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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`----------------------------------)
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`APPLE, INC., )
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`)
`
`Petitioner, )
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`)
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`vs.
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`CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE
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`OF TECHNOLOGY,
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`)
`
`) IPR2017-00210
`
`) IPR2017-00700
`
`) IPR2017-00219
`
`) IPR2017-00728
`
`Patent Owner ) IPR2017-00701
`
`----------------------------------)
`
`)
`
`* * C O N F I D E N T I A L * *
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`DEPOSITION OF HUI JIN, Ph.D.
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`New York, New York
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`January 10, 2018
`
`Reported by: BONNIE PRUSZYNSKI, RMR, RPR, CLR
`
`JOB NO. 135900
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`Apple v. Caltech
`IPR2017-00728
`Apple 1263
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`
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`Page 2
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`January 10, 2018
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`8:59 A.M.
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`held at the offices of Wilson Sonsini Goodrich &
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`DEPOSITION OF HUI JIN, Ph.D.,
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`Rosati, 1301 Avenue of the Americas,
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`40th Floor, New York, NY 10019, before
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`Bonnie Pruszynski, a Registered
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`Professional Reporter, Registered Merit Reporter,
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`Certified Livenote Reporter, and Notary Public of
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`the State of New York.
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`Page 3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`WILMERHALE
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`Attorneys for Apple
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`1875 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
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`Washington, D.C. 20006
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`BY: MICHAEL SMITH, ESQ.
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`and
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`60 State Street
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`Boston, Massachusetts 02109
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`BY: RICHARD GOLDENBERG, ESQ.
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`WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
`
`Attorneys for California Institute of Technology
`
`650 Page Mill Road
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`Palo Alto, California 94304
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`BY: MATTHEW ARGENTI, ESQ.
`
`and
`
`701 Fifth Avenue
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`Seattle, WA 98104
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`BY: MICHAEL ROSATO, ESQ.
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`(telephonic appearance for meet and confer
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` only)
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN
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`Attorneys for California Institute of Technology
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` 51 Madison Avenue
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` New York, New York 10010
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`BY: RON HAGIZ, ESQ.
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` Confidential
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` (Witness sworn.)
`
`HUI JIN,
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` called as a witness, having been first
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` duly sworn, was examined and testified
`
` as follows:
`
`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. SMITH:
`
` Q. Good morning. Could you please
`
` provide your address and contact information.
`
` A. My address is 2 River Terrace,
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` Apartment 12L, New York, New York, 10282.
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` Q. And have you taken any medications
`
` that would limit your ability to testify
`
` truthfully today?
`
` A. I did not.
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` Q. Is there any reason you can't
`
` testify truthfully today?
`
` A. There is no reason.
`
` Q. Have you testified before, in a
`
` deposition?
`
` A. In deposition, I did.
`
` Q. How many times?
`
` A. I did twice.
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` Q. And just so the record is clear, my
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`name is Michael Smith, and I am representing
`
`the petitioner Apple. With me is Richard
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`Goldenberg.
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` Can you also please state your name
`
`for the record?
`
` A. My name is Hui Jin, spelled H-U-I,
`
`J-I-N.
`
` Q. How many times have you testified
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`before?
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` A. I testified twice before.
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` Q. In what cases?
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` A. One case was Caltech versus Hughes.
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`The second case is the Caltech versus
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`Broadcom, Apple. There are other companies.
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` Q. So, when you answer questions
`
`today, I will ask that you answer audibly.
`
`Is that okay?
`
` A. Definitely.
`
` Q. And if you don't understand a
`
`question that I ask, will you please let me
`
`know?
`
` A. Definitely, and thank you for
`
`offering.
`
` Q. And if you don't say anything, I
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`will understand that you understood my
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`question, okay?
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Did you do anything to prepare for
`
`your deposition today?
`
` A. I did.
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` Q. What did you do?
`
` A. I did prep with attorneys from, you
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`know, the -- Matt's team.
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` Q. With whom did you speak?
`
` A. Can you ask your question again?
`
` Q. What attorneys did you speak with
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`to prepare for your deposition today?
`
` A. The attorneys I spoke are including
`
`Matt Argenti, Ron Hagiz, and I believe there
`
`are also a few attorneys on the phone,
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`Michael Rosato, Quincy Lu, and Jim Asperger.
`
` Q. Did you speak with anyone else to
`
`prepare for your deposition today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you review any documents to
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`prepare for your deposition?
`
` A. Can you ask your question again?
