· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· ·Twitter, Inc.,· · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · Petitioner,· · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · ·)· CASE NO. IPR2017-01131
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· ·VidStream LLC,· · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · Patent Owner.· · · · )· PATENT 8,464,304
`· ·__________________________)
`·
`· · · · · · · ·********************************
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · ORAL DEPOSITION
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · JAMES OLIVIER, PH.D.
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·July 24, 2018
`·
`· · · · · · · *********************************
`·
`· · · · ORAL DEPOSITION OF JAMES OLIVIER, Ph.D., produced
`·
`· ·as a witness at the instance of the Petitioner and duly
`·
`· ·sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause
`·
`· ·on the 24th day of July, 2018, from 9:02 a.m. to 3:16
`·
`· ·p.m., before April Balcombe-Anderson, Certified
`·
`· ·Shorthand Reporter and Certified Realtime Reporter in
`·
`· ·and for the State of Texas, reported by computerized
`·
`· ·stenotype machine at the offices of Norton Rose
`·
`· ·Fulbright US LLP, 98 San Jacinto Boulevard, Suite 1100,
`·
`· ·Austin, Texas 78701, pursuant to the Federal Rules of
`·
`· ·Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record
`·
`· ·or attached hereto.
`·
`· ·Job: 29246
`·
`
`Page 1 of 177
`
`
`
`· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· ·Twitter, Inc.,· · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · Petitioner,· · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · ·)· CASE NO. IPR2017-01131
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· ·VidStream LLC,· · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · Patent Owner.· · · · )· PATENT 8,464,304
`· ·__________________________)
`·
`· · · · · · · ·********************************
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · ORAL DEPOSITION
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · JAMES OLIVIER, PH.D.
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·July 24, 2018
`·
`· · · · · · · *********************************
`·
`· · · · ORAL DEPOSITION OF JAMES OLIVIER, Ph.D., produced
`·
`· ·as a witness at the instance of the Petitioner and duly
`·
`· ·sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause
`·
`· ·on the 24th day of July, 2018, from 9:02 a.m. to 3:16
`·
`· ·p.m., before April Balcombe-Anderson, Certified
`·
`· ·Shorthand Reporter and Certified Realtime Reporter in
`·
`· ·and for the State of Texas, reported by computerized
`·
`· ·stenotype machine at the offices of Norton Rose
`·
`· ·Fulbright US LLP, 98 San Jacinto Boulevard, Suite 1100,
`·
`· ·Austin, Texas 78701, pursuant to the Federal Rules of
`·
`· ·Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record
`·
`· ·or attached hereto.
`·
`· ·Job: 29246
`·
`
`Page 1 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · APPEARANCES
`
`·2
`
`·3 FOR PETITIONER:
`
`·4· · · MR. TODD M. SIEGEL, ESQ.
`· · · · Klarquist Sparkman, LLP
`·5· · · One World Trade Center
`· · · · 121 SW Salmon Street, Suite 1600
`·6· · · Portland, Oregon 97204
`· · · · Telephone: 503.595.5300
`·7· · · Email: todd.siegel@klarquist.com
`
`·8
`
`·9 FOR RESPONDENT:
`
`10· · · MR. EAGLE ROBINSON, ESQ.
`· · · · MR. ERIC CONLEY GREEN, ESQ.
`11· · · Norton Rose Fulbright US LLP
`· · · · 98 San Jacinto Boulevard, Suite 1100
`12· · · Austin, Texas 78701-4255
`· · · · Telephone: 512.474.5201
`13· · · Email: eagle.robinson@nortonrosefulbright.com
`· · · · Email: eric.green@nortonrosefulbright.com
`14
`
`15
`
`16 ALSO PRESENT:
`
`17· · · James Oliver, Ph.D.,
`
`18· · · the Witness; and
`
`19· · · Ms. April C. Balcombe-Anderson,
`
`20· · · the Court Reporter.
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 2 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·3 JAMES OLIVIER, PH.D.
