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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`KAWASAKI RAIL CAR, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` Case IPR2017-01036
`v.
`SCOTT BLAIR,
` Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
`Video-recorded Deposition Upon Oral Examination of:
` JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN
`
`Location: Meredith & Keyhani
` 205 Main Street
` East Aurora, New York 14052
`
`Date: April 13, 2018
`
`Time: 9:22 a.m.
`
`Reported By: MICHELLE MUNDT ROCHA
`
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`212-279-9424
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`KAWASAKI-1038
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`Page 4
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 administer the oath, nor am I related to any party in
`3 this action, nor am I financially interested in the
`4 outcome.
`5 Counsel are present in the room, and
`6 everyone attending will now place their appearances
`7 and affiliations for the record. If there are any
`8 objections to the proceeding, please state them at the
`9 time of your appearance.
`10 MR. BILLAH: Zaed Billah from Hunton,
`11 Andrews, Kurth representing Petitioner, Kawasaki
`12 Railcar, Inc.
`13 MS. MEREDITH: Jennifer Meredith,
`14 Meredith & Keyhani, representing the Patent Owner,
`15 Scott Blair.
`16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please swear in our
`17 witness.
`18 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN,
`19 called herein as a witness, first being sworn,
`20 testified as follows:
`21 EXAMINATION BY MR. BILLAH:
`22 Q. Can you please state your name and
`23 residential address for the record?
`24 A. Joseph B. Zicherman. 2390 Eunice Street,
`25 Berkeley, California.
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`Page 5
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. Who is your current employer?
`3 A. Berkeley Engineering and Research.
`4 Q. And what city is that located in?
`5 A. Berkeley, California.
`6 Q. And what is your current title?
`7 A. Senior fire safety consultant.
`8 Q. And how long have you had that title?
`9 A. I've worked with Berkeley Engineering and
`10 Research for about two years now.
`11 Q. And at your time at Berkeley Engineering
`12 and Research your title has always remained the same?
`13 A. Yes.
`14 Q. Dr. Zicherman, you were deposed a few
`15 weeks ago, so I'm sure you're familiar with the
`16 process, but I'll just go over a few ground rules.
`17 Most important thing we'll try to do is
`18 not talk over each other. It's very difficult for the
`19 court reporter to transcribe two people at once.
`20 I also ask that you try to answer in words
`21 rather than a shrug of the shoulders or head nods,
`22 that kind of thing.
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. Your counsel, Ms. Meredith here, may
`25 object to some of the questions; but unless she
`
`Page 2
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`2 Appearing on Behalf of Petitioner:
`3 Zaed M. Billah, Esq.
`4 Hunton Andrews Kurth LLP
`5 One Broadway
`6 New York, New York 10004
`7 zbillah@HuntonAK.com
`
`89
`
`Appearing on Behalf of Patent Owner:
`10 Jennifer Meredith, Esq.
`11 Meredith & Keyhani
`12 205 Main Street
`13 East Aurora, New York 14052
`14 jmeredith@meredithkeyhani.com
`15
`16 Appearing as the Videographer:
`17 Ken Williamson
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 3
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`1 P R O C E E D I N G S
`2 FRIDAY, APRIL 13, 2018;
`3 (Proceedings in the above-titled matter
`4 commencing at 9:22 a.m.)
`5 * * *
`6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record.
`7 The time is approximately 9:22 a.m. Today is Friday,
`8 April 13, 2018.
`9 Please note that the microphones are
`10 sensitive and may pick up whispering, private
`11 conversations and cellular interference. Please turn
`12 off your cell phones. Audio and video recording will
`13 continue to take place unless all parties agree to go
`14 off the record.
`15 This is media unit one of the
`16 video-recorded deposition of Joseph B. Zicherman,
`17 taken by the counsel for the petitioner in the matter
`18 of Kawasaki Railcar, Inc., Petitioner versus Scott
`19 Blair, Patent Owner. The case is filed in the United
`20 States Patent and Trademark Office before the Patent
`21 Trial and Appeal Board, IPR2017-01036. The deposition
`22 is being held at 205 East Main Street, East Aurora,
`23 New York.
