s t , S u i t e 5 0 0
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` W a s h i n g t o n , D . C . 2 0 0 0 6
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` ( 2 0 2 ) 6 5 4 - 4 5 0 0
`
`O n b e h a l f o f P a t e n t O w n e r :
`
` C E C I L E . K E Y , E S Q U I R E
`
` D i M u r o G i n s b e r g , P C
`
` 1 7 5 0 T y s o n s B o u l e v a r d , S u i t e 1 5 0 0
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` T y s o n s C o r n e r , V i r g i n i a 2 2 1 0 2
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` ( 7 0 3 ) 2 8 9 - 5 1 1 8
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 2 of 93
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`Page 3
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` C O N T E N T S
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`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`
` Counsel for Patent Owner 04
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` Counsel for Petitioner 71
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`FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
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` Counsel for Patent Owner 74
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`HSIEH-YEE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: * PAGE
`
` Exhibit 2008 Hsieh-Yee Notice of 05
`
` Deposition
`
` Exhibit 2009 Hsieh-Yee CV 08
`
` Exhibit 2010 Appendix AAAA of 45
`
` Hsieh-Yee Expert Report
`
` Exhibit 2011 Appendix BBBB of 45
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` Hsieh-Yee Expert Report
`
` Exhibit 2012 Appendix CCCC of 51
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` Hsieh-Yee Expert Report
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` * (Exhibits attached to transcript.)
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 3 of 93
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`Page 4
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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`Whereupon,
`
` DR. INGRID HSIEH-YEE,
`
`being first duly sworn or affirmed to testify to
`
`the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
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`truth, was examined and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
`
`BY MR. KEY:
`
` Q. Good morning.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. Can you please state your full name for
`
`the record.
`
` A. My full name is Ingrid Hsieh -- would you
`
`like me talking to her or to you?
`
` Q. I don't mind.
`
` A. Ingrid Hsieh-Yee.
`
` Q. Can you also please state your address
`
`for the record.
`
` A. 1024 Harbor Drive, Annapolis, Maryland,
`
`21403.
`
` Q. Dr. Hsieh-Yee, I'm going to show you
`
`what's being marked as Exhibit 2008.
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 4 of 93
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` (Hsieh-Yee Deposition Exhibit 2008 marked
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` for identification and attached to the
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`Page 5
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` transcript.)
`
`BY MR. KEY:
`
` Q. And once you've had a chance to look at
`
`that, my question for you, Dr. Hsieh-Yee, is have
`
`you ever seen this document before?
`
` A. Yes. 2018. Oh, prior today? Oh, this
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`is the first time I see this.
`
` Q. Exhibit 2008 is titled Patent Owner's
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`Notice of Deposition of Dr. Hsieh-Yee.
`
` Do you see that on the first page?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you understand that you're appearing
`
`here today pursuant to this notice?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Have you ever been deposed before,
`
`Dr. Hsieh-Yee?
`
` A. A number of years ago.
`
` Q. How many years ago?
`
` A. I have to check. I think it's probably
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`2015, but I have to check.
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`Page 6
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` Q. Do you recall what the matter was in
`
`which you were last deposed?
`
` A. No, sorry.
`
` Q. So it's been a while. I'll go over a
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`couple of housekeeping instructions.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. And if you have any questions about
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`these, let me know.
`
` As you probably know from your prior
`
`experience and as you can see, we have a court
`
`reporter here who's going to take down all my
`
`questions and all your answers.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. So a couple of rules there. We want to
`
`try not to talk over each other. If you'll please
`
`let me finish my question before you answer, I
`
`will also try to let you finish your answer before
`
`I ask another question.
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` Also, to respond using words, spoken
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`words, not nods or other sounds.
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` If there's a question I ask you don't
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`understand, feel free to let me know. To the
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`extent I can rephrase it or clarify it, I'll try
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`to do so.