`
`·4 Examination by Mr. Siegel .........................6
`
`·5 Examination by Mr. Robinson .....................133
`
`·6 Signature Page· .................................142
`
`·7 Court Reporter's Certificate ....................144
`
`·8
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
`
`10
`
`11 EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`12 Exhibit 1001· ·United States Patent 8,601,506· · ·34
`· · · · · · · · · and 8,464,304
`13
`· ·Exhibit 1006· ·A Mobile Phone-Based· · · · · · · ·64
`14· · · · · · · · Context-Aware Video Management
`· · · · · · · · · Application
`15
`· ·Exhibit 1007· ·Patent Application to Conway· · · 128
`16
`· ·Exhibit 1033· ·Fonearena.com Nokia E50· · · · · · 95
`17· · · · · · · · specifications
`
`18 Exhibit 1034· ·CNET.com document entitled· · · · ·98
`· · · · · · · · · "Nokia E50-1 - smartphone - GSM
`19· · · · · · · · Series Specs"
`
`20 Exhibit 1035· ·Mobile88.com Nokia N73· · · · · · ·99
`· · · · · · · · · Specification
`21
`· ·Exhibit 1036· ·10/10/2006 article entitled· · · ·100
`22· · · · · · · · "Samsung Starts Selling World's
`· · · · · · · · · First 10 Megapixel Camera
`23· · · · · · · · Phone"
`
`24 Exhibit 1037· ·Letsgodigital.com article· · · · ·102
`· · · · · · · · · referencing Samsung SCH-V7770
`25
`
`Page 3 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS (cont.)
`
`·2 EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3 Exhibit 1038· ·Cypress Semiconductor· · · · · · ·104
`· · · · · · · · · Corporation Advance Information
`·4· · · · · · · · for CYIWCDC1300AA
`
`·5 Exhibit 1039· ·"Multimedia on Symbian OS,· · · · 107
`· · · · · · · · · Inside the Convergence Device."
`·6
`· ·Exhibit 1040· ·Document from Symbian Developer· ·115
`·7· · · · · · · · Library entitled "Class
`· · · · · · · · · TCameraInfo"
`·8
`· ·Exhibit 1041· ·Document entitled "Class· · · · · 118
`·9· · · · · · · · CCamera" from Symbian Developer
`· · · · · · · · · Library
`10
`· ·Exhibit 1042· ·Document entitled "Class· · · · · 119
`11· · · · · · · · CCamera" from Symbian Developer
`· · · · · · · · · Library
`12
`· ·Exhibit 1043· ·2006 Symbian.com document· · · · ·119
`13· · · · · · · · entitled "Developer Network,
`· · · · · · · · · S60 SDKs"
`14
`· ·Exhibit 1044· ·Document entitled "Symbian· · · · 121
`15· · · · · · · · Phones"
`
`16 Exhibit 1045· ·Article from Wire.com entitled· · 122
`· · · · · · · · · "By Open Sourcing Symbian,
`17· · · · · · · · Nokia Kicks off the Mobile Age"
`
`18 Exhibit 1046· ·Article from Mobile-Review.com· · 123
`· · · · · · · · · entitled "The company of Sharp
`19· · · · · · · · - models of 2005 and strategy"
`
`20 Exhibit 1047· ·Symbian OS SDK v8.1 from· · · · · 126
`· · · · · · · · · Symbian Developer Library
`21
`· ·Exhibit 2002· ·Exhibit 2002 IPR2017-01131· · · · ·13
`22
`· ·Exhibit 2002· ·Exhibit 2002 IPR2017-01133· · · · ·13
`23
`· ·Exhibit 2003· ·Review of GSM Phone Nokia 6270· · ·54
`24
`· ·Exhibit 2004· ·Nokia E50 Hands-on Preview from· · 55
`25· · · · · · · · 1131 IPR
`
`Page 4 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS (cont.)
`
`·2 EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3
`· ·Exhibit 2005· ·Specifications of the Nokia· · · · 56
`·4· · · · · · · · 6630 camera phone from 1131 IPR
`
`·5 Exhibit 2006· ·Nokia 6630 (Nokia Charlie) in· · · 58
`· · · · · · · · · 1131 IPR from 1131 IPR
`·6
`· ·Exhibit 2007· ·Nokia 6630 Smartphone GSM/UMTS· · ·59
`·7· · · · · · · · Series Specs from 1131 IPR
`
`·8
`
`·9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 5 of 177
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·(Witness sworn).
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · ·JAMES OLIVIER, PH.D.,
`
`·4 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`·6 QUESTIONS BY MR. SIEGEL:
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·Mr. Olivier, have you been deposed before?
`
`·8· · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.
`
`·9· · ·Q.· ·How many times?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·I stopped counting when I hit around 20.· So
`
`11 I'd say 20-25 times.
`
`12· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you prepare for this deposition
`
`13 today?
`
`14· · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`15· · ·Q.· ·And did you meet with anybody in preparation
`
`16 for the deposition?