`24 I am Ken Williamson, the videographer for
`25 Veritext. I am not administered -- or authorized to
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`Page 6
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 specifically instructs you not to answer a question,
`3 you still need to answer the question. Do you
`4 understand that?
`5 A. Yes.
`6 Q. If you need a break -- we'll take breaks
`7 throughout the day, but if you need a break at any
`8 time, feel free to ask for one, and we'll take one. I
`9 just ask that if there's a question pending, that you
`10 answer the question first, and then we can take a
`11 break.
`12 Is there any reason you cannot testify
`13 truthfully today?
`14 A. No.
`15 Q. Are you on any medication that would
`16 affect your ability to answer questions?
`17 A. No.
`18 Q. How did you prepare for today's
`19 deposition?
`20 A. I reviewed my declaration, I reviewed my
`21 deposition of February 28th, and I reviewed some of
`22 the relevant documents in the case in my file.
`23 Q. And what documents were those?
`24 A. Those were the patents cited as
`25 references.
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`Page 8
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 deposition?
`3 A. Yesterday evening probably an hour.
`4 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Long in preparation
`5 for today's deposition?
`6 A. No.
`7 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Long?
`8 A. No.
`9 Q. Have you ever had any communications with
`10 Mr. Long?
`11 A. No.
`12 Q. Is there anybody else you spoke to to
`13 prepare for this deposition?
`14 A. No.
`15 (The following exhibits were marked for
`16 identification: EXH Numbers 1, 2 and 3.)
`17 MR. BILLAH: For the record, Exhibit 1 is
`18 a copy of United States Patent Number 6,700,602, also
`19 marked as Kawasaki 1001.
`20 Exhibit 2 is the Supplemental Expert
`21 Declaration of Jack R. Long, also marked as Exhibit
`22 2006 in IPR2017-01306.
`23 Exhibit 3 is the Supplemental Expert
`24 Declaration of Joseph B. Zicherman, also marked as
`25 Exhibit 2009 in IPR2017-01036.
`
`Page 7
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. Do you remember the names?
`3 A. I don't. I can give you the names.
`4 Q. Based on what you have in front of you?
`5 A. Based on my supplemental declaration.
`6 Q. What documents do you have in front of
`7 you?
`8 A. I have my deposition of February 28th and
`9 my supplemental declaration.
`10 Q. And in any of the papers you have with you
`11 today, are there any notations on those documents?
`12 A. No.
`13 Q. Can I look at that, please?
`14 A. Sure.
`15 Q. Did you speak to your counsel in
`16 preparation for this deposition?
`17 A. I did.
`18 Q. And when was that?
`19 A. I spoke with Ms. Meredith on Wednesday in
`20 a phone conversation, and I met with she and her
`21 partner last evening.
`22 Q. And her partner being Mr. Keyhani?
`23 A. Correct.
`24 Q. Approximately how much time did you spend
`25 speaking with Ms. Meredith and Mr. Keyhani for this
`
`Page 9
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. Dr. Zicherman, could you please look at
`3 Exhibit 2, please? What is this document?
`4 A. This is -- Exhibit 2 is a Supplemental
`5 Expert Declaration of Jack R. Long.
`6 Q. Have you ever seen this document?
`7 A. I have.
`8 Q. When is the last time you've seen this
`9 document?
`10 A. I saw this document roughly a week ago for
`11 the first time.
`12 Q. And is there a particular reason you
`13 reviewed this document a week ago?
`14 A. I was provided with this document by my
`15 clients, and they asked me to review it.
`16 Q. And is it correct that you reviewed
`17 Exhibit 2 in preparation to draft your own
`18 declaration, which is Exhibit 3?
`19 A. Yes.
`20 Q. And looking at Exhibit 3 side by side with
`21 Exhibit 2, what is the relationship between Exhibit 2
`22 and Exhibit 3?
