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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ________________________________________________
` MICROSOFT CORPORATION
` Petitioner
` v.
` BRADIUM TECHNOLOGIES LLC
` Patent Owner
`
` Case IPR2016-00448
` Case IPR2016-00449
`
` Patent No. 7,908,343
` Patent No. 8,924,507
` ________________________________________________
`
` Oral Deposition of PEGGY ARGOUIS, Ph.D,
` taken at the Law Offices Andrews Kurth Kenyon
` LLP, 1350 I Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington,
` D.C., beginning at 9:25 a.m., on Friday, January
` 13, 2017 before Ryan K. Black, a Registered
` Professional Reporter, Certified Livenote Reporter
` and Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia.
`
` Job No. 2513060
` Pages 1 - 220
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Microsoft Corp. Exhibit 1018
`
`

`

`2513060-1
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` Representing - Microsoft Corporation
` PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: EVAN S. DAY, ESQUIRE
` MATTHEW BERNSTEIN, ESQUIRE
` 11988 El Camino Real
` Suite 350
` San Diego, California 92130
` 858.720.5721
` eday@perkinscoie.com
` mbernstein@perkinscoie.com
`
` Representing - Bradium Technologies LLC
` ANDREWS KURTH KENYON LLP
` BY: CHRISTOPHER J. COULSON, ESQUIRE
` One Broadway
` New York, New York 10004
` 212.425.7200
` ccoulson@kenyon.com
`
`Page 2
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` I N D E X
` TESTIMONY OF: PEGGY ARGOUIS, PH.D PAGE
` By Mr. Day................................4, 217
` By Mr. Coulson...............................192
`
` E X H I B I T S
` EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
` Exhibit 1014 A Wikipedia article on
` IEEE 802.11(a)................63
`
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` Whereupon,
` PEGGY ARGOURIS, Ph.D.,
` called to testify, having been first duly sworn
` or affirmed, was examined and testified as
` follows:
` MR. DAY: I'm Evan Day, from Perkins
` Coie, representing the petitioner, Microsoft, in
` this proceeding, along with Matt Bernstein, also
` from Perkins Coie.
` And, Chris, if you want to introduce
` yourself for the record?
` MR. COULSON: My name is Chris
` Coulson, with Andrews Kurth Kenyon, representing
` patent owner, Bradium.
` EXAMINATION
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. All right.
` Good morning, Dr. Argouis.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. I'm going to go through a few of the
` standard instructions for a deposition. Now,
` some of this you may have heard before. I
` understand you've been deposed before, but,
` you know, these instructions are helpful for
` us to get through these proceedings and avoid
`Page 4
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` confusion in the record.
` Since we are recording this
` deposition, it's being transcribed by the court
` reporter, but we don't have a videographer or
` anything like that here, I want to make sure
` that your responses are reflected clearly in
` the record. So if I ask you a question, try
` to verbalize the answer clearly, yes or no, as
` opposed to uh-huh or nodding.
` A. Like that? Yes.
` Q. Exactly.
` A. Not like that.
` Q. Right. And note for the record you
` were nodding, --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- so that would be something that the
` reporter wouldn't catch.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. I think both of us -- I'd like to ask
` you to try and wait for me to finish my question
` before you respond, and, at the same time, I
` will do my best to avoid talking over you so
` that our -- so that, you know, my questions and
` your answers are -- again, that they're clear
` in -- in the transcript.
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`Microsoft Corp. Exhibit 1018
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`

`

`2513060-1
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` A. Okay.
` Q. And if there's any uncertainty that
` you have, if you don't understand a question
` that I've asked, I'd ask you to ask me to
` clarify the question and tell me what it
` is that's unclear about the question.
` A. Okay.
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Additionally, you know, we'll probably
` take a few breaks during this deposition. And
` if you need to take a break at any time, just,
` you know, let -- let your -- your counsel and
` myself and the court reporter know. The only
` things that I would ask are that we not take any
` break while there's a question pending, and that
` you not discuss the substance of your testimony
` with counsel during the breaks.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Are -- you understand those -- those
` instructions?
