Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 1 Filed: 12/27/2016
`(cid:57)(cid:50)(cid:47)(cid:56)(cid:48)(cid:40)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:3)(cid:50)(cid:41)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:51)(cid:36)(cid:42)(cid:40)(cid:54)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:20)(cid:3)(cid:177)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:20)(cid:26)(cid:27)(cid:21)(cid:20)(cid:3)
`(cid:3)
`(cid:36)(cid:83)(cid:83)(cid:72)(cid:68)(cid:79)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:82)(cid:86)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:25)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:24)(cid:26)(cid:26)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:25)(cid:20)(cid:20)(cid:3)
`
`United States Court of Appeals
`for the
`Federal Circuit
`
`(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:57)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:47)(cid:44)(cid:42)(cid:43)(cid:55)(cid:3)(cid:40)(cid:47)(cid:40)(cid:38)(cid:55)(cid:53)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:54)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:50)(cid:17)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:47)(cid:55)(cid:39)(cid:17)(cid:15)(cid:3)
`Plaintiff-Cross-Appellant,
`(cid:40)(cid:48)(cid:38)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:40)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:51)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:36)(cid:55)(cid:44)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:15)(cid:3)
`
`Plaintiff,
`
`(cid:40)(cid:57)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:47)(cid:44)(cid:42)(cid:43)(cid:55)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:48)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:36)(cid:54)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:38)(cid:17)(cid:15)(cid:3)
`Counterclaim Defendant-Cross-Appellant,
`(cid:177)(cid:3)(cid:89)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:177)(cid:3)
`(cid:49)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:43)(cid:44)(cid:36)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:51)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:36)(cid:55)(cid:44)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:71)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:43)(cid:44)(cid:36)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:48)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:36)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:51)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:36)(cid:55)(cid:44)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:15)(cid:3)
`Defendants-Appellants.
`
`(cid:36)(cid:51)(cid:51)(cid:40)(cid:36)(cid:47)(cid:3)(cid:41)(cid:53)(cid:50)(cid:48)(cid:3)(cid:55)(cid:43)(cid:40)(cid:3)(cid:56)(cid:49)(cid:44)(cid:55)(cid:40)(cid:39)(cid:3)(cid:54)(cid:55)(cid:36)(cid:55)(cid:40)(cid:54)(cid:3)(cid:39)(cid:44)(cid:54)(cid:55)(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:55)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:50)(cid:56)(cid:53)(cid:55)(cid:3)(cid:41)(cid:50)(cid:53)(cid:3)(cid:3)
`(cid:55)(cid:43)(cid:40)(cid:3)(cid:40)(cid:36)(cid:54)(cid:55)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:39)(cid:44)(cid:54)(cid:55)(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:55)(cid:3)(cid:50)(cid:41)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:43)(cid:44)(cid:42)(cid:36)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:36)(cid:54)(cid:40)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:50)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:16)(cid:38)(cid:57)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:20)(cid:26)(cid:24)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:45)(cid:56)(cid:39)(cid:42)(cid:40)(cid:3)(cid:42)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:54)(cid:43)(cid:58)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:39)(cid:53)(cid:36)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:3)
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`(cid:3)
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`(cid:3)
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`(cid:3)
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`(cid:46)(cid:40)(cid:49)(cid:49)(cid:40)(cid:55)(cid:43)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:42)(cid:36)(cid:47)(cid:47)(cid:50)(cid:3)
`(cid:53)(cid:36)(cid:60)(cid:48)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:39)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:44)(cid:48)(cid:53)(cid:50)(cid:39)(cid:3)
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`(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:38)(cid:43)(cid:36)(cid:53)(cid:39)(cid:3)(cid:58)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:58)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:40)(cid:3)
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`(cid:49)(cid:72)(cid:90)(cid:3)(cid:60)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:78)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:72)(cid:90)(cid:3)(cid:60)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:78)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:3)
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`ttorneys for Cross-Appellants
`(cid:51)(cid:40)(cid:55)(cid:40)(cid:53)(cid:3)(cid:54)(cid:36)(cid:49)(cid:39)(cid:40)(cid:47)(cid:3)
`Everlight Electronics Co., Ltd.
`(cid:39)(cid:36)(cid:49)(cid:44)(cid:40)(cid:47)(cid:3)(cid:45)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:46)(cid:47)(cid:40)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:3)
`and Everlight Americas, Inc.
`(cid:51)(cid:36)(cid:56)(cid:47)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:58)(cid:40)(cid:44)(cid:54)(cid:54)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:41)(cid:46)(cid:44)(cid:49)(cid:39)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:58)(cid:43)(cid:36)(cid:53)(cid:55)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:3)
`(cid:9)(cid:3)(cid:42)(cid:36)(cid:53)(cid:53)(cid:44)(cid:54)(cid:50)(cid:49)(cid:3)(cid:47)(cid:47)(cid:51)(cid:3)
`(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:27)(cid:24)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:89)(cid:72)(cid:81)(cid:88)(cid:72)(cid:3)(cid:82)(cid:73)(cid:3)(cid:87)(cid:75)(cid:72)(cid:3)(cid:36)(cid:80)(cid:72)(cid:85)(cid:76)(cid:70)(cid:68)(cid:86)(cid:3)
`(cid:49)(cid:72)(cid:90)(cid:3)(cid:60)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:78)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:72)(cid:90)(cid:3)(cid:60)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:78)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:28)(cid:3)
`(cid:11)(cid:21)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:12)(cid:3)(cid:22)(cid:26)(cid:22)(cid:16)(cid:22)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:3)
`ttorneys for Defendants-Appellants
`Nichia Corporation and Nichia
`America Corporation
`
`(cid:3)A
`
`(cid:3)
`
`(cid:3)A
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`(cid:3)(cid:16)
`
`(cid:3)(cid:38)
`
`NICHIA EX2025
`
`

