`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`
`1
`
`1
`
`2
`
`I N D E X
`
`1 (1 to 4)
`
`3
`
`\.tilTED STATES PATENT AND T1lAOEW.RK OFFICE
`
`llffCIIf M PATfNT TRIAl. 1\Nt.l APPfAl. llOARD
`
`SAHSlJ'IG ELECJR(JI!CS CO., LID.
`
`)
`
`AI() SAHSWG ElfCJR(JI!CS Al'fRICA,)
`
`INC.,
`
`}
`
`}
`
`PETITIOOER,
`
`) CASE NO. IPR2017-01190
`
`)
`
`vs.
`
`) PATENT NO. 6 ,717 ,518
`
`!!'1>\GC PROCESSING TECit«X.OGIES
`
`LLC,
`
`)
`
`)
`
`) CASE NO. IPR2017-01218
`
`) PATENT NO. 8 ,983 ,134
`
`PATENT OWNER.
`
`}
`
`)
`
`EXPERT DEPOSITION OF JOHN C. HART, PH.D.
`
`FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 2017
`
`JOB NO. 117834
`
`REPORTED BY K!MBERL Y EDELEN, C. S. R. NO. 9042, CRR, RPR.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10 ,
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`3 WITNESS
`
`EXAM! NA liON
`
`PAGE
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`JO HN C. HART , Pn.D.
`
`BY MR . COULSON
`
`6
`
`EXHIBITS
`
`10
`
`,, NO .
`
`PAGE
`
`DESCRI PTION
`
`12 EX. 2012
`
`13
`
`13
`
`14 EX. 2013
`
`13
`
`15
`
`PRI NT OUT FROM PARALLEL
`COMPUTING INSTITUTE RE:
`JOHN C. HART
`
`PRINTOUT FROM COMPUTER
`GRAPHICS ILLINOIS RE :
`JOHN C. HART
`
`16 EX. 2014
`
`79
`
`HAND-DRAWN SKETCH
`
`17 EX . 2015
`
`1 31
`
`EYE DIAGRAM
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20 REFERENCED EXHIBITS PREVIOUSLY HARKED
`
`21
`
`NO.
`
`PAGE
`
`DESCRIPTION
`
`22 EX. 1001
`
`15
`
`25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`EXPERT DEPOSITION OF JOHN C. HART, Ph.D., TAKEN ON
`
`BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER I MAGE PROCESSING TEC HNOLOGIES
`
`LLC, AT 9:24A.M., FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 2017, AT
`
`400 SOUTH HOPE STREET, 18TH FLOOR, LOS ANGELES,
`
`CALIFORNIA, BEFORE KIMBERLY A. EDELEN, C.S.R. NO. 9042.
`
`CRR, RPR.
`
`APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER SAHSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. AND
`SAM SUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA ,
`I NC. :
`
`0' HELVE NY & HYERS LLP
`BY: BRIAN M. COOK, ESQ .
`NICHOLAS J. WHILT, ESQ.
`400 SOUTH HOPE STREET
`18TH FLOOR
`LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 9007 1
`213.430.6000
`BCOOK@OMM . COM
`NWHI LT@OMH. COM
`
`18
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER IMAGE PROCESSING TECHNOLOGIES LLC:
`
`ANDREWS KURTH KENYON LLP
`BY: CHRIS J. COULSON, ESQ.
`ONE BROADWAY
`NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10004
`212.425.7200
`CHRI SCOULSON@KENYON. COM
`
`19
`
`20
`
`2 1
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`23
`
`24
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 8, 983, 1 34 B2 DATED
`MARCH 1 7, 2015
`
`25
`
`(EXHIBITS CONTINUED ON FOLLOWING PAGE)
`
`2
`
`4
`
`REFERENCED EXHIBITS PREVIOUSLY !'1>\RKED
`
`NO.
`
`PAGe
`
`DESCRIPTION
`
`EX . 1002
`
`16
`
`EX. 1005
`
`109
`
`EX . 1006
`
`127
`
`EX. 1007
`
`174
`
`EX. 1009
`
`169
`
`EX. 1013
`
`40
`
`EX. 1014
`
`104
`
`DECLARATION OF OR . JCHl C. HART
`I N SUPPORT OF PETITION FOR
`I NTER PARTES REVIEW OF
`U.S. PATENT NO. 8,983,134
`
`"A REAL- TIME VIDEO TRACKING
`SYSTEN" BY ALTON L. GILBERT
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5 ,521,843 DATED
`HAY 28, 1996
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5,805, 720 DATED
`SEPTEMBER 8, 1998
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5,008,946 DATED
`APRIL 16, 1996
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 5, 481 , 622 DATED
`JANUARY 2, 1996
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT
`NO. 6,044,166 DATED
`MARCH 28, 2000
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`2
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`
`2 (S to 8)
`
`7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`5
`
`LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA ; FRIOAY, DECEMBER 22, 20 17 ;
`
`9 : 24 A.H.