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` If you need a break, you can just ask for
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`one. I'm not sure how long we'll have to be here
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`today, but if you do need a break, feel free to
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`ask. I only ask that if there's a question
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`pending, we try and get the question answered
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`before we take the break.
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` Any questions about those basic
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`housekeeping rules?
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` A. That's clear.
`
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
`
` A. Thank you.
`
` Q. Now, Dr. Hsieh-Yee, are you on any
`
`medications that would prevent you from testifying
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`fully and completely today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Is there any other reason -- any medical
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`conditions, for example -- that would prevent you
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`from testifying fully and completely today?
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` A. No.
`
` Q. Are you employed, Dr. Hsieh-Yee?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. By whom?
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` A. Catholic University.
`
` Q. And how long have you been employed by
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`Catholic University?
`
` A. Since 1990.
`
` MR. KEY: I'm going to have marked as
`
`Exhibit 2009 a document that's pages 17 through 37
`
`of Exhibit 1011.
`
` (Hsieh-Yee Deposition Exhibit 2009 marked
`
` for identification and attached to the
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` transcript.)
`
`BY MR. KEY:
`
` Q. And Dr. Hsieh-Yee, I'll ask you to take a
`
`look at what's been marked as Exhibit 2009 and
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`tell me if you can identify that document.
`
` A. Yes. It is my CV.
`
` Q. And this is the CV that was also
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`Appendix A to your report; is that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. When was this CV prepared?
`
` A. I will have to check the exact date, the
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`Page 9
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`file date, but it should be prepared roughly at
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`the time that I submitted this deposition.
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` Q. To the best of your knowledge, have there
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`been any significant updates to your CV since the
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`time you submitted your declaration?
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` A. Many presentations and conferences.
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` Q. I see.
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` A. And new university responsibilities,
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`serving on various committees.
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` Q. And to clarify, the serving on various
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`committees, that's happened since you last --
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`well, since you submitted your declaration in this
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`matter?
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` A. Added a few, because I've been at the
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`university for a long time. And so I think last
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`year, I got added to the Academic Senate. So
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`it's -- because that kind of position is reserved
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`for senior faculty. So...
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` Q. Has there been any additions to your work
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`experience since you submitted --
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` A. No.
`
` Q. -- your declaration?
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`Page 10
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` A. No.
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` Q. Apart from your position at Catholic
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`University, do you have any other employment?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Do you act as a consultant?
`
` A. That's what I was getting at is that I
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`had worked as a consultant.
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` Q. Do you work as a consultant in your
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`individual capacity, or is it through another
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`organization?
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` A. The former.
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` Q. Can you just briefly describe what type
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`of consulting you do?
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` A. Yes. The type of consulting work I do is
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`investigation research on bibliographic matters.
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`So typically, I receive an inquiry to say, you
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`know, we need to find some information about this
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`document. And I go and do some research, identify
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`records, and draw on my knowledge to -- of
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`cataloging practices and standards to help the
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`attorney interpret the records.
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` Q. I believe you said you help the attorney
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 10 of 93
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`Page 11
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`interpret the records. Is the consulting work you
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`do always on behalf of law firms?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In the last four years, about how many
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`consulting engagements have you done?
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` A. I'll have to look it up. In terms of
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`exact number, I'll have to look it up.
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` Q. Are those consulting engagements
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`reflected on your CV that is Exhibit 2009?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Do you have an estimation of about how
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`many consulting engagements you've done in the
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`last four years?
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` A. It's hard to estimate. I have to look at
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`the record.
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` Q. Have any of those consulting arrangements
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`involved a case involving patents?
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` A. I think all the cases involve patents.
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` Q. Maybe we'll try to break it down. Apart
`
`from this matter, how many consulting engagements
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`involving patents have you done in the last year?
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` A. As I indicated earlier, that I will have
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 11 of 93
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`to check my record.
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` Q. Apart from this matter and subject to any
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`privilege that you may need to maintain, because
`
`I'm not looking for that, what was the last
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`engagement that you worked on that involved
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`patents?
