· · ·IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·
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`· · · · · · · · ***************************
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`· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`· · · · · · · · **************************
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`·
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`· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
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`· · ·FITBIT, INC.,· · · · · · · · · : IPR2017-02012
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`· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · :
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`· · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · : Patent 6,434,212
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`· · ·BLACKBIRD TECH LLC d/b/a· · · ·:
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`· · ·BLACKBIRD TECHNOLOGIES,· · · · :
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`· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · :
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`· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
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`·
`
`· · · ·Deposition of MICHAEL A. CALOYANNIDES, PH.D.
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.
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`· · · · · · · · Friday, September 14, 2018
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·9:56 a.m.
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`·
`
`·
`
`· · ·Job No. 244374
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`· · ·Pages:· 1 - 178
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`· · ·Reported by:· Dana C. Ryan, RPR, CRR
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`·
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 1
`
`
`
`·
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`· · · · · · · · ***************************
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`· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· · · · · · · · **************************
`
`·
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`· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
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`· · ·FITBIT, INC.,· · · · · · · · · : IPR2017-02012
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`· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · :
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`· · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · : Patent 6,434,212
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`· · ·BLACKBIRD TECH LLC d/b/a· · · ·:
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`· · ·BLACKBIRD TECHNOLOGIES,· · · · :
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`· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · :
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`· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
`
`·
`
`· · · ·Deposition of MICHAEL A. CALOYANNIDES, PH.D.
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.
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`· · · · · · · · Friday, September 14, 2018
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·9:56 a.m.
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`·
`
`·
`
`· · ·Job No. 244374
`
`· · ·Pages:· 1 - 178
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`· · ·Reported by:· Dana C. Ryan, RPR, CRR
`
`·
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 1
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`·1
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`·2
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·September 14, 2018
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·9:56 a.m.
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · Deposition of MICHAEL A. CALOYANNIDES,
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`10· ·PH.D., held at the law offices of Baker Botts
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`11· ·L.L.P., 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest,
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`12· ·Washington, D.C., before Dana C. Ryan, Registered
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`13· ·Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
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`14· ·and Notary Public in and for the District of
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`15· ·Columbia, who officiated in administering the oath
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`16· ·to the witness.
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2
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`·3· ·ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`·4· · · · CHRIS PONDER, Esquire
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`·5· · · · Baker Botts L.L.P.
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`·6· · · · 1001 Page Mill Road
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`·7· · · · Building One, Suite 200
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`·8· · · · Palo Alto, California 94304
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`·9· · · · Telephone:· (315) 492-4700
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`10· · · · Email: cponder@sheppardmullin.com
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`11
`
`12· · · · · · · · · ·- and -
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`13
`
`14· · · · HARPER BATTS, Esquire
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`15· · · · Sheppard, Mullin, Richter & Hampton LLP
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`16· · · · 379 Lytton Avenue
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`17· · · · Palo Alto, California 94301
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`18· · · · Telephone: (650) 815-2600
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`19· · · · Email: hbatts@sheppardmullin.com
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 3
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`·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S· C O N T I N U E D
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`·2
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`·3· · ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`·4· · · · ·WALTER DAVIS, Esquire
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`·5· · · · ·Davidson Berquist Jackson & Gowdey, LLP
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`·6· · · · ·8300 Greensboro Drive
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`·7· · · · ·Suite 500
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`·8· · · · ·McLean, Virginia 22102
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`·9· · · · ·Telephone:· (571) 765-7700
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`10· · · · ·Email: wdavis@dbjg.com
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`21
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`23
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`24
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`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · C O N T E N T S
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`·2
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION OF
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`·4· ·MICHAEL A. CALOYANNIDES, PH.D.:· · · · · · · PAGE:
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`·5· ·By Mr. Ponder· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·6
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`·6· ·By Mr. Davis· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 167
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`·7
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`·8
`
`·9· · · · · · ******************************
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`10· · · · · · · PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`11· · · · · · ******************************
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`12· ·FITBIT· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE:
`
`13· ·Exhibit 1001· · · Pyles Patent· · · · · · · · ·28
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`14· ·Exhibit 1003· · · Amano Patent· · · · · · · · ·25
`
`15
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`16· ·PATENT OWNER
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`17· ·Exhibit 2001· · · Declaration Of Michael· · · ·10
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`18· · · · · · · · · · ·Caloyannides, Ph.D.