`
`THE REPORTER : Pursuant to Federal Rules o f
`
`6 Civi l Procedure, 1 am requi r ed to s t ate the following :
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`My name i s Kim Edelen. My business add r e ss is
`
`14520 Sylvan Street, Van Nuys, Ca l i f orn ia 9141 1 . Th i s
`
`is the deposition of Or . John Hart in the matter o f
`
`10 Samsung El ectronics a nd Image Processing Techno logies,
`
`1 1 beg inn ing at 9 : 24a . m. , on December 22 , 20 17 . Th is
`
`12 deposition is taking place at the law offices of
`
`13 O'He l veny & Hyers at 400 South Hope Street, Los Angeles,
`
`14 California.
`
`15
`
`Counsel, will you please state your a ppearances
`
`16 for the record, and then I owi 11 swear in the witness .
`
`17
`
`HR. COULSON: For patent owner Image Process i ng
`
`18 Technologies, my name is Chr i s Coulson , Andrews Kurth
`
`19 Kenyon .
`
`20
`
`HR. COOK: And I'm Brian Cook.
`
`I ' m
`
`21
`
`r epresen ting -- f rom O' Helveny and Hyers.
`
`!'11
`
`22
`
`r epresent ing Samsung in this case . And I just want to
`
`23 put on the record that the witness. Dr . Hart, is
`
`24 appea r i ng in-- for a deposition in I PR 2017-1218 which
`
`25 deals with Patent 8983134. And IPR 20 17- 1 190 which
`
`I one of my questions, will you ask me so I can rephrase
`2
`it?
`A Sure.
`3
`Q And you're doing a good job of answering orally
`4
`5 but you'll -- you'll answer orally, not nod your head in
`6
`response to questions. Okay?
`7
`A Okay.
`Q So, Dr. Hart, what's your hourly rate for the
`8
`9 services you're providing to Samsung?
`10 A I charge an hourl y rate but i.t goes through a
`11 company that then bills Samsung. And I'm not sure what
`12 the r ules are fo r that di sclosure with respect to my
`13 contract with that company, so I don't know that I'm at
`14 li ber ty to say.
`15 Q Well, it's true this transcript will be
`16 publicly available, but I guess we will have the
`17 opportunity to mark material as confidential if
`18 necessary. So giwn --with Samsung's counsel we can
`19 work on that after the deposition.
`20
`So given that we'll have that option, can you
`21 tell me the hourly rate that's being charged fo r your
`22 services?
`23 A I don't know. I'm not sure w hat the group that
`24 I send my invoices to charges Samsung for my hourly
`25 rate.
`
`8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`l
`
`deals with Paten t 67 175 18, and that ' s the scope of h i s
`
`deposition today.
`
`Sorry. Wi th me also is my colleague Nick
`
`4 Whilt .
`
`JOHN C. HART , Ph. 0.,
`
`havi ng been first dul y swor n by the r eporter, was
`
`examined a nd testified as follows:
`
`8
`
`10 BY MR . COULSON:
`
`EXAMI NATION
`
`Good morn ing, Or . Hart .
`
`Good •orning .
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`14 please .
`
`Would you s t ate your name for t he record,
`
`John c. Hart.
`And what un iversi ty are you based at?
`
`The University of Illinois.
`And you've testifi e d -- it a ppears you ' ve
`
`Q Well, what's the rate that you are receiving?
`I
`A I don't know that I can disclose that based on
`2
`3 my contract with that company t hat charges for my
`4 services.
`5 Q Okay. So you won't tell me?
`6
`A It's somethi ng over $500 an hour . I'm not sure
`7 ofthe exact amount.
`Q Okay. We'll work with that. Try to work with
`8
`9
`that.
`Can you give me an idea roughly when you were
`I 0
`11 retained by Samsung?
`12 A I don't remember the exact date. It's been
`13 over a year.