`
`17· · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·And who did you meet with?
`
`19· · ·A.· ·Eric and Eagle.
`
`20· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when did you meet with him?
`
`21· · ·A.· ·Yesterday.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·And did you talk about the deposition
`
`23 procedure?
`
`24· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection to the extent it
`
`25 calls for anything attorney-client privilege.
`
`Page 6 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·A.· ·No, we did not.
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) Okay.· Then I will just
`
`·3 explain.· So we're here today to ask you some questions
`
`·4 regarding two declarations you submitted in connection
`
`·5 with two different IPR proceedings.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·Are you familiar with that?
`
`·7· · ·A.· ·Yes, I am.
`
`·8· · ·Q.· ·And the IPR proceedings are entitled
`
`·9 "IPR2017-01131" and "IPR2017-01133."
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Do you recall those numbers?
`
`11· · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`12· · ·Q.· ·And if we refer to them as "1131" or "1133,"
`
`13 you'll understand that we're talking about those two
`
`14 different IPR proceedings?
`
`15· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · ·Q.· ·Is that reasonable?
`
`17· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so I am here to ask you some
`
`19 questions regarding the declarations you submitted.
`
`20 Just be sure to let me finish asking my questions before
`
`21 you answer.
`
`22· · · · · · · ·Is that all right?
`
`23· · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·And be sure to give verbal responses because
`
`25 the court reporter is taking down the testimony.
`
`Page 7 of 177
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·Is that reasonable?
`
`·2· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·And if you ever need a break, feel free to just
`
`·4 ask for a break.· I just ask that you don't ask for a
`
`·5 break if a question's pending.
`
`·6· · ·A.· ·Sure.
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And -- yeah, and -- if you don't
`
`·8 understand a question I ask, ask me to rephrase it.
`
`·9 Otherwise, I'll assume that you understood what I asked.
`
`10· · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·Fair enough?
`
`12· · ·A.· ·Sure.
`
`13· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so the -- when were you first
`
`14 contacted about this proceeding?
`
`15· · ·A.· ·It would be in June sometime -- May, May
`
`16 sometime, end -- towards the end of May.
`
`17· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who contacted you?
`
`18· · ·A.· ·Brett Govett.· He's an attorney.
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·With what firm?
`
`20· · ·A.· ·Norton Rose.
`
`21· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you're being compensated for your
`
`22 efforts in this proceeding?
`
`23· · ·A.· ·I expect to be, yes.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Is it based on an hourly rate?
`
`25· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`Page 8 of 177
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`
`
`·1· · ·Q.· ·What is your hourly rate?
`
`·2· · ·A.· ·525.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·And about how many hours have you put into this
`
`·4 matter to date?
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·I don't know.· I didn't go back and look over
`
`·6 it.· To date, over 100 probably.· Less than 120, if I'm
`
`·7 going to have to guess.
`
`·8· · ·Q.· ·And who prepared the declarations that you
`
`·9 signed?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·I did.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·Did you have assistance with counsel?
`
`12· · ·A.· ·They provided some suggestions.
`
`13· · ·Q.· ·Did you meet with the counsel in person when
`
`14 you were preparing the declaration?
`
`15· · ·A.· ·We may have met once to prepare for the
`
`16 declaration to discuss it.
`
`17· · ·Q.· ·And when you prepared for the deposition, that
`
`18 was yesterday, you said?
`
`19· · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`20· · ·Q.· ·Did you review any materials?
`
`21· · ·A.· ·I reviewed my declaration.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·Anything else?
`
`23· · ·A.· ·No.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·And --
`
`25· · ·A.· ·Oh, sorry.· And the exhibits in the
`
`Page 9 of 177
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`
`
`·1 declaration.
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You don't recall reviewing anything that
`
`·3 wasn't an exhibit to the declaration?
`
`·4· · ·A.· ·No.
`
`·5· · ·Q.· ·And then to the extent you relied on any
`
`·6 documents in forming the opinions expressed in your --
`
`·7 in your declarations, were those documents identified in
`
`·8 the declaration?
`
`·9· · ·A.· ·Sorry.· Could you just go through that slowly?
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·Sure.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·And I'm -- let me just ask it this way:
`
`12 In preparing your declarations, do you rely on any
`
`13 documents that were not identified in the declarations?
`
`14· · ·A.· ·No, I don't believe so.
`
`15· · ·Q.· ·So any books or academic articles you relied on
`
`16 in forming your opinions would have been cited in the
`
`17 declarations?
