`
`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
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`Date: February 14, 2018
`Case: Celltrion, Inc. -v- Genentech, Inc. (PTAB)
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`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
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`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING | INTERPRETATION | TRIAL SERVICES
`
`Celltrion v. Genentech
`IPR2017-01373
`Genentech Exhibit 2039
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER CELLTRION:
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` ROBERT V. CERWINSKI, ESQUIRE
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` rcerwinski@goodwinlaw.com
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` GOODWIN PROCTOR LLP
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` The New York Times Building
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` 620 Eighth Avenue
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` New York, New York 10018
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE FOR THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`CELLTRION, INC., :
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` Petitioner, :
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` v. : Case IPR 2017-01373
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`GENENTECH, INC, : Case IPR 2017-01374
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` Patent Owner. : U.S. Patent 6,407,213
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` Deposition of LUTZ RIECHMANN
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` SARAH J. FISCHER, ESQUIRE
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` New York, New York
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` sfischer@goodwinlaw.com
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` Wednesday, February 14, 2018
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` 100 Northern Avenue
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` Boston, Massachusetts 02210
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` Job No.: 174286
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` Pages: 1 - 357
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` Reported By: Nancy Mahoney, CCR/RPR
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`A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D:
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`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER GENENTECH:
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` ROBERT J. GUNTHER, ESQUIRE
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` robert.gunther@wilmerhale.com
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` WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE & DORR LLP
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` New York, New York 10007
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` ANDREW H. LE, ESQUIRE
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` andrew.le@wilmerhale.com
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` WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE & DORR LLP
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` Deposition of LUTZ RIECHMANN, held at the
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`offices of:
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` Goodwin Procter LLP
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` The New York Times Building
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` 620 Eighth Avenue
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` Pursuant to agreement, before Nancy Mahoney,
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`Notary Public in and for the state of New York.
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` Palo Alto, California 93404
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` ALSO PRESENT:
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` Charlie Bowman, Videographer
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`

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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
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` E X H I B I T S C O N T I N U E D
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` (Attached to transcript)
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`LUTZ RIECHMANN PAGE
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` Exhibit 1003 Expert Declaration of 25
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` Lutz Riechmann, Ph.D., Case IPR
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` 2017-01373
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` Exhibit 1003 Expert Declaration of 26
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` Lutz Riechmann, Ph.D., Case IPR
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` C O N T E N T S
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`EXAMINATION OF LUTZ RIECHMANN PAGE
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`By Mr. Gunther 10
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` E X H I B I T S
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` LUTZ RIECHMANN PAGE
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` Exhibit 2053 article titled 186
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` Therapeutic Antibodies for Human
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` Diseases at the Dawn of the 21st
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` 2017-01374
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` Century by Brekke and Sandlie
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` Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent 6,407,213 47
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` Exhibit 2059 Article titled Monoclonal 190
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` Exhibit 1003A Curriculum Vitae of Lutz 64
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` Antibodies in the Detection and
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` Riechmann, Ph.D.
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` Therapy of Micrometastatic Epithelial
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` Exhibit 1069 Reshaping Human 69
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` Cancers By Riethmüller and Johnson
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` Antibodies For Therapy, Lutz
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` Exhibit 2060 Article titled Monoclonal 193
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` Riechmann, et al,
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` Antibodies in Cancer Therapy By
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` Exhibit 2020 article entitled 89
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` Riethmüller, Gädicke and Johnson
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` Humanization of Anti-p185HER2 Antibody
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` For Human Cancer Therapy
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`LUTZ RIECHMANN PAGE
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` Exhibit 1034 article titled Humanized 154
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` Antibody that Binds to the Interleukin
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` 2 Receptor
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` Exhibit 1068 Article titled Reshaping 208
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` Human Antibodies: Grafting an
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` E X H I B I T S C O N T I N U E D
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`LUTZ RIECHMANN PAGE
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` Exhibit 2061 Phase 2 Study of Receptor 198
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` Enhanced Chemosensitivity Using
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` Recombinant Human Anti-p185HER2
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` Monoclonal Antibody by Pegram, et al.
