Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`
`1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` __________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL APPEAL BOARD
` __________________
` MODERNATX, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` vs.
` CUREVAC AG,
` Petitioner.
` ___________________
` Case IPR2017-02194
` Patent No. 8,383,340
` ____________________
` CONFIDENTIAL TRANSCRIPT
` DEPOSITION OF
` ALEXANDER SCHWENGER, Ph.D.
` Washington, D.C.
` Thursday, October 4, 2018
` 9:04 a.m.
`Job No. 44200
`Reported By: Donna A. Peterson
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`MTX1067
`ModernaTX, Inc. v. CureVac AG
`IPR2017-02194
`
`1
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`

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`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`4
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` A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
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` ALSO PRESENT: Dr. Anita Buck, CureVac
` Markus Conzelmann, Ph.D., CureVac
`
` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF ALEXANDER SCHWENGER, Ph.D. PAGE
` By Ms. Ellison 6
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`5
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` E X H I B I T S
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`MTX 1004 U.S. Patent No. 6,567,133 23
`MTX 1005 Journal article, Rigid polymerics: 23
` the future of oligonucleotide
` analysis and purification,
` Lloyd, et al., Journal of
` Chromatography A, 1009(2003)
` 223-230
`CureVac 2014 Declaration Of Alexander 9
` Schwenger, Ph.D.
`CureVac 2019 Curriculum Vitae, Dr. Rer. Nat. 10
` Alexander Schwenger
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` The Deposition of ALEXANDER SCHWENGER, Ph.D.,
`taken at the law offices of:
`
` CROWELL & MORING, LLP
` Boardroom, 11th Floor
` 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20004-2595
`
` Pursuant to Notice, before Donna A.
`Peterson, Notary Public in and for the District of
`Columbia.
`
`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS, MODERNATX, INC.:
` ELDORA LYNN ELLISON, Ph.D., ATTORNEY at LAW
` DAVID W. ROADCAP, Ph.D., ATTORNEY at LAW
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX, PLLC
` 1100 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` Telephone: (202) 772-8508
` eellison@skgf.com
` droadcap@sternekessler.com
`
` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER, CUREVAC AG:
` SHANNON LENTZ, ATTORNEY at LAW
` DEBORAH H. YELLIN, ATTORNEY at LAW
` CROWELL & MORING, LLP
` 11th Floor
` 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20004-2595
` Telephone: (202) 624-2500
` slentz@crowell.com
` dyellin@crowell.com
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`2
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`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`8
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`6
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`Thereupon,
` ALEXANDER SCHWENGER, Ph.D.,
`was called as a witness by counsel for Petitioner,
`Moderna Therapeutics, and having been duly sworn by
`the Notary Public, was examined and testified as
`follows:
` MS. ELLISON: Good morning.
` THE WITNESS: Good morning.
` MS. ELLISON: We're going to start with a
`roll call. I'm Eldora Ellison, from Sterne, Kessler,
`Goldstein and Fox, and I represent Moderna
`Therapeutics. Together with me today is my
`colleague, David Roadcap, also from Sterne, Kessler.
` MS. LENTZ: I'm Shannon Lentz, from
`Crowell and Moring, on behalf of CureVac. With me
`today is Debbie Yellin, from Crowell and Moring, and
`Anita Buck, from CureVac, and Markus Conzelmann, from
`CureVac.
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER, MODERNA
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Can you please state your name, for the
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`record.
` A. Alexander Schwenger.
` Q. Dr. Schwenger, have you been deposed
`before?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. We're going to go over some of the
`ground rules for today's deposition.
` A. Can you speak a little bit louder because
`this fan is very loud.
` Q. I'll try.
` I said I'm going to go over some of the
`ground rules for today's deposition. In general, my
`job today is to ask you questions and your job today
`is to answer my questions, unless Ms. Lentz instructs
`you not to answer.
