UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.,
`Petitioner
`V.
`UNILOC LUXEMBOURG S.A.,
`Patent Owner
`_______________
`
`Case No. IPR2017-01801
`Patent No. 8,995,433
`
`***************************************
`ORAL DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. EASTTOM
`AUGUST 6, 2018
`***************************************
`
`Reported By: Susan Foreman
`Job No: 144981
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`SAMSUNG EXHIBIT 1041
`Samsung Electronics America, Inc. v. Uniloc Luxembourg, S.A.
`IPR2017-01800
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`Page 1 of 34
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.,
`Petitioner
`V.
`UNILOC LUXEMBOURG S.A.,
`Patent Owner
`_______________
`
`Case No. IPR2017-01801
`Patent No. 8,995,433
`
`***************************************
`ORAL DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. EASTTOM
`AUGUST 6, 2018
`***************************************
`
`Reported By: Susan Foreman
`Job No: 144981
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`SAMSUNG EXHIBIT 1041
`Samsung Electronics America, Inc. v. Uniloc Luxembourg, S.A.
`IPR2017-01800
`
`Page 1 of 34
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.,
` Petitioner
` V.
` UNILOC LUXEMBOURG S.A.,
` Patent Owner
` _______________
`
` Case No. IPR2017-01802
` Patent No. 7,535,890
`
` ***************************************
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. EASTTOM
` AUGUST 6, 2018
` ***************************************
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` ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. EASTTOM,
`produced as a witness at the instance of the Petitioner, taken
`in the above-styled and -numbered cause on the 6th day of
`August, 2018, at 8:51 a.m., before Susan M. Foreman, a
`Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, at
`the Renaissance Dallas at Plano Legacy West Hotel, located at
`6007 Legacy Drive, Plano, Texas 75024, in the City of Plano,
`County of Collin, and State of Texas, in accordance with the
`agreement hereinafter set forth or in accordance with the
`Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.
` MR. PHILLIP CITROEN, ESQ.
` MR. MICHAEL WOLFE, ESQ.
` MR. JOSEPH POLYS, ESQ.(VIA TELEPHONE)
` PAUL HASTINGS
` 875 15th Street Northwest
` Washington, DC 20005
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER UNILOC LUXEMBOURG S.A.
` MR. RYAN LOVELESS, ESQ.
` ETHERIDGE LAW GROUP
` 2600 East Southlake Boulevard
` Southlake, TX 76092
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` I N D E X
` PAGE
`Appearances.................................... 4
`
`WILLIAM C. EASTTOM
` Examination by Mr. Citroen............... 6
` Examination by Mr. Loveless.............. 31
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`Reporter's Certificate......................... 33
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM,
`having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. CITROEN:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Welcome back.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. I'm going to go ahead and just hand you some
`documents, this one... So I just handed you two documents.
`Can you tell me what those documents are?
` A. The first one was U.S. Patent 8,995,433 B2. And the
`second was U.S. Patent 7,535,890, also B2.
` Q. Okay. And is it okay with you if we refer to U.S.
`8,995,433 as the '433 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And does that document have a label in the
`bottom right-hand corner?
` A. Yes. It says Samsung Exhibit 1001.
` MR. CITROEN: Okay. And just for the record,
`that's Exhibit 1001 in proceeding IPR 2017-01801.
` Q. And then the second document, is it okay if we refer
`to U.S. 7,535,890 as the '890 patent?
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is that document labeled in the bottom right-hand
`corner as well?
` A. Yes. It is also labeled Samsung Exhibit 1001.
` MR. CITROEN: Okay. And just for the record,
`this document, Exhibit 1001, is Exhibit 1001 in proceeding IPR
`2017-01802.
` Q. I'm going to hand you two more documents, Mr.
`Easttom. Can you tell me what that document is once you've had
`a chance to look at it?
` A. Well, the first one appears to be my declaration in
`reference to the '433 patent.
