UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`____________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`____________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY,
`Patent Owner.
`____________
`
`Case IPR2017-00700 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`Case IPR2017-00701 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`Case IPR2017-00728 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`____________
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
` Held: May 8, 2018
`____________
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`
`
`Before KEN B. BARRETT, TREVOR M. JEFFERSON, and
`JOHN A. HUDALLA, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`____________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`____________
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`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY,
`Patent Owner.
`____________
`
`Case IPR2017-00700 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`Case IPR2017-00701 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`Case IPR2017-00728 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`____________
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
` Held: May 8, 2018
`____________
`
`
`
`Before KEN B. BARRETT, TREVOR M. JEFFERSON, and
`JOHN A. HUDALLA, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`Case IPR2017-00700 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`Case IPR2017-00701 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
`Case IPR2017-00728 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`RICHARD GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE
`MICHAEL H. SMITH, ESQUIRE
`WilmerHale
`Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, LLP
`1875 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
`Washington, D.C. 20006
`202-663-6055
`
`
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`ALSO PRESENT:
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`
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`MICHAEL ROSATO, ESQUIRE
`QUINCY LU, ESQUIRE
`MATTHEW ARGENTINI, ESQUIRE
`Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, LLP
`701 Fifth Avenue
`Seattle, Washington 98115
`206-883-3529
`
`
`
`JAMES M. DOWD, ESQUIRE
`Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, LLP
`350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100
`Los Angeles, California 90071
`
`TODD M. BRIGGS, ESQUIRE
`Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan, LLP
`555 Twin Dolphin Drive, 5th Floor
`Redwood Shores
`California 94065
`
`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Tuesday, May 8,
`
`2018, commencing at 9:01 a.m., at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office,
`600 Dulany Street, Alexandria, Virginia.
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`Case IPR2017-00701 (Patent 7,421,032 B2)
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
`JUDGE BARRETT: You may be seated. Good morning, everyone.
`We are on the record in IPR 2017-00700, IPR 2017-00701 and IPR 2017-
`00728, Apple Incorporated v. California Institute of Technology. Is that
`correct?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Yes, Your Honor.
`JUDGE BARRETT: Thank you. If we can have the attorneys'
`appearances, please, Petitioner?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Good morning, Your Honor. My name is
`Richard Goldenberg, I am Lead Counsel for Apple Incorporated, and with
`me at the counsel table is Michael Smith, my Co-Counsel.
`MR. SMITH: Hi.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: And with me right across the table is Jim
`Dowd, also my Co-Counsel.
`JUDGE BARRETT: Good morning. Welcome. Patent Owner?
`MR. ROSATO: Good morning, Your Honor. Mike Rosato for Cal
`Tech; I have Quincy Lu who is at the counsel table with me, Matthew
`Argenti behind me, and Todd Briggs. Thank you.
`JUDGE BARRETT: Welcome. If you are prepared to discuss, a
`preliminary matter, the Supreme Court's decision in SAS. I know you had a
`chance to meet and confer, and I want to commend you for that. What are
`your thoughts on how should we proceed; Petitioner?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Yes, Your Honor. So, we did reach an
`agreement outside before the hearing this morning, and so we have
`agreement --
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`JUDGE JEFFERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Why don't you step
`to that podium, just in case the recording device doesn’t pick you up there?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Thank you, Your Honor. Yes. Mr. Rosato
`and I spoke outside the hearing this morning, before the hearing, and we do
`have an agreement on a joint proposal to request that the Board dismiss or
`withdraw all the claims that were originally not instituted, in these IPRs as
`well as the IPRs that were argued a few weeks ago, 210, 219 and --
`MR. ROSATO: 297.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: 297. So, as long as the Board would agree to
`withdraw those claims such that there's no final written decision on them,
`then we would jointly request that the Board dismiss that.
`JUDGE BARRETT: All right. I tell you what I will do, after the
`hearing today or tomorrow, I will issue an order authorizing a joint motion,
`and we'll go from there.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Thank you.
`JUDGE BARRETT: Thank you, both of you. All right then, on to
`the hearings. We set forth the procedure in the hearings order, but we do
`have some flexibility here. We set aside 30 minutes per side, per case. I
`suspect it won't take that long. We will have one continuous transcript for
`all three proceedings. There is no need to repeat arguments. I believe most
`of the arguments in these cases the issues are the same across all three. So,
`no need to repeat.