` Now that this deposition has begun, the
`rules of the Patent Office prevent you from
`discussing the contents of this deposition or this
`case with attorneys for CureVac while we're on breaks
`today. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you understand that?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And as you can see, there's a court
`reporter who is writing down everything that we say,
`so it's important that you give your answers out
`loud, and I'll do the same. Okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. It's also important that we try not to
`speak over each other, since she can only transcribe
`what one of us is saying at a time. Okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If you have any questions or need any
`clarifications regarding my questions today, you can
`ask me for clarification. You cannot ask counsel for
`CureVac. Do you understand that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you agree to abide by that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is it fair that -- unless you ask me for
`clarification, is it fair that I can assume that you
`understood the question?
` A. Yes.
` Q. We'll take a number of breaks today. If,
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`9
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`at any time, you need a break, just ask me for one
`and I'll try to accommodate your request for a break,
`okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. But if there's a question that's pending,
`I will most likely ask you to answer the question
`before we take a break. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Thank you.
` We're going to hand you a copy of what has
`been marked as CureVac Exhibit 2014. Do you
`recognize the document that we just gave to you,
`which is Exhibit 2014?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is it?
` A. This is my declaration.
` Q. Okay. And do you understand that it's a
`declaration that you submitted in connection with an
`inter partes review proceeding?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you understand that it's an inter
`partes review on U.S. Patent Number 8,383,340?
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`3
`
`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`12
`
`10
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Is it okay with you if I refer to that as
`the "'340 patent"?
` A. It's okay.
` Q. Can you please turn to page 23 of Exhibit
`2014.
` Is that your signature on page 23 of
`Exhibit 2014?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And when did you sign Exhibit 2014?
` A. At the 18-7-2018.
` Q. So is that July 18, 2018?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` We are also going to hand you a copy of
`what has been marked as Exhibit 2019. Do you
`recognize Exhibit 2019?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is it?
` A. This is my vitae.
` Q. Are there any errors on your CV that's
`been provided as Exhibit 2019?
`
`11
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` A. No.
` Q. Are there any errors in your declaration
`that's been provided as Exhibit 2014?
` A. There's one typical [sic] mistake on one
`figure.
` Q. And what's that error?
` A. I have to look.
` On Figure 6, the respective DNA sample,
`this is wrong. This is an RNA sample. This was a
`typical [sic] mistake, on Figure 6.
` Q. In the legend on Figure 6?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which appears on page 41, what should it
`read?
` A. Yes, 41.
` Q. Okay. What should the figure legend for
`Figure 6 say?
` A. It's only the last sentence where there's
`a mistake. It's not a DNA sample, it's an RNA
`sample.
` Q. So is it fair to say that the last
`sentence of the figure legend for Figure 6 should say
`
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`"Asterisks indicates small impurities contained in
`the respective RNA samples"?
` A. Yes, that's correct.
` Q. Are there any other errors in your
`declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. So looking back at your CV, it says that
`from 2007 to 2012, you obtained a Bachelor's/master's
`degree in Chemistry at the University of Stuttgart
`Germany, is that correct?
` A. In 2012, I make my diploma, and after
`this, the Ph.D. thesis.
` Q. Did you carry out any scientific research
`as part of obtaining your diploma that you received
`in 2012?
` A. You -- you mean if I published a paper
`or -- I don't understand the question exactly.
` Q. To obtain your diploma --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- degree that you obtained in 2012 --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- did you carry out any scientific
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`research?
` A. Yes, for this.
` Q. What was the focus of the scientific
`research that you conducted to obtain your diploma
`degree?
` A. It was the synthesis of a branched
`oligonucleotide.
` Q. What type of oligonucleotide?
` A. This was DNA coupled on an organic core
`molecule.
` Q. In the process of obtaining your diploma
`degree, did you carry out HPLC purification of
`nucleic acids?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What type of nucleic acid?
` A. It was DNA strands, and also this DNA
`branched oligonucleotides.
` Q. And what type of HPLC did you use in that
`research?
` A. Reversed-phased chromat -- HPLC
`chromatography.
` Q. With what stationary media?
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`4
`
`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
`16
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`14
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` A. It was a C18 column. A C-1-8 -- 8.
` Q. C18?
` A. 18.
` Q. Did you use any other media as the
`stationary phase in performing HPLC for your diploma
`degree?