` A. I do.
` Q. And are you able to follow those
` instructions?
` A. I will.
`
`Page 6
`
` Q. Now, have you been deposed before?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. How many times?
` A. I want to say two. I think it's been
` two -- no, three, actually. Because there was
` one a while ago. Yeah, I think three.
` Q. And were those in regard to
` litigation?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What were the names of the cases?
` A. That's a good question. Let me think.
` The first one was a case against the
` railroad. That was years ago. And the second
` one was a case of Polaroid versus Hewlett
` Packard. And the third one was Image Processing
` against Canon.
` Q. Canon, --
` A. Yeah.
` Q. -- the camera company?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Were all those patent infringement
` matters or some other type of case?
` A. Well, the first one, I think it was
` an accident -- well, actually, I know it was
` an accident, and I was rendering an opinion
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` based on imagery that existed which would
` give information about the conditions that
` -- the conditions that existed during the
` accident.
` That was not in a patent case. The
` other two were.
` Q. All right. And in the Polaroid versus
` HP case, which party were you retained by in
` that case?
` A. Polaroid.
` Q. And were they the plaintiff in that
` case?
` A. Yes.
` Q. They were alleging the patent
` infringement against someone else?
` A. Against Hewlett Packard.
` Q. Okay. And in that Polaroid case, was
` your role in regard to infringement or validity
` or both or some other issue?
` A. Well, all I remember, and I'll tell
` you all I remember, I was an expert in my field
` and I rendered an opinion. And I don't remember
` -- it's been years, I don't remember exactly
` what it was in terms of the legal aspect of it.
` Q. And do you recall what law firm
`Page 8
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` retained you in that case?
` A. Yes. Kirkland & Ellis.
` Q. Okay. And in that second case, the
` Canon case, do you recall who the -- the -- the
` adverse party was?
` A. By adverse party you mean?
` Q. Sorry. I'm using a legal term again.
` A. Yeah. It's okay.
` Q. Who was against Canon in that case?
` A. Image Processing Corporation, I think,
` was the name of entity.
` Q. And were you retained by the attorneys
` representing the plaintiff or the defendant in
` that case?
` A. Image Processing Lab, --
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- yeah.
` Q. Okay. So in both of those cases,
` you were retained by the plaintiff?
` A. Mm-hmm. Sorry.
` Q. And how many years ago was that Image
` Processing case?
` A. I'm not sure. Several years ago.
` It was -- yeah, it was a few years ago.
` Q. And what law firm retained you for
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` that case?
` A. Was it Kenyon -- Kenyon & Kenyon, or
` something, I think.
` Q. Was Mr. Coulson involved in that case?
` A. Yes, he was.
` Q. Okay. And what subject matter did you
` testify on in the Image Processing case?
` A. In my area of expertise, which is
` image processing, --
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- and related topics, yes.
` Q. Okay. So you'd characterize your area
` of expertise as image processing?
` A. No. My area of expertise is wider
` than that, but in that particular case, because
` the topic was in that area, that was the
` expertise that I offered.
` Q. Have you ever provided trial
` testimony?
` A. No, I have not.
` Q. And have you ever been retained and
` provided expert opinions in any other litigation
` matters?
` A. No. To the best of my recollection,
` no.
`Page 10
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` Q. So those three cases that
` we talked about earlier, the -- the railroad
` accident case and those two patent matters,
` the Polaroid versus HP and then the Image
` Processing versus Canon, those are the only
` instances where you've provided assistance in
` a litigation matter?
` A. Well, these were the cases I wrote an
` expert report, and I was deposed for these
` cases.
` Q. Okay. And I just want to make this
` clear from my previous question, so are those
` the only cases where you've written an expert
` report?
` A. I believe so.
` Q. Okay. When were you first retained by
` Mr. Coulson's firm on behalf of Bradium in this
` case?
` A. I'm sorry. I don't remember.
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't remember
` exactly when it was. It was a while ago.
` I don't remember exactly.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. So when you say a while ago, I mean,
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` would that be more than a year?
` A. I'm not sure.