` Q. Okay. Is there an exhibit number on that document?
` A. It says Uniloc's Exhibit Number 2001.
` MR. CITROEN: Okay. And just for the record,
`that's Exhibit 2001 in IPR 2017-1801.
` Q. And then I'm going to hand you one more document. If
`you can tell me what that is once you've had a chance to look
`at it.
` A. It appears to be my declaration in reference to the
`'890 patent.
` Q. Okay. And is there an exhibit number for that
`document that you see?
` A. It is also Uniloc's Exhibit Number 2001.
`
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` MR. CITROEN: Okay. And for the record, that's
`Exhibit 2001 in IPR 2017-1802.
` Q. Okay. Just for the record, can you go ahead and
`state your full name and address.
` A. William Charles Easttom, II. The address is 5605
`Woodspring Drive, Plano, Texas.
` Q. Thank you.
` And I know we just had a deposition on Friday,
`but just to refresh our memories, let's try not to talk over
`each other, and please answer verbally to all the questions.
`If you don't understand a question, please ask me to clarify or
`to restate the question.
` And is there any reason you cannot testify
`completely, truthfully, and accurately today?
` A. No, not at all.
` Q. Okay. And you understand you're under oath?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Okay. So you understand you're here this morning to
`testify with respect to the two declarations you have in front
`of you, the '890 declaration and the '433 declaration?
` A. That's my understanding, yes.
` Q. Okay. Did you prepare for today's deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how did you prepare?
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` A. Primarily by rereading the declarations, rereading
`the relevant patents, and rereading the asserted prior art.
` Q. Okay. And about how much time did you spend
`preparing for the deposition?
` A. Well, there are, as you know, three depositions
`connected. It's very difficult to tease out what was on one or
`the other. Total document reading time, around 12 hours, but
`that's across the patents.
` Q. Okay. And did you have any meetings with counsel
`with respect to this deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And when was that meeting or those meetings?
` A. It was one meeting for all of these depositions, and
`I believe it was by phone last Monday.
` Q. Okay. And how long was that meeting?
` A. About an hour, hour and a half maybe.
` Q. Okay. And who did you speak with during that
`meeting?
` A. Mr. Loveless.
` Q. Okay. Did you prepare any further for this
`deposition between your deposition on Friday and the deposition
`today?
` A. I reread these two declarations.
` Q. Okay.
`
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` And "these two," you mean the '890 declaration
`and the '433 declaration?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. Did you speak with anyone else to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A. Not to prepare, but Mr. Loveless did contact me about
`a scheduling issue, I believe, that you guys arose with him.
` Q. Okay. Other than the two declarations and the other
`documents that you identified, have you reviewed any other
`documents to prepare for today's deposition?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you recall if you reviewed the institution
`decisions with respect to the '433 patent and the '890 patent?
` A. They're amongst the documents I have available to me.
`I don't have a specific recollection of reading them, but I
`very well may have.
` Q. What about the patent owner preliminary responses in
`the two proceedings that we're discussing this morning?
` A. Those also, I believe, are in my documents, and at
`some point had to have been reviewed, but as I said, I read
`everything in the folder.
` Q. Okay.
` A. But I don't specifically remember having that
`document in front of me.
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` Q. And the same question for the patent owner responses,
`did you review those documents before today's deposition?
` A. The same answer. I have a folder with all documents
`related to an IPR. I do read them all at least once, but they
`-- those documents you're referencing don't stand out in my
`mind as having particular attention.
` Q. Okay. In your declarations before you, the '433 and
`the '890 declarations, do you list the documents that you
`considered while preparing your declarations?
` A. I believe in these declarations, the documents are
`referenced as they become analyzed. For example, I'm looking
`at page 17 with Exhibit 1001 and the specific elements of that
`exhibit, and it's referenced there. When I get to page 19, I
`specifically reference Griffin and Zydney, and that continues
`throughout. So the documents are listed at the point at which
`they're introduced to the analysis.