`14 Q And rather than drilling in on the rate, can
`15 you giw me a sense of the total amount that you've
`16 received for your services to San1sung?
`17 A I reall y don't know. I have n't added it up.
`18 Q Can you-- apologies. About when were you
`I 9 retained?
`20 A It's been over a year. It hasn't been a year's
`21 worth of work front to back. It' s been as needed.
`22 Q And what -- approx.imate ly how many IPRs have
`23 you worked on for t he Samsung v. Image Processing liPRs?
`24 A I don' t have the exact account. It's at least
`25 these two and there's been others. but I don't remember
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`2 0
`
`2 1
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`testified befo r e in an ITC t rialj is that r i ght?
`
`And given depositions before?
`
`Yes.
`
`Yes.
`
`So you ' re generally faDlil iar wi th the process?
`
`Yes.
`
`So just as a reminde r , i f you don 't un derstand
`
`3
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`9
`
`3 (9 to 12)
`
`11
`
`the exact number.
`1
`Q More than five?
`2
`A I don't think it was more than five.
`3
`4 Q Around five?
`5
`A I don't know.
`6
`Q Okay. And have you submitted invoices to the
`7 company that submits invoices to Samstmg?
`8
`A Yes, I did.
`9
`Q Approxjmately how many have you sent?
`10 A I don't know. There's been months w her e there
`11 was no invoice sent. So something less than, you know,
`12 12, but ...
`13 Q Can you give me -- what's an amount-- can you
`14 recall the amount of any of the invoices roughly?
`15 A No. I add it up and send it off, and I don't
`16 remember the specific amounts.
`17 Q And how much time have you spent-- what did
`18 you do to prepare for thls deposition today?
`19 A I r ead through the patents, t he declarations
`20 and the other material s for the IPR.
`2 1 Q Did you meet with Samsung counsel?
`22 A Yes, I did.
`23 Q For about how long?
`24 A I don't know. At least a day.
`25 Q Is that here in L.A.?
`
`10
`
`Q Did Samsung counsel assist you in preparing
`I
`2 your declaration?
`3
`A Yes, they did.
`Q Were you provided with the prior references
`4
`5
`that you-- that are the subject ofyol.Jlf declaration by
`6 Samsungcounsel?
`7
`A I believe t hey pointed me to a lot of
`8
`references. I found-- I looked at references as well
`9 and I don't r ecall exactly, you know, how each one of
`10 the refe re nces was selected.
`II Q Can you identify any of the references for the
`12 '134 pate nt, Gilbert , Bassman, Gerhardt and Hashjma that
`13 were not provided to you by Samsung counsel?
`14 A No. I r eally don't recall going through all
`15 the refe re nces that we went t hrough, how each and every
`16 one ofthem was found.
`I 7 Q And for the '5 18, the references are Stringa,
`18 Ando and Suenaga. Do you recall any of those that were
`19 not provided to you by Samsung counsel?
`20 A No. I don't recall any specifics, how we got
`21 to any of those references.
`22 Q Can you recall any of the references that are
`2 3 at issue in the '13 4 or '518 IP R declarations that you
`24 located?
`25 A No. I don't remember speci fically which ones
`12
`
`1 and how they were found.
`A Yes.
`1
`2 Q And who did you treet with?
`2
`Q Did you locate any of the references that are
`the subject matter of your two declarations, the '134
`3
`3
`A
`I rret \\ith Brian and Nick.
`Q About how rruch tirre roughly does it -- have you
`4 and '518 declarations?
`4
`5 spent on preparing the declaration for the two IPRs at
`5
`A
`I don't recall. I know I found some
`6
`issue today?
`6
`re ferences. I don' t remember which and how they came
`7 about for each o ne . I just didn't document the-- you
`7
`A
`I don't have an exact nuniler. I didn't really
`look at how rmch tirre. If you add it up on the
`8 know, how these were located as part of my declaration.
`8
`9
`It would be pretty memorable if you found a
`Q
`9 declarations and then revie\\ing aU the materials needed
`I 0 reference that was used in an IPR pet ition, wouldn't it?
`10 for the deposition today, so I'm really not sure exactly
`11 how much tirre that \\Ould have been.
`II
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`12 Q So sitting rere today, you can't give me -- can
`12
`THE WilNESS: 1 find references all the time.
`13 you give me a roughestirmte?
`13 You know, I pride myself on knowing the literature, and
`14 A No. I oouldn't feel comfortable giving you a
`14 often I point to things that I'm aware of and those get
`15 incorporated. It's not unusual.