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` Exhibit 2062 Redline between Dr. 226
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` Riechmann's and Dr. Padlan's
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` Antilysozyme Activity by Verhoeyen,
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` declarations
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` Milstein and Winter
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` Exhibit 2054 Article entitled 235
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` Exhibit 1050 International Publication 273
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` Monoclonal Antibodies in Diagnostics
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` Number WO 90/07861
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` and Therapy by Waldmann
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` Exhibit 1003C Riechmann Exhibits A 312
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` Exhibit 2055 Article entitled 246
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` through P
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` Antibody-Based Therapy Humanized
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` Exhibit 1071 European Patent 327
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` Antibodies by Greg Winter and William
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` Application 0 403 156
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` J. Harris
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` Exhibit 2063 Riechmann Exhibit P from 326
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` Exhibit 1003C, page 778 of 778
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`

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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins disk number
`one of the videotaped deposition of Lutz Riechmann
`in the matter of Celltrion, Inc. v. Genentech,
`Inc., in the United States Patent and Trademark
`Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board,
`Case No. IPR 2017-01373 and 01374.
` Today's date is February 14th, 2018; the
`time is approximately 9:03 a.m. The videographer
`today is Charlie Bowman representing Planet Depos.
`This video deposition is taking place in New York,
`New York.
` Would counsel please voice-identify
`yourselves for the record.
` MR. GUNTHER: So for the patent owner
`Genentech, Bob Gunther and Andrew Le of
`WilmerHale.
` MR. CERWINSKI: For the petitioner
`Celltrion, Rob Cerwinski and Sarah Fischer of
`Goodwin Procter.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter
`today is Nancy representing Planet Depos. Would
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`the same what I'm doing here.
` Q Okay.
` A It may not be. But the last declaration
`which I wrote, that would be the sort of thing
`you're after, that was maybe November last year.
` Q And what matter was that in?
` MR. CERWINSKI: I caution the witness, if
`this is a confidential matter, non-public, please
`let me know.
` A It was for ZSP in Munich, and I don't
`really remember which antibody that was, but it
`was in relation to an antibody.
` Q It was in relation to an antibody. Was it
`in a -- was it in a court proceeding or a patent
`office proceeding, do you know?
` A Patent office -- so they were opposing
`another patent.
` Q And were you -- who were you acting as an
`expert for in that matter?
` A I think Sanofi.
` Q Sanofi, okay.
` A No, actually, I can't recall. I can't
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`the court reporter please swear in the witness.
` LUTZ RIECHMANN,
`after having been first duly sworn or affirmed to
`testify to the truth, was examined and
`testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE
`PATENT OWNER GENENTECH BY ROBERT GUNTHER:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Riechmann.
` A Good morning.
` Q Have you ever had your deposition taken
`before?
` A No.
` Q So this is the first time?
` A Right.
` Q And have you ever acted as an expert
`witness in any type of litigation proceeding
`before?
` A Yes.
` Q Can you tell me the last time that you did
`act in that capacity?
` A I did -- I have done -- I did that in
`Europe, so -- and so I don't know exactly it is
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`recall, because that's not the part I really know
`about. Okay, I would know if I would read kind of
`the head of --
` Q Sure, sure.
` A -- but I forget which company that was
`for.
` Q And were you -- were you working with --
`as an expert with the company that was opposing
`the patent?
` A Yes.
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` Q And who was the patent owner in that
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`matter, do you know?
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` A I've got several in my head, and I don't
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`want to speculate.
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` Q How many times have you acted as an expert
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`in European patent matters?
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` A I don't -- I'm guessing I may have written
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`about ten declarations or so, maybe a couple more.
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` Q Okay. And how many times of those
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`approximately ten engagements as an expert have
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`you been opposing a patent?