`
`18· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·Any systems or devices or software that
`
`20 assisted in the formation of your opinions also would
`
`21 have been cited in your declarations?
`
`22· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · ·Q.· ·Were the materials that were cited in your
`
`24 declarations provided by counsel to you?
`
`25· · ·A.· ·Somewhere, somewhat.
`
`Page 10 of 177
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`
`
`·1· · ·Q.· ·Which documents were provided to you by
`
`·2 counsel?
`
`·3· · ·A.· ·I would have to go through each one in my
`
`·4 report and identify whether I recall one way or another.
`
`·5· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·6· · ·A.· ·If you'd like me to do that, I can do that.
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·We'll -- why don't we -- we'll get to it.
`
`·8· · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`·9· · ·Q.· ·We'll just -- as we go through them, I'll just
`
`10 ask the question.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·Do you -- sitting here, though, do you
`
`12 recall any particular item that you identified without
`
`13 the assistance of counsel?
`
`14· · ·A.· ·Sure.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·The spec sheets for the various cell
`
`16 phones that discussed those, I -- I searched for and
`
`17 found and printed out and used those in forming my
`
`18 opinion.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·Now, I've got to make sure -- sometimes
`
`20 I -- there's two IPRs going on -- or four IPRs going on
`
`21 at the same time.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`23· · ·A.· ·So for the other -- I'm trying to -- it would
`
`24 be easier if I could look through my report than do it
`
`25 off the top of my head.
`
`Page 11 of 177
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`
`
`·1· · ·Q.· ·I understand.
`
`·2· · ·A.· ·Because sometimes they get blurred in my head
`
`·3 which ones and what IPR.
`
`·4· · ·Q.· ·Let me ask you this:· Are there any spec sheets
`
`·5 that you reviewed in connection with the 1131 or 1133
`
`·6 that were not identified in --
`
`·7· · ·A.· ·No.
`
`·8· · ·Q.· ·-- the declaration?
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·Okay.· And how are you currently employed?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·Two -- three different ways.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·I am, first of all, the owner of Olivier
`
`12 Consulting.· It's a small consulting company; second, I
`
`13 am a consultant with McAlexander Sound; and third, I
`
`14 teach part-time at SMU as an adjunct professor.
`
`15· · ·Q.· ·And as part of your consulting, you serve as an
`
`16 expert witness in patent-related matters; is that
`
`17 correct?
`
`18· · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·What percentage of time would -- of your
`
`20 employment would you consider to be devoted to your
`
`21 expert witness consultant?
`
`22· · ·A.· ·30 to 40.
`
`23· · ·Q.· ·And what percentage of your employment is
`
`24 devoted to your time as an adjunct professor?
`
`25· · ·A.· ·When I'm teaching, it's about 50 because
`
`Page 12 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 it's -- I'm developing new classes and it takes a lot of
`
`·2 work to develop those new classes.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·How often -- how -- what portion of the year
`
`·4 are you teaching?
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·Half time.· Half a year.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·Like -- is that like a semester?
`
`·7· · ·A.· ·Right, a semester.
`
`·8· · ·Q.· ·So that's like three months out of the year; is
`
`·9 that about right?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·It's a six months' contract, right.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·Why don't we go ahead and put your declarations
`
`12 in front of you.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·So I'm handing you what has been
`
`14 previously marked as IPR2017-01131, Exhibit 2002; and
`
`15 IPR2017-01133, Exhibit 2002.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Please review both of those documents.
`
`17· · ·A.· ·(Witness reviews documents).
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·Can you tell us what those documents appear to
`
`19 be?
`
`20· · ·A.· ·They appear to be in my declaration in the 1131
`
`21 and the 1133 IPR proceedings.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the 1131 involves U.S. Patent Number
`
`23 8,464,304; is that correct?
`
`24· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`25· · ·Q.· ·And if we refer to that as the "'304 Patent,"
`
`Page 13 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 you'll understand what I'm talking about?
`
`·2· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·And then the 1133 IPR involves U.S. Patent
`
`·4 8,601,506; is that correct?
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·And if we refer to that as the "'506 Patent,"
`
`·7 you'll understand what we're talking about?
`
`·8· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · ·Q.· ·Mr. Olivier, do you own a mobile phone?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·What kind is it?
`
`12· · ·A.· ·6s --iPhone 6s.
`
`13· · ·Q.· ·How long have you owned an iPhone?