`The working assumption is, we will handle these sequentially. Is that
`still how you want -- the parties want to handle it?
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`MR. GOLDENBERG: For Petitioner, yes, Your Honor. We agree
`that second and third hearings may be substantially shorter than the first, but
`we had planned to address them sequentially.
`MR. ROSATO: That's fine with us, Your Honor.
`JUDGE BARRETT: All right. Wonderful! As always, for clarity of
`the transcript when you refer to an exhibit on the screen, please state for the
`record the exhibit and the page number, or the demonstrative page, so we'll
`be able to understand that later.
`So, we are going to handle these sequentially. Petitioner, you'll go
`first. You can reserve time for rebuttal, and Patent Owner then will present
`its response, and then you can use your rebuttal time, Petitioner. And I'll
`give each -- I'm going to use the clock, and I'll give each Counsel a warning
`when you're reaching the end. Any questions?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: I'd like to reserve about 10 minutes for
`rebuttal, if I can, if Mr. Smith can give me a warning when I'm getting near
`20 minutes.
`MR. SMITH: Okay.
`JUDGE BARRETT: With that then, Petitioner, you may begin.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Good morning, Your Honor. So, if we can
`turn to slide 2 for the 700 slides, I plan to follow a similar roadmap that we
`did in the prior hearings, but as always, if the Court has questions or would
`like to hear things in a different order, just let me know, I'm happy to
`address the Board's questions at any time.
`But turning to the first point on slide 4, and this is an overview of the
`invalidity of the challenged claims, here, on slide 4 we are showing the two
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`grounds that have been instituted. All of the challenge claims here, there's
`only one independent claim, claim 11 is the independent claim, and all the
`claims are invalid over combinations of the Ping, MacKay and Divsalar
`references, with the Luby97 reference contributing to the invalidity of one
`claim, claim 13.
`Briefly, the Ping reference, teaches most of the limitations required by
`these claims, Ping could be thought of as missing two features. One would
`be irregularity, Ping's irregular code, and the claims require irregularity, and
`then the other would be an explicit teaching of repetition of bits; and
`MacKay, as to this combination, the teaching of irregularity, and Divsalar as
`the explicit teaching of repetition.
`And then finally, for the one remaining claim, the Luby97 reference
`provides a teaching of crossing the bits in a stream. It's a well-known detail,
`it's typified by Luby97 here, Luby97, is providing that same teaching as it
`did in the prior hearings that we had a few weeks ago.
`Now, turning to slide 5, this is claim 11, the one independent claim,
`and as you can see on the left claim 11 has some text, and then on the right,
`claim 11 also includes this graph, the Tanner graph. And I will try and
`show, at least at a high level, how the combination of Ping, MacKay and
`Divsalar, teach all the limitations required by this claim.
`And if we turn to slide 6, this is the construction for the Tanner graph
`term, and this is as it was presented in our petition, it was the Board's
`construction in the prior IPRs on the same patent involving the Hughes
`party. The Board here adopted the same construction, so this is the
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`construction of the Tanner graph, just broken up into three pieces, so we can
`deal with it one at a time.
`And I'll try and show how each of these pieces are meant by the art,
`and then I'm going to go in reverse order starting with the (iii) term. And so
`if we turn to slide 7, this is the (iii) portion of the construction, which
`requires parity bits, you know, parity bit is determined -- is the function of
`both information bits and other parity bits as shown by the configuration of
`nodes and edges in this Tanner graph.
`And at the bottom of the slide here, the bottom left, this is Ping's
`equation 4. And I'll try and show how Ping's equation teaches this
`limitation, or this portion of the construction.
`But just backing up for a moment to give an overview of Ping, in
`Ping's equation, the Ps stand for parity bits, the Ds stand for information bits,
`and then the Hs are elements of Ping's HD matrix.
`And every one of the parity bits involves a summation of Hs times Ds.