`

`
`
`4:12-cv-11758-GAD-MKM Doc # 510 Filed 04/30/15 Pg 57 of 161 Pg ID 41233Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 445 Filed: 12/27/2016
`
`57
`
`In
`These are some excerpts from the patent.
`Yes.
`A.
`Column 8 they are saying a highly efficient white light
`emitting device, LED, can simply and economically -- there
`we go -- be fabricated using solid state emitting device for
`generating a shorter wavelength, which is transmitted through a
`luminophor.
`That's their term in the patent for a phosphor.
`Down conversion here -- forgot to highlight it --
`yield white light.
`Then also, in Column 7, they talking about an LED
`emitting blue light, packaged with fluorescent materials,
`phosphors.
`Phosphors change color, some of the light, and you
`get white light.
`Q.
`And just for the record, on slide 74, we have Column 8,
`lines 18 to 25 of Plaintiff's Exhibit 11, and Column 7 and
`lines 19 to 27 of the same exhibit.
`THE COURT:
`What exhibit number is this one?
`MR. TRAUPMAN:
`Plaintiff's Exhibit 11, your Honor.
`THE COURT:
`Could you identify the exhibit
`numbers, because that's kind of helpful.
`MR. TRAUPMAN:
`I thought I had already.
`
`I
`
`apologize.
`
`If you did, I must have missed it.
`THE COURT:
`MR. TRAUPMAN:
`Well, I'm sure it was my mistake.
`THE COURT:
`All right.
`(By Mr. Traupman, continuing)
`
`So if, Dr. Bretschneider,
`
`Q.
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`A017581
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`NICHIA EX2025
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`

`

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`
`4:12-cv-11758-GAD-MKM Doc # 510 Filed 04/30/15 Pg 58 of 161 Pg ID 41234Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 446 Filed: 12/27/2016
`
`58
`
`What's a
`
`it refers, the Baretz patent refers to a luminophor.
`luminophor?
`They're trying
`A.
`Again, that's their term for a phosphor.
`to use a very broad, general claim.
`It's just something that
`emits light.
`Q.
`So further down in the second blowout you have of Column
`7, it refers to fluorescent organic and/or inorganic
`fluorescers and phosphors, what's -- particularly focusing on
`inorganic fluorescers and phosphors, what is being referred to
`there?
`A.
`These are inorganic powdered materials, what we would
`typically call phosphors.
`A.
`So to summarize, the Baretz patent discloses using what
`color LED.
`A.
`Blue.
`Q.
`With what color phosphor?
`A.
`Yellow.
`Q.
`To get what color LED?
`A.
`White.
`It's -- they talk
`Q.
`Actually, let me go back one more.
`about down conversion, down here.
`Do you see that,
`Dr. Bretschneider?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`What does it refer to when you say down converted or down
`conversion?
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`A017582
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`NICHIA EX2025
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`