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` A. You mean -- are you referring to the date
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`or the law firm or --
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` Q. That's a fair question. We'll break it
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`down.
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` A. Yeah.
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` Q. I'll ask as to date.
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` A. The date? If you need a precise date,
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`I'll have to look it up. But if you want to have
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`approximate time frame, which month or -- I can
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`provide that.
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` Q. Let's start with which month.
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` A. Which month? June. This month.
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` Q. This month?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Is that an ongoing matter that you just
`
`started working on?
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 12 of 93
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` A. That one case is already concluded. I'm
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`referring to that case that's concluded.
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` Q. Can you -- do you know who the parties
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`are in that case?
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` A. Am I allowed to say that? I thought --
`
` Q. If it's concluded, I believe, but --
`
` A. No, I mean we submitted the declaration.
`
` Q. I see.
`
` A. Yeah. But I don't know what the next
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`steps would be. So...
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` Q. And I don't want to violate any
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`confidentiality.
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` So you believe that the declaration you
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`submitted might be confidential?
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` A. I have to check with those attorneys.
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. Yes. Because my job is to prepare the
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`documents and let him take care of the next steps.
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` Q. All right.
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` A. Yeah.
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` Q. And you said that matter involved
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`patents?
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 13 of 93
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`Page 14
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you know what court or agency the
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`matter is pending in? Is it the District Court or
`
`the Patent Office, for example?
`
` A. I think it's the Patent Office.
`
` Q. Can you tell me the law firm that engaged
`
`you for that matter?
`
` THE WITNESS: Is that appropriate? Can
`
`we say that? I'm sorry. I'm not sure about --
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` MR. CUNNING: Why don't we do this. Why
`
`don't we take a quick break, and we'll just pull
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`and see if it's filed. If it's already public,
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`then we can -- then I can let her answer all these
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`questions. If it's confidential, it's not been
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`filed, we may need to maintain confidentiality.
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` MR. KEY: That's fine.
`
` MR. CUNNING: So we'll just take a few
`
`minutes.
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` MR. KEY: Sure.
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` (A recess was taken.)
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` THE WITNESS: So we checked the system,
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`and Mr. Cunning told me that the declaration has
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 14 of 93
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`Page 15
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`been filed.
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` MR. KEY: Okay.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. KEY:
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` Q. Can you tell me who the parties are in
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`the matter in which the declaration has been
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`filed?
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` A. I remember we are representing Jaguar.
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` Q. Do you recall where the matter has been
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`filed? If you recall.
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` A. I don't recall.
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` Q. And again to clarify, the matter involves
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`patents; is that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Can you tell me the name of the law firm
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`that engaged you for that matter?
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` A. Yes. It's Latham & Watkins.
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` Q. Is the Jaguar matter that you
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`mentioned -- in the Jaguar matter that you
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`mentioned, did you submit an expert report?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. In the last four years, do you know how
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 15 of 93
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`many expert reports you have submitted?
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` A. As I indicated earlier, I have done a lot
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`so I have to look at the record to give you the
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`number.
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` Q. Maybe it'll help me out. To the best of
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`your knowledge, for all the consulting engagements
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`you've done in the last four years, have you
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`submitted an expert report?
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` A. Like the one for Jaguar?
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` Q. Correct.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Maybe asked another way, as far as you
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`recall, are there any consulting engagements for
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`which you did not submit an expert report?
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` A. I have to check.
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` Q. Other than today, have you testified as
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`an expert in the last four years?
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` A. Going back to 2015? As I indicated
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`earlier, I think there might be once. I really
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`had one deposition experience, and that might have
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`taken place in 2015. But I have to check to
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`confirm the time.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 16 of 93
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` Q. Did that matter in which you were deposed
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`Page 17
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`involve patents?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Did it involve any opinion you were
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`giving as to the bibliographic data about a
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`publication?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Maybe to clarify, were you testifying as
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`an expert in that case?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. I want to ask you to look at
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`Exhibit 2009. And my question is, is the
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`testimony as an expert, is that listed on
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`Exhibit 2009?