` A. No.
` Q. And then your CV says that you studied for
`your doctoral degree between 2012 and 2016, is that
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. As part of obtaining your doctoral degree,
`did you carry out any research?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What was the focus of your research for
`your doctoral degree?
` A. It was also branched oligonucleotides in
`combination to encapsulate, for example, proteins or
`pharmaceutical ingredients.
` Q. What types of oligonucleotides?
` A. This was DNA. Longer D -- longer DNA
`strands.
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` Q. How long?
` A. DNA strands which I coupled on the core
`molecules was about eight nucleotides.
` Q. How long were the DNA strands that you
`used for your bachelor's/master's degree?
` A. The longest one was two nucleotides.
` Q. And what was the length of the longest
`oligonucleotide that you used for your doctoral
`degree research?
` A. I think it was 30 mer. Three zero.
` Q. For your doctoral research, did you carry
`out any HPLC purification of oligonucleotides?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What type of HPLC did you use?
` A. It was also RP-HPLC chromatography.
` Q. And what did you use as the stationary
`phase in that HPLC research?
` A. It was also on the C18 column.
` Q. For your diploma degree, did you ever
`carry out HPLC purification of RNA?
` A. No.
` Q. For your doctoral degree research, did you
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`ever carry out HPLC purification of RNA?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what kind of HPLC purification did you
`use to purify RNA, as part of your doctoral degree?
` A. It was also an RP-HPLC chromatogram --
`chromatography.
` Q. And what did you use for the stationary
`phase in using RP-HPLC purification of RNA in your
`doctoral research?
` A. It was also a C18 column.
` Q. Was it the same type of column that you
`used for purifying DNA as part of your doctoral
`research?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you use any other type of purification
`method to purify RNA as part of your Ph.D. research?
` A. No. It was -- a little one was the
`ion-exchange chromatography. But not -- it wasn't
`the common way for these molecules.
` Q. Sorry, that answer wasn't entirely clear
`to me.
` Are you saying that you used ion-exchange
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`chromatography to purify RNA as part of your Ph.D.
`research?
` A. No.
` Q. So please explain to me why you just
`referred to ion-exchange chromatography.
` A. For the other DNA branched
`oligonucleotides, we tried to use this and, for some
`longer DNA strands, it was possible to use this
`ion-exchange chromatography.
` Q. Okay. So as part of your Ph.D. research,
`you used ion-exchange chromatography to purify DNA,
`is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` When you referred to a C18 column, is that
`a silica column?
` A. Yes, a silica-based column.
` Q. A silica-based column, thank you.
` Was there a particular commercial name for
`the silica-based column that you used as part of your
`Ph.D. research?
` A. It was the Macherey-Nagel Nucleosil.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`
`5
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`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
`20
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`18
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` Q. Can you spell that, please?
` A. Macherey-Nagel? Or it's in --
`M-A-C-H-E-R-E-UPSILON N-A-G-E-L.
` Q. Let's look at page six of your
`declaration, in paragraph 12.
` Is the column that you just referred to
`the same column that's mentioned in Table 1 that
`appears on page six of your declaration in the third
`substantive row of the table?
` A. Not -- it's not the same column which I
`used during my Ph.D. thesis.
` Q. Is the supplier that you just mentioned,
`Macherey-Nagel, the same supplier that's mentioned on
`page six of your declaration in Table 1?
` A. It was the same supplier, yes.
` Q. Okay. And you mentioned Nucleosil C18 --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- in your answer.
` So was the silica-based C18 column that
`you used in your Ph.D. research to purify DNA and RNA
`the same type of column that's referred to in Table 1
`of your declaration?
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` A. No, it was not the same.
` Q. What was different?
` A. The pore size was different. During my
`Ph.D., I used a pore size of about 130 angstrom.
` Q. Okay. Other than the pore size, was the
`column that you used in your Ph.D. research to purify
`DNA and RNA the same as the Nucleosil C18
`silica-based column from Macherey-Nagel that's
`referred to in Table 1 of your declaration?
` A. Sorry, can you please repeat the question?
