`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
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`\.tflll:D STAll:$ PATl:NT AND TRAOaWll< OFFICE
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`llffCl\10 1ltf PATENT TRII\L liND 1\PPO/\L 60ARD
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`I N D E X
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`SAHSU'IG ELECIR(ji!CS CO., LID.
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`AND SAHS\.tfG ElfCIR(jiiCS A11:RICA,)
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`INC.,
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`PETITIONER,
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`) CASE NO. !PR2017-01190
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`vs.
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`) PATENT NO. 6,717,518
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`lr-1>\GE PROCESSING Tl:Ot«ll.OGIES
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`) CASE NO. !PR2017-01218
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`) PATENT NO. 8,983,134
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`PATl:NT 0\INER.
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`__________________)
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`E:XPERT DEPOSITION OF JOHN C. HART, PH .D.
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`FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 2017
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`JOO NO. 117834
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`19 REPORTl:D BY KIMBERLY EDELEN, C.S.R. NO. 9042, CRR, RPR.
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`3 WITNESS
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`EXAMINATION
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`PAGE
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`JOHN C. HART, Ph. 0.
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`BY MR . COULSON
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`EXHIBITS
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`NO .
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`PAGE
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`DESCRIPTION
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`12 EX. 2012
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`14 EX. 2013
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`PRINTOUT fROM PARALLEL
`COMPUTING INSTITUTE RE:
`JOHN C. HART
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`PRJ NT OUT fROM COMPUTER
`GRAPHICS ILLINOIS RE:
`JOHN C. HART
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`16 EX. 2014
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`79
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`HAND-DRAWN SKETCH
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`17 EX. 2015
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`131
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`EYE DIAGRAM
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`20 REFERENCED EXHIBITS
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`PREV!OUSL Y MARKED
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`NO.
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`PAGE
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`DESCRIPTION
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`22 EX. 1001
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`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 8,983,134 B2 DATED
`MARCH 17, 2015
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`(EXHIBITS CONTINUED ON FOLLOWING PAGE)
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`EXPERT DEPOSIT ION OF JOHN C. HART, Ph.D. , TAKEN ON
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`BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER I MAGE PROCESSING TECHNOLOGIES
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`REFERENCED EXHIBITS PREV!OUSL Y r-1>\RKED
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`NO.
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`PAGE
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`DESCRIPTION
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`LLC, AT 9:24A.M., FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 2017, AT
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`400 SOUTH HOPE STREET, 18TH FLOOR, LOS ANGELES,
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`CALI FORI'l!A, BEFORE KIMBERLY A. EDELEN, C. S. R. NO. 9042,
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`CRR, RPR.
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`EX. 1002
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`EX. 1005
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`EX. 1006
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`EX. 1007
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`EX. 1009
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`EX. 1013
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`EX. 1014
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`DECLARATION OF OR . JOHN C. HART
`IN SUPPORT OF PETITION FOR
`INTER PARTES REVIEW OF
`U.S. PATENT NO. 8,983,134
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`"A REAL-TIME VIDEO TRACKING
`SYSTEM" BY ALTON L. GILilfRT
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`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5,521,843 DATED
`MAY 28, 1996
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5,805, 720 DATED
`SEPTE~R 8, 1998
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`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5,008,946 DATED
`APRIL 16, 1996
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`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5,481,622 DATED
`JANUARY 2, 1996
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`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 6,044,166 DATED
`MARCH 28, 2000
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`APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
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`10 FOR THE PETITIONER SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. AND
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA ,
`INC.:
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`0' HELVE NY & HYERS LLP
`BY: BRIAN H. COOK, ESQ.
`NICHOLAS J. WHILT, ESQ.
`400 SOUTH HOPE STREET
`18TH FLOOR
`LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90071
`213.430.6000
`BCOOK@OMH . COM
`NWH! LT@OMH. COM
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`18 FOR THE PATENT OWNER IMAGE PROCESSING TECHNOLOGIES LLC:
`
`ANDREWS KURTH KENYON LLP
`BY: CHRIS J. COULSON, ESQ.
`ONE BROADWAY
`NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10004
`212.425.7200
`CHRI SCOULSON@KENYON. COM
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 I WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`2
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`

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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
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`LOS ANGElES, CALIFORNIA; FR!OAY, OECEM8ER 22, 20 17 ;
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`9:24 A.H.