`That's a binary code, the elements of H will always be either one or zero,
`where H is zero it just zeros out the corresponding information bit. Where H
`is a 1, the summation turns into just a sum of information bits, because at
`one time the information bit has the same value as the information bit. So,
`the sum becomes -- the summation becomes a sum of some collection of
`information bits.
`And if we start with the first parity bit, P1, P1 is determined entirely
`as a sum of some number of information bits, or a subset of the information
`bits, wherever the H1 equals the 1.
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`And then to get to P2 or all the remaining bits, you use the prior bit.
`So, if we take the example of the second parity bit, we can substitute number
`two in for the value (i) in the orange box, in Ping's equation, and that would
`tell us that P2, the second parity bit equals P1, the parity bit that we just
`calculated a moment ago, plus another sum of information bits, likely
`different information bits, but the basic formula holds, any parity bit after
`the first one will be the sum of the prior parity bit, and then plus a collection
`of information bits.
`And that's what's shown on the right. On the left of slide 7 is Ping's
`actual equation 4, on the right, we've just broken it out, to show what the
`explicit equation would be for a few of the parity bits.
`And now if we compare this back to the claim construction, the
`current construction is that the parity bit is determined as a function of both
`information bits and other parity bits. Well, that's just what Ping does.
`Every parity bit is a sum of the prior parity bit plus other information bits.
`And in fact, many of the parity bits depend on more than one parity bit.
`We could see that, for example, with P3 -- or P4, P4 equals P3 plus a
`bunch of information bits, P3 itself depends on P2 which depends on P1,
`therefore, once you get past the first couple, parity bits are determined as a
`function of both information bits and other parity bits, plural.
`So that's the arithmetic part of this construction, the remaining part is
`that it matches the configuration and nodes and edges of the Tanner graph.
`And Ping's equation does that, and I can show that by flipping back and
`forth between slides 7 and slide 5, that has the Tanner graph. And just to
`orient on this paragraph, here on the left, the U nodes, those represent
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`information bits. The V nodes that are kind of in the middle, just to the right
`of the random permutation, they represent the check bits, so the parity
`checks, and then the bubbles on the right, the Xs, those represent the parity
`bits.
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`The V nodes, every one of them enforces the constraint saying that the
`sum of all the edges connected to it must be zero. So, if we start with the
`first parity check, V1, V1 has, if we ignore ellipses, V1 has four edges
`connected to it. Three edges reach out to the left, to three of the information
`bits, three of the U-s, and then one of the edges reaches out to the right, to
`the first parity bit, X1.
`So the equation enforced by V1 is going to be: X1 plus the three
`information bits must equal zero. And in binary, Mod 2 arithmetic, anything
`plus itself equals zero, so that equation is the same as X1 equals the sum of
`three information bits.
`And that is exactly what Ping does on slide 7, the first parity bit, P1,
`which is X1 in terms of the Tanner graph, equals a sum of information bits.
`And now if we look at the next parity check back to slide 5, let's take
`V2, the second parity check, the check equation enforced by V2 is all the
`edges connected to it must be zero, so X1 plus X2 plus three more
`information bits, must all equal zero, if we add X2 to both sides that
`equation becomes X2 equals X1 plus 3 information bits. And that is, again,
`exactly what Ping does as we see on slide 5. Every parity bit after the first
`one equals the prior parity bit plus the sum of information bits.
`So, Ping doesn’t describe his code in terms of Tanner graph, he
`describes it using parity check matrices and equations, but as we explained
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`to the petition, there is a duality between parity check matrices and Tanner
`graphs. One of skill in the art will understand if they see a parity check
`matrix they know what the corresponding Tanner graph would be, and that's
`not a point that's in dispute. So, that is how Ping teaches this portion of the
`construction.
`If we move to slide 8, and the (ii) part of the construction, the part to
`focus on here, is the word "randomly", so here the check nodes are randomly
`connected to the repeated message bits to enforce constraints determined by
`the parity bits. And Ping explicitly teaches that random aspect.
`In the code here, on slide 8, it explains that in the construction of HD
`we randomly create the distribution of 1s -- the number of 1s per column,
`and the number of 1s per row. Ping's random placement of the 1s in HD
`exactly corresponds to the random requirement in this part of the
`construction.