` Q. Other than the pore size --
` A. Yes. There was the particle size was, I
`think it was five micrometers. But I'm not really
`sure what it was exactly.
` Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that in your
`Ph.D. research, you used a Nucleosil C18 silica-based
`column from Macherey-Nagel to purify DNA and RNA?
` A. Yes. Very -- very short RNA and very
`short DNA, but yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` Can you tell me what types of materials
`have been used as the stationary phase for purifying
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`DNA by HPLC?
` MS. LENTZ: Objection to form.
` MS. ELLISON: You have to answer the
`question.
` THE WITNESS: What types of materials are
`available?
` MS. ELLISON: Yes.
` THE WITNESS: Yes. For example, the
`p-divinylbenzil material.
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Can you spell that, please, for the court
`reporter.
` A. Divinylbenzil. Sorry, I'm a little bit
`confused. A matrix was used.
` Q. Can you spell that for the court reporter?
` A. Divinylbenzene matrix. Sorry, I'm a
`little bit confused now.
` Q. Do you understand what I mean when I ask
`you to spell something?
` A. The -- the --
` Q. Give her the letters?
` A. FOW-EEH-N-UPSILON-L-B-E-N-E-C-E-N [sic]
`
`21
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`M-R-T-R-E [sic] matrix.
` Q. Okay. Depositions sometimes turn into
`spelling tests, it seems, so I apologize for that,
`but we're just trying to keep a clear transcript.
` Okay. So can you please identify for me
`any other materials that have been used as the
`stationary phase for DNA purification by HPLC?
` MS. LENTZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: You can also use C18.
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Can you identify any other types of
`materials that have been used to purify DNA by HPLC?
` MS. LENTZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Those are the common
`materials which you can use.
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. In preparing your declaration, have you
`reviewed any documents that are not identified in
`your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`carry out any searches of the scientific literature?
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`6
`
`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
`24
`
`22
`
` A. No.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`carry out any searches of patents or patent
`applications?
` A. No.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`rely upon any information that's not identified in
`your declaration?
` A. Can you please repeat the question?
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`rely upon any information that is not identified in
`your declaration?
` MS. LENTZ: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: There are some -- you mean
`there are some missing in the declaration?
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. I'm trying to understand what information
`you relied upon when preparing your declaration, and
`so I'm asking you if you relied upon any information
`that is not already identified in your declaration.
` A. No.
` Q. We're going to hand you a copy of what's
`
`23
`previously been marked as Moderna Exhibit 1004, which
`is U.S. Patent Number 6,576,133 from Gjerde, et al.
` Do you see that?
` A. I see it, yes.
` Q. Have you ever seen U.S. Patent Number
`6,576,133 before?
` A. No.
` Q. We're also going to hand you a copy of
`what has previously been marked as Moderna Exhibit
`1005. Exhibit 1005 is a publication from Linda Lloyd
`and others.
` Have you ever seen the publication that's
`provided as Exhibit 1005 before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When was the first time you saw the paper
`that was -- that's provided as Exhibit 1005?
` A. I think it was in the end of 2017.
` Q. Have you read Exhibit 1005?
` A. I have read it shortly.
` Q. Do you understand Exhibit 1005?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
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`rely upon any information that is in Exhibit 1005?
` A. No.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`consider any information that is in Exhibit 1005?
` A. Can you please repeat?
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
`consider any information that is in Exhibit 1005?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever carried out the purification
`methods disclosed in Exhibit 1005?
` MS. LENTZ: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Can you rephrase your
`question? What --
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Have you ever carried out the
`chromatography methods that are disclosed in Exhibit
`1005?
` A. I -- I saw the chromatograms, the --
` Q. That's not my question.
` My question is, have you ever carried out
`the chromatography methods that are disclosed in
`Exhibit 1005?
`
`25
`
` A. No. Only one we -- we -- we looked at the
`PL-SAX conditions.
` Q. I'm sorry, the what conditions?
` A. The conditions for the PL-SAX which Lloyd
`showed here.
` Q. Are you referring to --
` A. The Figure 6.
