Transcript of Timothy Buss
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`Date: February 8, 2018
`Case: Pfizer, Inc. -v- Genentech, Inc. (PTAB)
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`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
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`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING | INTERPRETATION | TRIAL SERVICES
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`Pfizer v. Genentech
`IPR2017-01488
`Genentech Exhibit 2040
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
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` APPEARANCES
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`FOR PATENT OWNER GENENTECH, INC.:
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`WILMERHALE
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`BY: ROBERT GUNTHER, ESQUIRE
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`7 World Trade Center
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`250 Greenwich Street
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`New York, New York 10007
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` _____________________________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` _____________________________
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` PFIZER, INC.,
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` Petitioner,
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` v.
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` GENENTECH, INC.,
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` Patent Owner.
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` _____________________________
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` Case IPR2017-01488
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` Case IPR2017-01489
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` Patent 6,407,213
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` _____________________________
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` VIDEO DEPOSITION OF TIMOTHY BUSS
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` FEBRUARY 8, 2018
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`Reported by: Margaret A. Smith, CSR #9733, RPR, CRR
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`FOR PATENT OWNER GENENTECH, INC.:
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`WILMERHALE
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`BY: ANDREW H. LE, ESQUIRE
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`950 Page Mill Road
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`Palo Alto, California 94304
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`650.858.6010
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`andrew.le@wilmerhale.com
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` APPEARANCES (continued):
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`FOR PETITIONER PFIZER, INC., AND THE DEPONENT:
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`KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP
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`BY: BENJAMIN LASKY, ESQUIRE
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`601 Lexington Avenue
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`New York, New York 10022
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`212.446.6415
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`blasky@kirkland.com
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` I N D E X
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`EXAMINATION PAGE
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`BY MR. GUNTHER 7, 148
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`BY MR. LASKY 138
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`DEPOSITION EXHIBIT:
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`Exhibit 2056 - Expert Declaration of Edward Ball, 21
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` Partes Review of Patent No. 6,407,213
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`Exhibit 2057 - Document entitled "About HNCs and 30
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` HNDs - SQA"
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`Exhibit 2058 - Redline document 85
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` (Exhibits 2056 to 2058 are bound separately under
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` nonconfidential cover)
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` (Previously marked Exhibits 1001, 1004, 1021, 1048, 1504,
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` 1069, and Paper No. 27 were referenced and are bound
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` separately under nonconfidential cover.)
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`FOR PETITIONER PFIZER, INC., AND THE DEPONENT:
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`KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP
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`BY: KAREN L. YOUNKINS, ESQUIRE
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`333 South Hope Street
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`Los Angeles, California 90071
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`213.680.8140
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`karen.younkins@kirkland.com
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`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Christian Teare
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`ALSO PRESENT: Wendy L. Hsu
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`

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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
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`firm.
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` TIMOTHY BUSS,
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`having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
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`as follows:
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` EXAMINATION
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`BY MR. GUNTHER:
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` Q Good morning, Mr. Buss.
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` A G o o d m o r n i n g . A G o o d m o r n i n g .
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` Q Have you been deposed before?
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` A N o . A N o .
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` Q Okay. So this is your first time?
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` A I t i s m y f i r s t t i m e . A I t i s m y f i r s t t i m e .
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` Q Okay. And have you ever acted as an ex- --
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`expert witness in a litigation matter prior to today?
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` A N o . A N o .
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` Q Okay. Now, I'd like to ask you when you were
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`first retained for this matter.
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` A I d o n ' t r e c a l l p r e c i s e l y , b u t i t w o u l d h a v e A I d o n ' t r e c a l l p r e c i s e l y , b u t i t w o u l d h a v e
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` VIDEO DEPOSITION OF TIMOTHY BUSS, taken on behalf
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`of The Patent Owner, at 2137 Pacific Highway, San Diego,
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`California, commencing on Thursday, February 8, 2018, at
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`8:49 a.m., before Margaret A. Smith, Certified Shorthand
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`Reporter, CSR No. 9733, RPR, CRR.