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`19· ·Exhibit 2002· · · Curriculum Vitae· · · · · · ·11
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`20
`
`21· · · · · · *******************************
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`22· · · · · · · · ·REFERRED TO DOCUMENTS
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`23· · · · · · ******************************
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`24· ·Petition For Inter Partes Review· · · · · · · 102
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`25
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 5
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· · · · · · · - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`·3· · · · · · MICHAEL A. CALOYANNIDES, PH.D.,
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`·4· · ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
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`·5· · · · · · · - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
`·6· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`
`·7· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`·8· · · · Q· · ·Good morning.
`
`·9· · · · A· · ·Good morning, sir.
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`10· · · · Q· · ·Could you please state your name for
`
`11· ·the record?
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`12· · · · A· · ·Michael Caloyannides.
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`13· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Where do you live?
`
`14· · · · A· · ·I live in Herndon, Virginia.
`
`15· · · · Q· · ·Before we get started, I'd like to just
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`16· ·go over a few ground rules for the deposition to
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`17· ·help keep things going smoothly.
`
`18· · · · A· · ·Sure.
`
`19· · · · Q· · ·As you can see, we have a court
`
`20· ·reporter here today who will be taking down the
`
`21· ·questions and will be taking down your answers.
`
`22· ·So the first thing I would ask is we should both
`
`23· ·do our best to pause and let the other person
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`24· ·speak so that the court reporter only has to take
`
`25· ·down one person -- one person's speech at a time.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 6
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · Does that work for you?
`
`·2· · · · A· · ·Of course.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· We can take a break any time you
`
`·4· ·would like so long as there's no question pending.
`
`·5· ·So if I've asked you a question, I would just ask
`
`·6· ·for you to provide your answer and let me know
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`·7· ·that you'd like to take a break at that point.
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`·8· · · · · · · Does that work for you?
`
`·9· · · · A· · ·Very good.
`
`10· · · · Q· · ·Is there any reason that you are not
`
`11· ·able to fully and truthfully testify today such as
`
`12· ·any kind of mental condition or medication that
`
`13· ·you're taking?
`
`14· · · · A· · ·No.· I'm taking lots of medications but
`
`15· ·none that affect my answers.
`
`16· · · · Q· · ·Your counsel may object to one of my
`
`17· ·questions, but I would still appreciate receiving
`
`18· ·an answer to the question unless he instructs you
`
`19· ·not to answer.
`
`20· · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`
`21· · · · A· · ·Understood.
`
`22· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· When were you first contacted
`
`23· ·about preparing your declaration for this matter?
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`24· · · · A· · ·Approximately four months ago, give or
`
`25· ·take a month.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 7
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · ·How much time did you spend preparing
`
`·2· ·your declaration?
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`·3· · · · A· · ·Well, at the time -- it was not spent
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`·4· ·just preparing the declaration.· I did not itemize
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`·5· ·it by that.· The whole time on this case was, I
`
`·6· ·would say, around a hundred hours, but some of it
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`·7· ·was in telephone conversations, some of it was for
`
`·8· ·declaration, some of it was for reading background
`
`·9· ·material.
`
`10· · · · Q· · ·So you've spent approximately a hundred
`
`11· ·hours total in preparing your opinions and doing
`
`12· ·work on this case?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·To the best of my recollection.· I've
`
`14· ·not tallied it, but I'm just guessing, a ballpark.
`
`15· · · · Q· · ·And I believe you've also submitted
`
`16· ·opinions and declarations in related inter partes
`
`17· ·review proceedings for the same patent; is that
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`18· ·correct?
`
`19· · · · A· · ·That is correct.
`
`20· · · · Q· · ·Were you including any of your time
`
`21· ·spent preparing or formulating your opinions for
`
`22· ·those matters in the 100 hours?
`
`23· · · · A· · ·I was.· But, again, the hundred hours
`
`24· ·is not a hard number.· It's approximate.· Could
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`25· ·have been 150, could have been 75.· I don't
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 8
`
`
`
`·1· ·remember.
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`·2· · · · Q· · ·And what did you do to prepare for this
`
`·3· ·deposition?