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`THE REPORTER: Pursuant to Federal Rules of
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`<.:1 vi 1 Procedure, J am requu ·ed to state the followt ng :
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`My name is Kim Edel en. My business add r ess is
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`14520 Sylvan St r eet, Van Nuys, California 91411. This
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`is the deposition of Or. John Hart in the matter of
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`10 Samsung Electronics and Image Process ing Technologies,
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`11 beg i nning at 9 : 24a . m., on December 22 , 20 17. This
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`12 deposition is taking place at the law offices of
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`13 O'Me l veny & Myers at 400 South Hope Street, Los Angeles,
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`14 California.
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`Counsel, will you please state your a ppearances
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`16 for the record, and then I wil l swear i n the witness .
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`HR. COULSON: For patent owner Image Process i ng
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`18 Technologies, my name is Chr is Coulson , Andrews Kurth
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`19 Kenyon.
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`HR. COOK: And I'm 8rian Cook .
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`I ' m
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`21 representing-- f rom O'Helveny and Myers.
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`I'11
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`r epresent i ng Samsung in this case . And I
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`j u st want to
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`23 put on the record that the ""i tness, Dr . Har-t, is
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`24 appearing in-- for a deposi tion in IPR 2017-1218 wn i ch
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`25 deals with Patent 8983 134. And IPR 20 17-11 90 wh i ch
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`1
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`deals with Patent 6717518, and that's the scope of h i s
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`deposition today.
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`Sorry. With me also is my colleague Ni ck
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`4 Whilt .
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`J OHN C. HART, Ph.O.,
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`I one of my questions, will you ask me so I can rephrase
`2
`it?
`3
`A Sure.
`4 Q Andyou'redoingagoodjobofansweringorally
`5 but you'll -- you'll answer orally, not nod your head in
`6 response to questions. Okay?
`A Okay.
`7
`8 Q So, Dr. Hart, what's your hourly rate for the
`9 services you're providing to Samsung?
`10 A I charge an hourly rate but it goes t hrough a
`11 company that then bills Samsung. And I'm not sure what
`12 t he rules are for that disclosure with respect to my
`13 contract wi th that company, so I don't know that I'm at
`14 liberty to say.
`15 Q Well, it's tru.e this transcript will be
`16 publicly available, but I guess we will have the
`I 7 opportunity to mark material as confidential if
`18 necessary. So given-- with Samsung's counsel we can
`19 work on that after the deposition.
`20
`So given that we'll have that option, can you
`21 tell me the hourly rate that's being charged for your
`22 services?
`23 A I don't know. I'm not sure what the group t hat
`24 I send my invoices to charges Samsung for my hour ly
`25 rate.
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`8
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`having been first duly swor n by t he r epor ter, was
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`examined and testified as follows:
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`10 BY HR . COULSON:
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`EXAMI NATION
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`Good morn i ng, Or. Hart _
`Good 11orning .
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`Q
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`A
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`Q
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`14 please.
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`Would you s t ate your name for the record,
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`John c. Hart.
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`And what university are you based at?
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`Q Well, what's the rate that you are receiving?
`I
`A I don't know t hat I can disci ose that based on
`2
`3 my contract with t hat company t hat charges for my
`4 services.
`5 Q Okay. So you won't tell me?
`A It's somethi ng over $500 an hour. I'm not sure
`6
`7 of t he exact amount.
`8 Q Okay. We'll work with that. Try to work with
`9
`that.
`I 0
`Can you give me an idea roughly when you were
`11 retained by Samstmg?
`12 A I don't reme mber the exact date. It's been
`13 over a year.
`14 Q And rather than drilling in on the rate, can
`15 you give me a sense of the total amount that you've
`16 received for your services to Samsung?
`17 A I reall y don''t know. I haven't added it up.
`18 Q Can you-- apologies. About when were you
`I 9 retained?
`20 A It's been over a year. It hasn't been a year's
`21 worth of wor k front to back. It's been as needed.
`22 Q And what -- approximately how many TPRs have
`23 you worked on for the Samsung v. Image Processing JiPRs?
`24 A I don't have the exact account. It's at least
`25 these two and there's been others, but I don't remember
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`Q
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`The Unive r sity of Illinois.
`And you've testified -- i t appears you ' ve
`testified befo r e in an ITC tr ial; is that right?