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` A. No, because this is an academic resume.
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` Q. And I'm going to show you what's already
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`been submitted in this matter as Exhibit 1011.
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` Can you tell us what Exhibit 1011 is?
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` A. Yes. This one, this file includes my
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`declaration and supporting documents.
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` Q. Is the testimony as an expert that you
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`mentioned, approximately 2015, is that listed
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 17 of 93
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`Page 18
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`somewhere here in Exhibit 1011?
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` A. I don't believe so.
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` Q. Let's step back a second. Have you ever
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`worked for the Library of Congress?
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` A. No.
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` Q. I suppose I'll clarify. Have you ever
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`worked for the Library of Congress as an employee
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`of the Library of Congress?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you ever done any consulting work
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`for the Library of Congress?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you ever --
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` A. Oh --
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` Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you ever worked as an independent
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`contractor in which -- on a matter in which you
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`were engaged by the Library of Congress?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you ever worked for Wayne State
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`University as an employee?
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 18 of 93
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you ever done any consulting work
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`for Wayne State University?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you ever been engaged as an
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`independent contractor by Wayne State University?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Looking at Exhibit 1011, I direct your
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`attention to page 2.
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` A. Page 2?
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` Q. Yes, ma'am. In paragraph 2.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. The first sentence reads, I'll read into
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`the record, "I am being compensated for my work in
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`this matter at my accustomed hourly rate of $160."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What is meant by "accustomed rate"?
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` A. At that time, that's the rate I used with
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`law firms when I do consulting work for them.
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` Q. Do you know who Unified Patents, Inc.,
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`is?
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 19 of 93
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`Page 20
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` A. I actually only know it by name.
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` Q. Have you -- other than this matter, have
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`you ever done any consulting work for Unified
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`Patents, Inc.?
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` A. No. That was -- actually, this is the
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`first time.
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` Q. For what purpose did you prepare your
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`declaration that's Exhibit 1011?
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` A. For 1011, I worked with the attorney
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`because we wanted to establish the first
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`availability of this book by Walkenbach.
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` Q. I'll show you what was previously marked
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`as Exhibit 1009.
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` I believe you said you wanted to
`
`establish the first availability of "this book."
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` A. Uh-huh.
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` Q. By "this book," did you mean the document
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`that's marked as Exhibit 1009?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And for the record, can you tell us what
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`Exhibit 1009 is?
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` A. 1009 includes the pages that I personally
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 20 of 93
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`
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`scanned at the Library of Congress.
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` Q. And on the first page, the title appears
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`to be "Microsoft Excel 2000 Bible."
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`Page 21
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. If I refer to this as the Excel Bible,
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`will you understand what I mean?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. All right. If there's another term you
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`want me to use, I'm happy to do that, too.
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` Does Exhibit 1009 represent all the pages
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`of the Excel Bible?
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` A. No.
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` Q. And you said you personally scanned these
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`pages?
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` A. Yes. I visited the Library of Congress
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`and used this book. So when I have the book, I
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`scanned it there.
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` Q. Why did you go to the Library of Congress
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`to scan this book?
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` A. So when we started to do the research, I
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`identified Library of Congress as one of the
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 21 of 93
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`Page 22
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`libraries that hold this book. Because the
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`Library of Congress is the best authority, the
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`highly -- the most respected authority for
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`bibliographic record, so I thought I should take a
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`look at this one.
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` And I did apply -- checked their
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`catalogue. It confirms the holding information.
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`So I then requested it. And then once the book
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`arrived, I went to make the copy. Because the
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`Library of Congress books are not circulating, you
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`cannot take them out of the library unless you
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`have some other different agreement. But the
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`general public cannot check out the book from
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`Library of Congress so that's why I scanned the
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`pages.
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` Q. Who determined which pages would be
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`scanned?