`
`·4· · · · A· · ·Well, a number of things.· I reviewed
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`·5· ·my declaration, reviewed the patent in question,
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`·6· ·and I reviewed a number of other documents which I
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`·7· ·have listed in my declaration which -- I don't
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`·8· ·remember them by heart now, but they're all
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`·9· ·listed.· If you give me my declaration, I can read
`
`10· ·them from there.
`
`11· · · · Q· · ·Did you meet with anyone to prepare for
`
`12· ·this deposition?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·Yes, I met with Mr. Davis.
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`14· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And how much time do you think
`
`15· ·you spent meeting with Mr. Davis?
`
`16· · · · A· · ·Less than one day.
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`17· · · · Q· · ·Did you speak to anyone other than
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`18· ·Mr. Davis about this -- about your opinions here?
`
`19· · · · A· · ·Well, before meeting with Mr. Davis, I
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`20· ·was interfacing with a number of other attorneys
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`21· ·at his firm.· It was not specific to the -- the
`
`22· ·deposition today, but in connection with this
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`23· ·whole case.
`
`24· · · · Q· · ·Have you spoken to anyone that is not a
`
`25· ·lawyer working for the patent owner in connection
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 9
`
`
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·with this case?
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`·2· · · · A· · ·No.
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`·3· · · · · · · MR. PONDER:· I'm handing the witness
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`·4· ·Exhibit 2001.
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`·5· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
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`·6· · · · · · · (Patent Owner Exhibit 2001 referred
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`·7· ·to.)
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`·8· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`·9· · · · Q· · ·I was just going to ask you if you
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`10· ·could point me to the portion of your declaration
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`11· ·that you're referring to that lists the materials
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`12· ·you considered.
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`13· · · · A· · ·They may not be explicitly listed. I
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`14· ·do not remember.· If you wanted to go through the
`
`15· ·whole declaration line by line, I can try.
`
`16· · · · Q· · ·Oh, okay.· No, that's fine.· I -- I was
`
`17· ·wondering if there was a paragraph or something
`
`18· ·like that, but if there's not, that's fine.· Okay.
`
`19· · · · · · · Did you review the petition that was
`
`20· ·filed?
`
`21· · · · A· · ·Petition filed by whom?
`
`22· · · · Q· · ·This would be the Fitbit petition for
`
`23· ·inter partes review.
`
`24· · · · A· · ·I didn't.
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`25· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And have you reviewed the
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 10
`
`
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·institution decision in this proceeding?
`
`·2· · · · A· · ·Yes.
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`·3· · · · Q· · ·Did you review Dr. Choudhury's
`
`·4· ·declaration?
`
`·5· · · · A· · ·Yes, I did.
`
`·6· · · · Q· · ·About how much time did you spend
`
`·7· ·reviewing Dr. Choudhury's declaration?
`
`·8· · · · A· · ·Oh, I did not partition it in that way.
`
`·9· ·I -- in total time spent.· I can't remember the
`
`10· ·exact time.
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`11· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Did you review Dr. Choudhury's
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`12· ·deposition transcript?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·I don't believe so, no.· If it was
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`14· ·given to me, I may have quickly glanced over it,
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`15· ·but I have not spent any reasonable amount of time
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`16· ·on it.
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`17· · · · · · · MR. PONDER:· I'm handing the witness
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`18· ·Exhibit 2002.
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`19· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
`
`20· · · · · · · (Patent Owner Exhibit 2002 referred
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`21· ·to.)
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`22· · · · · · · MR. PONDER:· It's a very wide table.
`
`23· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`24· · · · Q· · ·Sir, is this a true and accurate copy
`
`25· ·of your curriculum vitae?
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 11
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · A· · ·It's reasonably current.· I continue
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`·2· ·working, so things change on an almost daily
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`·3· ·basis.· As for accurate, it is accurate.· But,
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`·4· ·again, it summarizes, you know, a better part of
`
`·5· ·half a century of experience, so it does not
`
`·6· ·include every little thing.· It includes the major
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`·7· ·things, especially ones pertinent to this case.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · ·Are there any particular entries in
`
`·9· ·here that you think particularly relate to the
`
`10· ·technology that's at issue in this case?
`
`11· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection: form.
`
`12· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, they all relate to
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`13· ·that because this case requires judgment in a
`
`14· ·number of disciplines, and this judgment is formed
`
`15· ·as a result of exposure and experience in a number
`
`16· ·of different fields.· So there's no way I can say
`
`17· ·that this was very relevant; this was less
`
`18· ·relevant.