` Q. Were you retained before -- do
` you know if you were retained before or after
` Bradium -- let me restart that question.
` At the time you were retained, were
` there already proceedings pending at the Patent
` Office to invalidate the Bradium patents?
` A. I don't know. I don't remember.
` Q. When did you first start performing
` work for Bradium on this matter?
` A. I think it was a few months ago, but
` I'm not sure.
` You have to understand, this is
` not my regular job. My job is really
` very demanding, so I don't remember exactly.
` Q. Okay. Would that have -- before this
` summer?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Now, did you start working on this
` case immediately after you were retained, or
` was there some -- was there some lag time
` between when you -- I assume you signed some
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` sort of agreement and then you started working
` on the case?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, let me try to
` remember.
` Probably. There usually is some sort
` of time before I dedicate my time into something
` like this, but I don't remember exactly the
` interaction or anything else that had occurred
` during that time, like, when and how -- no,
` sorry, when.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Have you been asked to perform any
` tasks for Bradium, other than preparing your
` declaration for these IPRs?
` MR. COULSON: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: What do you mean other
` tasks?
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Well, so, I mean, I'm aware that you
` submitted declarations with respect to two inter
` partes reviews that have been instituted, as
` well as another -- as well as a declaration for
` another petition for inter partes review, which
` is pending an institution decision. Have you
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` performed any work for Bradium other than those
` matters?
` MR. COULSON: Objection. In that form
` it calls for work product. And in its current
` form, I'd instruct the witness not to answer
` that question.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Are you going to follow that
` instruction?
` A. Yes, I will.
` Q. You mentioned in both of your
` declarations that you're being compensated
` at your customary rate. What is that rate?
` A. $500 an hour.
` Q. Do you have any -- is there any
` additional compensation that you're receiving
` in addition to hourly compensation?
` A. No.
` Q. How much time would you estimate that
` you've spent on this matter relating to Bradium?
` And when I say that, although there are separate
` Patent Office proceedings, I'm, you know,
` referring to your whole engagement with Bradium.
` How much time do you think you've spent on that?
` A. I'm not sure.
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` Q. More than 50 hours?
` A. I'm not sure. I haven't even really
` recorded some of these things yet.
` Q. What do you mean you haven't recorded
` some of these things yet?
` A. I mean to provide to ask for
` compensation yet. So I'd have to go back and
` check my records for that, and I don't have it
` off the top of my head.
` Q. But you do have records that would
` indicate how much time you've spent on this
` matter?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I try to reflect
` that to the best of my ability when I'm billing
` for my work.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Had you ever heard of Bradium before
` you were first approached by counsel to work on
` this matter?
` A. No.
` Q. Had you ever heard of 3DVU before you
` were asked to work on this matter?
` A. What do you mean 3DVU?
` Q. Are you -- you're not familiar with
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` that company name?
` A. Nope.
` Q. Okay. So even now, as you're sitting
` in your deposition, you're not aware of what --
` the names 3DVU Limited or 3DVU, Inc., are not
` something you're familiar with?
` A. No. You asked 3DVU, and 3DVU could
` be a technical term. That was my -- my
` -- sorry, I have -- my answer -- my question.
` Q. Okay. And just to clarify that, 3DVU
` would be spelled out three, and then the letters
` D-V-U. And there would be one company named
` 3DVU Limited and a 3DVU, Inc. And is it your
` testimony that you're not familiar with either
` of those entities?
` A. I don't remember. Have I included
` something like this in my report?
` Q. I mean, I would have to -- I'd have to
` do a search in your report, but as of right now
` the question is if you have any familiarity with
` those?
` MR. COULSON: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. How about GA Central or Gacentral.com?
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` A. I don't remember.
` Q. Flyover Technologies, do you have any
` familiarity with an entity by that name?
` A. I don't remember.
` Q. Have you ever spoken to Isaac Levanon?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever -- have you spoken
` with anyone affiliated with Bradium, other than
` counsel in this matter?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember.
` I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Now, are all of the materials that you
` reviewed in order to provide your opinion in
` this case identified in your declaration?