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` A I can't -- I would have --
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
`13
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`one hasn't written a declaration yet but one is
`still in the process -- or one was just in the
`process of kind of advising and consulting?
` Q Okay, that's a fair question, and let me
`see if I can be a little more precise.
` Have you acted as an expert in a U.S.
`proceeding in which you either testified or
`submitted some type of declaration or report in
`writing?
` A Not that I remember.
` Q Have you -- right now I'm just asking you
`for a yes or no answer to this question. Can you
`recall any instance in a U.S. proceeding in which
`you were retained as either an expert or
`consultant but had not yet gotten to the point of
`either testifying or preparing --
` A Yes.
` Q -- a report? Okay. Is that -- so now let
`me ask this question with respect to that.
` Is your -- was your retention in that
`case, is that something that was publicly known or
`was it confidential?
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` Q You can't give me any estimate on that?
` A I think it was more opposing than the
`other way around, but I think that's as far as I
`can --
` Q Can you think of any instances in which
`you were defending the patent?
` A I -- there are a number where I don't
`remember. It would have been one of those, yes,
`the ones which come to mind I were opposing.
` Q The ones that you recall now -- I just
`want to make sure I understand under answer. The
`ones that you recall now are instances in which
`you opposed the patent?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. As you sit here today, can you
`think of any instances in which you were defending
`a patent?
` A How long time do you give me to remember?
` Q Listen, I understand, you know, we're
`all -- you're about my vintage in age I think, and
`we're all kind of prisoners of our memory here, so
`I'm just asking you to do the best you can.
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` A I don't know.
` A I'm pretty sure I wrote something in
`defense of the MRC patents, but I couldn't give
` Q Do you feel comfortable telling me any of
`you details.
`the details about that?
` MR. CERWINSKI: And so again, I caution
` Q Okay. And that would have been some
`you, if there's any doubt as to whether this is
`patents that were -- that came out of Dr. Winter's
`confidential or not, you know, we can address it
`laboratory?
` A Yes.
`at a break, right? But I don't want you to reveal
`any information that's subject to a
` Q Okay. And can you give me -- do you
`confidentiality agreement or if you're in doubt,
`remember anything about that in terms of what the
`to answer that question.
`patents related to or the time frame, for example?
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` A That was kind of basically what I was
` A Don't remember what they were related to.
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`going to say. I don't remember the wordings of
`It was in the '00 or '90s, end of '90s, beginning
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`what I signed, so I'm -- I'm not feeling happy to
`of '00s.
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`possibly tell you something I'm not allowed to
` Q But it's fair to say of the ten --
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`tell you.
`approximately ten proceedings that you can recall
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` Q And okay, I want to be careful about that
`in Europe in which you acted as an expert, is it
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`too. But let me ask you this: In terms of being
`fair to say that most of them -- in most of them
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`retained for some type of U.S. proceeding, did
`you were opposing the patent?
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` A I'm not sure. Could be.
`that happen once or more than once?
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` A More than once.
` Q Okay. Have you acted as an expert in any
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` Q More than once, all right. And in each --
`proceedings in the United States prior to this?
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` A Although I'm mixing up maybe Canada and
` A Does it already count being an expert if
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
`17
`U.S. because I recall one case in Canada, and for
`me that's the same as America. Sorry.
` Q I can understand that.
` So there's one matter that you can recall
`where you were retained in Canada but you did not
`submit a declaration and did not testify, correct?
` A Um-hum.
` Q Is that right?
` A Yeah.
` Q And then there's one matter that you can
`recall for the U.S. where you were retained but
`did not submit a declaration and did not
`testify --
` A You're not counting this one, are you?
` Q Other than this. And I started out there
`but I -- but you're right --
` A Sorry, I forgot.
` Q -- to ask that. That's okay. Is that
`correct?
` A Yeah, I remember definitely one.