`
`19· · · · · · · They're all relevant to some extent.
`
`20· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`21· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Do you have any experience --
`
`22· ·well, let me strike that.
`
`23· · · · · · · Have you heard the term "pedometer"
`
`24· ·before?
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`25· · · · A· · ·Yes, I have.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 12
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`
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· What is a pedometer?
`
`·2· · · · A· · ·Well, a pedometer, as I understand it,
`
`·3· ·is an electronic device -- could be mechanical, I
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`·4· ·suppose, too.· It's a device which is worn or
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`·5· ·carried by a person which, at a minimum, measures
`
`·6· ·the number of steps one has made.
`
`·7· · · · Q· · ·And have you heard of the -- or used
`
`·8· ·the term "health or fitness trackers"?
`
`·9· · · · A· · ·Yes, I have heard the term.· Yes, I
`
`10· ·have seen some devices.
`
`11· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· What's an example of a health or
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`12· ·fitness tracker?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·Well, if by "example" you mean a
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`14· ·manufacturer, I would not know.
`
`15· · · · Q· · ·Okay.
`
`16· · · · A· · ·But if you mean in terms of
`
`17· ·functionality, it's a device which goes beyond a
`
`18· ·pedometer and assesses other physical and
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`19· ·physiological aspects of one's physical activity.
`
`20· · · · Q· · ·So how does a pedometer work?
`
`21· · · · A· · ·Well, how does which pedometer work?
`
`22· ·Any pedometer?
`
`23· · · · Q· · ·Just pedometers in general.
`
`24· · · · · · · What is the general principle operation
`
`25· ·for a device that can be worn or carried that
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 13
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·counts steps?
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`·2· · · · A· · ·I don't know about every single
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`·3· ·pedometer made, but in general they count steps,
`
`·4· ·and they do that in a number of different ways.
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`·5· ·Some use one approach; some use a different
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`·6· ·approach.· One approach which is simpler to
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`·7· ·implement is one that measures, directly or
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`·8· ·indirectly, the acceleration or deceleration
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`·9· ·associated with one's steps as one walks.
`
`10· · · · Q· · ·So in some pedometers, would you say
`
`11· ·accelerometers are used to detect the
`
`12· ·accelerations?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·Well, yes, except the term
`
`14· ·"accelerometer" does not imply a humongous
`
`15· ·machine.· It could be something as simple as a
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`16· ·pendulum, or it could be something more involved
`
`17· ·like a full-blown accelerometer or anywhere in
`
`18· ·between.
`
`19· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Have you ever worked on
`
`20· ·designing or implementing a pedometer?
`
`21· · · · A· · ·Well, I have worked on devices that
`
`22· ·incorporated accelerometers for the purpose of
`
`23· ·measuring a number of different kinds of motions
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`24· ·which is what is also used in accelerom- -- in
`
`25· ·pedometers.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 14
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`
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · Q· · ·Were any of those devices that you
`
`·2· ·worked on worn by users?
`
`·3· · · · A· · ·Yes, they were.· In fact, most modern
`
`·4· ·cell phones have a functionality which allows one
`
`·5· ·to measure steps using their own built-in
`
`·6· ·accelerometers.· So I have designed the underlying
`
`·7· ·technologies for some of them as well as for
`
`·8· ·things that are not built into cell phones.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · ·Do you know if any of those products
`
`10· ·using those designs have been commercially sold?
`
`11· · · · A· · ·I'm a technologist, not a businessman
`
`12· ·or a marketing person.· So in that, I've not
`
`13· ·followed the commercial development of the
`
`14· ·technological things I have developed.
`
`15· · · · Q· · ·Can you tell me what company or
`
`16· ·organization you performed that work for?
`
`17· · · · A· · ·Mostly for the U.S. government.
`
`18· · · · Q· · ·What differences would you say there
`
`19· ·are between health or fitness trackers and
`
`20· ·pedometers?
`
`21· · · · A· · ·It is -- I mean, both terms are not
`
`22· ·scientifically rigorous.· They are commercial
`
`23· ·marketing terms.· If you ask me for the
`
`24· ·differences between marketing terms which are
`
`25· ·really not formally defined in dictionaries,
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 15
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·necessarily, I can only give you qualitative
`
`·2· ·answer, namely that there is different degree of
`
`·3· ·sophistication between them.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · ·Do you know how -- what types of --
`
`·5· ·strike that.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Do you know what types of approaches
`
`·7· ·were available for operating a pedometer in 1998?