`
` Q. Did you review any documents to
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`prepare for your deposition today?
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` A. I did.
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` Q. What documents did you review?
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` A. I reviewed my declaration and all
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`the exhibits mentioned in the declaration.
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` Q. Did you review any other documents?
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` A. I believe I also reviewed the --
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`my -- you know, the IRA paper that we -- we
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`had.
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` Q. Anything else?
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` A. As far as I remember at this
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`moment, these are the files I reviewed.
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` Q. Did you do anything else to prepare
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`for your deposition today?
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` A. I also reviewed the files that
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`Caltech gave to me, those software files, the
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`files in my directory when I was working in
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`Caltech. These files probably are going to
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`be mentioned today.
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` Q. Did you review any computer
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`directories to prepare for your deposition
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`today?
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` A. Yes, I did.
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` Q. Did you review any metadata
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`associated with any of the files in those
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`directories?
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` A. I did.
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` Q. Are you represented by counsel
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`today?
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` A. What do you mean?
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` Q. You understand that, or are you --
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`withdrawn.
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` Are you aware whether your counsel,
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`or are you -- strike that.
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` Are you aware of whether
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`Mr. Argenti and others that you met with also
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`represent Caltech in this litigation?
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` A. That's my understanding.
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` Q. Have you entered into any
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`agreements to consult with Caltech in
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`connection with this litigation?
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` A. What do you mean, enter an
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`agreement?
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` Q. Do you have any agreement with
`
`Caltech in connection with this litigation?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
`
` A. Yeah, can you -- if you can
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`paraphrase your question, I would appreciate
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`that.
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` Q. Have you entered into any
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`agreements with Caltech?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I do have an agreement with
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`Caltech.
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` Q. Could you describe that agreement?
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` A. Can you point to me that -- what
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`you are referring to? To my declaration?
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` Q. No. I'm asking whether you have
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`any agreements with Caltech?
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` A. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you can
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`point me to declaration, I can probably
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`answer your question.
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` Q. Do you need your declaration to say
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`whether you have an agreement with Caltech?
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` A. My understanding is that today my
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`testimony is about the declaration, and you
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`are not supposed to be asking any questions
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`outside of the declaration.
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` Q. Are you able to answer whether you
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`have an agreement with Caltech without seeing
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`your declaration?
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` A. I can, but I am saying if you can
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`point me to the declaration -- you know, if
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`it is related to my declaration, I'm more
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`than happy to answer that question.
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` Q. Dr. Jin, what is the nature of your
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`consulting agreement -- or let me rephrase
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`that.
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` Dr. Jin, what is the nature of your
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`agreement with Caltech?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I mean, you kind of -- you have not
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`get me the answer for the first question.
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`I'm asking if you can point me to the
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`declaration. It's my understanding that I am
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`going to -- I'm here for testimony about my
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`declaration, so I would appreciate it if you
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`stay inside the declaration.
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` Q. Dr. Jin, I'm here to ask you
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`questions. If your counsel thinks my
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`questions are inappropriate or outside the
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`scope, they can object, but you need to
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`answer my questions. Do you understand that?
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` A. Okay. If you say so.
`
` Can you ask your question again?
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`
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` Q. I am handing you a copy of U.S.
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`Patent Number 7,116,710, which is identified
`
`as Apple Exhibit 1001 from IPR2017-00210.
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` Do you have that document?
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` A. Should I usually have like a label
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`as well?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Not in this
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` proceeding.
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` THE WITNESS: Oh, not in this --
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` MR. ARGENTI: It should be
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` pre-marked.
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` THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. Yeah.
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` Because in the last deposition, I have
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` those things.
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`BY MR. SMITH:
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` Q. Yeah, that -- some of them will be
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` pre-marked in this case, and others we will
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` add a label if needed.
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` A. Okay. I do have the document.
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` Q. You are a named inventor on U.S.
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` 7,116,710; correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. If I refer to this as the '710
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` patent, do you understand I am referring to
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` 7,116,710?
`
` A. I understand.
`
` Q. I'm also handing you a copy of the
`
` declaration of Dr. Hui Jin, which has been
`
` marked Caltech Exhibit 2020 from
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` IPR2017-00210.
`
` (Interruption.)
`
` Q. Do you see on the cover of the
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`declaration it says Patent Number 7,116,710?
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` A. I see that.