`15 rough estimate. I'm not exactly sure even, you know,
`16 BY MR. COULSON:
`16 order of magnitude how long that \v.lS.
`17 Q And do you k:row in the approxirmte --
`17 Q But nothing is coming to mind for the '134 and
`18 '5 18 petition references?
`18 approxirmte one year that :you worked with Sarrsung for
`19 the lrmge Processing v. Sa:mrung rmtters, how rmny tmnths
`19 A No. I don't have that specifi·c of a
`20 did you have no activi1y?
`20 recoll ection of w hat we did to find those references.
`21 Q Well, let me hand you, and I will mark a
`21 A So first I think it's been more than a year.
`22 Q 1hmk yott
`22 couple, I think, Unjversity of Illinois web pages we
`23 A And I don't know how many months it's been
`23 located. We'll mark these as 201 2 and 2013, please.
`24 nithout activity. I know there's been months 'mere
`24
`Exhjbit 20 12 is a printout of a web page from
`25 Pa:rallel.Tllinois.edu. The top is labeled Parallel
`25 there's not been activity. I don't remember how many.
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`4
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`13
`
`4 (13 to 16)
`
`IS
`
`I Corq:mting lrntitute.
`2
`~positbn Exlubit No. 2012
`was marked lOr identification.)
`3
`4 BY MR. COULSON:
`Q Do you recognize Exhibit 2012?
`5
`A Yes, I do.
`6
`Q What is it?
`7
`A It's a printout of the - of a page describing
`8
`9 my rreni>ership in the ParaiJel Corq>uting Institute.
`10 Q What is tre Parallel Corrputing Institute?
`11 A It's kind of an llllDreiJa organization at the
`12 University of Illinois that coUects faculty a:nd others
`13 that have interest in parallel corq>uting that have
`14 \'IOrked on projects for paraUel corq>uting.
`My main oork ,\ith the ParaUel CoqAAing
`15
`16 Institute was as one of the rrenners ofthe Universal
`17 Parallel Corq>uting Research Center, the UPCRC that \v.lS
`18 s ponsored by Intel and Microsoft at the University of
`19 Illinois, I think, from around 2007 to 2012 and a little
`20 bit beyond that.
`Q Can )QU tun to the next exhibit, 2013, please.
`21
`~positbn Exlubit No. 2013
`22
`was marked fOr identification)
`23
`24 BYMR COULSON:
`lblt has at the top John C. Hart, Corrputer
`25 Q
`
`Q What is shape and modeling?
`I
`2
`A Shape m odeHng is a general field. It would
`3
`in clude t hings li ke C omput er Aided Design and the
`4 abili ty to describe a s hape, for example, like this
`5 bottle ofwater , numerically, so t hat it co uld be
`re pr esented com p utatio nally.
`6
`Q You can put aside those two exhibits, Dr. Hart.
`7
`I'm going to hand you a copy of the '134 patent
`8
`that has been previously marked as Exhibit I 00 I in
`9
`10 IPR2017- 12 18.
`You're prepared to talk about the '134 patent?
`11
`12 A Yes, I am .
`13 Q Can you turn-- all set?
`14 A Yeah.
`15 Q Can you turn to the end ofthe ' 134 patent, the
`16 claims section.
`17 A Okay.
`18 Q And I wanted to gi'Ye you an opportunity to look
`19 at Claim 3, and it's independent Claim I for the next
`20 series of questions.
`Do you have those? Bottom right column.
`21
`22 A Yeah.
`23 Q You understand that Claim 3 depends from
`24 Claim 1 and includes all the limitations of Claim 1,
`25 right?
`
`14
`
`16
`
`I Graphics Illinois.
`Do you see that?
`2
`3
`A Yes, I do.
`Q Do you recognize Exhibit 20 13?
`4
`A Yes, I do.
`5
`Q And what is it?
`6
`A This is the - from the \\ebsite
`7
`8 Graphics.cs.Diinois.EDU. There are entries for faculty
`9 and students and others, and this is the e ntry for
`10 pointing to rre describing sorre of my \'IOrk in corq>uter
`11 graphics.
`12 Q Can )QU look under ''Title & Interests" next to
`13 your pootograph on Exhibit 2013, please. It says "CS -
`14 high perfOrmance graphics, shape m:xleling."
`Do you see trot?
`15
`16 A Yes.
`17 Q What's high perfOrmance graphics?