` MR. COULSON: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I reviewed a lot
` of materials, as you probably can tell. And to
` the best of my ability, I included the ones that
` I thought were more appropriate in my
` declaration.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you a few
` questions about your background. And before we
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` go any further, we'll just draw your attention
` to the binders that are sitting in front of you.
` A number of the exhibits that have already been
` submitted in this proceeding, not necessarily
` all of them, but some of them are in those
` binders. And the two declarations that you
` provided in the -- in the -- the two instituted
` IPR proceedings are in that second binder.
` So if you want to refer to anything in
` your declaration, those two declarations are
` both available for you at any time, if you want
` to refer to them.
` A. Okay. Thanks.
` Q. So -- and as I recall it, you attached
` your curriculum vitae to your expert declaration
` in both cases for the '343 patent and the '506
` patent; is that right?
` A. I believe so.
` Q. What experience do you have writing
` software for mobile devices?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I have experience
` writing software that is related to imagery,
` and it usually depends on the platform that we
` intend to apply it to. So we try to keep our
`Page 18
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` communication ways open. So I'm not really
` sure that I remember exactly which platforms
` I have written software for.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. When you say, we try to keep our
` communication ways open, what do you mean by
` that?
` A. What I mean is that I am an academic
` and a researcher, so depending on the problem
` I'm trying to solve, I will consider the best
` way of displaying and communicating this
` information. And that includes a variety
` of modalities of communication.
` Q. Can you give me any specific examples
` where you've written software that is intended
` to be operated on a mobile or portable device?
` A. Well, considering the trajectory
` that location-based services has taken over the
` years, the majority of the work that we do has
` to take into consideration devices which are not
` static and desktop.
` So in that sense, I have -- the
` algorithms I developed had to take into
` consideration that, as well.
` Q. Okay. So I want to make sure that --
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` that I understand that answer that -- that --
` that you just gave, and I apologize for breaking
` eye contact, because we have the transcription
` here.
` A. Please.
` Q. But as I understand that -- I'm going
` to try and, you know, see if I understand that
` answer correctly. When you say that we have to
` take into consideration other devices, so would
` it be fair to say that what you're describing
` there when you say that, you know, you're
` -- you'd be talking about writing algorithms
` that might work on other devices, that some
` of the processing algorithms that you would be
` involved with, you know, might be written at a
` high level and then expected to work on mobile
` devices?
` A. I'm not sure I understand the
` question.
` Can you help me a little bit more with
` that?
` Q. Okay. Well, and I'm just trying to
` understand your answer here, too, so, I mean,
` can you give me any specific example where
` you've written software or designed an algorithm
`Page 20
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` that was specifically intended for a mobile
` device?
` A. Well, as I said, I mean, we don't
` have the luxury of keeping our algorithms
` desktop anymore with the availability of
` all these options and all this demand for
` location-based services in our mobile devices,
` so the algorithms we develop have to take into
` consideration the constraints that are imposed
` by that.
` Q. So let me come at this another way.
` You might be writing an algorithm in an academic
` setting that might not be specifically written
` for a mobile device, but you try to write it in
` such a way that the algorithm might still work
` if -- if it was -- if someone chose to run it on
` a more limited device?
` A. No. Not really. Every environment
` has its own constraints and its own
` particularities, and depending on the problem
` at hand we try to address them.
` And over the years we have
` realized more and more the need for development
` of approaches that are limited in certain ways
` to devices that are handheld has become obvious,
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`Microsoft Corp. Exhibit 1018
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` so we modified our approaches this way.
` Q. Okay. And, I mean, would it be fair
` to say that that's been a fairly strong trend in
` the industry, the need to modify approaches
` for -- to be able to operate on more limited
` devices, and I think you said that that was
` obvious that that was a trend?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I want to correct
` something. I -- it's not -- I didn't -- I
` didn't mean that we modified existing ones.
` I meant we modified our thinking and our
` aspects of importance in our development to suit
` platforms like this. And this hasn't been as
` obvious as you think it might have been, and
` definitely it has been gaining importance later,
` rather than earlier. But I'd like to think that
` my lab and my people were pioneers in the sense
` that they realized some of those things earlier.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. And what do you mean by earlier?