` Q So other than those two, the Canadian one
`and the U.S. one that you've now identified, are
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`the patent challenger or the patent owner?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Again, if you can't -- if
`you're not comfortable or unsure of whether this
`is confidential, we can discuss that at a break.
` A I'm actually not sure because it's -- I'm
`advising on setting up some experiments and kind
`of how that fits in. I'm not really involved with
`the litigation side there but with proving a
`point.
` Q Okay. So in that -- in the U.S.
`litigation you're not -- you haven't been retained
`so much to give an opinion with respect to whether
`a patent is valid or invalid; you're more focusing
`on some experimental work. Is that fair?
` A It's at the stages at the moment. When
`that is done, the idea is that I'm going to write
`a declaration, but we haven't really talked about
`that yet.
` Q Okay. And in connection with -- are you
`working with the company that's challenging the
`patent?
` A Again, I'm not -- if I would kind of have
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`my notes and look it up, I could work it out, but
`there any other instances that you can recall
`I haven't really thought about that part of it yet
`where, other than this matter here, that we're
`so I can't remember.
`here today for, where you were retained as an
` Q Okay. And how about in the Canadian
`expert in connection with a U.S. proceeding?
` A I'm pretty sure I was, but I can't
`matter, is that one where you've been retained by
`remember what it was.
`the patent challenger or the patent owner?
` A I can't remember.
` Q Okay. And would that have been -- well,
` Q Is that one still ongoing as well?
`let me ask this question.
` A No. They started and then they -- kind of
` With respect to the U.S. proceeding that
`the matter solved itself.
`you can recall being retained in, approximately
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` Q Ah, okay. So you were retained and it got
`how long ago was that?
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` A It's long ago, so it has been going on for
`settled relatively early --
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` A Yes.
`maybe half a year now.
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` Q -- is that fair? And about how long ago
` Q Half a year. Okay. So it's a currently
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`was that, the Canadian experience?
`ongoing matter?
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` A It was this decade. That is as far as --
` A Yes.
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` Q Fair enough. And in the -- let's go back
` Q All right.
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` A That's why I remember it.
`to the approximately ten or so proceedings in
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`Europe that you've been involved as an expert.
` Q Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. And in
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`Have you ever testified in any of those
`that proceeding, that U.S. proceeding, are you --
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`proceedings?
`again, I'm not asking you any details, but I'm
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` A I went to the -- to one trial sitting
`just asking you broadly -- are you representing
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
`21
`there where they do these things in Brussels or
`close -- the Hague --
` Q Yes.
` A -- in case they wanted to ask questions,
`but they didn't.
` Q Lucky for you, right?
` A No, I would have loved to.
` Q It would have been fine either way, right?
` Have you -- now, you've submitted written
`reports --
` A Yeah.
` Q -- or declarations in connection with
`those.
` A Yeah.
` Q Is that correct? And can you recall any
`of the subject matter of any of those ten
`proceedings?
` A This morning I was -- maybe I shouldn't --
`you've got in the U.S. advertisements for
`monoclonal antibody --
` Q Yes.
` A -- and that was a monoclonal antibody that
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`case was about. Yes, I remember what the antibody
`was about.
` Q Okay. And what antibody were you acting
`as an expert with respect to?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Again, I just want to -- I
`just want to -- I don't know that it's been
`established whether these ten are all public or
`not, right? So I just want to again caution you
`if you have any doubt as to whether any of these
`details are covered by a confidentiality
`agreement, I think -- don't answer and we can
`discuss that at a break or at a later time. That
`needs to be sorted out.
` A Yeah. Yeah, I think that is right because
`I like talking about it because I found it very
`interesting.
` Q Sure.
` A But I -- as I'm not a lawyer, I'm not sure
`what and what is not allowed unless I've got it
`written in front of me.
` Q Okay.
` A So it may be better to hold -- that I
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` MR. GUNTHER: I mean -- because part of it
`is, we do have a Protective Order in this matter,
`and I'm prepared to ask questions relating to
`these issues under the Protective Order portion,
`but I think I'm entitled to at least understand
`what his prior experience is. And so that's what
`I would like to inquire into.