` Q. Which declaration were you looking at just now?
` A. I am looking at the '433, but I believe the '890
`follows a similar pattern.
` Q. Okay. Before you look at the '890, paragraph 4, I
`believe, appears to have a list of references that you
`considered. Is that true?
` A. Yes, these are the primary references. I didn't see
`that in my review. It lists, of course, the IPR petition
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`itself, the declaration in this case with Dr. Haas, the
`references, Zydney and Griffin, a declaration by -- sorry, I'm
`going to mispronounce this gentleman's name -- Dr. Dieuliis.
`And also -- I think those are the ones mentioned in that
`specific paragraph. Any others would be brought in as needed
`in the analysis.
` Q. Do you recall when you reviewed Dr. Dieuliis'
`declaration?
` A. I don't have the specific recollection. Obviously,
`before the date of finishing this declaration of my own.
` Q. Okay. And why did you review that declaration in
`preparing your own?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. Well, it's been about a year, so I'm trying to
`remember. I think I just had asked for every document at all
`related to this patent, and I just wanted to look at them all.
` Q. Okay. Did you agree with everything that
`Dr. Dieuliis stated in his declaration for the 1428 proceeding
`that's listed here?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. I don't believe part of my analysis was to agree or
`disagree with Dr. Dieuliis.
` Q. Okay. I think so.
` A. Dr. Dieuliis. My apologies to the doctor if I'm
`
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`doing it wrong.
` I simply wanted to see what he had said. I
`don't believe I took a position of agreement or disagreement.
`As we go through my declaration, if the opinions agree with
`his, okay. If they don't, that's also okay.
` Q. Are there any documents that you considered that are
`not listed here in paragraph 4?
` A. I don't have a specific recollection now, but as we
`go through, there may be others referenced within the body of
`the declaration.
` Just to be clear, I reviewed everything that was
`presented to me, but not everything was relevant to my
`analysis, so not everything needed to be listed or included. I
`read some documents, and it turns out that they have no bearing
`on my analysis. They're relevant to some other aspect of the
`case that doesn't involve me.
` Q. Okay. So you recall that we had a deposition on
`Friday, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you recall that deposition was related to the
`'622 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And before you, you have the '433 patent and
`the '890 patent. Is it your understanding that those three
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`patents are related?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that those three
`patents share the same specification?
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by "share the same
`specification."
` Q. Do you know what a specification -- a patent
`specification is?
` A. I don't know the legal meaning of the term.
` Q. Okay. The content of the patents, other than the
`claims, if I refer to that as a specification, do you
`understand what I'm referring to?
` A. Oh, yes.
` Q. Okay. So your understanding that the specification
`of the '622, '433, and '890 patents are the same?
` A. Well, to be honest, if you give that definition, I'm
`sitting here looking in front of me, and the abstracts are
`immediately different.
` Q. Okay. Do you know of any other differences?
` A. I don't know that I made a point to analyze what was
`the same or different. I just analyzed each patent in and of
`itself.
` Q. Okay. But it is your understanding that these are
`related patents?
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` A. Related, yes.
` Q. Do you know what a continuation patent is?
` A. Yes, I have a few of my own.
` Q. Okay. Can you explain what your understanding is of
`a continuation patent?
` A. Well, you file a patent application. Again, I'm
`giving you a technical understanding. I don't understand the
`legal nuances. You file a patent application and a patent is
`granted. And then later there is some variation, some
`extension, something whereby an additional patent is granted
`from the same initial application.
` Q. Okay. And you understand that the -- the '622 patent
`and the '433 patent are a continuation -- let me see -- of the
`'890 patent, part of a chain of continuation to the '890
`patent?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. I know they're continuation patents. I don't,
`sitting here today, have an immediate recollection of which one
`was first or which ones were continuations.
` Q. Okay. If it's helpful, it's also on the cover there
`of each of the patents.