`23 A. Exhibit -- I'm sorry. Did I cut you off?
`24 Q. No.
`25 A. Exhibit 3 is a copy of my own declaration,
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`Page 10
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 which was prepared after reviewing Mr. Long's
`3 deposition. And as I understand it, the circumstances
`4 are that Mr. Long has been quite ill and unable to
`5 participate.
`6 And in as much as I testified in my last
`7 deposition in detail about design issues, I was asked
`8 to look at Mr. Long's opinions and see if they were
`9 consistent with my own; and indeed they were, by and
`10 large.
`11 Q. And when you say "by and large," what
`12 about Mr. Long's opinions and your opinions is not
`13 consistent?
`14 A. Well, he has some information about how
`15 subways are tunneled and so on, which I didn't feel
`16 were particularly relevant to a declaration with my
`17 signature.
`18 Q. And can you point out the sections you're
`19 referring to in Mr. Long's declaration?
`20 A. In Long they are sections 8 and 9.
`21 Q. And I just want to seek a clarification in
`22 your testimony. You said (as read): Exhibit 3 is a
`23 copy of my own declaration, which was prepared after
`24 reviewing Mr. Long's deposition.
`25 When you said "Mr. Long's deposition," did
`
`Page 12
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. The problem refers to the installation of
`3 information monitors in a subway car.
`4 Q. And what are the problems with the
`5 installation of information monitors in a subway car?
`6 A. At the time that this patent was written,
`7 monitors were of larger size, they were electrically
`8 powered and created a potential fire hazard. They
`9 prevent -- excuse me. They presented a potential
`10 source of injury to passengers if they projected out
`11 into a railcar. Those were the primary problems.
`12 And another problem which had not been
`13 addressed was the simple and -- actually, not simple,
`14 but the problem of mounting the monitor itself within
`15 the confines or the -- of the actual car shell.
`16 Q. And your testimony says that the problem
`17 posed to the inventor. So was the fire hazard problem
`18 posed to the inventor?
`19 A. That was an engineering problem that the
`20 inventor would have to deal with, yes.
`21 Q. How was it posed to the inventor?
`22 A. How was it posed to the inventor? Can you
`23 clarify that?
`24 Q. Did a person pose that problem to the
`25 inventor?
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`Page 11
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 you mean declaration?
`3 A. I did. I misspoke.
`4 Q. Did you ever review Mr. Long's deposition?
`5 A. No.
`6 Q. The removal of sections 8 and 9 in making
`7 your declaration in comparison to Mr. Long's
`8 declaration, did that have anything to do with your
`9 lack of expertise in any particular area?
`10 A. No.
`11 Q. Can you please turn to paragraph 14 in
`12 your declaration, Exhibit 3?
`13 A. Paragraph 14, page 4?
`14 Q. Correct.
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. The second sentence of paragraph 14 says
`17 (as read): The problem posed to the inventor at the
`18 time of the invention was particularly challenging, as
`19 subway cars have challenges that do not exist in
`20 residential environments or even buses or Amtrak
`21 trains.
`22 Do you see that?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. The word "problem," the second word in the
`25 sentence there, what problem -- what is the problem?
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`Page 13
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. Well, there was a regulatory issue, and
`3 there was an overarching issue of fire safety. And
`4 these are electrical devices, and they have a
`5 potential to fail. And if they were to fail and
`6 initiate a fire, smoke and heat and toxic gas and
`7 particulates would put subway riders at risk.
`8 Q. And what regulatory body are you referring
`9 to?
`10 A. Well, the regulatory body in question was
`11 actually the Federal Transit Agency, but the Federal
`12 Transit Agency basically defaulted to the activities
`13 of the Federal Railway Administration, who had
`14 prepared a series of fire safety guidelines that are
`15 codified in CFR-238.
`16 Q. How do you know what the inventor was
`17 considering at the time of his invention for this
`18 patent?
`19 A. How do I know? I guess I can't -- it
`20 seems obscure.