` MR. CERWINSKI: So, you know, I think the
`issue here is if he's been retained by someone on
`a confidential basis and the retainer itself is
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`confidential, that's a confidentiality obligation
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`owed to a third party who's not subject to the
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`Protective Order, right? And really want to
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`make -- you know, avoid a situation where running
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`into issues where perhaps Dr. Riechmann is in
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`danger of violating an NDA, a third-party
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`obligation that -- where our Protective Order
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`really doesn't have that party as a signatory.
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` MR. GUNTHER: No, I understand that. But
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`at least as we sit here right now, we're not aware
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`of any such situation. So part of -- you know, I
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`don't talk too much about that.
` MR. CERWINSKI: We just want to avoid
`issues with --
` MR. GUNTHER: No, no, I understand.
` Q With respect to the ten -- approximately
`ten matters where you've acted as an expert in
`Europe, can you tell me any of the parties that
`you've been retained by?
` A Not the law firm. You mean the
`pharmaceutical company?
` Q Yes.
` MR. CERWINSKI: And again, I don't want to
`sound like a broken record here, but sometimes the
`identity of the parties might be confidential, who
`you're working for. So, again, if that's an
`issue, then please let us know about that.
` A I think that is right, that I'm not -- I'm
`not sure what I signed when I signed this.
` MR. GUNTHER: Well, I'd ask you guys to
`talk about that on a break. You offered to do
`that, Rob.
` MR. CERWINSKI: Sure.
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
`25
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`first, the one -- the declaration that you
`submitted in the 01373 IPR. And I just want to
`ask you, sir, that's a declaration that you signed
`on May 8th, 2017, and if you want to check that,
`it's at page 220.
` A Yes.
` Q Are you aware as you sit here today of any
`errors or inaccuracies in Exhibit 1003 in the
`01373 IPR?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Objection to form.
` A I was now confused. Can you repeat the
`question?
` Q Sure, sure. My question is, focusing on
`that Exhibit 1003 in the 01373 IPR, are you aware
`of any errors or inaccuracies in that declaration
`as you sit here today?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Same objection.
` You can answer.
` A I don't know. I guess if I don't know,
`that means, no, I'm not aware.
` Q Yeah. Is that your answer?
` A Yes.
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`you know, to my client to inquire about the
`witness's past experience as an expert, and I
`think I should have some ability to do that. So
`I'd ask you to think about that with him on a
`break, and we can come back to it.
` MR. CERWINSKI: Sure.
` MR. GUNTHER: Okay?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Okay.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q Dr. Riechmann, what I'd like to do now is
`put the two declarations that you've signed in
`this matter -- in these two matters in front of
`you and ask you some questions about those.
` The first declaration is a declaration
`that you submitted in connection with the IPR two
`thousand -- 2017-01373. And I'll hand you that.
` MR. GUNTHER: You don't need to mark that.
`And that has already been marked as Celltrion
`Exhibit 1003 in this proceeding.
` (Exhibit 1003 Expert Declaration of Lutz
`Riechmann, Ph.D., Case IPR 2017-01373 previously
`marked, is attached to the transcript.)
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` MR. GUNTHER: And then I am -- and I
`should be -- let me clarify. What I've just put
`in front of the witness was marked as Exhibit 1003
`in the 01373 IPR.
`BY MR. GUNTHER:
` Q And now I'm going to also put in front of
`you a declaration that you submitted in connection
`with the 01374 IPR, and this is also marked as
`Celltrion Exhibit 1003 in that proceeding.
` (Exhibit 1003 Expert Declaration of Lutz
`Riechmann, Ph.D., Case IPR 2017-01374 previously
`marked, is attached to the transcript.)