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`b e e n a t l e a s t a y e a r a g o - -b e e n a t l e a s t a y e a r a g o - -
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` Q Okay.
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` A - - p o s s i b l y m o r e . A - - p o s s i b l y m o r e .
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` Q All right. And when you were retained, who
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`were you retained by?
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` A I was contacted by Kirkland and Ellis.
` Q Okay. And is your agreement with Kirkland and
`Ellis, or with Pfizer?
` A With Kirkland and Ellis.
` Q Okay. And -- and who first contacted you in
`terms of your retention in this matter?
` A You know, I can't recall. It might have been
`Stefan. Yeah, I don't actually recall.
` Q Okay.
` A I spoke with several different people at
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`Kirkland and Ellis.
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` Q Did -- to your knowledge, did Dr. Foote suggest
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`that you be an expert in this case?
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` A Not to my knowledge.
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` Q Okay. Do you know how it came to be that you
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`became a candidate to be an expert in this matter?
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` A No, I don't know that.
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` Q Okay. Now, when you were retained, can you
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`tell me about how -- well, let me do this. Let me --
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`let me mark your declarations, hand you your
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`declarations. They have already been marked.
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` A Thank you.
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` Q So I -- we're handing you two documents -- the
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`first is a document that has previously been marked as
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`Pfizer Exhibit 1004, which is your declaration in the
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`1234567891
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`San Diego, California; February 8, 2018; 8:49 a.m.
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` VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are on the
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`record. This is the videotaped deposition of Timothy
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`Buss, taken in the matter of Hospira, Inc., versus
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`Genentech, Inc. It's a U.S. Patent Office case
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`IPR2017-01488 and 89.
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`and the time is 8:49 a.m.
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` Today's date is Thursday, February 8th, 2018,
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` My name is Christian Teare, a legal video
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`specialist, representing Planet Depos.
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` This video deposition is taking place at the
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`Hilton Garden Inn, 2137, Pacific Highway, in San Diego,
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`California. The certified shorthand reporter is Maggie
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`Smith with Planet Depos.
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` If counsel would please state their
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`appearances, the reporter will swear in the witness.
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` MR. LASKY: My name is Benjamin Lasky from
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`Kirkland & Ellis for Pfizer, Inc., and the witness. And
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`just for the record, the petitioner in these IPRs is
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`Pfizer, not Hospira.
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` With me today from Kirkland and Ellis is Karen
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`Younkins, and from Pfizer, Wendy Hsu, H-s-u.
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` MR. GUNTHER: And for the patent owner,
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`Genentech, Bob Gunther and Andrew Le of the WilmerHale
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
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`with 1488 IPR.
` And I'd ask you to take a look at that and just
`confirm for me that that is in fact your declaration in
`this matter.
` A Yeah.
` Q All right. And if you look at the last page,
`page 40 --
` A Yes.
` Q -- that's your signature, and it indicates that
`you -- you executed the report on May 22nd, 2017.
`Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Now, as you sit here today, is there
`anything that you'd like to correct or -- or change in
`connection with your declaration?
` A No, there isn't.
` Q Okay. Can you tell me approximately -- using
`May 22, 2017 as the sort of end date, the date that you
`actually signed the declaration. Can you tell me,
`backing up from there approximately how many months
`before that you were retained.
` A I honestly can't recall.
` Q Okay. And when you were retained, were you
`informed -- strike that.
` When you were retained, did you learn that
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` A I did.
` Q Okay. And did you -- were you given copies of
`the references that are cited in the Ball declaration?
` A I was.
` Q Okay. And did you read each one of those --
` A I --
` Q -- prior -- just, I'm sorry. I -- and I'm not
`great at this either. It's one of my faults. I'll try
`not to step on you if you try not to step on me, okay,
`in terms of speaking.
` A Sure.