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`And given depositions before?
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`Yes .
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`Yes.
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`So you' re generally familiar wi t h the process?
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`Yes.
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`So just as a reminde r ,
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`i f you don't unde rstand
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`3
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`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`9
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`3 (9 to 12)
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`11
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`the exact number.
`1
`Q More than five?
`2
`A I don't think it was more than five.
`3
`4 Q Around five?
`5
`A I don't know.
`6
`Q Okay. And have you submitted invoices to the
`7 company that submits invoices to Samsung?
`8
`A Yes, I did.
`Q Approximately how many have you sent?
`9
`10 A I don't know. There's been months where there
`11 was no invoice sent. So something less than, you know,
`12 12, but ...
`13 Q Can you give me -- what's an amount-- can you
`14 recall the amount of any of the invoices roughly?
`15 A No. I add it up and send it off, and I don't
`16 remember the specific amounts.
`17 Q And how much time have you spent-- what did
`18 you do to prepare for this deposition today?
`19 A I r ead through the patents, the declarations
`20 and the other material s for the TPR.
`21 Q Did you meet with Samsung counsel?
`22 A Yes, I did.
`23 Q For about how long?
`24 A I don't know. At least a day.
`25 Q Is that here in L.A.?
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`10
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`I Q Did Samsung counsel assist you in preparing
`2 your declaration?
`3
`A Yes, they did.
`4 Q Were you provided with the prior references
`that you -- that are t he subject of your declaration by
`5
`6 Samsung counsel?
`7
`A I believe they pointed me to a lot of
`8
`references. I found-- I looked at references as well
`9 and I don't recall exactly, you know, how each one of
`10 the r efere nces was selected.
`II Q Can you identify any of the references for the
`12 '134 patent, Gilbert, Bassman, Gerhardt and Hashima that
`13 were not provided to you by Samsung counsel?
`14 A No. I really don't recall going through all
`15 the references that we went through, how each and ever y
`16 one of them was found.
`17 Q And for the '518, the references are Stringa,
`18 Ando and Suenaga. Do you recall any of those that were
`19 not provided to you by Samsung counsel?
`20 A No. l don't recall any specifics, how we got
`21 to any of those r eferences.
`22 Q Can you recall any of the references that are
`23 at issue in the '134 or '5 I 8 IPR declarations that you
`24 located?
`25 A No. I don't remember specifically which ones
`12
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`1 and how they were found.
`A Yes.
`1
`2 Q Did you locate any of the references that are
`2 Q And who did )QU meet with?
`the subject matter ofyour two declarations, the '134
`3
`3
`A
`I met \\ith Brian and Nick.
`Q About how rru::h tim: roughly does it -- have you
`4 and '518 declarations?
`4
`5 spent on prepa~ the declaration fOr the two IPRs at
`5
`A
`I don't recall. I know I found some
`6
`issue today?
`6
`references. I don' t remember which and how they came
`7 about for each one. I just didn't document the-- you
`7
`A
`I don't have an exact nurrt>er. I didn't really
`look at how much time. If you add it up on the
`8 know, how these were located as part of my declaration.
`8
`9 Q It would be pretty memorable if you found a
`9 declaratiom and then revielW1g all the materials needed
`I 0 reference that was used in an lPR pet ition, wouldn't it?
`10 for the deposition today, so I'm really not sure exactly
`11 how much time that 'muld have been.
`ll
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`12 Q So sitting here today, you can't give me-- can
`TI-lE WITNESS: 1 find references all the time.
`12
`13 You know, I pride myself on knowing the literature, and
`13 you gi\e rne a rough estimate?
`14 often I point to things that I'm aware of and those get
`14 A No. I \\Ouldn't feel comfortable giving you a
`15 incorporated. It's not unusual.
`15 rough estimate. I'm not exactly sure eve~ you know,
`16 BY MR. COULSON:
`16 order of magnitude how long that w.lS.
`17 Q And do you know in the approxitmte --
`17 Q But nothing is coming to mind for the '134 and
`18 '5 18 petition references?
`18 approxirrate one year that you worked with Sarrsung fur
`19 tl-x: lrmge Processing v. Sam;ung tmtters, row many mmths
`19 A No. I don't have that specific of a
`20 did you have no activity?
`20 recollection of what we did to find those references.