`
`·8· · · · A· · ·Yes, I do.· If you name the underlying
`
`·9· ·engineering, physics and physiological principles,
`
`10· ·yes, I'm aware of them.
`
`11· · · · Q· · ·So I think you mentioned you could use
`
`12· ·a pendulum to detect steps; is that correct?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·In the most simple, crude form, yes.
`
`14· · · · Q· · ·And that technique was available in
`
`15· ·1998?
`
`16· · · · A· · ·And before.
`
`17· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And then we mentioned
`
`18· ·acceleration sensors.· Were those available in
`
`19· ·1998?
`
`20· · · · A· · ·Acceleration sensors in general, for
`
`21· ·various applications, not necessarily only for
`
`22· ·pedometers, have been available for many decades.
`
`23· · · · Q· · ·And were acceleration sensors used in
`
`24· ·pedometers at least by 1998?
`
`25· · · · A· · ·I have not examined every single
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 16
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·pedometer made in 1998, but I believe that some of
`
`·2· ·them were.· Again, I'm not a marketing person. I
`
`·3· ·have no idea what is commercialized and what is
`
`·4· ·not.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Do you know when -- when -- strike
`
`·6· ·that.
`
`·7· · · · · · · Do you know when acceleration sensors
`
`·8· ·were first used in the field of pedometers?
`
`·9· · · · A· · ·Again you're asking me if I know the
`
`10· ·commercial aspects as to what commercial devices
`
`11· ·used what technologies.· That is not what I
`
`12· ·focused on.
`
`13· · · · Q· · ·When was it known in the field,
`
`14· ·regardless of whether it was commercialized, that
`
`15· ·you could use acceleration sensors in pedometers?
`
`16· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection to form.
`
`17· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· When you say "known in
`
`18· ·the field," known by whom?· As a scientist in the
`
`19· ·field for many decades, I've known about it for a
`
`20· ·long time.· Known by others, it depends by whom.
`
`21· ·Some have known; some have not known.· So I cannot
`
`22· ·give you a blanket answer for everyone in the
`
`23· ·world.
`
`24· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`25· · · · Q· · ·Let's talk about the person of ordinary
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 17
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·skill in the art.· Have you heard that term
`
`·2· ·before?
`
`·3· · · · A· · ·Yes, I have.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · ·And what is your understanding of what
`
`·5· ·a person of ordinary skill in the art is?· I'm not
`
`·6· ·talking about the specific person of ordinary
`
`·7· ·skill in the art for this case, but just what that
`
`·8· ·term means in general.
`
`·9· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I'm not an
`
`11· ·attorney, and I'm not a semanticist or a linguist,
`
`12· ·so that is a disclaimer.
`
`13· · · · · · · My understanding is it's a person that
`
`14· ·is defined to have specific background, and it is
`
`15· ·not -- this definition are not universal.· They
`
`16· ·depend from case to case, and each patent
`
`17· ·litigation defines a person of skill in the art to
`
`18· ·be whatever it defines it to be.· So there's no
`
`19· ·uniform definition for everybody.· So given that
`
`20· ·there's no uniform definition, I'm not quite sure
`
`21· ·what you're asking me for.
`
`22· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`23· · · · Q· · ·That's fine.· I just wanted to know
`
`24· ·what your understanding of that term was
`
`25· ·generally.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 18
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · · · · So lets move on to the person of
`
`·2· ·ordinary skill in the art for this case.
`
`·3· · · · · · · Did you offer an opinion what the level
`
`·4· ·of ordinary skill is for the '212 patent?
`
`·5· · · · A· · ·Yes, I did.
`
`·6· · · · Q· · ·And do you agree that -- well, strike
`
`·7· ·that.
`
`·8· · · · · · · Did you review Dr. Choudhury's opinion
`
`·9· ·on the level of ordinary skill?
`
`10· · · · A· · ·Yes, I did.
`
`11· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And did you agree with
`
`12· ·Dr. Choudhury that a person of ordinary skill
`
`13· ·could have the qualifications that were set out in
`
`14· ·her definition of the level of ordinary skill?