`And then if we move to slide 9; and now are at the single (i) part of
`the construction, and the part to focus on here is the repeat. I'll come back to
`irregular in a moment, because irregular is taught by MacKay, but if we just
`focused on the repeat part. So, it's a graph representing a repeat to
`accumulate code, and so on.
`Ping doesn’t explicitly teach repeating the information bits, but doing
`that would have been obvious particularly in view of Divsalar. The point
`here is that in Ping's HD matrix, in Ping's original disclosure, every column
`of HD has weight four, and that means that every information bit is going to
`contribute to exactly four parity checks.
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`An obvious way for one ordinary skill to implement that would be to
`repeat the parity bits four times, so that there's one copy of the parity bit
`available for use in every one of the checks.
`Now, if you would have to implement it that way, it would have been
`obvious to implement Ping with or without such repetition, but the point is
`that implementing Ping with the repetition would have been obvious, and
`Divsalar shows an obvious way to do that repetition. Repeaters are well
`known, that's also not in dispute. So, Ping, in view of Divsalar, teaches this
`repetition aspect.
`That, I think covers everything required by the claim, claim 11, except
`for the notion of irregularity. And if we turn to slide 12, it's MacKay that is
`providing the teaching of irregularity, and --
`JUDGE BARRETT: Before you move on to that, the check nodes?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Yes.
`JUDGE BARRETT: My understanding is, Petitioner's position is the
`check nodes provide constraints.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Yes.
`JUDGE BARRETT: And then it is met by Ping's constraints,
`including the one about -- I believe I'm reading from Ping, "We randomly
`create exactly one element one per column," as being one of the constraints.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Yes.
`JUDGE BARRETT: So if --
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Or at least four -- I'm sorry -- it's four per
`column we take before -- I'm sorry for the interruption, Your Honor, I
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`believe you're right. HD is broken up into segments, and then each of the
`segments there's one, a single one per column?
`JUDGE BARRETT: Correct. So, my understanding is, Petitioner is
`using that to map to the check node requirement of the Tanner graph. The
`constraints imposed by that one element, one per column.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: I think it's -- I'd say it a little bit differently.
`In the columns of HD -- the number of 1s in the columns of HD determine
`the number of checks that a given information bit would contribute to; the
`number of 1s in a row of HD determine the number of information bits that
`would be summed for any given check. So, for a particular parity check,
`you would actually have to look at the 1s in the row, in the corresponding
`row of HD. But it is correct that it's -- HD is providing the constraints that
`match up with the Tanner graph.
`Does that -- I hope I haven't made things more confusing.
`JUDGE BARRETT: No. I think this is helpful to make sure we are
`all understanding, and the confusion may be on my end. Okay. So, you are
`saying the HD, generally is the constraint that corresponds to the check
`nodes?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: That's right.
`JUDGE BARRETT: Okay. As opposed to the specific requirement
`that Ping sets out as one element, one per column.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: That's right. It's the nature of HD itself that
`matches the check nodes in the Tanner graph, and there's no dispute about
`this in Ping's example, there are exactly four 1s per column, which would
`make Ping be a regular code. The irregularity comes from the teaching of
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`MacKay which would suggest that one of ordinary skill to make the weights
`of HD, the column weights of HD uneven, and once that is done, then you
`have an irregular code that matches claim 11.
`JUDGE BARRETT: Why I'm asking this line of questions, and I
`don't know if this is exactly the Patent Owner's position, but I want to make
`sure I understand, because as my initial questions suggested, my
`understanding is you were establishing that Ping disclosed constraints, and
`then by modifying to include irregularity, wouldn't you be destroying the
`constraint you just needed for the check node limitation?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: So, no, Your Honor. So, whether Ping has
`uneven weights per column or even weights per column, it still matches the
`check node requirement, making the column weights uneven then matches
`the claims requirement that the information bits be used irregularly.
`So, I think that the point that -- the Patent Owners argue that there
`would not have been a motivation to use MacKay's irregularity in Ping,
`because Ping sets forth these so-called rules that there are going to be so
`many 1s per column, and so many 1s per row.