`21 Q Well, let me hand you, and Twill mark a
`21 A So first I think it's been more than a year.
`22 Q Think yott
`22 couple, T think, University ofTIIinois web pages we
`23 located. We'll mark these as 2012 and 20 13, please.
`23 A And I don't know how many months it's been
`Exhibit 2012 is a printout of a web page from
`24 \\ithout activity. I know there's been months 'mere
`24
`25 there's not been activity. I don't remember how many.
`25 Parallel.Tllinois.edu. The top is labeled Parallel
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`13
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`4 (13 to 16)
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`15
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`I Cot1lluting In<;titute.
`(DepositbnExlubitNo. 2012
`2
`was rmrked fur identification.)
`3
`4 BY MR. COULSON:
`5 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 20 12?
`A Yes, I do.
`6
`7 Q What is it?
`A It's a printout of the -of a page describing
`8
`9 my meni>ership in the ParaUel Cofl1>uting Institute.
`10 Q What is the Parallel Corrput:ing Institute?
`11 A It's kind of an unbreUa organization at the
`12 University of Illinois that coUects faculty and others
`13 that have interest in paraUel corqmting that have
`14 \'IOrked on projects for paraUel corq>Uting.
`My rmin \'IOrk "ith the Parallel Co~Jl>Uting
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`16 Institute was as one of the menilers ofthe Universal
`17 ParaDe! Coll1>Uting Research Center, the UPCRC that was
`18 sponsored by Intel a nd Microsoft at the University of
`1 9 Illinois, I think, from around 2007 to 2012 and a little
`20 bit beyond that.
`21 Q Can you twn to the next exhibit, 2013, please.
`(Deposition Exhibit No. 2013
`22
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`was rrruked fur identification)
`24 BYMR COULSON:
`25 Q lhlt has at the top John C. Hart, ConlJuter
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`Q What is shape and modeling?
`I
`A Shape modeHng i s a general field. It would
`2
`include things like Computer Aided Design and the
`3
`4 ability to describe a shape, for example, like this
`5 bottle of water, numerically, so that it could be
`re presented computationally.
`6
`7 Q You can put aside those two exhibits, Dr. Hart.
`I'm going to hand you a copy of the '134 patent
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`that has been previously marked as Exhibit I 00 I in
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`10 TPR2017- 12 18.
`You're prepared to talk about the '134 patent?
`11
`12 A Yes, I am.
`13 Q Can you turn -- all set?
`14 A Yeah.
`15 Q Can you tum to the end of the '134 patent, the
`16 daims section.
`17 A Okay.
`18 Q And I wanted to give you an opportunity to look
`19 at Claim 3, and it's independent Claim 1 for the next
`20 series of questions.
`Do you have those? Bottom right column.
`21
`22 A Yeah.
`23 Q You understand that Claim 3 depends from
`24 Claim 1 and includes all the limitations of Claim 1,
`25 right?
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`14
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`16
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`I Graphics Tllinois.
`Do you see that?
`2
`A Yes, I do.
`3
`4 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 20 13?
`A Yes, I do.
`5
`6 Q And what is it?
`A This is the - from the \\ebsite
`7
`8 Graphics.cs.Uiinois.EDU. There are entries for faculty
`9 and stllldents and others, and this is the entry for
`10 pointing to me describing some of my \'IOrk in corqmter
`11 graphics.
`12 Q Can you bok tmder ''Title & Interests" rext to
`13 your photograph on Exhibit 2013, please. It says "CS -
`14 high perfunnance graphics, shape mxleling."
`Do you see that?
`15
`16 A Yes.
`17 Q Wha~s high perfonmnce graphics?
`18 A High perforrmnce graphics is - it's 1'\0rking
`19 \\ith algorithms, methods, approaches for doing COfl1>uter
`20 graphics and related techniques on high perforrmnce
`21 platfonns, often parallel platforms, special purpose
`22 hardware platforms, or even general pui])Ose corqmter
`23 platfonns focusing on speed and getting things
`24 accorrp.ished at a higher rate of speed than w.ts possible
`25 before.
`
`A Yes.
`1
`2 Q For Claim l I understand that you have used
`lettering, I think both parties have used lettering for
`3
`4 certain claim elements, so I wanted to make sure we're
`5 on the same page with the lettering before we get into
`the claim. Okay.