` Q So -- so in terms of the exhibit, the
`references that are cited in Dr. Ball's declaration, you
`were given copies of those. Correct?
` A I was.
` Q And prior to signing your declaration on
`May 22, 2017, you reviewed those. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Now, let me just -- so we have them both
`in front of us -- mark as exhibit -- show you what has
`been previously marked as Pfizer Exhibit 1504. And this
`is your declaration in the 1489 IPR. And my question
`is -- my question, frankly, is whether you can confirm
`that this is in fact your declaration in the second IPR
`that was also executed on May 22, 2017.
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`Mylan had previously filed an IPR preceding against the
`'213 patent?
` A Yes, I knew that.
` Q Okay. And were you provided certain papers
`with respect to the Mylan IPR?
` A I believe what I was presented with -- with was
`the declaration that was submitted by Dr. Ball.
` Q By Dr. Ball?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. And do you -- do you recall were you
`giving any other papers from the Mylan IPR?
` A I do not believe so.
` Q Okay. And prior to receiving Dr. Ball's
`declaration, were you asked to -- to independently form
`any opinions with respect to the validity or invalidity
`of the '213 patent?
` A No.
` Q Okay. So you started -- your starting point --
`is it fair to say that your starting point was
`Dr. Ball's declaration?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Were you given a Word version of that
`declaration?
` A I believe so.
` Q Okay. And then did you edit it?
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` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And that's your signature, again, on
`page 40 of the declaration --
` A Yes.
` Q -- correct? All right.
` And is there anything -- look -- focusing on
`Exhibit 1504, is there anything that you would want to
`correct or change with respect to that declaration?
` A No.
` Q Okay. And, sir, in terms of Dr. Ball's
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`declaration, you utilized some -- some of the language
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`from that declaration. Correct?
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` A I utilized most of the language.
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` Q Okay. And in your declaration of
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`paragraph 13 -- and let's use the -- the 1004
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`declaration, just so that you and I are on the -- on the
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`same document.
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` In paragraph 13, your declaration, you say --
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`this is about three quarters of the way down the
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`paragraph. "Readers of this declaration may note the
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`language and organization is similar to that of
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`Dr. Ball's declaration because it did not seem a
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`necessary expenditure of resources to rewrite the
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`material which I independently confirmed as" --
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`accepting -- "acceptable and correct." Right?
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
`13
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` A Yes.
` Q Okay. All right. And you stand by that
`statement. Right?
` A Yes.
` Q And as a matter of fact -- well, we'll come
`back to it. So your -- your process in terms of the
`work that you did in connection with this case is that
`you were -- after you were retained, you were given
`Dr. Ball's declaration as a Word document, you were
`given the documents cited in that declaration, you
`reviewed Dr. Ball's declaration in those documents, and
`wherever you agreed with Dr. Ball, you basically just
`left the text as is. Correct?
` A Yes. I did adjust the text in places just
`where I thought it could be made a little bit clearer.
` Q Okay.
` A A little bit less ambiguous.
` Q Okay. But for the most part -- so, for
`example, obviously, in terms of the background section,
`you had to change that because you -- you're talking
`about your background --
` A Yes.
` Q -- not his. Right?
` A Yes.
` Q And in terms of -- you made some changes. And
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` Q Okay. So it's fair to say you relied entirely
`in terms of your declaration on -- on literature that
`was presented in Dr. Ball's declaration. Correct?
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q You can answer.
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Now, you know that Dr. Foote has also
`submitted a declaration in these IPR proceedings.
`Right?
` A Yes.
` Q And -- and you are -- you know him from --
`prior to this case. Correct?
` A Correct.
` Q In fact, you were colleagues at -- in
`Dr. Winters' lab. Right?
` A Yes.
` Q And you were also colleagues in Dr. Foote's lab
`at Hutchison. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q How long have you known Dr. Foote?
` A Since 1991.