`
`14· · ·A.· ·Since they came out.· I think I -- I got one of
`
`15 the first ones; the 3, I think it was.
`
`16· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`17· · ·A.· ·Or was it -- I don't remember the exact name,
`
`18 but, yeah, I think I got them as soon as they came out.
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·Have you owned other -- I'm sorry.· Have you
`
`20 owned other mobile phones during the last ten years or
`
`21 so since you've been using iPhones as well?
`
`22· · ·A.· ·Sure, yes.
`
`23· · ·Q.· ·What other mobile phones have you owned?
`
`24· · ·A.· ·Nokia, Samsung.· The last ten years, that's
`
`25 probably the most I can remember.
`
`Page 14 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·Q.· ·Do you recall when you obtained the Nokia?
`
`·2· · ·A.· ·'05-'06 -- '04.· Probably '04.· 2004, 2003.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So prior to you purchasing an iPhone?
`
`·4· · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`·5· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·6· · ·A.· ·I think --
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·Was that -- go ahead.
`
`·8· · ·A.· ·I think Samsung was before that, too.
`
`·9· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was the Samsung your -- the first mobile
`
`10 phone you owned?
`
`11· · ·A.· ·I've owned mobile phones for a long time. I
`
`12 think it was the first one I owned.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Because I was working for Samsung around
`
`14 2000, and we were -- the same building was the Mobile
`
`15 Phone Group, so I think I got a mobile phone from them.
`
`16 And I may have owned one before that honestly.· I just
`
`17 can't remember.
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·And do you remember the models?
`
`19· · ·A.· ·No.
`
`20· · ·Q.· ·What about the Nokia, do you remember the model
`
`21 of the Nokia?
`
`22· · ·A.· ·No.
`
`23· · ·Q.· ·And did -- I assume you are familiar with the
`
`24 mobile apps available to iPhones dating back to the
`
`25 iPhone 3?
`
`Page 15 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·A.· ·Yes.· Yes, I am.
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·Now, did the Nokia device that you had have any
`
`·3 mobile apps associated with it?
`
`·4· · ·A.· ·And by "mobile apps," what do you -- what do
`
`·5 you mean?· It's a very broad term.· I mean, there's some
`
`·6 installed software on the Nokia phone that you -- it has
`
`·7 an icon that looks like an app to some people.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·I don't recall whether you can load apps
`
`·9 like the SIMS -- I mean, the iPhones where you can go
`
`10 to the store and pick what apps you want to put on it
`
`11 and things like that.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·So what do you -- what do you mean by
`
`13 "mobile apps"?
`
`14· · ·Q.· ·Well, that's really my question, I guess, is
`
`15 whether you recall, with the Nokia, being able to choose
`
`16 and install your own application.
`
`17· · ·A.· ·Yeah, that, I don't recall.
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·What about the Samsung?
`
`19· · ·A.· ·That, I don't recall, either.
`
`20· · ·Q.· ·When do you recall having any -- yeah, when was
`
`21 your first experience that you can recall of being able
`
`22 to search for, to select, and install your own
`
`23 application on a mobile phone?
`
`24· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`25· · ·A.· ·The first recollection I have of being able to
`
`Page 16 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 search and install particular applications on your phone
`
`·2 was when I was working at first with the iPhones.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) So within the last ten years;
`
`·4 is that about right?
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·Yes, I believe so.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·In your CV, if you want to turn to it, I'm
`
`·7 looking at the 304, the 1131, Exhibit 2002, and you
`
`·8 identify on page 44 of 47 --
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·-- "Technology related to mobile camera
`
`12 systems, software systems, architecture..."
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`14· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · ·Q.· ·With what investigation was that pertaining to?
`
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`17 Foundation.
`
`18· · ·A.· ·With what investigation?
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) Yeah.· The bullet, it's
`
`20 under -- it says "Lead technology research and
`
`21 intellectual property investigation in the following
`
`22 areas," and then you have this bullet:· "Technology
`
`23 related to mobile camera systems, software systems,
`
`24 architecture, HTC."
`
`25· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`Page 17 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·Did that relate to some particular intellectual
`
`·3 property investigation that you were working on?
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·It may have.· I don't recall one way or
`
`·6 another.
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) And if we go back to page 43,
`
`·8 the last three bullets, do you see those:· "Cell Phone
`
`·9 Hardware and Software for Imaging, Investigation
`
`10 337-TA-726, 2010"; and then the next one, "Operating
`
`11 Systems for Mobile Devices, Investigation 337-TA-724,
`
`12 2011"; and "Mobile Devices Hardware and Software
`
`13 Architectures, Investigation 337-TA-850, 2012"?