`21 Q. You're saying the problem was posed to the
`22 inventor. There's nothing in the patent about fire
`23 hazards, is there?
`24 A. There's nothing per se.
`25 Q. So how do you know the inventor had any
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`Page 14
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 considerations for fire hazards?
`3 A. Because the inventor either knew or should
`4 have known that there were fire hazards or that
`5 there's a risk of fire on a rail vehicle. And if a
`6 rail vehicle operates underground, the hazard
`7 resulting from that risk is greater than if it's
`8 operating above ground.
`9 Q. Now, you don't know what the inventor
`10 knew; is that correct?
`11 MS. MEREDITH: Objection.
`12 A. Yeah, I don't know what the inventor knew.
`13 Q. Is there anything in this patent that
`14 discusses injury to passengers, the patent being
`15 Exhibit 1?
`16 A. Give me a minute to review it?
`17 Q. Yes.
`18 MS. MEREDITH: Objection. The document
`19 speaks for itself.
`20 A. I'm not sure that safety or fire are
`21 discussed in the patent.
`22 Q. When you say, "I'm not sure," does that
`23 mean you haven't read the whole patent?
`24 A. I haven't focused on whether or not that
`25 was in the patent in my readings of the patent.
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`Page 16
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 at places containing insulation.
`3 Do you see that?
`4 A. Yes.
`5 Q. My question to you is in the 1995 to 1997
`6 time frame a subway car was normally constructed such
`7 that it had a cavity in between its interior wall and
`8 its exterior shell; correct?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. Do any subway systems of today not have
`11 that cavity space?
`12 A. I can't speak for all such vehicles. Most
`13 do have such a space.
`14 Q. And have you ever seen a subway car
`15 without such a space?
`16 A. Probably the older London underground cars
`17 do not have such a space.
`18 Q. And when you say, "London underground
`19 cars," does that mean that those cars operate in
`20 London, England?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. And in what time frame are you referring
`23 to with those London underground cars?
`24 A. Operating or being built?
`25 Q. Let's start with being built.
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`Page 15
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. Can you -- if you're not sure, what would
`3 make you sure?
`4 A. Taking longer and looking at it some more.
`5 Q. I would like an answer to my question,
`6 sir. Is there anything in the patent that discusses
`7 injury to passengers?
`8 A. Okay.
`9 MS. MEREDITH: Objection again.
`10 (There was a pause in the proceeding.)
`11 A. I don't believe it discusses fire or fire
`12 danger.
`13 Q. Or injury to passengers; correct?
`14 A. Or injury to passengers, with the
`15 exception that it talks about the monitors being
`16 strongly mounted, which would at least acknowledge
`17 that they need to be strongly mounted.
`18 Q. Can you please take a look at the patent,
`19 '602 patent, column 3?
`20 A. Okay.
`21 Q. Column 3, line 55, it reads (as read): A
`22 subway car is normally constructed so that it has a
`23 cavity wall defined between its outer structural shell
`24 and an inner lining wall; the cavity providing for
`25 wiring and cables and other mechanical functions and
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`Page 17
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. Well, they're still operating, and they
`3 probably -- they may well be current cars as well,
`4 because those cars have a construction with a highly
`5 curved roof to fit the very old tunnels that they run
`6 in.
`7 Q. Can you turn to column 4 of the patent,
`8 please?
`9 A. Yeah.
`10 Q. Line -- down at line 57 of column 4 it
`11 starts by saying (as read): A typical subway car 10,
`12 as illustrated in Figures 1A and 1B.
`13 Do you see that?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. If you look at Figure 1A --
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. -- my question is do you agree that figure
`18 1A depicts a typical subway car in the 1995 to 1997
`19 time frame?
`20 A. Well, 1A would certainly represent a plan
`21 view of a typical car, or could.
`22 Q. And can you turn to column 5?
`23 A. Pardon? 5?
`24 Q. Column 5, yes, sir.
`25 A. Sure. I've got it.
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`Page 18
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. At column 5, line 8, it starts out (as
`3 read): Figure 3 shows a detail of the car 10.