`
`15· · · · A· · ·I felt that the qualifications
`
`16· ·mentioned were adequate to assess this patent;
`
`17· ·however, I felt they were also very restrictive,
`
`18· ·that other qualifications would also qualify a
`
`19· ·person to be one of ordinary skill of the art, and
`
`20· ·I mention those.
`
`21· · · · Q· · ·So is it fair to say that you think
`
`22· ·Dr. Choudhury's definition is a subset of your
`
`23· ·definition of the level of ordinary skill?
`
`24· · · · A· · ·Yes.· In a sense, yes.
`
`25· · · · Q· · ·And the level of ordinary skill that
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 19
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·you have set out in your declaration is broader
`
`·2· ·than Dr. Choudhury's definition, yes?
`
`·3· · · · A· · ·Yes.· I mean, that's a tautology, in a
`
`·4· ·sense.· You asked me if my definition is
`
`·5· ·broader -- if her definition is a subset.· So,
`
`·6· ·therefore, by definition, my interpretation of the
`
`·7· ·term is broader, yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · ·And your definition includes a
`
`·9· ·bachelor's degree in sports medicine, exercise
`
`10· ·science and physiology with two years of relevant
`
`11· ·experience; is that right?
`
`12· · · · A· · ·It includes that.· It's not limited to
`
`13· ·that, but it includes that, yes.
`
`14· · · · Q· · ·And the relevant experience would be in
`
`15· ·the areas of pedometers, health or fitness
`
`16· ·trackers?
`
`17· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · Q· · ·Okay.
`
`19· · · · A· · ·Well, let's not limit it.· I have to
`
`20· ·get to my precise wording that I used.
`
`21· · · · Q· · ·I think it's paragraph 26.
`
`22· · · · A· · ·Paragraph 26.
`
`23· · · · · · · (Witness reviews document.)
`
`24· · · · · · · Yes, that's correct, more or less, in a
`
`25· ·way of summary statement, yes.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 20
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · Q· · ·Is it your opinion that the relevant
`
`·2· ·field of art for this patent is pedometers, health
`
`·3· ·and fitness trackers?
`
`·4· · · · A· · ·Oh, that's a very all-inclusive
`
`·5· ·statement.· No, I would not agree.· But a field in
`
`·6· ·the art for pedometers, as I mentioned before,
`
`·7· ·includes many disciplines.· It includes
`
`·8· ·physiology.· It includes signal processing in
`
`·9· ·copious amounts.· It includes electronics
`
`10· ·implementations.· It includes short-range
`
`11· ·communications.· So it's a number of different
`
`12· ·disciplines which are involved.
`
`13· · · · Q· · ·As far as the types of devices that are
`
`14· ·in the field of this patent, would you say that
`
`15· ·that covers things like pedometers and health or
`
`16· ·fitness trackers?
`
`17· · · · A· · ·I'm not sure what you mean.· Can -- can
`
`18· ·you repeat the question?
`
`19· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So is it your understanding that
`
`20· ·the '212 patent claims specific types of devices?
`
`21· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection to form.
`
`22· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, it doesn't claim
`
`23· ·specific devices.· It claims what the claims say
`
`24· ·that it claims, and that's more than devices.· It
`
`25· ·talks about algorithms, about means of doing what,
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 21
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·and how it's done, and why it's done, and so on.
`
`·2· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`·3· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So you can't say one way or
`
`·4· ·another whether the relevant field of art for the
`
`·5· ·'212 patent is -- includes pedometers, health and
`
`·6· ·fitness trackers?
`
`·7· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection to form.
`
`·8· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, if you say
`
`·9· ·"includes," yes, it includes, without excluding a
`
`10· ·number of other disciplines.· That's correct.
`
`11· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`12· · · · Q· · ·So the relevant art for the '212
`
`13· ·patent -- strike that.
`
`14· · · · · · · Do you agree that the relevant art for
`
`15· ·the '212 patent includes things such as pedometers
`
`16· ·and health or fitness trackers?
`
`17· · · · A· · ·It includes as one small portion out of
`
`18· ·the whole population of things that it includes,
`
`19· ·yes.
`
`20· · · · Q· · ·And I believe in your declaration you
`
`21· ·refer to health or fitness trackers.· Is there a
`
`22· ·difference between a health tracker or a fitness
`
`23· ·tracker, or would it be fine if we just refer to
`
`24· ·those as fitness trackers?