`I think that's the wrong way to look at it, and it's not how one of
`ordinary skill would have looked at it. Ping's overall parity check matrix
`includes two portions, one called HP, and then one called HD. The HP
`portion can have only one -- and this was Ping's contribution really, is to
`take an LDPC matrix and turn it into something that could be encoded
`quickly.
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`One of the criticisms of LDPCs is -- prior to this, was if you had a low
`density parity check matrix, the generator would be high density, and high
`density generator matrix is going to make the encoding slide.
`What Ping did, was he disclosed this way of splitting up the parity
`check matrix where you have something very regular and determined in HP,
`and it's not in dispute that there's only one form for HP, one of skill in the art
`would not have messed with HP.
`HD though, has a random structure. It's both low density and random.
`That's what makes the encoding fast, because HD is actually used as the
`generator matrix in Ping. And you can see that from this equation on slide 5,
`we compute the parity bits from the information bits in HD, mathematically,
`in terms of the (inaudible), the same thing would be represented by
`multiplying the HD matrix times the column of the information bits to get
`the parity bits, that makes HD be a generator.
`So, backing up, Ping has got irregular structure in HP, a random
`structure in HD, as long as HD is both random and low density, it meets the
`spirit of Ping. And what MacKay adds, is to take Ping's explicit example,
`HD had the same number of 1s per row, and the same number of 1s per
`column, but MacKay is teaching that irregularity improves things, and
`would have motivated one of ordinary skill to make the HD -- make the
`weights uneven. Is that --
`JUDGE BARRETT: I think that's quite helpful. By my count you
`have about five more minutes.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Thank you, Your Honor. One point, as long
`as we are on this, that I wanted to mention is, there has been a lot of
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`discussion in this case about unpredictability, and the Patent Owners argue
`that the unpredictability of this field would have made it -- would dissuade
`one of ordinary skill from modifying Ping to use MacKay's irregularity.
`We, of course, disagree with that. Let me see if I can find the slide
`here, so on slide 11, we've got the motivation coming from MacKay for one
`of ordinary skill to use MacKay's irregularity in Ping. MacKay taught that
`irregularity clearly improved the code. One or ordinary skill would have
`been motivated to use that.
`Now, according to the Patent Owner, one of ordinary skill would have
`looked at this and said, irregularity, I'd better stay away from that, too
`unpredictable, don't use it, don't touch it.
`That's not the mindset of one of ordinary skill, it makes -- that would
`turn one of ordinary skill into an automaton. One of ordinary skill reading
`Ping and MacKay would have been motivated to try and obtain the superior
`part -- performance offered by MacKay's irregularity in Ping.
`Now there are many ways one of ordinary skill could have done that.
`There are lots of -- as the Patent Owner points out, there are lots of
`modifications that could be done to HD. Every one of those would have
`invalidated the claims. There's no dispute that making HD irregular results
`in irregular code that meets the limitations. And every single modification
`to HD that makes it irregular, meets the claims.
`JUDGE HUDALLA: Can I ask you about?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Yes.
`JUDGE HUDALLA: In the last hearing, you were asked about
`obvious-to-try, and that's what you're, again, sounding like, there's a million
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`ways we could do this, right? But you are not making an obvious-to-try
`argument in this case. I mean, that's your position, right?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: That's true. And we actually try to avoid that,
`Your Honor.
`JUDGE HUDALLA: Okay.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: What I'm saying is, one of ordinary skill
`would have been motivated to use the irregularity and the matter -- there
`would have been, with certainty, the modification would have resulted in a
`code that worked. The only thing that's in dispute is with that -- with the
`performance of that code have been optimal. Well, that would have -- that
`probably would have required some experimentation that one of the skill in
`the art was used to doing in this field, to arrive at an optimal code, or one
`that had desired performance.
`But there's no performance requirement in any of these claims, or the
`claims that we discussed a few weeks ago. So, the point I'm trying to make
`is that once one of ordinary skill uses the irregularity of MacKay in Ping, as
`they would have been motivated to do, these claims are invalid, because we
`now have a combination that meets every limitation of the claims, and that's
`true no matter which way one of ordinary skill might have decided to modify
`Ping's HD.