`

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`4:12-cv-11758-GAD-MKM Doc # 510 Filed 04/30/15 Pg 76 of 161 Pg ID 41252Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 460 Filed: 12/27/2016
`
`76
`
`does the inventors, there's Mr. Tadatsu and Dr. Nakamura, say
`are the effect of their invention?
`A.
`Here, this is paragraph nine, they're saying that
`depending on the phosphor you do, you can get conversion of
`light to a number of different wavelengths and you can use this
`to basically change the color of the LED or make a color
`correction.
`And if you're talking about conversion of light to
`Q.
`Okay.
`a number of different wavelengths, what does that tell you as a
`person of ordinary skill in the art?
`A.
`That's saying to a broad number, a broad range of
`wavelengths, and one of the ways in the industry we talk about
`white light is equal energy at all wavelengths, so this is very
`clear, put everything in and you will get white.
`Q.
`Again, the color of the LED is what, Dr. Bretschneider, in
`the Tadatsu patent application?
`A.
`It's blue.
`Q.
`Getting to white, right?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`So what color is the fluorescent dye or pigment?
`A.
`The easiest way is to have it emit yellow light.
`Q.
`And so did you analyze the validity of the claims of the
`'925 patent in light of the Tadatsu application?
`A.
`Yes.
`I detailed that in my report.
`Q.
`Did you perform an element by element analysis of the
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`A017600
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`NICHIA EX2025
`
`

`

`
`
`4:12-cv-11758-GAD-MKM Doc # 510 Filed 04/30/15 Pg 78 of 161 Pg ID 41254Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 461 Filed: 12/27/2016
`
`78
`
`So
`
`which you also have up here on the slide?
`A.
`Again, these are other reference points where they're
`talking about a fluorescent dye or a fluorescent pigment.
`again, they are talking about phosphors in multiple places.
`Q.
`And just to be clear, on the left-hand side of this slide
`you're showing what?
`A.
`This is the parts of Claim 1 that are relevant and then we
`get to Claim 2 itself.
`Q.
`And then on the right-hand side of all these slides, what
`are you showing?
`A.
`This is where the elements are listed in, in this case,
`the Tadatsu patent.
`Q.
`In prior art references?
`A.
`In prior art references, yes.
`Q.
`And so what does that mean if these limitations are in the
`prior art references?
`A.
`That the claim should be invalid.
`Q.
`So if we go to the next slide, slide 95, that's the second
`limitation here on the left-hand side of the alleged invention
`of the '925 patent.
`It says, wherein said light-emitting
`component comprises a nitride compound semiconductor
`represented by the formula up there on the screen, what's your
`opinion about that limitation, whether or not it's disclosed in
`the Tadatsu patent?
`A.
`It's very clear in the Tadatsu patent, going back to Claim
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`A017602
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`NICHIA EX2025
`
`

`

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`
`4:12-cv-11758-GAD-MKM Doc # 510 Filed 04/30/15 Pg 79 of 161 Pg ID 41255Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 462 Filed: 12/27/2016
`
`79
`
`If you
`1, they give this formula for gallium aluminum nitride.
`look at the formula in Claim 1, if you say I is 0, you're left
`with the gallium aluminum nitride, and those formulas are
`identical.
`So if you go down to the limitation that is added
`Q.
`Okay.
`by Claim 2, which is a light-emitting device according to --
`oh, excuse me -- yes, a light-emitting device according to
`Claim 1 wherein the phosphor used contains a yttrium aluminum
`garnet fluorescent material containing Y and AL.
`What is your
`opinion with respect to this limitation?
`A.
`I believe it's met.
`It's not explicit in Tadatsu, but
`again, you have to take into account what one of ordinary skill
`in the art would know and be aware of.
`Once you have the
`wavelength of the LED when it's blue, there is a short list of
`phosphors that emit blue light and if you -- or sorry -- absorb
`blue light, and if you want to make white, if that's your color
`correction, you need yellow.
`And that really narrows things
`down and you very quickly get to YAG.
`So anyone doing a
`search --
`Sorry.
`Q.
`Go ahead.
`A.
`-- would come across Blasse and Bril, also the Hoffman
`article and the Philips article.
`And there's very clear
`And
`teachings about using YAG with a blue light source here.
`again, this is very close to -- this is right in the range of
`the LED wavelengths that they're talking about.
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`A017603
`
`NICHIA EX2025
`
`