` Are you aware that there are other patents that
`are in the chain of continuation related to the '622, '433, and
`'890 patents?
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` A. I believe that's the case.
` Q. Okay. And are those U.S. Patent 8,199,747 and
`8,243,723?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. They might be. I don't have an exact memory of the
`patent number sitting here.
` Q. Okay. That's fine.
` So if you can go to the '890 patent that's in
`front of you.
` A. I have it in front of me.
` Q. Okay. If you can just look at figure 2 together.
` A. I have it in front of me.
` Q. And can you just tell me what your understanding is
`of what's illustrated in figure 2 of the '890 patent?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. Just a moment. I am trying to refresh my memory in
`my declaration as to where I opined on that figure. I don't
`have a specific recollection now, so I'll have to refresh my
`memory briefly.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Well, I can't find in my declaration where I
`specifically discussed it. I'll see if there's a good
`description right here within the patent itself. It's usually
`best to see exactly what the patent inventor said as opposed to
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`paraphrasing their words.
` Well, under brief description of the drawings in
`column 6, the inventor states: Figure 2 illustrates an
`exemplary local IVM system for enabling instant voice messaging
`according to the present invention.
` And sitting here today looking at figure 2, that
`looks to me like an accurate description.
` Q. What's your understanding of the description of
`System 2000 as being local?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. Local would be within a local area network as opposed
`to being accessed over the internet.
` Q. Okay. So looking at figure 2 is a local IP network
`204. That would not be the internet in this figure?
` A. No, it's clearly labeled as the local IP network.
` Q. So what kind of networks might that include?
` A. Well, at the time of the original patent application,
`that could have been a Uninex-based network; it could have been
`a Microsoft-based network, a Novel-based network, but a network
`contained within some boundaries, usually defined by some sort
`of gateway between the local network and the outside world and
`the internet.
` Q. Okay. Let's take a look at figure 5. I just have a
`similar question.
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` What is your understanding of what's illustrated
`in figure 5 of the '890 patent?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. One moment, please.
` Q. Sure.
` A. There is some brief discussion of this in my
`declaration towards the end of paragraph 31, where I discuss
`some of the elements, such as chat messages 500, which I think
`the 500 would indicate they're probably related to this. I
`don't see figure 5 specifically discussed in my declaration.
`But looking at it here, it appears to be the global IVM
`example.
` Q. Okay. Just quickly, the chat messages 500, I believe
`that's referring to Griffin, just to make sure we're on the
`same page.
` A. Oh.
` Q. Feel free to take a look if you disagree, but I just
`want to make sure we're talking about the same document. I was
`asking you about the '890 patent.
` A. I think you're correct.
` Q. Okay.
` A. So I don't have a reference to figure 5 of this
`patent anywhere in my declaration; but sitting here looking at
`it, it appears to be the global exemplary IVM system.
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` Q. And just comparing figure 2 and figure 5 of the '890
`patent, do you agree what's shown in figure 2 is also
`identified in figure 5 or shown in figure 5 as local IVM system
`510, which is identified by the dashed box?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form and scope.
` Q. Do you understand my question?
` A. Yes, I understand the question.
` I'm looking at the two diagrams. Again, I don't
`recall opining on this in my declaration; but looking at it
`here today, it does appear to be the case.
` Q. Okay. So you stated that figure 5 is the global IVM
`example. What do you mean by "global"? What would a person of
`ordinary skill in the art have an understanding of what is
`meant by "global"?
` A. Well, looking at the figure itself, it identifies an
`element of 102, which is IP network internet. The network is a
`global network accessible, at least hypothetically, from
`anywhere in the world.
` Q. Okay. So looking at local IP network 204, that's the
`same local IP network we were discussing with respect to figure
`2, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And what is IP network 102?
` A. It's clearly labeled as the internet.