` Q Okay. And how long -- how many years have you
`actually worked with him as a colleague?
` A Approximately 12.
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`we'll go -- we'll talk about this in terms of the person
`of ordinary skill in the art. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q But then in terms of the actual substance of
`the declaration, in terms of the substantive paragraphs
`and the references that were cited, most of that, you
`left unchanged in -- in terms of Dr. Ball's declaration
`and used his -- his language. Correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Okay. Did you ever talk to Dr. Ball?
` A No.
` Q Did you ever ask to talk to Dr. Ball?
` A No.
` Q Do you know who he is?
` A No.
` Q Okay. Had you ever heard of him --
` A No.
` Q -- prior to this case? Okay.
` Did you do what -- attempt to do any diligence
`to determine his reputation in the field?
` A No, I didn't.
` Q Have you performed any of your own search of
`the literature in connection with any of the work that
`you've done in this matter?
` A No.
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` Q Okay. And in fact you list Dr. Foote as a
`personal reference on your C.V. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you -- do you view him as a mentor?
` A Yes. I've learned a lot while working in his
`lab.
` Q Okay. And do you know whether he had any --
`anything to do with you being involved in this case?
` MR. LASKY: Objection. Asked and answered.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
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` Q And if I asked that, I apologize, but indulge
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`me on this one. Can you answer it again.
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` A Yeah. I have no knowledge.
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` Q Okay. Have you spoken to Dr. Foote in
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`connection with your work on this case?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. And tell -- can you tell me how many
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`times you've spoken with him in connection with your
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` A Once.
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` Q All right. When -- and when was that?
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` A That was when we were determining the -- the --
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`who would be ordinary -- ordinary skilled in the art --
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` Q Okay.
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` A -- definitions.
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
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` Q Okay. And when -- when did you have that
`conversation with him, as best you -- was it a
`conversation?
` A It was a telephone conversation.
` Q Okay.
` A With counsel.
` Q Understood. And when was that conversation
`approximately?
` A I can't recall the date.
` Q All right. Was it prior to the time that you
`signed your declarations on -- was it -- I think it's
`May 22nd, 2017?
` A It would have been, yes.
` Q Okay. And -- and about how long was that
`conversation? Do you recall?
` A 15 or 20 minutes.
` Q Okay. And -- and since then, you've -- you've
`had no contact with him at all with respect to either
`this case or -- or other matters since then?
` A I have no contact with him regarding this case
`or any other scientific case, no.
` Q Okay. Have you had any contact with him just
`in terms of, you know, friendship, that type of thing,
`since -- since that call?
` A Yes.
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` A Yes.
` Q -- of a person of ordinary skill in the art.
` And when you actually get to paragraph 30, you
`talk about your understanding in terms of Dr. Foote's
`opinion with respect to a person of ordinary skill in
`the art related to the '213 patent --
` A Yes.
` Q -- right?
` Now, help me understand this. Did you -- did
`Dr. Foote come to the conclusion of what a person of
`ordinary skill in the art would be or should be in this
`matter, and then you -- you listened to what he said and
`then agreed with it?
` A That would be right.
` Q All right. Did you have any -- do you recall
`any sort of discussion or debate between the two of you
`as to whether or not Dr. Foote's definition of a person
`of ordinary skill in the art in this case was correct?
` A I believe we discussed it on the phone call,
`but I agreed with his -- his -- his decision --
` Q Okay.
` A -- about what would constitute somebody of
`ordinary skill in the art.
` Q And just -- and just to make sure I have sort
`of the -- the sequence correct, Dr. Foote came up with
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` Q Okay. And -- and -- and just to make sure I've
`kind of covered the waterfront, is -- am I correct that
`during those contacts, subsequent to the telephone
`conversation that you've been testifying about, there
`was no discussion of this case. Is that correct?
` A None whatsoever.
` Q Okay. What -- what's your best recollection of
`the discussion you had with Dr. Foote about a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` A We discussed the -- the level of experience
`that would be required, the qualifications that would be
`required.