`

`
`
`4:12-cv-11758-GAD-MKM Doc # 510 Filed 04/30/15 Pg 80 of 161 Pg ID 41256Case: 16-1577 Document: 62-1 Page: 463 Filed: 12/27/2016
`
`80
`
`So to be clear, you're referring to Plaintiff's 142,
`Q.
`Blasse and Bril; Plaintiff's 143, Hoffman at page 91; and
`Plaintiff's 14, which is Philips, at Column 3, lines 9 to 17;
`is that right, Dr. Bretschneider?
`A.
`Yes, that's correct.
`Remind us what Mr. Tadatsu and
`Q.
`Let's go back a second.
`Shuji Nakamura said you could do with their blue LED.
`A.
`Convert light to a number of wavelengths or do color
`correction of the LED.
`Q.
`Using what?
`A.
`Using a phosphor.
`Q.
`So if you wanted to make a white LED, but with a blue
`light source, where would a person of ordinary skill in the art
`look?
`A.
`They would know they would have to have a phosphor that
`emits yellow.
`Q.
`And how would they know that you have to have a phosphor
`that emits yellow?
`A.
`Again, we can go back to the color wheel that has been
`known for over 300 years, blue, we need yellow.
`And in the
`middle, you get white.
`Q.
`So for the record, what would have been the motivation to
`combine the teachings of the Tadatsu patent application with
`any of these YAG-related prior art references you have here on
`slide 96?
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`A017604
`
`NICHIA EX2025
`
`

`

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`Again, the patent is talking about changing the light to a
`A.
`number of wavelengths or a color correction.
`If you are
`starting with blue and you want to make a different color, this
`is telling you to add a phosphor and just use what Isaac Newton
`taught us all 300 years ago.
`Q.
`So if we go on to Claim 3, Claim 3 requires that wherein
`the phosphor is a fluorescent material represented by the
`general formula that's shown up here on slide 98.
`Again, can
`you remind us what compound, among others, is within that
`formula, Dr. Bretschneider?
`A.
`YAG.
`Q.
`So what is your opinion with respect to the validity of
`Claim 3 in light of the Tadatsu patent application?
`A.
`Again, I think it would be obvious.
`It's not explicit,
`but it's very easy once you know the emission wavelengths of
`the LED, what phosphors you're going to have to use, and then
`knowing your color correction, what you want to change it to.
`If you want white, you need yellow.
`And as we have discussed
`quite a bit before, starting with blue, wanting yellow is going
`to get you very, very quickly to YAG.
`And the same three
`references, the Blasse and Bril, Hoffman, and Philips, all
`teach YAG.
`Q.
`And again, is the motivation to combine these same three
`references any different for Claim 3 as it is for Claim 2?
`A.
`It's no different.
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`You're
`So hopefully we can move things along.
`Okay.
`Q.
`showing the same reference as you did for Claim 5, the two
`phosphor claim?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`That's Blasse and Brill, Plaintiff's Exhibit 148?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Any difference in your analysis for Claim 6 as it was for
`Claim 5?
`A.
`No difference.
`Q.
`And again, same thing with Claim 8, it requires how many
`phosphors?
`A.
`Two phosphors.
`Q.
`Who kind of phosphors?
`A.
`YAG phosphors and different amounts of gadolinium.
`Q.
`And again, you're showing here the same reference,
`Plaintiff's Exhibit 148, Blasse and Bril, is the analysis for
`the two phosphors specifically called out for Claim 8 any
`different for the other two phosphor claims?
`A.
`No.
`And it's very clear here, this phosphor has
`gadolinium, this doesn't, and that's two different amounts.
`Q.
`And again, is the motivation to combine for any of these
`two phosphor claims any different from the motivation to
`combine you talked about earlier?
`A.
`No, there is no difference.
`Q.
`So again, just to summarize now, the Tadatsu patent
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`application, when was it published relative in time to the
`filing date of the '925 patent?
`A.
`More than three years before.
`Q.
`And it takes what color light source?
`A.
`Blue.
`Q.
`And it makes what color LED?
`A.
`White.
`Q.
`It uses what color phosphor?
`A.
`A yellow phosphor.
`Q.
`Okay.
`We can put the '925 patent off to the side,
`Dr. Bretschneider, unless --
`A.
`Ah.
`Q.
`Why don't we call up Plaintiff's Exhibit 4, rather than
`your slide here, just to show the jury.
`This document should be familiar.
`what this document is, Dr. Bretschneider?
`A.
`Yes.
`This is the '960 patent.
`Q.
`This is the other Nichia patent that we're dealing with
`here for the next week-and-a-half or so; is that right?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And this is the other Nichia patent that you analyzed in
`forming your opinions on validity here today, right,
`Dr. Bretschneider?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q.
`And when did Nichia file its application for the '960
`
`Can you tell us
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