`6
`If you can refer to -- I see you're looking at
`7
`8 your declaration. You can refer to wherever you want,
`9 of course, but let me point you to Page 53, 55.
`MR. COOK: Of course the declaration you're
`10
`11 referring to is marked as Exhibit I 002; is that right?
`MR. COULSON: That's a good point. I'll hand
`12
`13 it out. I see the witness has brought declarations with
`14 hiim, but I should hand out copies, so I'll do that now.
`MR. COOK: I have a copy of it, actually.
`15
`16 BY MR. COULSON:
`17 Q So, Dr. Hart, I'll hand you a copy of Samsung
`18 Exhibit I 002 for the' 134 patent, IPR. This is a
`19 stapled double-sided \ersion. Maybe that will help you.
`20 l11at's been previoUJsly marked. And you can refer to tbe
`21 one you brought or Exhibit I 002 that l'\e handed you,
`22 whichever you prefer.
`23 A Okay. Thanks.
`24 Q You see for Claim I , the claim paragraph
`25 beginning with "forming at least one histogram" that you
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`17
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`5 (17 to 20)
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`referred to on Page 55, Section B of your declaration,
`I
`2 Exhibit 1002?
`A Yes. "Forming at least one histogram of the
`3
`4 pixels."
`5 Q Yes. So if we refer to Exhibit-- excuse me.
`6 Strike that.
`If we refer to Claim Element 1 A you'll
`7
`8 understand we're referring to the claim element ''forming
`9 at least one histogram of the pixels in the one or more
`I 0 of a pi w-al ity of classes in the one or more of a
`11 plurality of domains, said at least one histogram
`12 referring to classes defining said target."
`I3 A Yes.
`14 Q And for Element 1 B, I'll refer you to Page 57
`15 of your declaration.
`Do you have that?
`16
`17 A Uh-huh.
`18 Q If we refer to Element 1 B today, you'll
`19 understand that to refer to "identifying the target in
`20 said at least one histogram itselr'?
`21 A Yes.
`22 Q Element 1 C is on Page 59, among other places in
`23 your declaration.
`24
`If we refer to Element 1 C we can agree that
`25 we're referring to "wherein forming the at least one
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`19
`interpretation is as I've demonstrated it in comparison
`I
`2 with in this case Gerhardt and Bassman.
`Q T'd like to ask you about the claim limitation
`3
`4 and you applied, I understand, essentially plain meaning
`to your interpretation of the claim eUements, right?
`5
`6 You didn't apply any special meaning to the elements of
`7 Claim I or Claim 3?
`8
`A I applied plain and ordinary meaning of what a
`9 person of ordinary skill in the art would have utililCd
`I 0 at the time of the patent based on what was disclosed in
`11 the patent itself. And that was sutii ci ent for -- to
`12 understand how each ofthe claims was applied with
`13 respect to both the embodiments i n the patent and in the
`14 prior art that I examined.
`15 Q For Element I B, does identifying the target
`16 require locating the target in space?
`17 A I didn't come up with a formal definition of
`IS "identifYing." I used the term "identifYing" to look at
`19 how the histogram was being used, and with respect to
`20 the target in each ofthe cases that I applied thi s
`2I claim limitation to, and in each case it was clear what
`22 was meant by "identifYing." So in some cases, yes,
`23 "identifYing" meant locating, but in other cases i t
`24 didn't necessarily mean "locating."
`25 Q So ifl understand you correctly, your
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`20
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`18
`I histogram further compr ises determining X minima and
`2 maxima and Y minima and maxima of boundaries of the
`3
`target"; is that right?
`A Yes. I believe in-- here on Page 59, I've got
`4
`5
`it as "wherein identifYing the target in said at least
`6 one his togram," and I believe it's wherein forming this
`7 copy of the patent, so given that, yes.
`8 Q Okay. So I'll just do this quickly. Looking
`9 at the patent, we'll agree that Element I C refers to
`I 0 ''where in forming the at least one histogram further
`II comprises determining X minima and maxima andY minima
`12 and maxima of boundaries of the target," right?
`13 A Right.
`14 Q Let me point you back to Page 57 of your
`15 declaration, Exhibit I 002 of the ' 134. And I'll just
`16 note we'll be going through the '134 declaration, which
`17 is the IJ>R 2017-1 2 18. So that's Exhibit l002 T'm
`18 referri·ng to.