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` Counsel, sorry to interrupt. If
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`you are going to go into the declaration, I
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`have two corrections I want to make. Do you
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`want me to make it now or -- there are two
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`corrections that after reviewing the document
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`last week, I identified there are two typos
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`that are in the declaration.
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` Now, for the correctness, and for
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`this deposition to go complete smoothly, I
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`want to correct it at certain point. If you
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`want me to correct now or you can ask me to
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`correct later.
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` Q. Yeah, go ahead and correct it now.
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` A. Okay. So, the first correction is
`
`on page five, paragraph eight on page five.
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`So, it reads from the second line, "for
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`example, that profile indicates that
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`48.972 percent of the variable nodes
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`(information bits) would be repeated 15
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`times."
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` So here the correction should be
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`"48.972 percent of the variable nodes' edges
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`associated with -- associated with variable
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`nodes which are repeated 15 times."
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. And that same goes for the next,
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`"and 0.240 percent of the variable nodes,"
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`same thing. "0.240 percent of the variable
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`nodes' edges associated with variable nodes
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`which are repeated 14 times." This is the
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`first correction.
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` The second correction is on page
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`nine, paragraph 12. Page nine, paragraph 12.
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. It also reads, the second line,
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`right now it says, "the variable var_node,
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`'*CheckNode' defined IRA.h as an array of
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`var_node objects."
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` Replace the "var_node" with a
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`"check node" for both these two places. Is
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`"an array of var_node" changed to "an array
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`of check node."
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` Q. Anything else?
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` A. That's it.
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` Q. I'm also going to hand you a copy
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`of the declaration submitted in -- the
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`declaration of Dr. Jin submitted in
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`IPR2017-219.
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` And I am also handing you a copy of
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`the declaration submitted in -- of Dr. Jin
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`submitted in IPR2017-701.
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` Each of these says Patent Number
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`7,116,710 on the cover; correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. And each of these declarations is
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`the same; correct?
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` A. I mean you want me to compare word
`
`by word?
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` Q. Did you prepare -- how many
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`declarations did you prepare?
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` A. I only prepared one.
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` Q. And it's the same declaration that
`
`was submitted in each of the IPRs; correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. And if we use the declaration for
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`IPR2017-210 that I handed you earlier, that
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`applies to all your other declarations that
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`were -- or applies to the declarations that
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`were submitted in the other cases as well;
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`correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Okay. You can put aside the
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`declarations from 219 and 701, and we will
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`just use the 2017-210 declaration.
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` A. We are going to make all the
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`corrections on all those documents as well;
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`right? The two corrections I made.
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` Q. Correct. Understood.
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` Your declaration discusses the '710
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`patent; correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. Can you clarify your question?
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` Q. Your declaration offers testimony
`
`concerning the '710 patent; correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. Concerning, what do you mean?
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` Q. Paragraph one of your declaration
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`mentions the '710 patent; correct?
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` A. Do you mean that the first sentence
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`says I am a named inventor of this patent?
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` Q. Yeah, and with that in mind, you
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`see that the declaration references the '710
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`patent; correct?
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` A. Yeah, this declaration is about the
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`circumstances that I recalled and I am
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`confident about, you know, when we conceived
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`the ideas of our invention of IRA codes and
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`all the facts that I remembered regarding
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`time period leading to the provisional filing
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`of the '710 patent.
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` Q. Your declaration does not discuss
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`any other patents; correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. This declaration is about the
`
`invention, is about how we conceived the
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`ideas.
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` Q. The only patent discussed in the
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`Jin declaration is the '710 patent; correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I mean, that's not entirely
`
`correct, because the invention of the
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`other -- I mean the other patents is also
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`about invention, this invention, the
`
`invention of irregular repeat-accumulate
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`codes. We have different claims about this
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`very important innovation, and this
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`declaration is about that innovation. It's
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`not about that patent in particular. If I
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`answered that question clearly.
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` Q. Your declaration doesn't discuss
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`any other patents besides the '710 patent;
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`correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I think I already answered that
`
`question. The '710 patent is about
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`invention. In this declaration is about our
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`invention, how we get the idea, the process,
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`you know, the circumstances we had idea and
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`all the evidences of -- about the time
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`period, what we have been doing, what I have
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`done in particular during that period, I mean
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`getting the ideas, reducing to practice.
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` Q. Your declaration does not discuss
`
`any specific claims of the '710 patent;
`
`correct?
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` A. Can you say your question again.
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` Q. You understand that the '710 patent
`
`has -- contains patent claims; correct?
`
` A. Yes, I do understand.