` A. I mean earlier temporally.
` Q. Earlier temporally?
` A. It means that -- you know, before
` others.
`Page 22
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` Q. Like around what time would you be
` talking about?
` A. Well, I've been doing this for many
` years. I cannot really pinpoint exactly the
` date, but I would say it's been several years.
` Q. Okay. Have you ever written software
` specifically for Windows CE or Windows Mobile
` operating systems?
` A. I don't remember.
` Q. And can you give me any examples
` where you've written software for the Android
` operating system?
` A. I don't think I have.
` Q. How about IOS, the operating system
` that the iPhone and iPad use?
` A. I don't think I have.
` Q. Have you written software that's
` designed to operate as a Javascript?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, this is a general
` platform. I mean, yes, I have.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Okay. Well, what examples can you
` give?
` A. Well, they are related to software
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` that has to do with the work that I've done,
` which is communicating information which is
` image-based.
` Q. Okay. Now, for your analysis,
` specifically, of this case and the '343 and the
` '506 patents, what do you understand the
` relevant field of art to be in this case?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Can you make it a little
` bit more specific? I'm not sure I understand.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. I'll back it up.
` A. Mm-hmm.
` Q. Have you prepared for your deposition
` today?
` A. What do you mean prepared?
` Q. Well, what did you do to prepare for
` your deposition today?
` A. Well, how can I prepare for a
` deposition? I mean, it's based on knowledge
` that I have. So, in that sense, I don't know
` what else to tell you.
` Q. I mean, did you -- so -- and I
` assume that you reviewed the documents before
` you submitted your declaration -- your
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` declarations a few months ago. But specifically
` to prepare to testify today, have you recently
` reviewed any of those documents again?
` A. Well, honestly, I didn't have much
` time to prepare specifically for this
` proceeding.
` Q. Okay. Understood.
` And did you meet with Mr. Coulson or
` any other attorney from Bradium prior to your
` deposition today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When was that?
` A. It was for a few hours I think the
` past few days, the past -- it was -- today's
` Friday. Yeah, it was for a few hours over a
` day-and-a-half.
` Q. Okay. And did you review the patents
` that are at issue in the two Inter Partes Review
` proceedings that we're here to talk about in
` order to prepare for your deposition today?
` A. Sorry. Can you repeat that question,
` please?
` Q. So I just want to make sure we have a
` common understanding, and your counsel may have
` talked about this, I don't want to know what you
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`Microsoft Corp. Exhibit 1018
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` talked about, but is it your -- your
` understanding that we are here today to talk
` about the declarations that you provided in
` regard to two U.S. Patents, and let make sure
` I get the numbers here right, 7,908,343 and
` 8,924,506?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you've reviewed those two
` patents to prepare for your deposition today?
` A. Well, as I said, I'm sorry, I didn't
` have much time to go over the materials that I
` had submitted, so I reviewed the materials when
` I prepared my declaration.
` Q. Okay. What's your understanding of
` what the relevant field of art is for those two
` patents?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` Foundation.
` THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm -- what do
` you mean the -- the -- can you give me a little
` bit more specific question?
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. What's your understanding of
` the general subject matter that those two
` patents refer to?
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` MR. COULSON: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Well, it is -- I mean,
` probably -- well, this is -- let me -- let me
` think how to answer your question.
` The broad field is related to
` digital imagery. That's how I view this.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. You would characterize these as
` digital imagery patents, at a high level?
` MR. COULSON: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm talking about
` the area or the field -- the general field,
` and you have to remember I'm an academic, so our
` fields are defined broadly and within which one
` we have multidisciplinary aspects. So I would
` view these patents as multidisciplinary, in the
` sense that they contain several facets, but they
` deal with digital imagery, which is relevant to
` me.
` BY MR. DAY:
` Q. Okay. And you would agree that,
` in the context of these patents, that digital
` imagery relating to geographic information
` systems is at least one aspect of it?
` A. Well, there is geographic information
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` in imagery, yes.
` Q. Okay. And could trans -- woul