`Are you with me on that page?
`19
`20 A Yes. Page 57.
`21 Q Yes.
`22
`What's your interpretation of Element 1B,
`23 '~denti:fying the target in said at least one histogram
`24 itselr?
`25 A It's as the declaration states, it's-- my
`
`interpretation of Element I B is that identifying, it
`I
`2 doesn't require locating the target?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Misstates testimony.
`3
`lHE WITNESS: As I said before, it depends on
`4
`5
`the example. So there were examples where -- there were
`6 examples where that met this claim I imitation where
`identifying was referring to locating and other exampl es
`7
`8 where identifying was not referring to locating.
`9 BYMR. COULSON:
`I 0 Q So if they're examples and your interpretation
`11 of Claim Element I B where identifying doesn't require
`12 locating, then I understand correctly yoLU·
`13 interpretation of Element IBis that it doesn't require
`14 locating the target?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Misstates testimony.
`15
`16
`THE WI1NESS: I think all T'm saying is that in
`17 some cases when I applied Claim Limitation I B to prior
`18 art, there were examples where I felt the prior art met
`19 the claim limitation. But the identification of the
`20 target was not necessarily a location.
`21 BY MR. COULSON:
`22 Q So you would read Element I B to encompass
`23 identifying that does not identify a location of the
`24 target?
`25 A I don't believe I made any statement about
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`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`21
`
`6 (21 to 24)
`
`23
`
`1 encoJ11lassing or defining the oord "identirying." I
`think an I'm saying is that "hen I applied Oaim
`2
`3 Element 1 B to the prior a rt, there l\ere cases ""here it
`4
`\\aS clear that O aim Element 1 B applied to the prior art
`5 but the result \WS not a location of the target.
`Q Claim Elem::nt I B would include cases that --
`6
`7 where identificatim does rot locate the target then?
`8
`A I was able to find exaJl1lles \\bere that lmS the
`9 case.
`I 0 Q So tha~s in the scope of I B urder yotrr
`11 inteipretation?
`12 A I don't know about scope. I know that I lWS
`13 able to apply it to cases that did not result in a
`14 location
`15 Q So )QU don't limit-- Stnl<e that.
`You did not linit in )Qtrr analysis Elerrent lB
`16
`17 to cases where location of the target was folll1Ci?
`18 A lbat's a rather broad statement. I applied
`19 each of these claim elements relative to the other claim
`20 elements referring to targets, referring to histograms,
`21 in the s pecific exarqlles of each ofthe prior art cases
`22 that I looked at.
`And IB could he applied in some of those cases
`23
`24 \\here the process of identifying the target in said at
`25 least one histogram itself did not end up- did not in
`
`I'll ask you to confine yourself to the
`I
`2 objections set forth in the Trial Practice Guide such as
`3 "objection, form." Specifically "objection, vague" is
`4 one of them that the board has stated specifically must
`5 not be made in these proceedings.
`6 BY MR. COULSON:
`7 Q So let's try --
`8
`MR. COOK: Okay. I'll let -- I'll do my best
`to conform my objections to that. I bel ieve I'm
`9
`I 0 entitled to state a brief word to explain the basis for
`II my objection. I didn't realize "vague" is one that's
`12 prohibited. I can check that, if you'd like. But my
`13 objections, I don't believe they're leading. I believe
`14 they're just a very brief statement of the basis for my
`15 obj ection.
`MR. COULSON: I just wanted to point the issue
`16
`17 out, and I'd ask you to not do that in the future.
`18
`MR. COOK: Okay.
`19 BYMR. COULSON:
`20 Q Dr. Hart, let me get back to our questions. So
`21 how do you understand the word "characteristic''?
`22 A The word "eharacteristic," I don't know that
`23 that's a term used in the '134.
`24 Q I think that's true.
`25 A But it is used in the '518.
`
`22
`
`24
`
`that pa rticular portion give a location.
`1
`2 Q Under your interpretation of Element I 8, would
`3
`identifying a characteristic of a target-- Strike that.
`4
`Under your interpretation of Element 18, would
`5
`finding a characteristic of the target through forming a
`6 histogram satisfy Element I B?
`7
`MR. COOK: Objection. Vague, incomplete
`8 hypothetical.