`18 A High perfonnance graphics is - it's 1'\0rking
`19 \\ith algorithms, rrethods, approaches for doing corq>uter
`20 graphics and related techniques on high perfonnance
`21 platfonns, often parallel platfonns, special purpose
`22 harmv.tre platfonns, or even general purpose co"l>uter
`23 platfonns focusing on s peed and getting tltings
`24 acconpished at a higher rate of s peed tha:n \v.lS possible
`25 before.
`
`A Yes.
`1
`Q For Claim I I understand that you have used
`2
`lettering, I think both parties have used lettering for
`3
`4 certain claim eleme nts, so I wanted to make sure we're
`5 on the same page with the lettering before we get into
`the claim. Okay.
`6
`If you can refer to -- I see you're looking at
`7
`8 your declaration. You can refer to wherever you want,
`9 of course, but let me point you to Page 53 , 55.
`MR. COOK: Of course the declaration you're
`10
`11 referring to is marked as Exhibit I 002; is that right?
`M R. COULSON: That's a good point. I'll hand
`12
`13 it out. I see the witness has brought declarations with
`14 him, but I should hand out copies, so I'll do that now.
`MR. COOK: I have a copy of it, actually.
`15
`16 BY MR. COULSON:
`17 Q So, Dr. Hart, I'll hand youacopyofSamsung
`18 Exhibit I 002 for the '134 patent, IPR. This is a
`19 stapled double-sided version. Maybe that will help you.
`20 That's been previously marked. And you can refer to the
`21 one you brought or Exhibit I 002 that I've handed you,
`22 whichever you prefer.
`23 A Okay. Thanks.
`24 Q You see for Claim I , the claim paragraph
`25 beginning with "forming at least one histogram" that you
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`5
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`17
`
`5 (17 to 20)
`
`I
`referred to on Page 55, Section B of your declaration,
`2 Exhibit 1002?
`3
`A Yes. "Forming at least one hi stogram of the
`4 pixels."
`5 Q Yes. So if we refer to Exhibit-- excuse me.
`6 Strike that.
`If we refer to Claim Element 1 A you'll
`7
`8 understand we're referring to the claim element "forming
`9 at least one histogram of the pixels in the one or more
`I 0 of a plurality of classes in the one or more of a
`11 plurality of domains, said at least one histogram
`12 referring to classes defining said target."
`13 A Yes.
`14 Q And for Element 1 B, I'll refer you to Page 57
`15 of your declaration.
`Do you have that?
`16
`17 A Uh-huh.
`18 Q If we refer to Element 1 B today, you'll
`19 understand that to refer to '~dentifying the target in
`20 said at least one histogram itself'?
`21 A Yes.
`22 Q Element 1 C is on Page 59, among other places in
`23 your declaration.
`If we refer to Element 1C we can agree that
`24
`25 we're referring to "wherein forming the at least one
`
`19
`interpretation is as I've demonstrated it in comparison
`1
`2 with in this case Gerhardt and Bassman.
`Q T'd like to ask you about the claim limitation
`3
`4 and you applied, I understand, essentially plain meaning
`to your interpretation of the claim dements, right?
`5
`6 You didn't apply any special meaning to the elements of
`7 Claim 1 or Claim 3?
`8
`A I applied plain and ordinary meaning of what a
`9 person of ordinary ski II in the a rt would have uti I ized
`10 at the time ofthe patent based on what was disclosed in
`11 the patent itself. And that was sufficient for-- to
`12 understand how each of the claims was applied with
`13 respect to both the embodiments i n the patent and in the
`14 prior art that I examined.
`15 Q For Element I B, does identifying the target
`16 require locating the target in space?
`17 A I didn't come up with a formal definition of
`18 "identifYing." I used the term "identifYing" to look at
`19 how the histogram was being used, and with respect to
`20 the target in each ofthe cases that I applied this
`21 claim limitation t o, and in each case it was clear what
`22 was meant by "identifYing." So in some cases, yes,
`23 "identifYing" meant locating, but in other cases it
`24 didn't necessarily mean "locating."
`25 Q So if I understand you correctly, your
`
`20
`
`18
`I histogram further comprises determining X minima and
`2 maxima and Y minima and maxima of boundaries of the
`3
`target"; is that right?
`4
`A Yes. I believe in -- here on Page 59, I've got
`5
`it as "wherein identifYing the tar get in said at l east
`6 one his togram," and I believe it's wherein forming this
`7 copy of the patent, so given that, yes.