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` A. I checked with the attorney, and he
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`consulted the technical expert, and they specified
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`the pages that are relevant for the case.
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` Q. So you didn't have any input in
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`determining which pages would be scanned?
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 22 of 93
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` A. No.
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` Q. To the extent you know, what issue does
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`this document pertain to in this case?
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`Page 23
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` A. What issue?
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` Q. Yes.
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` A. I think it's a patent case.
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` Q. Beyond being related to a patent case, do
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`you have any understanding of what specific issue
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`it pertains to?
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` A. I do not know the nature of the case.
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`It's -- I focus on the documents and the records
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`needed.
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` Q. In terms of your opinion, if I understand
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`you correctly, and please correct me if I don't,
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`your opinion is as to the availability of the
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`publication, that's Exhibit 1009; is that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Was there any other opinion that you were
`
`asked to offer?
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` A. No. The focus is on this book and its
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`public availability.
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` Q. I believe you mentioned that -- a couple
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 23 of 93
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`Page 24
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`times you used the word "we" in terms of you
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`started doing research.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Was there someone else?
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` A. No, it's the attorney. I always consult
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`him, and I told him this is what I have
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`discovered. That's why I say "we," because it's a
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`teamwork.
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` Q. I see. But to clarify, you didn't have
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`anyone else assisting you at your direction?
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` A. No. Just me. Yes.
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` Q. How much time did you spend on the
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`research that's reflected in your report?
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` A. I have to check. I can look it up for
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`you in terms of how many hours and things.
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` Q. Do you have an approximation?
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` A. This was done last October, right? I
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`think. Sorry, I --
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` Q. I'll break it down. And I'm not talking
`
`about writing of the opinions so take that -- put
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`that aside. I'm just talking about the amount of
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`time you spent to research the facts that you
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 24 of 93
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`
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`Page 25
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`relied on in the opinion. Do you have any idea
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`how much time that was?
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` A. That, I'll have to check my record.
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` Q. Do you have any reason to believe that
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`the amount of time you spent was not a reasonable
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`amount of time?
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` A. I think it's reasonable. I always try my
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`best to be efficient and correct and accurate.
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`So...
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` Q. Were you given any time limits?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Then I take it that you had autonomy to
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`decide exactly how much time you wanted to spend?
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` A. You know, as consultant, even though you
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`have the autonomy, but you have to be reasonable,
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`right? And so I feel that I was using my judgment
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`as to what's appropriate. And if sometimes I feel
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`that this is a very complicated situation, it
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`takes longer, I will talk to the attorney and
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`explain and say, now, we need to do that, you
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`know.
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` So usually, in my work, I would -- in
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 25 of 93
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`Page 26
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`case it seems to be going to be taking a lot
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`longer or needs more effort for investigation,
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`then I'll let the attorney know, and we'll talk
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`about that.
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` But most -- I have to say so far, no
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`attorney has said, oh, don't do that. It costs
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`too much money. They say, get the truth.
`
` Q. Which is going to be my question here.
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`So no one told you don't do anymore work?
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` A. Right.
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` Q. You were allowed to do the work until you
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`felt it was complete, correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. I suppose I should clarify. Did you make
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`any recommendations as to further research that
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`were rejected?
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` A. No. In this case, it's very solid.
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`We've had very good data. So I said this is good.
`
` Q. Again, if we could look at Exhibit 1011,
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`I'm going to turn your attention to paragraph 26,
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`which is on page 16 of 70.
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` In paragraph 26, is this a synopsis of
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 26 of 93
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`Page 27
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`the opinions you are offering?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are there any other opinions that you
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`anticipate offering in this matter that are not
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`reflected in paragraph 26?
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` A. Paragraph 26 summarized the situation
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`very clearly to me, because the data support that.
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`And there are a number of dates -- a number of
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`data points we use. But this is the conclusion.