`9
`THE WI1NESS: So I belie\e characteristic is
`I 0 one of the claim elements from the '518, and so I don't
`11 want to -- you know, T don't want to refer to those
`12 claim elements, for example, when looking at the' 134.
`I basically applied the claim elements from
`13
`14 '1 34 to the prior art using the terms from the '134
`15 based on the context of the prior art and how those
`16 terms were used in the specification of the' 134
`17
`MR. COULSON: Can we go off the record for a
`18 second.
`19
`(Brief discussion held off the record.)
`MR. COULSON: Can we go back on, please.
`20
`21
`Okay. So, Counsel, you're making objectio ns
`22 that are -- the Trial Practice Guide specifi cally
`23 prohibits, and I've let it go on a little bit. I'\e
`24 tried to solve the issue off the record, but was
`25 unsuccessful.
`
`Q Well, so I'm asking you about -- if this helps,
`I
`I'm asking you about the '1 34 patent.
`2
`A Yes.
`3
`Q So I'm trying to understand your interpretation
`4
`5 of Element l 8 that you applied.
`6
`A Uh-huh.
`Q So I would like to -- we talked about location
`7
`8 a minute ago. You recall that. I'd like to understand
`if you understand Element 1 B such that finding any
`9
`I 0 characteristic about a target, say, for example, its
`11 color, would satisfy Element I -- satisfy the
`12 identifyingofEiement 18?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`13
`THE WI1NESS: So I didn't make any statement in
`14
`15 the declaration regarding the definition of
`16 "identifying" or the scope or what it encompasses. What
`17 I d id do is I applied I 8 to the prior att in some very
`18 specific cases and the context of the prior art and the
`19 context of the specification and made a judgment,
`20 expressed an opinion that·· whether or not that prior
`21 art met the limitation of identifying the target in one
`22 histogram.
`23
`And in some cases it did that without finding a
`24 location of the target.
`25 \\\
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`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D .
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`25
`
`7 (25 to 28)
`
`27
`
`A G iven a specific example, I would be quite
`1
`I BY MR. COULSON:
`2 sure.
`2 Q Maybe this will be easier for you. Can you
`3
`Q Based on your analysis that you completed so
`3 give me some examples of what would satisfy identifying
`4
`4
`in Element I B?
`far, you don't-- you can't say one Wc'IY or another?
`5
`A I could say one way or another given a specific
`5
`A Sure. So on Page 116 of my declaration,
`6 P ar agraph 158, " Gerhardt selects ani ntensity threshold 6 example. l did not provide an opinion generali:zi n g
`7
`7 C l aim Element l B in a vacuum.
`to identify pixels within t he intensity hlstogram that
`8 Q Well, let me back up. So in rendering your
`8 corr espond to the expected a r ea of t he user's pupil."
`Q I'm sorry. What paragraph, please?
`9
`9 opinion you looked at the patent, the ' 134 patent. And
`10 A 158.
`I 0 what we're talking about is your opinion in the' 134
`11 Q Would finding colors that characterize a target
`ll declaration. Okay?
`12 satisfy identifying of Element I B?
`12 A I ' m sorry. Was ther e a question ther e?
`13 Q Yes. I Wc'lnted to make sure \Ne're on the same
`13 A In t hi s exampl e of Gerha rdt I'm finding t he
`14 identification is of t he ar ea -- t he expected ar ea of
`14 page. We're talking about-- you understand we're
`I S the user's pupil. And so that's an ident ification.
`15 talking about your opinion in the '134 declaration.
`16 Ther e' s a bunch of other exa mples in th e cha r ts star ting
`16 Okay?
`17 at Page 143.
`17 A C orrect. We're talking abou t '134.
`18 Q Well, if it would help -- I don't know if
`18 Q So in doing your analysis, you looked at the
`19 this wi II help or not. We'll get to the prior art.
`19 disclosures of the '134 patent, right?
`20 A Yes, T did.
`20 Right now, before 1 get to this particular prior art
`21 Q You looked at the prosecution history for the
`21 applications, l'm asking you a question about
`22 Element l B. And let me try to restate the-- restate
`22 '134, right?
`23 A Yes, I did.
`23 the question one more time.
`24 Q And you also looked at the several prior art
`24
`Would color, would finding the color of a
`25 targetsatisfyidentifyingofEiement lB?
`25 references?