`8 Q Okay. So I'll just do this quickly. Looking
`9 at the patent, we'll agree that Element 1 C refers to
`I 0 "wherein forming the at least one histogram further
`11 comprises determining X minima and maxima andY minima
`12 and maxima of bolmdaries of the target," right?
`13 A Right.
`14 Q Let me point you back to Page 57 of your
`15 declaration, Exhibit I 002 of the ' 134. And I'll just
`16 note we'll be going through the ' 134 declaration, which
`17 is the IPR 2017-1 218. So that's Exhibit L002 I'm
`18 referring to.
`19
`Are you with me on that page?
`20 A Yes. Page 57.
`21 Q Yes.
`What's your interpretation of Element I B,
`22
`23 '~dentifying the target in said at least one histogram
`24 itself?
`25 A It's as the declaration states, it's-- my
`
`interpretation of Element I B is that identifying, it
`I
`2 doesn't require locating the target?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Misstates testimony.
`3
`THE WllNESS: As I said before, it depends on
`4
`5
`the example. So there were examples where -- there were
`6 examples where that met this claim limitation where
`identifying was referring to locating and other examples
`7
`8 where identifying was not referring to locating.
`9 BY MR. COULSON:
`I 0 Q So if they're examples and your interpretation
`11 of Claim Element I B where identifying doesn't require
`12 locating, then I understand correctly your
`13 interpretation of Element I B is that it doesn't require
`14 locating the target?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Misstates testimony.
`15
`THE WTlNESS: I think all I'm saying is that in
`16
`17 some cases when I applied Claim Limitation I B to prior
`18 art, there were examples where I felt the prior art met
`19 the claim limitation. But the identification of the
`20 target was not necessarily a location.
`21 BYMR. COULSON:
`22 Q So you would read Element I B to encompass
`23 identifying that does not identify a location of the
`24 target?
`25 A I don't beli eve I made any statement about
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`6
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`21
`
`6 (21 to 24)
`
`23
`
`1 encoll113ssing or defining the '\mrd " identifying." I
`think a D I'm saying is that '"hen I applied Oaim
`2
`3 Element 1 B to the prior a rt, there l\Cre cases ""here it
`4 nas clear that Oaim Element 1 B applied to the prior a rt
`5 but the result llaS not a location of the target
`Q Claim Elerrent I B would include cases tint --
`6
`7 where iderrification does not locate the target then?
`A
`I llaS able to find exa~es \\here that llaS the
`8
`9 case.
`10 Q So that's in the scope of I B under )Qtr
`ll interpretation?
`12 A
`I don't know about scope. I know that I was
`13 able to apply it to cases that did not result in a
`14 location
`15 Q So you don't linit -- Strike that.
`You dii not 1irrit in your analysis Elerrert l B
`16
`17 to cases where location of the target was found?
`18 A That's a rather broad statement I applied
`19 each of these claim elements relative to the other claim
`20 elemernts refe rring to targets, referring to his tograms,
`21 in the specific exa~es of each of the prior art cases
`22 that I looked at
`23
`And lB could be applied in some of those cases
`24 \\here the process of identifYing the target in said at
`25 least one histogram itself did not end up- did not in
`
`I'll ask you to confine yourself to the
`I
`2 objections set forth in the Trial Practice Guide such as
`3 "objection, form." Specifically "objection, vague" is
`4 one of them that the board has stated! specifically must
`5 not be made in these proceedings.
`6 BY MR. COULSON:
`Q So let's try --
`7
`MR. COOK: Okay. I'll let -- I'll do my best
`8
`to conform my objections to that. I believe I'm
`9
`I 0 entitled to state a brief word to explain the basis for
`II my objection. I didn't realize "vague" is one that's
`12 prohibited. I can check that, if you'd like. But my
`13 objections, I don't believe they're leading. I believe
`14 they're just a very brief statement of the basis for my
`15 objection.
`MR. COULSON: I just wanted to point the issue
`16
`l 7 out, and I'd ask you to not do that in the future.
`MR. COOK: Okay.
`18
`19 BY MR. COULSON:
`20 Q Dr. Hart, let me get back to our questions. So
`21 how do you understand the word "characteristic''?
`22 A The word "eharacteristic," I don't know that
`23 th at's a term used in the '134.
`I think that's true.
`24 Q
`25 A But it is u sed in the '518.
`
`22
`
`24
`
`that particula r por tion give a location.