` Q Okay. Can you remember anything more specific
`than that?
` A It's -- it's pretty much laid down in the -- in
`the submission here --
` Q Okay.
` A -- what we discussed and what we decided would
`be relevant to the case.
` Q Okay. And you -- if you look at -- and see if
`we can get to that -- that -- I think it's around
`paragraph 29 in your declaration. And we're staying
`with Exhibit 1004.
` And so if you actually look at paragraph 28, I
`guess, is where -- where -- where the discussion --
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`what he believed was an appropriate definition of a
`person of ordinary skill in the art with respect to the
`'213 patent in this matter. You and -- you and he
`discussed it. And after that discussion, you agreed
`with -- with his formulation of the person of ordinary
`skill in the art. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Do you recall him making any changes to
`his view of what a person of ordinary skill in the art
`should be based on the discussion that you and he had?
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` A I do not believe there were any changes.
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` Q Okay. Did you talk about what -- whether the
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`definition was in any way different than the definition
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`that Dr. Ball had come up with?
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` A We didn't discuss that.
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` Q Okay. Do you know, sir, whether or not the
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`definition of a person of ordinary skill in the art that
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`Dr. Foote has adopted and that you've agreed to in your
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`declaration, do you know whether there's any difference
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`between that and the -- the definition of the person of
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`ordinary skill in the art, set forth in Dr. Ball's
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`declaration?
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` A There would be differences, yeah.
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` Q Okay. Do you recall what those differences
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
`21
`
` A I don't recall.
` Q Okay. Do you recall -- but do you recall
`considering those differences prior to signing your
`declaration in May of 2017?
` A No, I didn't.
` Q Okay. Why don't we mark Dr. Ball's
`declaration. And I guess -- it's got a previous marking
`on it. So we will -- yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So
`let's do this. Dr. Ball's declaration is from the Mylan
`IPR against Genentech relating to the '213 patent was
`marked in that proceeding as Exhibit 1004. So that we
`have it also marked as an exhibit in this proceeding,
`we're going to mark it as Exhibit 2056 in -- in this
`proceeding. I'll ask the court reporter to mark that.
` (Exhibit 2056 was marked for identification.)
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q Thank you. And you've got a copy of that in
`front of you?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q Okay. Great. So maybe I'll just leave this
`with you, then. And what I would ask you to do, if you
`can is keep -- you've got your declaration open to the
`paragraph --
` A Mm-hmm.
` Q -- we've been talking about?
`
`6 (21 to 24)
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`little bit different. Isn't it?
` A It is.
` Q And if you look at your discussion of that, in
`paragraph 30 of your declaration, Exhibit 1004, you, in
`adopting Dr. Foote's definition of the person of
`ordinary skill, say "The person would have" had --
`"would have a Ph.D. or equivalent (for example,
`knowledge gained through the 4-5 years of work
`experience)." Right? So Dr. Foote -- under Dr. Foote's
`definition, which you adopted, the person could have a
`Ph.D. or equivalent knowledge. And that's different
`from Dr. Ball's definition in which he basically said
`the person would have a Ph.D. and he doesn't talk about
`equivalent knowledge. Right?
` A Correct.
` Q Do you know why Dr. Foote made that
`distinction?
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
` THE REPORTER: Was there an answer?
` MR. LASKY: You can answer.
` MR. GUNTHER: Yeah. Sorry.
` THE REPORTER: Excuse me.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I believe that Dr. Foote
`believed the declaration of Dr. Ball was not accurate.
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`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` And if you can look at -- starting at about
` Q And did you have a discussion with Dr. Foote
`paragraph 36 of Dr. Ball's declaration on -- it begins
`about that?
`on page 17. And you can see he's talking about the
` A We -- I don't recall having a discussion with
`person of ordinary skill in the art.
`him about that, but I can say that the -- a Ph.D. is --
` Do you see that?