` Q Sir, starting with the declaration that
`you submitted in the one -- 01373 IPR, and if you
`can get that -- orient yourself. I know these
`things are -- they look pretty much the same and
`they have the same exhibit number, just to make
`it --
` A Yeah, I see by the different numbers.
` Q Do you see the different numbers?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay, so focus on the one if you can,
`
` Q Okay. And is there anything in that
`exhibit, Exhibit 1003 in the 01373 IPR, that you
`would like to correct or change?
` A Well, I don't know if I --
` Q Again, as you sit here today, is there
`anything --
` A Not that I know of, but if I read it
`again, I might find one because it's a very
`long ...
` Q Yeah, sure, sure, sure. But as far as you
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`know sitting here right now, you don't have
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`anything that you'd like to correct or change with
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`respect to that declaration, correct?
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` A I know of one exhibit which I put in there
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`where there's a slight error, but it's not really
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`material so ...
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` Q Okay. Which exhibit is that? I'm not
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`sure I've given you the exhibits, but I can.
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` A It's, as I said, not important. I aligned
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`the different sequences, and I think the numbering
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`of the sequences is a little bit out.
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` Q Is that in Exhibit P?
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
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` A It's the last of --
` Q The very last exhibit? Okay. That's
`fine. We'll come back to that.
` But for now, other than that, what you
`just pointed out with respect to the last exhibit
`in your declaration, which I believe is Exhibit P,
`but we'll check, are there any errors or
`inaccuracies in your Exhibit 1003, your
`declaration in the 373 IPR?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Objection to the form.
` A No, none.
` Q Now, I want to focus you on the second
`declaration, the one that you submitted in the
`01374 IPR, and I'm going to ask you the same
`question, sir: That's a declaration that you
`signed on May 8, 2017, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And, sir, other than -- and you --
`strike that.
` Other than a potential error with respect
`to the last exhibit of that declaration, are you
`aware of any errors or inaccuracies in
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`have in front of us right now?
` A I know that the process took several
`weeks, but I don't recall how many hours of those.
` Q Okay. Sir, when you were initially
`retained, one of the things that you talk about is
`that you were provided with a declaration by
`Dr. Padlan. Is that correct?
` A I'm not sure what initially retained --
` Q Let me ask the question again. Let me try
`the question again.
` In connection with your work in preparing
`the declarations that are both marked as
`Exhibit 1003, you were given a declaration that
`had previously been written and signed by
`Dr. Padlan, correct?
` A Sorry, I was -- can you repeat your
`question because I was --
` Q Sure. Sure.
` In connection with your work with respect
`to these declarations, both Exhibits 1003 and the
`two IPRs we're here for today, in connection with
`that work, you were provided with a declaration
`
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`from Dr. Padlan that had been submitted in a prior
`Exhibit 1003 submitted in the 01374 IPR?
`IPR challenging the '213 patent, correct?
` MR. CERWINSKI: Objection to the form.
` A In connection with it, yes.
` A No.
` Q Okay. Sir, were you asked to form any
` Q Is there anything that -- other than the
`opinions with respect to the validity of the '213
`point you've made with respect to the last exhibit
`patent prior to being given the Padlan
`to that declaration, is there anything that you'd
`declaration?
`like to change or correct as you sit here today?
` A Yes.
` A No.
` Q So before you were given the Padlan
` Q Now, sir, when were you retained by -- in
`declaration, you did an independent analysis of
`this matter?
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` A The early part of last year.
`the validity of the '213 patent?
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` A Yes.
` Q Can you tell me approximately what month?
`12
` A I'm not sure.
` Q You did, okay. And did you identify prior
`13
`art to the '213 patent independent of anything
` Q But it was in the early part of 2017. Is
`14
`that you read in Dr. Padlan's declaration?
`that correct?
`15
` A Yes.
` A Yeah.
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` Q And at what point -- how long had you been
` Q Who were you retained by, do you know?
`17
`working on the matter before you were given
`Were you retained by the lawyers for Celltrion or
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`Dr. Padlan's declaration?