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Do you see those bullets?
`
`15· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · ·Q.· ·So let's just look at the 2010 bullet.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·So what was the subject matter of that
`
`18 investigation identified, 337-TA-726?
`
`19· · ·A.· ·It had to do with the hardware and software for
`
`20 capturing images in cell phones.
`
`21· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who was your client on that one?
`
`22· · ·A.· ·It was HTC.
`
`23· · ·Q.· ·And what was your role in that investigation?
`
`24· · ·A.· ·I was the expert who analyzed the software and
`
`25 provided an expert report and testimony at the ITC
`
`Page 18 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 hearing.
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·And what was the subject matter of your
`
`·3 testimony?
`
`·4· · ·A.· ·The testimony had to do with the hardware and
`
`·5 software, the image capturing, on the HTC phone.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·So, like, how the HTC phone operated?· Is that
`
`·7 what you were testifying about?
`
`·8· · ·A.· ·Aspects of how the HTC phone operated and how
`
`·9 it was capturing images and -- and storing them.
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·And that was in the 2010 time frame; is that
`
`11 right?
`
`12· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · ·Q.· ·Prior to the 2010 time frame, had you consulted
`
`14 on technology involving video capture on cell phones
`
`15 before that?
`
`16· · ·A.· ·Had I consulted...· Hmm.· I don't recall as I
`
`17 sit here.· I -- I was familiar with how the systems work
`
`18 based on my experience, which is why I was as --
`
`19 recognized as an expert in this area.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·So had I consulted in particular on
`
`21 particular phones?· Probably not.· I just had a general
`
`22 understanding on how the hardware and software in the
`
`23 capturing worked on cell phones.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·And how did you obtain that general
`
`25 understanding of capturing video on cell phones?
`
`Page 19 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·A.· ·With my experience over the years in dealing
`
`·2 with cell phones, with dealing with cellular networks,
`
`·3 over the 20-25 years I've been doing it.
`
`·4· · ·Q.· ·And with respect to your dealing with cell
`
`·5 phones, did that involve personal use or professional
`
`·6 use?
`
`·7· · ·A.· ·Well --
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·9· · ·A.· ·-- both.
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) What kind of professional use
`
`11 did you have dealing with cell phones prior to --
`
`12· · ·A.· ·When I worked at Samsung, I was -- I was
`
`13 responsible for the service layer inside the UMTS switch
`
`14 which interacted very strongly with the cell phones.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·In other words, you couldn't provide a
`
`16 service in the switch if you didn't have a corresponding
`
`17 service on the cell phone, and, luckily, within the same
`
`18 building were the people who were working on the Samsung
`
`19 cell phones at the particular time.· So that was how I
`
`20 started my -- gaining my professional knowledge about
`
`21 how cell phones capture and record imaging information.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·What does -- what does your -- the UMTS
`
`23 switching have to do with the video-capture
`
`24 functionality?
`
`25· · ·A.· ·So you have to understand what kind of -- we
`
`Page 20 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 were providing a whole bunch of different services, like
`
`·2 maybe we -- one of the services we were providing was
`
`·3 sending emails with attachments into the switch, because
`
`·4 the UMTS had a service-creation layer above the typical
`
`·5 call-processing layer, and that was the -- part of the
`
`·6 switch I was responsible for.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·So we -- we had to understand what to
`
`·8 expect from the cell phones or what the cell phones were
`
`·9 capable of in order to understand how to scale and
`
`10 architect our side of the system.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·We were planning a whole bunch of
`
`12 different features at the time because this was supposed
`
`13 to be the next latest and greatest switch, and it was a
`
`14 goal at that particular time for the switch
`
`15 manufacturers to try to capture some of the higher-end
`
`16 business, to not just be a dumb pipe sending the
`
`17 packets, because we were actually -- that was actually
`
`18 when we were first converting over to packets, and not
`
`19 just send void packets through the network.
`
`20· · ·Q.· ·And did the features of those phones that you
`
`21 were working on at Samsung include video recording?
`
`22· · ·A.· ·I remember we were working with MIME, and MIME
`
`23 was a -- is an IETF standard.· And I think MIME does
`
`24 discuss video, but we weren't highly concerned with the
`
`25 video.· We were more concerned with the images at the
`
`Page 21 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 time.· But there's not a huge difference between the
`
`·2 two.