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` Q. And is the -- is the IP network 102 external from the
`local IP network 204?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. It's an interesting question because it is certainly
`possible to set up a local network that's directly connected
`into the internet. That's not the usual, but it's possible.
`And I don't have a specific recollection of the '890 patent or
`my declaration specifically discussing a barrier between the
`two. There could be. There might not be.
` Q. If local IP network 204 was directly connected to the
`IP network 102, would the IP network 102 not be external to the
`local IP network 204?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` A. Well, again, I don't recall opining on that issue in
`my declaration. Feel free to refresh my memory if I'm missing
`something. I haven't analyzed that question previously. I
`don't believe it was pertinent to my deliberations. But to
`answer a hypothetical, could be. It certainly could be.
` Q. What's your understanding of "external network"?
` A. Well, again, most definitions only have a meaning
`within context, so just sitting here with no context, no
`reference to any analysis I've done, in general, there was some
`demarcation point between the inside and the outside. Now, the
`exact nature and function of that demarcation point would be
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`contingent on the specific implementation.
` Q. What about in the context of the field of the alleged
`invention of the '890 patent, what would be the understanding
`of the term "external network"?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` A. Well, again, I don't recall opining on this in my
`declaration; but in general, it would be, again, some
`demarcation point. Now, the reason this is fuzzy is because as
`we go back in time, those demarcation points have changed.
`Today, the demarcation point is typically a router with both
`firewall and network address translation capabilities built
`into the router.
` If I were to go back to 1998, that demarcation
`point is very likely to be a server with what we call a dual
`homed configuration. That means it has two network interface
`cards, one facing the local network, one facing the outside
`world. And that's part of the reason for the ambiguity in
`demarcation point. You have lots of servers on your network,
`presumably. You could hypothetically have hundreds if you
`wished. And here we have one, and its main difference is two
`network cards, and the demarcation point is just which
`direction one is facing. That's why the term "demarcation
`point" is a bit ambiguous.
` Q. What about the time of the '890 patent? So let's
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`assume that's December 2003. What would be the understanding
`to a person ordinarily skilled in the art of the term "external
`network"?
` A. Well, again, it's that demarcation point. And in
`2003, it would have been a time period with the most ambiguity.
`Because if we're talking today, I can virtually guarantee it's
`the router I described.
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. If we're talking 1990s, I can virtually agree it's
`that dual homed server. In the early 2000s, I saw both in
`practice.
` Q. Okay. So it's your opinion that the term "external
`network" at the time of the alleged invention is ambiguous?
` A. No.
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I said it is outside a demarcation point. What I
`said was the demarcation point, the exact nature of the
`demarcation point is ambiguous. But the term "external" is
`not.
` Q. Okay. So the determination of whether something is
`external based on demarcation point would be ambiguous?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` Q. I'm just trying to understand.
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` A. Sure. The issue becomes if, using, say, that dual
`homed server, I have other servers on my network presumably, at
`least a domain controller and potentially others. Those are
`clearly inside my network. If I visit Samsung's website,
`that's clearly outside my network unless, of course, I'm at
`Samsung.
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. Where is that dual homed server? Is that internal or
`external? So, in general, I could definitively say all the
`things this side of the demarcation point are internal. All of
`the things this side are external. That's definitive, no
`ambiguity. But where is the demarcation point itself? Is it
`an internal or external resource or a little bit of both?
`That's the ambiguity point.
` Q. Okay. Looking at figure 5 again, there's another
`network identified as 504, an identified local IP network. Do
`you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And can you tell me what a person ordinarily skilled
`in the art would understand local IP network 504 to be?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` A. I don't recall having discussed this in my
`declaration. Again, feel free to refresh my memory if I'm
`misremembering. However, simply looking at figure 5 in front
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`of me and forming an opinion based on what it clearly says,
`it's a second local network somewhere other than the primary
`one shown in 510.