`4 Do you see that?
`5 A. Okay.
`6 Q. So let's look at Figure 3.
`7 A. Okay.
`8 Q. Do you agree that Figure 3 depicts a
`9 portion of a typical subway car in the 1995 to 1997
`10 time frame?
`11 A. Yes, it could.
`12 Q. Can you turn to column 5 again. Column 5,
`13 line 8, starts out (as read): Figure 3 shows a detail
`14 of the car 10.
`15 What I just read. Do you see that?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. Could you please read to yourself the
`18 entirety of that paragraph, ending at line 20?
`19 A. Okay.
`20 Q. Looking at Figure 3, what is item 36?
`21 A. Item 36 is the wall of a longitudinal HVAC
`22 vent that runs the length of the car.
`23 Q. And the --
`24 A. In this exemplar drawing.
`25 Q. And the patent refers to item 36 as a main
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`Page 20
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. Could well be.
`3 Q. When you say, "could well be," you mean
`4 you believe it would be?
`5 A. It would be typical or part of a typical
`6 design.
`7 Q. Thank you.
`8 Looking back at Figure 3, what is item 40?
`9 A. Item 40 is a backlit structure -- let's
`10 see what they call it here -- which contains
`11 advertising panels.
`12 Q. The patent refers to item 40 as backlit
`13 advertising panel; is that correct?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. Were backlit advertising panels present in
`16 a typical subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`17 A. I would think so.
`18 Q. Looking back at Figure 3, what is item 28?
`19 A. 28 is referred to as an outer shell, so
`20 that's part of a car shell.
`21 Q. Was an outer shell present in the typical
`22 subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. Looking back at Figure 3, what is item 30?
`25 A. Item 30 are structural pillars mounted at
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`Page 19
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 air duct; is that correct?
`3 A. Yes.
`4 Q. Was a main air duct present in a typical
`5 subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`6 A. Was -- what is?
`7 Q. Sorry. Let me state my question again.
`8 Was a main air duct present in a typical subway car in
`9 the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`10 A. I would think so.
`11 Q. Looking back at Figure 3, what is item 34?
`12 A. 34 is -- I believe it's the outer car
`13 shell. Let me see how he references. Yeah, body
`14 secured to the exterior skin and body structure of the
`15 car. The skin, the outer structure, is typically
`16 known as the car shell.
`17 Q. Was the car shell -- strike that.
`18 Was a car shell present in a typical
`19 subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. Looking back at Figure 3, what is item 38?
`22 A. 38 is a housing for ceiling lighting.
`23 Q. Was a housing for ceiling lighting present
`24 in a typical subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time
`25 frame?
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`Page 21
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 intervals and secured to the vertical structural
`3 member.
`4 Q. Were these structural pillars present in a
`5 typical subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`6 A. Yes.
`7 Q. Looking back at Figure 3, what is item 32?
`8 A. 32 is a pillar which underpins item 30.
`9 Q. Were those pillars present in the typical
`10 subway car in the 1995 to 1997 time frame?
`11 A. Yes, they could have been.
`12 Q. And when you say, "they could have been,"
`13 you believe they were?
`14 A. Well, this is -- it's a typical design.
`15 There were cars that were made with aluminum car
`16 shells that were different necessarily than some
`17 stainless steel car shells and so on. So I'm not --
`18 what I'm saying is these are not atypical.
`19 Q. Thank you.
`20 A. Are we done with page 10?
`21 Q. We are done with that portion.
`22 A. I'm grasping. Okay.
`23 Q. Turn back to your declaration for a
`24 moment, Exhibit 3.
`25 A. Okay.
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`Page 22
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. Looking at paragraph 6 on page 2.
`3 A. Okay.
`4 Q. The second sentence of paragraph 6 you say
`5 (as read): According to certain embodiments, the
`6 video monitor system includes an enclosure for the
`7 video monitor that is designed to be mounted at the
`8 junction of the sidewall and ceiling in such a manner
`9 that the screen of the video display monitor or
`10 enclosure or transparent cover unit for the video
`11 display monitor is substantially flush or
`12 substantially contiguous or flush with the adjacent
`13 surface structure of the wall and oriented obliquely
`14 downward towards the subway's car seats.