`
`·3· · ·Q.· ·And can you -- so -- and that work was between
`
`·4 1996 and 1999; is that right?
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·Can you -- is there any other -- well, it looks
`
`·7 like, after you left Samsung, you went to Marconi; is
`
`·8 that correct?
`
`·9· · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·And did you work with video capture on cell
`
`11 phones when you were at Marconi?
`
`12· · ·A.· ·No.
`
`13· · ·Q.· ·And then after you left Marconi, it looks like
`
`14 you went to Navini?· Is that right?
`
`15· · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`16· · ·Q.· ·And did you look on video capture with mobile
`
`17 phones while at Navini?
`
`18· · ·A.· ·Not video capture, but video transport.
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`20· · ·A.· ·The networking of the video.
`
`21· · ·Q.· ·And then you started your consulting business
`
`22 in 2003; is that right?
`
`23· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·And so prior to your HTC investigation that we
`
`25 talked about before, were there any other professional
`
`Page 22 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 engagements involving video capture on mobile phones
`
`·2 identified in your CV?
`
`·3· · ·A.· ·There is no other identified in my CV.
`
`·4· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·5· · ·A.· ·Like I said, I was working in the area and,
`
`·6 therefore, had knowledge of how the particular
`
`·7 technologies were used at the particular time, which is
`
`·8 why I was retained as an expert in that case.· But
`
`·9 there's nothing else identified in my CV.
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·What about video publishing, do you have any
`
`11 professional experience dealing with video publishing?
`
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`13 Foundation.
`
`14· · ·A.· ·So by "video publishing," you mean putting it
`
`15 up on the Internet or...
`
`16· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) Well, take a look at paragraph
`
`17 36 of your Exhibit 2002 for the 1131 IPR.
`
`18· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · ·Q.· ·And it states that "The relevant art for the
`
`20 '304 Patent is the video recording and publishing across
`
`21 the communication network."
`
`22· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`23· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·And so what did you mean by video recording and
`
`25 publishing?
`
`Page 23 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·A.· ·I meant to --
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·3· · ·A.· ·I meant the recording and storing of the video
`
`·4 in server architectures and then being able to download
`
`·5 those videos to particular phones, to particular
`
`·6 clients, things of that nature.
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) Do you recall if your Nokia
`
`·8 phone that you had before you had the iPhone had a
`
`·9 videocamera?
`
`10· · ·A.· ·No, I do not, not sitting here.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·Do you recall if your first iPhone had a
`
`12 videocamera?
`
`13· · ·A.· ·I don't even really recall that sitting here.
`
`14 I'd have to go back and look at the first models and see
`
`15 if they had it or not.
`
`16· · ·Q.· ·Does your iPhone 6 have a videocamera?
`
`17· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When was the first time you recall
`
`19 possessing a mobile phone that had a videocamera?
`
`20· · ·A.· ·I think it was an iPhone.· What year it was,
`
`21 I don't -- I don't remember.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·Have you ever developed a mobile app for a
`
`23 mobile phone?
`
`24· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`25· · ·A.· ·I've looked into the programming of how you
`
`Page 24 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 develop a mobile app.· I don't think I've ever actually
`
`·2 finished going through the whole process of taking the
`
`·3 app and taking it to the store.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·But I've looked into the -- the systems,
`
`·5 the software, and things like that so that I would have
`
`·6 an understanding of how they worked over the years.
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) So what did the -- was the
`
`·8 iPhone one of the phones that you investigated with --
`
`·9· · ·A.· ·It was both the iPhone and the Android.
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`11· · ·A.· ·They both have a software-developing
`
`12 environment that allows you to develop apps, and I
`
`13 recall investigating those over the years.
`
`14· · ·Q.· ·And what is the software-development
`
`15 environment of each of those comprised of?
`
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`17· · ·A.· ·There is an online -- you download a
`
`18 software-development kit from either Apple or Google
`
`19 that allows you to develop applications, test
`
`20 applications, in an emulator on your computer in order
`
`21 to see the -- the main point of those is to -- to see
`
`22 how your -- they're targeted towards developing the
`
`23 graphical user interface.· But you'd actually develop an
`
`24 app on these.· I think it's called iCode on the Apple
`
`25 device.· And I don't recall what it is in the Android
`
`Page 25 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 device.
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) And when was the first time
`
`·3 that you looked at one of those SDKs that you recall?