`
` Q. You do not discuss any of the
`
`patent claims of the '710 patent in your
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`declaration; correct?
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` A. In this declaration, as I already
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`mentioned, is about the -- one is about how
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`we conceived the idea and how these ideas
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`were actually implemented, showing the
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`evidence of those documents, and more
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`importantly about the dates.
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` So, it's the -- the structure of
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`our invention is in this declaration.
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` Q. The specific claims of the '710
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`patent are not discussed in the declaration;
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`correct?
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` A. I mean that probably calls for some
`
`legal judgment. I am not sure I am qualified
`
`to say. I only can say is, this declaration
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`is about the invention, the invention in the
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`sense that the structure of IRA codes is
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`clearly described, I mean discussed here, the
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`circumstances, circumstances we conceived the
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`idea, and how much work we put into
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`developing the idea, leading to the provision
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`of the invention.
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` Q. You don't specifically discuss any
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`of the '710 patent's claims, though; correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I think I just answered that
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`question. I'm saying that, you know, that
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`seems like calling a legal judgment, which I
`
`am not qualified to say that. I'm just
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`saying that what this declaration is about,
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`is about the innovation of the IRA patent,
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`the circumstances, you know, the discussion
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`when there -- the evidence of showing from
`
`both Dr. McEliece and me, there are several
`
`evidence, several factors. There are many
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`factors actually. You are welcome to go into
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`detail.
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` But for your question about
`
`discussing the claims, I'm not qualified -- I
`
`don't think I'm qualified to say that.
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` Q. So, you couldn't, for example,
`
`point me to a paragraph in your declaration
`
`where you specifically discuss claim one of
`
`the '710 patent?
`
` A. All I can say is in this
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`declaration, for example, the figure three,
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`has the important elements of our IRA code
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`invention. The innovation has four unique
`
`elements, combine them together in a unique
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`way, and which generates surprising and
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`superior performance.
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` So, it has all the elements there.
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`Now, to -- specifically saying that, whether
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`that reads as claim one, I'm not qualified to
`
`say, but it has all the elements.
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` Q. You don't offer an opinion on
`
`whether it reads on claim one; correct?
`
` A. Can you say your question again.
`
` Q. You testified specifically saying,
`
`"whether that reads on claim one, I am not
`
`qualified to say."
`
` Did I read that correctly?
`
` A. Yeah, I am saying that I am not
`
`legal expert like you guys are, so I am not
`
`try to offer that opinion of saying that,
`
`whether I can say one way or another, but
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`this has all the elements of our invention,
`
`so it has all the elements on figure three,
`
`and this declaration is actually going
`
`through saying, you know, we had this idea by
`
`March 10th.
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` MR. SMITH: I'm going to start a
`
` new line of questioning. I don't know if
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` you guys want to take a break now or I
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` can keep going with that.
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` MR. ARGENTI: Sure. It's been
`
` almost an hour.
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` THE WITNESS: Let's take a break.
`
` (Recess from 9:55 to 10:04 a.m.)
`
`BY MR. SMITH:
`
` Q. Dr. Jin, in your declaration, you
`
` refer to several exhibits; correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And you allege that those exhibits
`
` show that you conceived and reduced the
`
` invention to practice; correct?
`
` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
`
` A. Can you clarify your question?
`
` Q. Sure.
`
` Your declaration refers to various
`
` exhibits; correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. And some of these exhibits you
`
` assert show that you conceived your
`
` invention; correct?
`
` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
`
` A. Can you ask me your question again?
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` Q. Are there any -- strike that.
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` You have your declaration; right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. As of January 2015, you did not
`
`have any documents that would show conception
`
`or reduction to practice of the '710 patent;
`
`correct?
`
` A. It's a long sentence. Can you
`
`break it down?
`
` Q. Sure.
`
` As of January of 2015, you did not
`
`have any documents that would show conception
`
`or reduction to practice of the '710 patent;
`
`correct?
`
` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
`
` A. What's this January -- you said a
`
`date of January 2015?
`
` Q. Correct.
`
` A. What is that date?
`
` Q. As of January 2015, did you have
`
`any of the exhibits in your possession that
`
`you reference in your declaration?
`
` A. No. These files are on the Caltech
`
`server, that when I left Caltech in 2001,
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`after my graduation from Ph.D. program, I did
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`not take those files referred in the exhibit
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`with me, so...