`15 Do you see that?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. In that sentence you use the terms
`18 "substantially" -- strike that.
`19 You do use the term "substantially flush";
`20 correct?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. You also use the term "flush"; correct?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. Can you turn back to the patent, '602
`25 patent, at column 5, please.
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`Page 24
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. It says (as read): Accordingly, it -- and my
`3 reading is "it" refers to the monitor -- can be moved
`4 towards the ceiling so that its viewing screen is
`5 substantially flush with or even behind the light
`6 panel 40.
`7 A. Right.
`8 Q. So in Figure 4A my question to you is is
`9 the monitor substantially flush with the light panel,
`10 or is it behind the light panel in Figure 4A?
`11 A. In Figure 4A I would say that it is behind
`12 the backlit panel or the panel -- the panel face and
`13 contiguous with it.
`14 Q. I'm sorry. I'm not sure I follow that.
`15 The light panel in Figure 4A is item 40; correct?
`16 A. Is item 40; correct.
`17 Q. And the monitor is item 22A; correct?
`18 A. Correct.
`19 Q. So are you saying that the monitor is both
`20 contiguous with the light panel and behind it? I'm
`21 not sure I understand what your testimony was.
`22 A. Well, as I understand it, the monitor now
`23 replaces item 40, which is dotted lines, so that if
`24 I'm standing in the car, I'm looking up at the face of
`25 the monitor, or the display portion of the monitor,
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`Page 23
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. Did you say column 5?
`3 Q. Yes. And at column 5, line 40.
`4 A. Okay.
`5 Q. There's a sentence at line 40 of the
`6 patent that says (as read): Accordingly, it can be
`7 moved towards the ceiling so that its viewing screen
`8 is substantially flush with or even behind the light
`9 panel 40.
`10 Do you see that?
`11 A. Yes.
`12 Q. So if we turn to the figure that that
`13 sentence is referring to, turn to Figure 4A, please.
`14 A. You said 4A?
`15 Q. Yes.
`16 A. Okay. Got it.
`17 Q. In Figure 4A is the monitor substantially
`18 flush with the light panel, or is it behind the light
`19 panel?
`20 A. The -- let's get our terminology right.
`21 We're in 4A.
`22 Q. Let me take a step back. Back at the --
`23 let's look at the column 5 again.
`24 A. Yeah.
`25 Q. Column 5, line 40, is referring to Figure
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 which is 22A. And 22A is then integrated with the
`3 next backlit panel in line or on both sides of the
`4 monitor installation, which provides for the
`5 substantially flush or flush description.
`6 Q. Okay. So going back, let me see if I can
`7 understand your testimony -- your opinion here.
`8 A. Sure.
`9 Q. Back at column 5, line 40.
`10 A. I got to separate these guys. Okay. Back
`11 at column 5, line 40. Okay, got it. Okay.
`12 Q. Looking back at that sentence at column 5,
`13 line 40, my reading of it -- and let me know if you
`14 agree -- is that --
`15 MS. MEREDITH: Objection.
`16 Q. Is that this sentence is saying the
`17 monitor can either be, A, substantially flush with the
`18 light panel 40 or, B, behind the light panel 40.
`19 MS. MEREDITH: Objection.
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. So is Figure 4A showing one of those
`22 situations, neither of those situations or both of
`23 those situations?
`24 MS. MEREDITH: Objection.
`25 A. I believe that Figure 4A is showing a
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 combination of those in the sense that if it is behind
`3 the panel, then the dotted lines representing the
`4 panel itself remain in place, and that might act as a
`5 transparent cover.
`6 Conversely, if we're replacing the backlit
`7 panels, we get a situation like we see in Figure 4,
`8 where the monitor is simply replacing it.