` Q. Okay. And let me just ask: So do you believe you
`did not consider figure 5 in the corresponding portions of the
`specification in rendering your opinions in the '890 and '433
`declarations?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. In forming my opinion, I read the entire patent, as
`well as many other documents we've already discussed, every
`word of it. However, when I form my opinion, I form my opinion
`on specific issues that were detailed with the specific
`supporting criteria in my declaration. That is where the bulk
`of my analysis went, and that's where my opinions stem from.
` If we would like to investigate hypotheticals
`that did not directly impact my analysis, we can, but those
`answers won't be based on the lengthy, careful analysis that
`went into my declaration. They will be off the cuff and prone
`to inaccuracy.
` Q. Okay. So I haven't asked you any hypotheticals. I'm
`just asking about figure 5. So I just want to understand
`whether you considered figure 5 in the disclosure that
`corresponds to figure 5 in rendering your opinions.
` A. I certainly saw it. I certainly examined it. But,
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
`again, the best place to see my opinions and the bases thereof
`is in my declaration. Just curious if the second day of
`deposition will ever actually look at it.
` Q. If figure 5 is not cited in your declaration, does
`that mean you did not consider it?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form.
` A. No. That means it wasn't necessary to form the basis
`of the opinions expressed. Again, I considered every element
`of the patent in question, but my declaration contains those
`focal points. My understanding, not as an attorney, is the
`point of my declaration, is to allow you to see what my
`opinions were so you could examine them and to see what the
`bases were. So rather than include every word and figure from
`the patent, which would be redundant and not helpful to you, I
`gave you that information in the declaration that's most
`relevant to my opinions and what I believe the purpose of the
`declaration was to discuss.
` Q. Okay. So local IP network 504, you said, is a second
`local network somewhere other than the primary one shown in
`510. Is that accurate?
` A. That is what appears to be depicted in figure 5.
` Q. Is it okay if I refer, just to facilitate our
`discussion, the local IVM system labeled as 510, as local
`system 1, and then the second IP network 504 as local system 2?
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` A. Yes, that's fine.
` Q. Okay. So from the perspective of IVM client 208 in
`local system 1, would local system 2 be an external network?
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` A. It could be.
` Q. And why could it be?
` A. Well, again, I don't believe the '890 nor my
`declaration explore this particular possibility; but giving an
`off-the-cuff answer based on the figure, it's possible that
`local network 2 has no other connection to local network 1
`other than over the internet, in which case it would be
`external. It's also possible that local network 2 is a
`business partner, and they have set up some sort of extra net
`connection wherein local network 1 has a direct connection to
`local network 2. Both of those are possible. I believe that's
`not explored or discussed in either the patent or in my
`declaration.
` Q. In the context of the '890 patent, is it fair to say
`that in the scenario we just discussed, that if local IP
`network 504 is outside -- let me strike that. Because we were
`using local system 1 and 2. Let me stick to that.
` So from the perspective of the 208 IVM client in
`local system 1, is it fair to say that local system 2 would be
`an external network if it is outside local system 1?
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` WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, II
` MR. LOVELESS: Objection, form, scope.
` A. If it is outside the demarcation point and if there
`is no other connection directly connected, then it certainly
`could be.
` Q. I apologize for rehashing what we've already
`discussed, but can you just explain what you mean by
`demarcation point in the context of the '890 patent around
`December 2003 to a person ordinarily skilled in the art?
` A. Certainly. There is some point at which my local
`resources come to an end and external resources begin. Now, in
`a best-case scenario, there is a very clear demarcation point.
`There's a router, presumably, that has network address
`translation, firewall capabilities, all sorts of things. My
`local network uses private IP addresses. The outside world
`uses public. I mean, there's another clear difference. And
`it's a trivial matter for one of ordinary skill in the art to
`see exactly where the local ends and the outside begins.
` However, there are a lot of peer-to-peer systems
`that blur that. You have a local internal system that directly
`connects to an external resource, that
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