` Q. Figure 6.
` A. On the left. On the left, you see this,
`the conditions.
` Q. In what context did you look at the PL-SAX
`conditions from the Lloyd 1000 -- Lloyd paper that's
`provided as Exhibit 1005?
` A. Anita Buck and Markus Conzelmann told me
`that I -- if it's possible for me to check the
`conditions and do some experiments about this.
` Q. In connection with your work relating to
`this inter partes review proceeding, did you carry
`out any experiments that are not disclosed in your
`declaration?
` A. The optimization runs are not included.
`And also, the PL-SAX experiments are not included.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`7
`
`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`8 (Pages 26 to 29)
`28
`
`26
` Q. What were the PL-SAX experiments that you
`conducted?
` A. We checked if it's possible with this
`conditions which are here shown in the Lloyd paper,
`if it's possible to purify DNA and RNA mixtures, and
`this was not the case under this conditions.
` Q. Did you personally carry out those
`experiments?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what were the optimization experiments
`to which you referred a minute ago?
` A. For this declaration, the aim of the
`declaration was to compare the two columns, and for
`each, for the C18 column, firstly I have to make some
`optimization steps, so that we can -- it was, for me
`was important to find the best conditions, and this
`was first what I -- what I've done. And I've shown
`what I've shown in declaration was in the best
`optimization conditions.
` Q. In what way did you optimize the
`conditions for the C18 column?
` A. Yeah, this is normal procedure. You will
`
`27
`
`have, for example, one milliliter per minute at the
`beginning and then special gradient. And then you
`check how have you some purification, can you
`separate -- better is to say if -- if you can
`separate, then when you optimize it, if, for example,
`the flow rate goes down or up, and also check lower
`gradient on higher gradient. This was the first what
`I -- what I've done.
` Q. In your optimization steps, did you use
`DNA on those columns?
` A. Yes. The same DNA's and RNA's which are
`shown in the declaration.
` Q. Let's look back at your CV, which was
`Exhibit 2019. Your CV contains a list of
`publications. Is this list of publications complete?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In carrying out your work in connection
`with this inter partes review proceeding, have you
`reviewed any other documents that are not identified
`in your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. In preparing your declaration, did you
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`read all the documents that are cited in your
`declaration?
` A. The literature, I overview this.
` Q. Did you read all the documents cited in
`your declaration from cover to cover before signing
`your declaration?
` A. Can you please repeat the question.
` Q. Before signing your declaration, did you
`read all the documents that are cited in your
`declaration from cover to cover?
` A. I read each page before I sign it.
` Q. Before signing your declaration, did you
`read each page of the '340 patent?
` A. No.
` Q. Did -- before signing your declaration,
`did you read the '340 patent?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know Thomas Ketterer?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you please characterize your
`relationship with Thomas Ketterer.
` A. He works in the same company as I work.
`
`29
`
` Q. Do you interact with Thomas Ketterer?
` A. Only one time.
` Q. Have you ever discussed this inter partes
`review proceeding with Thomas Ketterer?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know Florian Von Der Mulbe?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you please characterize your
`relationship with Florian Von Der Mulbe.
` A. She's the COO on our company.
` Q. Do you interact with Florian Von Der
`Mulbe?
` A. Only one time.
` Q. When was that?
` A. For exactly one year.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with Florian
`Von Der Mulbe regarding this inter partes review
`proceeding?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know Ladislaus Reidel?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you please characterize your
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`8
`
`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`9 (Pages 30 to 33)
`32
`
`30
`
`relationship with Ladislaus Reidel?
` A. He also works at CureVac.
` Q. Do you interact with Ladislaus Reidel?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with Ladislaus
`Reidel?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know Thorsten Mutzke?
` A. Thorst -- Thorsten Mutzke?
` Q. Yes, sir.
` A. Yes, I know him.
` Q. Would you please characterize your
`relationship with Thorsten Mutzke?
` A. He also works at CureVac.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with Thorsten
`Mutzke?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When was the last time you communicated
`with him?
` A. Maybe three months ago.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with him about
`this inter partes review proceeding?