`9 That is, it's not explicit here as to
`10 whether this is meant to illustrate a cross-section
`11 view of a car where we've now taken item 40 out and
`12 replaced it with the monitor, in which case we would
`13 have the description found in the patent where it
`14 says, "or even behind the light panel." Because the
`15 way I interpret that, that means that it's behind the
`16 plane of the light panel.
`17 Q. And when you say "plane of the light
`18 panel," you're referring to a portion of the dotted
`19 line?
`20 A. Correct.
`21 Q. And which portion are you referring to?
`22 A. The front portion.
`23 Q. The front portion being the portion that
`24 is closest to the bottom right corner of the page?
`25 A. Yes.
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 A. Column 6, line 30. Okay.
`3 Q. So the term that you used in your
`4 declaration, "substantially flush," do you see that
`5 term as it appears here in the claim? It's at line
`6 39?
`7 A. Right.
`8 Q. And it says (as read): Substantially
`9 flush with the adjacent wall surface structure of the
`10 car.
`11 Do you see that?
`12 A. Correct.
`13 Q. Is that limitation or that concept of the
`14 monitor being substantially flush with the adjacent
`15 wall surface structure of the car, is that depicted
`16 anywhere in this patent?
`17 MS. MEREDITH: Again, I'm going to object
`18 as to being directed outside the scope of this IPR.
`19 A. I don't know that -- do we have that in
`20 the declaration?
`21 Q. What I'm trying to do is ascertain in
`22 paragraph 7 -- sorry -- yes. In paragraph 6 of your
`23 declaration you use the terms "substantially flush,"
`24 "substantially contiguous" and "flush"; correct?
`25 A. Yes.
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. The curved portion?
`3 A. It's the dotted line curved portion there.
`4 Because it's clear from that the case of "or even
`5 behind," clearly the monitor location is behind.
`6 Q. But it's -- it's behind, but is it also
`7 substantially flush with that same area of the light
`8 panel?
`9 A. Well, I believe that what would be done in
`10 constructing a car using this technology, there would
`11 be a transition panel between the section where the
`12 monitor is located and the next backlit advertising
`13 panel.
`14 Q. And so in your view, in that case, the
`15 monitor would be substantially flush with that
`16 transitional panel?
`17 A. Correct.
`18 Q. Can you turn to claim 1, please?
`19 MS. MEREDITH: Objection. Isn't that
`20 outside the scope here?
`21 MR. BILLAH: No. I'm going to be asking
`22 about the term "substantially flush."
`23 MS. MEREDITH: Okay.
`24 A. What page is claim 1?
`25 Q. Well, it's at column 6, line 30.
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. What I'm examining you about is your view
`3 as to the differences of these terms.
`4 A. Sure.
`5 Q. So is substantially flush, is that shown
`6 anywhere in the patent?
`7 A. Let's look some more. Yes.
`8 Q. Where is it shown?
`9 A. It's shown in Figure 5 and Figure 6.
`10 Q. In Figure 5 what is substantially flush
`11 with what?
`12 A. Item 44 is substantially flush with item
`13 40 through the transition panel that I just referred
`14 to in my earlier answer.
`15 Q. And can you see the transition panel in
`16 this Figure 5?
`17 A. I can see it in Figure 5 and in Figure 6.
`18 Q. Where is the transition panel?
`19 A. Can I mark the exhibit?
`20 Q. Yes, please.
`21 A. (The witness complied.)
`22 Q. Can I have it for a second, sir?
`23 A. Sure.
`24 MR. BILLAH: Can you get that on the
`25 camera?
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. BILLAH
`2 Q. So for the record, sir, you just drew two
`3 circles and put your initials with a line to those two
`4 circles; correct?
`5 A. Yes.
`6 Q. You also use the term -- back to your
`7 declaration, in paragraph 6 you also use the term
`8 "flush"; correct?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. What's the difference between the term
`11 "substantially flush" and "flush"?
`12 A. Well, flush, I would suggest, has less of
`13 a transition from the primary dimension of the
`14 surroundi