`is not necessary for this type of work, and, you know, I
` A I do.
`can say that the first ever humanized antibody generated
` Q Okay. Now, if you look over on page --
`by Jones, Jones did not have a Ph.D. Yet, he made the
`paragraph 38, Dr. Ball says I -- "I understand that a
`first humanized antibody.
`person of ordinary skill in the art related to the"
` Q And Jones was, of course, working with
`'213 -- "'213 patent would be part of a team that
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`Dr. Winter. Right?
`developed antibody therapeutics. This person would have
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` A Yes.
`held a Ph.D. in chemistry, biological chemistry or a
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` Q -- Dr. Winter is one of the named papers on the
`closely related field or an M.D. with practical academic
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`Jones paper -- named authors on the Jones -- sorry.
`and/or industrial experience in antibody development."
`14
` THE REPORTER: Yeah, we'll want to go back.
` Do you see that?
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` A I do.
` MR. GUNTHER: I'll start again. I'll start
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`again.
` Q So he basically -- and he goes on and
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`BY MR. GUNTHER:
`elaborates a little bit. But he's basically saying the
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` Q Dr. Winter is one of the named authors on the
`person would have either had a Ph.D. in chemistry,
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`Jones paper. Correct?
`biological chemistry or related field, or an M.D.
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` A Yes.
`Correct?
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` A That's what he says.
` Q And Dr. Winter was directing Jones in his re-
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`in -- in the work that was being done. Correct?
` Q Okay. Now, Dr. Foote, in -- in what you -- the
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` A Yes.
`declaration -- your declaration, you adopt Dr. Foote's
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` Q Dr. Jones didn't come up with the idea to
`statement of a person of ordinary skill. And that's a
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
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`humanize an antibody; that was Dr. Winter. Right?
` A I --
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form. Calls for
`speculation.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q If you know.
` A Yeah. I -- I couldn't answer that. I don't
`know.
` Q Okay. Is it fair to say that Dr. Jones -- or
`sorry -- Mr. Jones, because he was not a Ph.D. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Is it fair to say that he was what we would
`refer to as a lab technician?
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
` THE WITNESS: No, I would say he was not just a
`lab technician.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q Okay. All right. You think he was more than a
`lab technician at the time of the work that led to the
`Jones paper?
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q Okay. Now, when you were actually write --
`editing the Ball declaration with respect to the
`
`7 (25 to 28)
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`
` A No.
` Q Okay. And do you recall as you were -- you
`obviously reviewed the statement of the person of
`ordinary skill in the art that appears in page 30 -- in
`paragraph 30 of your -- your declaration. Right?
` A Yes.
` Q And do you recall, prior to signing your
`declaration, considering whether or not there was a
`difference between the way that Dr. Ball had set forth
`the person of ordinary skill in the art, the way that --
`that it was set forth in paragraph 30 of your
`declaration, whoever edited it?
` A No.
` Q Okay. Now, sir, if I can talk a little bit
`about your background and what -- what will help me
`is -- and I'm going to ask you to keep a couple things
`open, if you can, at the same time, because I may bounce
`around a little bit.
` So if we can keep open Dr. Ball's declaration
`to paragraph 38. But if you can at the same time take a
`look at your C.V., which is at the back of Exhibit 1004.
`I'm sorry? Oh. Thank you.
` And, sir, are you with -- are you with me?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Great. Now -- now, sir, on page 3 of 5
`
`26
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`
`paragraph on the person of ordinary skill in the art,
`did you -- do you recall thinking about the difference
`between the way Dr. Ball characterized the person of
`person of ordinary skill in the art, that is, requiring
`a Ph.D., and the way that Dr. Foote was characterizing
`it and which you adopted, which is that it could be a
`Ph.D. or equivalent?
` A I didn't edit Dr. Ball's declaration.
` Q Okay. Who did?
` A On -- on the person ordinary skilled in the
`art.