`were you retained by Celltrion?
`19
` A I don't remember times. I remember the
` A By the lawyers for Celltrion.
`20
`way -- kind of the steps, how I did that. So I
` Q Okay. Sir, how many hours approximately
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`got -- I was given the '213 patent --
`did you spend preparing the declarations that we
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
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` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. And you said there was also a Queen
`patent that you were given. That has a date of
`1990. Is that the Queen --
` A I think so, yeah.
` Q Okay. Anything else that you can recall
`that you were given in terms of prior art at the
`outset?
` A Yeah, something which I didn't know
`beforehand. The Kurrle -- patent by Kurrle.
` Q And that's K-u-r-r-l-e, correct? Okay.
` Anything else that you can recall you were
`given at the outset?
` A That's what I remember. May be more.
` Q And then let me just ask you with respect
`to each of those. Were you familiar -- already
`familiar with the Kabat reference at the time --
` A Yes.
` Q -- that it was given to you?
` A Yes.
` Q That was not new you to, right?
` A No.
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` Q Were you familiar with the Chothia -- and
`Chothia & Lesk articles that were provided to you?
` A Yeah.
` Q You already knew about those, right?
` A Yep.
` Q And then the Queen 1989 paper you were
`aware of that prior to getting involved in this
`matter?
` A Can you repeat?
` Q Sure, sure. The Queen 1989 paper --
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` A Yes.
`11
` Q -- that you were given at the outset of
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`this, you were aware of that prior to getting
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`involved in this matter. Is that correct?
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` A Yes, sure.
`15
` Q How about the Queen patent, were you aware
`16
`of that prior to getting involved in this matter?
`17
` A I know that the patent existed, but I
`18
`hadn't -- I'm not sure that I read it before.
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` Q As far as you know sitting here today is
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`the first time that you read the Queen 1990 patent
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`that you can recall reading that is in connection
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` Q Yes.
` A -- and some prior art references or kind
`of the center prior art references.
` Q Okay.
` A And I analyzed those together with
`additional references of mainly our own work which
`weren't given to me but which are, in my opinion,
`important for that. And then we had a discussion
`where --
` MR. CERWINSKI: I caution you not to
`reveal the substance of any discussion with
`attorneys. He's not seeking, you know, what you
`talked about with the lawyers.
` Q But I think you can -- but I am seeking
`the steps without getting into the -- the steps
`without getting into the conversations.
` A Okay.
` Q Okay?
` A So we had a conversation. Then after the
`conversation I was asked to look at the patent.
` Q So just to make sure I understand the
`steps. You were given -- at the outset of your
`
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`retention in these matters you were given a copy
`of the '213 patent. Is that right?
` A Yeah.
` Q And you were given certain prior art?
` A Yeah.
` Q Can you recall the prior art that you were
`given at the outset?
` A I'm not sure that I can remember all, but
`I can attempt to remember a few.
` Q Sure.
` A I think it was an excerpt from the Kabat
`publication.
` Q Okay.
` A There were one or two -- at least one or
`two papers by Chothia or Chothia & Lesk.
` Q Okay.
` A There was a paper by Queen and a patent by
`Queen.
` Q There's -- we've been calling the paper
`that's involved in this proceeding by Queen, Queen
`1989 after the date of the publication. Is that
`the one that you were given?
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`Transcript of Lutz Riechmann
`Conducted on February 14, 2018
`37
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` A That's correct.
` Q And that's a 1988 paper --
` A Yeah.
` Q -- right? Okay. Any others?
` A There may have been more, but I can't
`remember at which point -- because you were
`interested -- you said you were interested just in
`the specific time --
` Q That's what I'm focusing on, right.
` A So I don't -- don't remember whether any
`others I had at that point or later on.
` Q Okay. Do you recall going out -- again,
`I'm focusing on that point between the time that
`you were retained and the time that you were given
`Dr. Padlan's declaration. Did you do any prior
`art searching to locate additio