`1
`Q Under your interpretation of Element I B, would
`2
`identifying a characteristic of a target-- Strike that.
`3
`U nder your interpretation of Element I B, would
`4
`5 finding a characteristic of the target through forming a
`6 histogram satisfy Element I B?
`MR COOK: Objection. Vague, incomplete
`7
`8 hypothetical.
`lHE WllNESS: So I believe characteristic is
`9
`I 0 one of the claim elements from the '518, and so I don't
`II want to -- you know, I don't want to refer to those
`12 c laim elements, for example, when looking at the '134.
`I basically applied the claim elements from
`13
`14 '134 to the prior art using the tenns from the '134
`15 based on the context of the prior art and how those
`16 terms were used in the specification of the' 134
`MR COULSON: Can we go off the record for a
`17
`18 second.
`(Brief discussion held off the record.)
`19
`MR COULSON: Can we go back on, please.
`20
`Okay. So, CounseE, you're makjng objectio ns
`21
`22 that are -- the Trial Practice Guide specifically
`23 prohibits, and I've let it go on a little bit. I've
`24 tried to solve the issue off the record, but was
`25 unsuccessful.
`
`Q Well, so T'm asking you about -- if this helps,
`I
`I'm asking you about the '134 patent.
`2
`A Yes.
`3
`Q So T'm trying to understand your interpretation
`4
`5 of Element l B that you applied.
`A Uh-huh.
`6
`Q So I would like to -- we talked! about location
`7
`8 a minute ago. You recall that. I'd like to understand
`9 if you understand Element lB such that finding any
`I 0 characteristic about a target, say, for example, its
`11 color, would satisfy Element I -- satisfy the
`12 identifying of Element I B?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`13
`lHE WllNESS: So I didn't make any statement in
`14
`15 the declaration regarding the definition of
`16 "identifying" or the scope or what it encompasses. What
`17 I did do is I applied I B to the prior art in some \>ery
`18 specific cases and the context of the prior art and the
`19 context of the specification and made a j udgment,
`20 expressed an opinion that-- whether or not that prior
`21 art met the limitation of identifying the target in one
`22 histogram.
`And in some cases it did that without finding a
`23
`24 location of the target.
`25 \\\
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`7
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`25
`
`7 (25 to 28)
`
`27
`
`A G iven a specific example, I would be quite
`1
`I BY MR. COULSON:
`2 sure.
`2 Q Maybe this will be easier for you. Can you
`3 give me some examples of what would satisfy ide ntifying
`3
`Q Based on your analysis that you completed so
`4
`4
`in Element I B?
`far, you don't -- you can't say one way or another?
`5
`A I could say one way or another given a specific
`5
`A Sure. So on Page 116 of my declaration,
`6 Paragraph 158, "Gerhardt selects ani ntensity threshold 6 example. I d id not provide an opinion generalizing
`7
`7 C laim Element 1B in a vacuum.
`to identify pixels within the intensity histogram that
`8 correspond to the expected area of t he user's pupil."
`8
`Q Well, let me back up. So in rendering your
`9
`9 opinion you looked at the patent, the '134 patent. And
`Q I'm sorry. What paragraph, please?
`10 A 158.
`I 0 what we're talking about is your opinion in the '134
`II Q Would finding colors that characterize a target
`II declaration. Okay?
`12 satisfy identifying of Element I B?
`12 A I ' m sorry. Was there a question ther e?
`13 A ln thisexampleofGerhardtl'm:findingthe
`13 Q Yes. Iwantedtomakesurewe'reonthesame
`14 identification is oft he area-- the expected area of
`14 page. We're talking about-- you understand we're
`15 the user's pupil. And so that's an ident ification.
`15 talking about your opinion in the' 134 declaration.
`16 There's a bunch of other examples in the charts star ting
`16 Okay?
`17 at Page 143.
`17 A Corr ect. We're talking about '134.
`18 Q Well, if it would help-- I don't know if
`18 Q So in doing your analysis, you looked at the
`19 this wi II help or not. We'll get to the prior art.
`19 disclosures of the '134 patent, right?
`20 Right now, before I get to this particular prior art
`20 A Yes, I did.
`21 Q You looked at the prosecution history for the
`21 applications, f'm asking you a question about
`22 Element lB. And let me try to restate the-- restate
`22 '134, right?
`23 the question one more time.
`23 A Yes, I did.
`24
`Would color, would finding the color of a
`24 Q And you also looked at the several prior art
`25 target satisfy identifying of Element I B?