`
`31
`
` A. No.
` Q. How frequently do you communicate with
`Thorsten Mutzke?
` A. We see us when we go through or during the
`company and then we say hello.
` Q. Do you know Mariola Fotin-Mleczek?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with her?
` A. Yesterday was the first time.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with her
`outside the presence of attorneys for CureVac?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know Moritz Thran?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with him?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you read the declaration that Moritz
`Thran submitted in this inter partes review
`proceeding?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you read the declaration that Mariola
`Fotin-Mleczek submitted in this inter partes review
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`proceeding?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know anything about the deposition
`of Mariola Fotin-Mleczek?
` MS. LENTZ: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: No. I only know that it was
`yesterday.
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Do you know anything about the deposition
`of Moritz Thran?
` MS. LENTZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: No. The only one, that it
`was for two days, I think.
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Do you know Dr. Švek, who submitted a
`declaration in this inter partes review proceeding?
` A. I heard his name.
` Q. Do you know him?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you read Dr. Švek's declarations?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with Dr. Švek?
`
`33
`
` A. No.
` Q. Do you know who David Hornby is?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you have an understanding of what is
`claimed in the '340 patent?
` A. No. I'm not a patent lawyer, sorry.
` Q. Is it fair to say that your declaration
`describes five experiments?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Who carried out the five experiments
`disclosed in your declaration?
` A. I.
` Q. Did anyone assist you in carrying out the
`five experiments disclosed in your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. And when were these five experiments
`performed?
` A. I start experiments after I talk with
`Markus and Anita, and it was, I think was May, in the
`middle of May 2018, this year.
` Q. Who designed the five experiments
`disclosed in your declaration?
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`9
`
`

`

`Case IPR2017-02194
`Schwenger, Ph.D., AlexanderCONFIDENTIAL
`
`October 4, 2018
`10 (Pages 34 to 37)
`36
`
`34
`
` A. The design was together with Anita and
`Markus, and also I. We the three person.
` Q. For Experiment 1, can you tell me what the
`loading capacity was of the silica-based
`reversed-phase column that you used?
` A. From each DNA strand, we injected five
`nanograms per microliter and we inject -- inject ten
`microliters, so it's 500 nanograms per DNA fragment.
` Q. That actually wasn't my question.
` My question was, can you tell me what the
`loading capacity of the column was that you used in
`Experiment 1?
` A. (No response.)
` Q. Do you have an understanding of what a
`loading capacity is in the context of chromatography?
` A. Yes, but we don't check the loading
`capacity for this because this one only analytical
`runs, so we inject not so much material to get good
`separation of this ones.
` Q. Can you tell me what the total amount of
`DNA loaded onto the column in Experiment 1 was?
` A. 3,500 nanograms DNA.
`
`35
`
` Q. For Experiment 2, did you determine what
`the loading capacity of the column was?
` A. Also here, we don't check the loading
`capacity because there was also, first, more
`analytical runs to inject not so much material to --
`to look that we have this, the best separation.
` Q. Can you tell me what amount of nucleic
`acid was loaded onto the column in Experiment 2?
` A. From each strand, together it was 1,000
`nanograms.
` Q. For Experiment 3, did you check what the
`loading capacity of the column was?
` A. No, we don't check it.
` Q. And why is that?
` A. Because also here, we choose analytical
`conditions and do this experiments with this -- with
`this very -- with this low nanograms.
` Q. And can you tell me what the amount of DNA
`loaded onto the column in Experiment 3 was?
` I'm sorry, let me rephrase that question.
` For Experiment 3, can you tell me what
`amount of nucleic acid was loaded onto the column?
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` A. And the whole mixture was, we injected ten
`microliters and so it was 2,000 nanograms.
` Q. For Experiment 4, did you check what the
`loading capacity of the column was?
` A. No.
` Q. And why is that?
` A. Because we only used -- here, we want to
`show what -- what looks the fractions which we get
`from this columns when we inject, for example, 4,000
`kilobase RNA. And here, we also don't check because
`it's not so much what we injected here, 10,000
`nanograms per microliter. An