`
`28
`
`26
`I don't -- I didn't make a stat eme nt that broad
`A
`1
`in the declarati on. But ther e a r e examples ofutili:zing
`2
`3 a histogr am of brightness, ofluminance t hat ident ified
`4 a tar get.
`5 Q So would finding a color range characteristic
`6 of a target satisfy -- through forming a histogram
`7 satisfy Element I B?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`8
`9
`1HE WI1NESS: I didn't make that statement. I
`I 0 do have some examples where looking at a luminance
`11 histogram Wc'IS a form of identification of a target in
`12 the histogram that satisfies Claim Element I B.
`13 BYMR.COULSON:
`14 Q So you don't know whether finding a color range
`15 characteristic of a target through forming a histogram
`16 satisfies Element I B under your interpretation of the
`17 element?
`18
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`THE WI1NESS: I would need to see a specific
`19
`20 example so I could look at the context of what Wc'IS
`21 occurring, if it Wc'IS meet ing all of the requirements as
`22 made in the specification for the claim element, than
`23 the claim as a whole.
`24 BY MR. COULSON:
`25 Q So you're not sure?
`
`A Yes, I did.
`1
`2 Q And based on those things, you haven't reached
`3 a conclusion as to whether Element 1 B -- for Element 1 B
`4 as to whether finding a characteristic color range of a
`5
`target would satisfy identifying for Element l B; is that
`6
`right?
`7
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`11-IE WITNESS: What I did do is showed some
`8
`9 examples where using a luminance or an intensity
`I 0 histogram could be used in a specific example to
`11 identify a target that meets the limitation of Claim I B.
`12 BY MR. COULSON:
`13 Q ljustWc'lnttobeclearontherecordasto
`14 the -- based on your analysis, you can't say right now
`15 whether finding a c'haracteristic color of a target would
`16 satisfy identifying of element -- Claim Element I B?
`17
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`18
`lHE WITNESS: I didn't do any general analysis
`19 of individual claim elements in absence of the other
`20 daim elements, and I did not do any general analysis of
`21 the claim elements without applying them to any prior
`22 art. So the limits of my opinion are based on the
`23 application of these elements to the prior art and the
`24 enements as a whole.
`25 \\\
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`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`29
`
`8 (29 to 32)
`
`31
`
`I BYMR.COULSON:
`2
`Q So you don't have an opinion one way or another
`3 on that?
`4
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`5
`THE WI1NESS: I did not enter an opinion
`6 stating the general interpretation of I Bas it could be
`7 applied to anything.
`8 BY MR. COULSON:
`Q Well, I'm asking you specifically about
`9
`I 0 identifying a color range that is characteristic of a
`11 target. Do you understand that's what I'm asking you
`12 about?
`13
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`14
`THE WI1NESS: Do you have a copy of Gilbert?
`15 BY MR. COULSON:
`16 Q I do have copies of prior art. But I'm not
`17 asking about Gilbert or the other references right now.
`18
`Why do you need Gilbert to answer that?
`19 A Icould show you anexampleinGil bertofa--
`20 where a range of color values would satisfy Element lB.
`21 Q So your opinion is that finding a range of
`22 color values that is characteristic of a target does
`23 satisfy Element I B identifying; is that right?
`24
`MR. COOK: Objection. Misstates testimony.
`1HE WI1NESS: No. I can give you an example
`25
`
`that is characteristic of a target using a hi<>togran1,
`I
`2 would that satisfY Elerrent 1 B under your interpretation
`3 of the claim?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form
`4
`5
`THE WllNESS: I don't know. I would have to
`6 see the specific exarrple. And I don't recall boking at
`7 any exarq:>les that used hue and saturation that I
`8 analyzed to deterrrire if they rret the requirements of
`9 Elenent I B.
`10 BY MR. COULSON:
`ll Q Did you bok at any examples in your analysic;
`12 that used hue?
`t 3 A I don't recall any that used hue.
`14 Q Did you bok at any examples that used
`15 saturation?
`16 A
`I don't recall any that used saturation.
`17 Q Well, let ne go back to Elenent lB. Do you
`18 need a second to review the patent or whatever JUUre
`19 looking at?
`20 A
`l 'mjust looking at the abstract of '134. The
`21 bottom sentence mentions the donnins include lurrinance,
`22 hues, saturation, s peed, oriented direction, time
`23 concept, first axis and second axis.
`24 Q Would identifYing-- I'm going back to