`25 references?
`
`28
`
`26
`A I don't-- I didn't make a state me nt that broad
`1
`in the declaration. But there are examples of utilizing
`2
`3 a histogram ofbrightness, ofluminance that identified
`4 a target.
`5 Q So would finding a color range characteristic
`6 of a target satisfy -- through forming a histogram
`7 satisfy Element I B?
`8
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`9
`lHE WllNESS: I didn't make that statement. I
`I 0 do have some examples where looking at a luminance
`11 histogram was a form of identification of a target in
`12 the histogram that satisfies Claim Element I B.
`13 BY MR. COULSON:
`14 Q So you don't know whether finding a color range
`15 characteristic of a target through forming a histogram
`16 satisfies Element I B under your interpretation of the
`17 e lement?
`MR COOK: Objection. Form.
`18
`19
`lHE WllNESS: I \I\!Ould need to see a specific
`20 example so I could look at the context of what was
`21 occurring, if it was meet ing all of the requirements as
`22 made i:n the specification for the claim element, than
`23 the c laim as a whole.
`24 BY MR. COULSON:
`25 Q So you're not sure?
`
`A Yes, I did.
`1
`Q And based on those things, you haven't reached
`2
`3 a ·conclusion as to whether Element 1 B -- for Element l B
`4 as to whether finding a characteristic color range of a
`target would satisfy identifying for Element l B; is that
`5
`6
`right?
`7
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`THE WilNESS: What I did do is showed some
`8
`9 examples where using a luminance or an intensity
`I 0 hi stogram could be used in a specific example to
`11 identify a target that meets the I imitation of Claim I B.
`12 BYMR. COULSON:
`13 Q
`I just want to be clear on the record as to
`14 the -- based on your analysis, you can't say right now
`15 whether finding a characteristic color of a target would
`16 satisfy identifying of e lement -- Claim Element I B?
`17
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`THE WllNESS: I didn't do any general analysis
`18
`19 of individual claim elements in absence of the other
`20 claim e lements, and I did not do any general analysis of
`21 the claim e lements without applying them to any prior
`22 art. So the limits of my opinion are based on the
`23 application of these e lements to the prior art and the
`24 elements as a whole.
`25 \\\
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 1 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`8
`
`

`

`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 22, 2017
`29
`
`8 (29 to 32)
`
`31
`
`I BY MR. COULSON:
`2
`Q So you don't have an opinion one way or another
`3 on that?
`4
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`5
`1HE WllNESS: I did not enter an opinion
`6 stating the general interpretation of I Bas it could be
`7 applied to anything.
`8 BY MR. COULSON:
`Q Well, I'm asking you specifically about
`9
`I 0 identifYing a color range that is characteristic of a
`ll target. Do you understand that's \\<hat I'm asking you
`12 about?
`13
`MR. COOK: Objection. Form.
`1HE WllNESS: Do you have a copy of Gilbert?
`14
`15 BY MR. COULSON:
`16 Q I do have copies of prior art. But I'm not
`17 asking about Gilbert or the other references right now.
`18
`Why do you need Gilbert to answer that?
`19 A I could show you an example in Gilbert of a --
`20 where a range of color values would satisfy Element lB.
`21 Q So your opinion is that finding a range of
`22 color wlues that is characteristic of a target does
`23 satisfy Element I B identifying; is that right?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Misstates testimony.
`24
`1HE WllNESS: No. I can give you an example
`25
`
`that is characteristic of a target using a histogram,
`I
`2 would that satisfY Eletrent IB unter your interpretatbn
`3 of the claim?
`MR. COOK: Objection. Fomt
`4
`5
`THE WllNESS: I don't know. I would have to
`6 see the specific exarrple. And I don't recaU boking at
`7 any exarrples that used hue and saturatbn that I
`8 analyzed to detenrire if they rret the requirerrents of
`9 Elerrert I B.
`I 0 BY MR. COULSON:
`ll Q Did you look at any examples in )'Qtr amlysis
`12 that used hue?
`13 A I don't recaU any that used hue.
`14 Q Did you look at any examples that used
`15 saturation?
`16 A I don't recaU any that used saturation.
`17 Q Well, let rre go back to Elemert I B. Do you
`18 reed a second to review the patett or whatever you're
`19 looking at?
`20 A
`I'm just looking at the abstract of'l34. The
`21 bottom sentence mentions the domai