`
`·4· · ·A.· ·So it would be in this investigation for
`
`·5 operating systems in mobile devices in 2011.· So the
`
`·6 2010-2011 time frame.
`
`·7· · ·Q.· ·Had you heard of software-development kits
`
`·8 prior to 2010?
`
`·9· · ·A.· ·Oh, yes.
`
`10· · ·Q.· ·In what capacity?
`
`11· · ·A.· ·In my capacity as the system architect for new
`
`12 systems being developed by Marconi, we would oftentime
`
`13 get -- or I would specify which chips we were going to
`
`14 use in the particular products, and the chips would come
`
`15 with a software-development kit associated with them so
`
`16 you could write to the chip and perform different
`
`17 functionality.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·So I had to investigate out of all the
`
`19 different telecommunication chips, which ones we were
`
`20 going to incorporate into our particular product, and
`
`21 then explain -- write documents to explain to the
`
`22 software developers how they were going to interface
`
`23 using that SDK in order to perform the functionality
`
`24 that Marconi wanted the particular product to do.
`
`25· · ·Q.· ·Any other experience with SDKs?
`
`Page 26 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·A.· ·That's the first one I recall.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·Then there was -- there was definitely an
`
`·3 SDK at Navini Networks because, again, we were working
`
`·4 with a particular chip, especially on the CDMA modem
`
`·5 there, and I had to interface to that.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·I had -- I wasn't a system architect at
`
`·7 that, so I actually had to go down and write the code
`
`·8 for interfacing to the particular chip on the cellular
`
`·9 modem there.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·So that's another example of where I
`
`11 worked with SDKs.
`
`12· · ·Q.· ·Any other examples of working with SDKs?
`
`13· · ·A.· ·I mean, since that time, since 2011, I've also
`
`14 worked with SDKs and, like I said, in learning to
`
`15 develop how apps are developed in the present-day
`
`16 systems.· Let's see...
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Oh, then, in -- in working in the -- being
`
`18 a system architect in the Telstrat products, there was a
`
`19 number of different chip-based SDKs that we had to -- I
`
`20 had to understand and specify how to work with for the
`
`21 development of their access products.
`
`22· · ·Q.· ·And where are you looking at in your CV?
`
`23· · ·A.· ·I'm looking on page 44, the --
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I see it.
`
`25· · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`Page 27 of 177
`
`
`
`·1· · ·Q.· ·Telstrat.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·And what was the time frame of that, did
`
`·3 you say?
`
`·4· · ·A.· ·I wish I would have put an arrow.· I'm thinking
`
`·5 '06, '07, 2006 or '07.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·And you mentioned, in 2010-2011, looking at the
`
`·7 Apple and Android operating systems for mobile phones,
`
`·8 correct?
`
`·9· · ·A.· ·Well, they're a software-development
`
`10 environment for their operating systems, yes.
`
`11· · ·Q.· ·Right.· And -- and they're operating systems
`
`12 for mobile phones in particular?
`
`13· · ·A.· ·Correct.· They're Android and the iPhone.
`
`14· · ·Q.· ·Right.· And are there -- are you familiar with
`
`15 other operating systems for mobile phones that predated
`
`16 2010, let's say?
`
`17· · ·A.· ·I mean, in a general sense, not in a specific
`
`18 sense.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·I had a little bit of familiarity on a
`
`20 personal level based -- based on the Nokia ones because
`
`21 one of my friends worked for the Nokia there in
`
`22 Los Colinas in Dallas who worked on their SD -- on their
`
`23 Symbian system, their operating system for Nokia.
`
`24· · ·Q.· ·What was the word you used?
`
`25· · ·A.· ·I forgot what it was called at the time.· It
`
`Page 28 of 177
`
`
`
`·1 began with an "S."
`
`·2· · ·Q.· ·I think you said "Symbian"?
`
`·3· · ·A.· ·Symbian?· I don't -- I don't recall.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·But that was just on a personal level
`
`·5 talking to him as -- as a friend.
`
`·6· · ·Q.· ·And that would have been before -- that would
`
`·7 have been in the 2004 time frame?· Is that...
`
`·8· · ·A.· ·Could have been.· I don't actually recall.
`
`·9· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the question -- my question was
`
`10 about mobile operating systems before 2010.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·You may have had an iPhone before 2010;
`
`12 is that right?
`
`13· · · · · · · ·MR. ROBINSON:· Objection.· Form.
`
`14· · ·A.· ·Yes, I believe so.
`
`15· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. SIEGEL) And that would
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