` Q Oh, I see. Okay. And do you know who did?
` A Dr. Foote came up with his definition. So I
`assume that it was Dr. Foote that edited the -- this
`part of the declaration.
` Q Okay. Do you know that, as you sit here today?
` A No.
` Q Okay. Is it possible that someone other than
`Dr. Foote actually did that edit?
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form. Calls for
`speculation.
` THE WITNESS: I do not know.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q Okay. You don't know one way or the other.
`Right?
`
`of your C.V., there's a heading at the bottom that said
`"Education." Correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And it says "HNC in Applied Biology," paren,
`animal -- I'm sorry. "Major Animal Physiology," close
`paren, 1981 to 1986, "Cambridgeshire College of Arts and
`Technology, UK." And it's -- in parentheses, it says
`now part of -- I'm probably going to mispronounce this.
`But it looks like "Anglia Ruskin University"?
` A Yes.
`0
` Q Okay. Now, sir, what is -- what is an HNC?
`11
` A It stands for Higher National Certificate.
`12
` Q Okay. And, sir, is that equivalent to a
`13
`four-year degree at a -- at a -- a college institution
`14
`in the U.K.?
`15
` A It's equivalent to a BSc, yes.
`16
` Q It's equivalent to a BSc. So this -- the HNC
`17
`would be something that is equivalent to a four-year
`18
`degree. Is that correct?
`19
` A Yes.
`20
` Q Okay. And the -- the answer that you just gave
`21
`me that an HNC is equivalent to a four-year degree at a
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`collegiate institution in the U.K., what is that based
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`on?
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` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
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`Transcript of Timothy Buss
`Conducted on February 8, 2018
`29
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`8 (29 to 32)
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`31
`
` Sorry. The date of this document is
`February 6th, 2018. And it's by a -- an organization
`called SQA.
` And one of the things it says is, under the
`second heading, it says "What is a Higher National
`Qualification"? Do you see that?
` A I do.
` Q And then at the Higher National Qualification,
`the HNC, that's the degree that you received. Correct?
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form. It calls
`for speculation.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q Okay. And it says -- it's -- it's also
`referring to another thing called an HND. Do you see
`that?
` A I do.
` Q And -- and do you know what an HND is?
` A No.
` Q Okay. That's not something you're familiar
`with?
` A I -- I heard of it, but I -- I don't know what
`it is about.
` Q Okay. And then it says "HNC and HND courses
`provide both practical skills you need to do a job and
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` THE WITNESS: It is just an alternative type of
`degree. Some institutions were not able to issue their
`degrees as BSc. And I don't -- I can't tell you why.
`It has to do with Department of Education, rules, and
`probably laws that are 100 years old about universities.
`But at the time I was doing this degree, that was the
`case. Now, it wouldn't be. Now, that degree would be
`listed as a BSc.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q It would be -- okay. And what does BSc stand
`for?
` A Bachelor of Science.
` Q Okay. Does -- am I correct that Cambridgeshire
`College of Arts and Technology is not affiliated with
`Cambridge University?
` A It is not.
` Q Okay. And during the period of time that you
`attended Cambridgeshire College of Arts and Technology,
`did -- were you taking classes during the entire period
`of 1981 through 1986?
` A Yes. This is a -- is a part-time degree
`course, as I was fully employed by the government in the
`research councils.
` Q Okay.
` A And this was the educational process, if you
`
`30
`will, for a full-time government employee that they will
`put you through and pay for. And the course consisted
`of one full day of classes each week and one full night
`of classes each week for the entire period.
` Q Okay.
` A No vacations or anything like that.
` Q Right. Right. Right.
` And -- and so you -- you enrolled in the HNC --
`and I recognize you were also working full time. But
`you enrolled in, what, the fall of 1981?
` A I can't recall exactly when --
` Q Okay.
` A -- it was.
` Q All right. But you were enrolled in 1981, took
`classes in 1981, and took classes in each of the years
`1