`Now, the specific example that we have posited was MacKay talks
`about column weights of 9 and 3, it would have been obvious to use 9 and 3
`column weights in HD, any which way one of ordinary skill in the art did
`that, they get the results in the claim -- the combination that invalidates the
`claims. Does that --
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`JUDGE JEFFERSON: I think it does. I just -- you know, I guess
`that's how you would respond to Patent Owner's argument that there's -- I
`think they said 10 to the 15th, or something, number of permutations that
`could come out of this combination.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: And every one of those permutations would
`invalidate the claim.
`JUDGE HUDALLA: Okay.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Every one results in a code that functions as a
`code, there's no doubt they would produce parity bits, there's no doubt they
`could be decoded. The only thing that's in doubt that might have required
`some experiment would be the performance. Is this an optimally-performing
`code, but that's actually irrelevant for all the claims under consideration.
`JUDGE HUDALLA: I mean, now you're turning it into -- that kind of
`moves us into reasonable expectation of success. I mean, obviously a person
`of ordinary skill in the art wouldn't have wanted a worse code to come out of
`this combination you're proposing, right?
`MR. GOLDENBERG: That's true. And if MacKay had -- if the
`teachings of MacKay had been that irregularity is something that makes
`things worse and should be avoided at all cost, then maybe there would not
`have been a reasonable expectation of success. But the teaching of MacKay
`is the opposite. MacKay is teaching, this is exciting, the irregularity
`improved the performance. That's what would have motivated one of
`ordinary skill to make the combination, and they would have had an
`expectation that they modified code would work as a code.
`JUDGE HUDALLA: I think I understand your position.
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`JUDGE BARRETT: Your initial 20 minutes is up.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. I'm just
`going to mention a couple things quickly, and I'll reserve the rest of my time.
`I think that covers the overview of why the claims are invalid.
`On slide 16, as we saw the last time the Patent Owner had chosen not
`to depose or reply declarant, not Dr. Frey or Dr. Davis in a second
`declaration. As the record stands, their testimony is unchallenged.
`I think, I'm just going to address one point about the row weights. So
`the Patent Owners argued that MacKay does not teach uninform row
`weights, so I think it's undisputed that MacKay teaches non-uniform column
`weights.
`This pertains to just one dependent claim, I believe it's dependent
`claim 12. MacKay, and here we have on slide 21, MacKay teaches, looking
`at the bottom part of the code we select a profile that describes the desired
`number of columns of each weight, and the desired number of rows of each
`weight.
`The desired number of rows of each weight tells one of ordinary skill
`in the art that there can be at least two rows with different weights, and that's
`all it takes to invalidate claim 12.
`This wasn’t the focus of MacKay. In MacKay's examples all the row
`rates were even, but he's got a clear teaching that the row weights can be
`uneven, and are part of the selection process.
`I think our point is that just making the row weight uneven is a trivial
`detail, the claims are obvious whether the row weights -- and MacKay
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`teaches both regular, all even, and all not even row weights, but that detail of
`claim 12 is clearly met by this teaching that we have on slide 21.
`If there are no questions on that point, I'll go ahead and reserve the
`rest of my time for rebuttal. Thank you.
`JUDGE BARRETT: I have eight minutes left.
`MR. GOLDENBERG: Thank you.
`MR. ROSATO: Good morning. And may it please the Board. Now,
`
`consistent with what I understand to be the preference, we've reserved any
`objections during Counsel's speaking time, to not interrupt. But I do want to
`note an objection to, of course, any new argument that was advanced there,
`and there was quite a bit, particular on this issue of the Tanner graph recited
`in the claim.
`And I'm going to turn, if I can find my slide here, but one of the issues
`identified in the briefing was that while claims 11, and in claim 11 and
`particularly in the claims of the patents that are being challenged, recite
`generating parity bits specifically in accordance with an illustrated, and
`provided Tanner graph. One of the points of criticism with Petitioner's
`petition materials, was there is no mapping at all to that particular Tanner
`graph, that they instead relied on a verbal description of aspects of the
`Tanner graph, that verbal description than referring back to the Tanner graph
`itself.
`And we had pointed out that as part of a petition case and, you know,
`consistent with the statutory requirements for specificity and clarity in the
`stated case, but there is a lack of mapping to the Tanner graph, particularly
`with regard to this -- piece 3 of the verbal description.
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