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` Q. And so you believe that these conclusions
`
`in paragraph 26 are supported by the evidence that
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`you have in your report?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And I also believe you mentioned you try
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`to be thorough in your analysis, correct?
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` A. Uh-huh. Yes, sorry. I need to verbalize
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`it.
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` Q. And as you sit here today, you're
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`comfortable that you were thorough?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Going back to your prior consulting work,
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`to clarify, have any of those matters involved
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 27 of 93
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`
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`your attempt to verify a date when a publication
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`Page 28
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`was available to the public?
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` A. Could you --
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` Q. I'll rephrase.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. In your prior consulting work, have any
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`of those matters involved your attempt to identify
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`when a work was accessible to the public?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Have all of those matters involved
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`attempts to determine when a publication is
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`accessible to the public?
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` A. I have to check, but I believe most cases
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`are related to these public availability
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`documents.
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` Q. Again looking at Exhibit 1011 -- and I'll
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`focus on paragraphs 3 and 4, which span 2 of 70 to
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`3 of 70.
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` Paragraph 3 identifies documents
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`referenced in preparation of your declaration,
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`correct?
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` A. Yes.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 28 of 93
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`Page 29
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` Q. Are there any documents that are not
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`listed in paragraph 3 that you referenced in the
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`preparation of your declaration?
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` A. Officially, these are the documents that
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`I include in the exhibit -- I mean, included as
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`appendices to support. But these records also
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`point to an earlier record. That's the original
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`record.
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` So if you look at the declaration, the
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`Exhibit 1011, you'll see it refers to the fact
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`that the Library of Congress's record is based on
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`a record created by another agency and that we did
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`not include that for some reasons.
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` But that's -- and that record was
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`created, I believe -- let me take a look. That
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`original record was dated October 16, 1998. Yeah.
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` So in my declaration, I did explain that
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`the LC's record is based on that earlier record,
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`but that earlier record is not included here.
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` Q. Do you have a copy of that earlier
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`record?
`
` A. That's a very good question. Here is the
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 29 of 93
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`
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`Page 30
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`reason: According to -- OCLC has this system for
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`libraries to share their records. So that
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`original record was created and dated. However,
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`when I went to look for that record, they no
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`longer have it because the book is dated, and it
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`is a community college. So they weeded it out,
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`and they replaced that with an earlier -- with a
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`later version, more current version.
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` So at that point, attorney and I said,
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`well, that original record, we wanted to use it to
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`say, look, it's available. It was done. The
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`cataloging record was done in October of 1998.
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` And according to the general standard --
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`fairly common library practice, the book would
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`have been available about a month after the
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`cataloging record was done, meaning November of
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`1998 would have been the time when that book was
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`available in the community college.
`
` But because that book no longer is in
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`their system, they weeded it out so we couldn't
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`use it.
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` And I say -- but we have a good record
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 30 of 93
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`
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`Page 31
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`here because the OCLC system, what it shows us is
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`that Library of Congress use the original record
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`as the basis, and then Library of Congress entered
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`the record into the system.
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` So -- and LC is the most authoritative
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`source for bibliographic data, so we thought we
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`can use LC's record to do that.
`
` Q. Okay. The record you're referring to, is
`
`it the Middlesex Community --
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` A. Right. County College, yeah.
`
` Q. Thank you. Middlesex County College?
`
` A. That's what it say. That's the symbol,
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`what the symbol represent is NNF. I think it's
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`Middlesex County College Library.
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` Q. When the Middlesex County College's
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`record was created, would Exhibit 1009 have had an
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`ISDN number?
`
` A. Exhibit 1009. Oh, this one. Would it
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`have an ISBN number?
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` Q. ISDN, yes.
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` A. ISBN, book number?
`
` Q. Yes.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2018-00044
`Exhibit 2013 / Page 31 of 93
`
`
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`Page 32
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` A. Yes, yes. Because the book was already
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`published, and it has that ISBN number assigned
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`already. As you can see on the page 5, on the
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`page 5 of Exhibit 1009, it
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