`
`25· · · · A· · ·These are commercial marketing terms.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 22
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·As a technical person, it don't mean a whole lot
`
`·2· ·to me.· I think that I refer to them generically
`
`·3· ·as devices that are a few steps above pedometers,
`
`·4· ·and they perform additional functions related to
`
`·5· ·one's physical well-being.
`
`·6· · · · Q· · ·Would it be okay for the purposes of
`
`·7· ·today's deposition -- I will refer to things like
`
`·8· ·pedometers and I'll refer to fitness trackers, and
`
`·9· ·we'll know that we're meaning, you know,
`
`10· ·pedometers being the more basic devices and the
`
`11· ·fitness trackers dealing with the other
`
`12· ·physiological aspects?
`
`13· · · · A· · ·Sure.· It's not more dealing with other
`
`14· ·physiological aspects, it's also what they do with
`
`15· ·information.· They process it; they display it;
`
`16· ·they use different algorithms.· So there's a lot
`
`17· ·more than just dealing with it, yes.
`
`18· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So how about for today we'll
`
`19· ·refer to pedometers as one class of device.
`
`20· · · · · · · Would that be fine?
`
`21· · · · A· · ·That's fine.
`
`22· · · · Q· · ·For the more sophisticated devices,
`
`23· ·we'll refer to those at fitness trackers.· Would
`
`24· ·that work?
`
`25· · · · A· · ·Yes, as long as we have a common
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 23
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·understanding that there is no sharp dividing line
`
`·2· ·between the two.· There's always kind of a gray
`
`·3· ·area that things are kind of a little more than
`
`·4· ·plain pedometers and a little less than a
`
`·5· ·full-blown physical health tracker, so it's
`
`·6· ·somewhere in between.· But so continue.
`
`·7· · · · Q· · ·Thank you.
`
`·8· · · · · · · Did you review the Amano patent?
`
`·9· · · · A· · ·Yes, I did.
`
`10· · · · Q· · ·Would you agree that the Amano patent
`
`11· ·describes fitness trackers?
`
`12· · · · A· · ·Well, I understood in my patent here --
`
`13· ·you make a very sweeping -- very condensed
`
`14· ·statement.
`
`15· · · · · · · The Amano patent does a lot of things.
`
`16· ·And I mentioned in my paragraph 38, for example,
`
`17· ·Disclosed the system in which the user's pitch --
`
`18· ·in other words, the number of steps per unit of
`
`19· ·time -- is sampled -- blah, blah, blah.· It does
`
`20· ·not disclose calculating the distance traveled.
`
`21· · · · · · · And then I have a whole lot of
`
`22· ·paragraphs about the Amano tracker.· So I don't
`
`23· ·want to summarize all this in just four words as
`
`24· ·you tried to summarize it.
`
`25· · · · Q· · ·I am handing you Exhibit 1003 which is
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 24
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·a copy of the Amano patent.
`
`·2· · · · A· · ·All right.
`
`·3· · · · · · · (Fitbit Exhibit 1003 referred to.)
`
`·4· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`·5· · · · Q· · ·So do you see the title on the first
`
`·6· ·page?· It says Exercise Workout Support Device.
`
`·7· · · · A· · ·I do.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · ·And would you agree one of the
`
`·9· ·functions of this exercise workout support device
`
`10· ·is to determine the maximum oxygen uptake of a
`
`11· ·user that is exercising?
`
`12· · · · A· · ·Well, the stated -- one of the stated
`
`13· ·goals in the Amano patent is to determine the
`
`14· ·oxygen uptake by the user, yes.
`
`15· · · · Q· · ·So just for the purposes of kind of
`
`16· ·classifying this type of device, would you say
`
`17· ·that the Amano device would be a fitness tracker?
`
`18· · · · A· · ·Again, I'm a technical person, not a
`
`19· ·linguist.· It is a device which is more than a
`
`20· ·pedometer in its simplest form, less than a
`
`21· ·full-blown health measuring computer.· So it's a
`
`22· ·device that, as it says, is capable of determining
`
`23· ·the maximum oxygen uptake quantity without the
`
`24· ·restriction of a larger device requiring
`
`25· ·troublesome operations to be carried out.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 25
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · · · · That is from his abstract.
`
`·2· · · · Q· · ·Have you looked at the Kato patent?