`
` Q. When did you -- after leaving
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`Caltech, when did you first see the exhibits
`
`that you referenced in your declaration?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I got this file sometime early of
`
`last year, and I review those, and I make
`
`sure that these are actually my files.
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` Q. Did you review those in connection
`
`with this litigation?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. So, between January -- I'm sorry,
`
`strike that.
`
` Between 2001, when you left
`
`Caltech, and 2017, when you reviewed the
`
`documents you cite in your declaration, in
`
`connection with this litigation, you did not
`
`have the documents you cite in your
`
`possession; correct?
`
` A. I personally don't have the
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`documents with me during that period of time.
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`But once I got hold of the files, I checked
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`the directory, and I also checked the
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`metadata, and all the files I checked in the
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`metadata was before 2001, so no one messed
`
`around with those files. So, and I looked at
`
`the directory. Those are kind of --
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` Q. I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm
`
`just going to ask again, please answer the
`
`question that I have asked.
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` MR. ARGENTI: And let him complete
`
` his answer that he is providing.
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` A. Yeah, I would appreciate if you let
`
`me finish my answer. Is that okay?
`
` Q. Go ahead.
`
` A. So, I just said that I reviewed the
`
`directory, I reviewed the file, the metadata
`
`of the files, showing that -- all the files I
`
`checked, I checked the metadata and
`
`directories. There was no change after 2001,
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`so I am confident that no one else touched
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`the file.
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` That is consistent with my
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`understanding, this -- the files in Caltech
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`were -- only have -- I mean, I am the only
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`one have write access to these directories,
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`to these files, and I look at a directory,
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`it's consistent with my recollection of how I
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`organized the projects, and so, even though
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`that I don't have those files in possession
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`during that period of time, I look at it,
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`these are my files.
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` MR. SMITH: I'm just going to note
`
` for the record that was not responsive,
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` and if the witness keeps giving answers
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` that are not responsive to my questions,
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` we may need to take it up with the Board
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` at some point. But I will again ask the
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` witness to answer the question that I
`
` asked and not answer beyond what I am
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` asking.
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` Q. Do you understand that?
`
` A. I think I understand.
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` Q. I am handing you a document that is
`
`identified as Caltech Exhibit 2021, from
`
`IPR2017-210.
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` This is an exhibit you cite in your
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`declaration; correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. I'm also going to hand you an
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`exhibit that's been labeled Exhibit 2022, in
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`IPR2017-210.
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` And this is another exhibit that
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`you cite in your declaration; correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. If I refer to Exhibit 2022 as the
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`McEliece notebook, will you understand what I
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`am talking about?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. You did not see Exhibit 2022 in
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`2000; correct?
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` A. I did not see this page, but I
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`recognize the writing of Dr. McEliece.
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` Q. So, you did not see Exhibit 2022 in
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`2000; correct?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I recognize his handwriting. I did
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`not see this particular document, but I
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`recognize his handwriting. I work with
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`Dr. McEliece for more than six years, five,
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`six years.
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` Q. Dr. Jin, I'm not asking whether you
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`recognize his handwriting. I'm asking you,
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`did you see this note -- did you see
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`Exhibit 2022 in 2000?
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` MR. ARGENTI: Objection, form.
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` A. I answered your question already.
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`In the sentence, I already said that I
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`recognize his handwriting, but I did not see
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`this particular document in 2000. But this
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`is Dr. McEliece's handwriting.
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` Q. You are not aware of anyone who is
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`not a named inventor on the patents who at
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`the time that Exhibit 2022 was created
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`witnessed the document, either by signing it
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`or providing some other attestation; correct?
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` A. That's a long sentence. Can you
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`say it again.
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` Q. You are not aware of anyone who, at
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`the time Exhibit 2022 was created, witnessed
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`the document by signing it or signing some
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`other attestation; correct?
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` A. That's correct. I am not aware of
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`anyone that seen this document.
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` Q. Can you turn to page 21.
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` You don't know whether these notes
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`were in fact written on March 7th, 2000;
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`correct?
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` A. Actually, I'm fairly confident they
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`are writ- -- they were written on March 7th.
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`Actually, thank you for giving me both the
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`e-mail and this document, because if you put
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`them together, that Dr. McEliece are trying
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`to describe the RA code in a form that we can
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`generalize into irregular LDGM plus
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`accumulator code, and similarly in this
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`e-mail, it's basically the same thing.
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` So, if you put them together, I'm
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`very confident they were written on
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`March 7th.
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` Q. You don't know -- you don't know
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`whether they were written