`
`·3· · · · A· · ·Yes, I have.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · ·Is the Kato reference directed to
`
`·5· ·pedometers or fitness trackers?
`
`·6· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection to form.
`
`·7· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, again, almost the
`
`·8· ·same comments as for the Amano patent.
`
`·9· · · · · · · The Kato patent basically, as I
`
`10· ·mentioned in my paragraph 52, discloses
`
`11· ·calculating the distance traveled by multiplying
`
`12· ·the user speed by the time traveled and taking the
`
`13· ·user's height into consideration -- no, more than
`
`14· ·consideration -- using it as necessary input, and
`
`15· ·it goes on.
`
`16· · · · · · · So it falls into the category of, I
`
`17· ·guess, more than a pedometer and less than a
`
`18· ·full-blown health measuring piece of equipment.
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. PONDER:· Let's take a quick break.
`
`20· ·I need my computer.
`
`21· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sure.
`
`22· · · · · · · (Recess -- 10:24 a.m.)
`
`23· · · · · · · (After recess -- 10:33 a.m.)
`
`24· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`25· · · · Q· · ·So, sir, going back to the term
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 26
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· ·"pedometer," do you agree that you use the word
`
`·2· ·"pedometer" in your declaration?
`
`·3· · · · A· · ·Most likely I used the term, yes.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And "health tracker" is another
`
`·5· ·term that you've used in your declaration?
`
`·6· · · · A· · ·I believe so.· I can search the --
`
`·7· · · · Q· · ·I can point you to paragraph 26.
`
`·8· · · · A· · ·Yes, that's fine.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · ·And "fitness tracker" is another term
`
`10· ·that you've used in your declaration; correct?
`
`11· · · · A· · ·I presume so, yes.
`
`12· · · · Q· · ·And those terms were used in the
`
`13· ·context of describing the relevant practical
`
`14· ·experience for the person of ordinary skill in the
`
`15· ·art; correct?
`
`16· · · · A· · ·Let me go to the part where I'm
`
`17· ·describing the person of skill in the art.
`
`18· · · · · · · Yes, that's correct.· All those terms
`
`19· ·show up in my paragraph 26, pedometers, health or
`
`20· ·fitness trackers and so on, yes.
`
`21· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So let's start with the '212
`
`22· ·patent.· Does the '212 patent describe pedometers?
`
`23· · · · A· · ·If you would be so kind to give me the
`
`24· ·'212 patent.
`
`25· · · · Q· · ·Sure.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 27
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · · · · I'm handing you Exhibit 1001.
`
`·2· · · · · · · (Fitbit Exhibit 1001 referred to.)
`
`·3· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you.· I have it.
`
`·4· · · · BY MR. PONDER:
`
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Would you agree that the '212
`
`·6· ·patent is directed to pedometers?
`
`·7· · · · A· · ·I agree with that.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · ·Is the '212 patent directed to health
`
`·9· ·trackers?
`
`10· · · · A· · ·Well, given that a pedometer is a
`
`11· ·subset portion of the spectrum that goes from a
`
`12· ·very simplistic device all the way to a very
`
`13· ·complex device, the techniques described in the
`
`14· ·'212 patent don't stop at a certain point but
`
`15· ·continue.
`
`16· · · · · · · So to that extent, it would apply to
`
`17· ·devices which are more complex than a simple
`
`18· ·pedometer, yes.
`
`19· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And it's your opinion that the
`
`20· ·'212 patent describes a device or devices that are
`
`21· ·more complex than a pedometer?
`
`22· · · · A· · ·It also describes devices which are
`
`23· ·more complex than a pedometer, not only those
`
`24· ·device but includes those as well, in addition to
`
`25· ·pedometer, yes.
`
`IPR2018-02012
`FITBIT, Ex. 1021
`Page 28
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
`·1· · · · Q· · ·And those devices could be considered a
`
`·2· ·health or a fitness tracker?
`
`·3· · · · A· · ·These are marketing terms.· I suppose
`
`·4· ·some people would apply that label to them.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· But, sir, you've used this term
`
`·6· ·in your definition of person of ordinary skill in
`
`·7· ·the art; correct?
`
`·8· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · ·So that term has some meaning to the
`
`10· ·technologists, the people developing and inventing
`
`11· ·in this field; correct?
`
`12· · · · · · · MR. DAVIS:· Objection to form.
`
`13· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It doesn't ha
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