ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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` FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
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`Page 1
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`P&RO SOLUTIONS GROUP, :
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`INC.,
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` Plaintiff,
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` :
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` :
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`v.
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` : 2:15-cv-1685-RWS
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` Civil Action No.
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`CiM MAINTENANCE, INC. :
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` Defendant. :
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`-------------------------
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` Videotaped Expert Deposition of
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` ALAN T. SHERMAN, Ph.D.
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` Washington, D.C.
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` Tuesday, December 6, 2016
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` 9:03 a.m.
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`Reported by: Donna A. Peterson
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 1
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`
`
` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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` FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
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`Page 1
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`P&RO SOLUTIONS GROUP, :
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`INC.,
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` Plaintiff,
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` :
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` :
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`v.
`
` : 2:15-cv-1685-RWS
`
` Civil Action No.
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`CiM MAINTENANCE, INC. :
`
` Defendant. :
`
`-------------------------
`
` Videotaped Expert Deposition of
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` ALAN T. SHERMAN, Ph.D.
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` Washington, D.C.
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` Tuesday, December 6, 2016
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` 9:03 a.m.
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`Reported by: Donna A. Peterson
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 1
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` Videotaped Expert Deposition of ALAN T.
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`SHERMAN, Ph.D., taken at the law offices of:
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`Page 2
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` BLANK ROME, LLP
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` 1825 Eye Street, N.W.
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` Washington, D.C. 20006
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` Pursuant to Notice, before Donna A.
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`Peterson, Notary Public in and for the District of
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`Columbia.
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 2
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`Page 3
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` ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF:
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` MICHAEL C GREENBAUM, ATTORNEY at LAW
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` AMEYA V. PARADKAR, ATTORNEY at LAW
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` BLANK ROME, LLP
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` 1825 Eye Street, N.W.
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` Washington, D.C. 20006
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` Telephone: (202) 772-5836
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` Greenbaum@BlankRome.com
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` AParadkar@BlankRome.com
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` ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT:
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` ABRAN KEAN, ATTORNEY at LAW
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` ERISE IP
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` Suite 200, 5600 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard
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` Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
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` Telephone: (720) 689-5440
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` abran.kean@eriseIP.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 3
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
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`Page 4
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`ALSO PRESENT: Nhat Pham, Videographer
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`Court Reporter:
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`Donna Peterson
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 4
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` I N D E X
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`Page 5
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`EXAMINATION OF ALAN T. SHERMAN, Ph.D.
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` By Mr. Kean
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` E X H I B I T S
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` PAGE
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` 7
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` (Exhibits attached to the transcript.)
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`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION
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` PAGE
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`Exhibit 1 Declaration of Alan T. Sherman, Ph.D.
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` 6
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`Exhibit 2 U.S. Patent No. 8,209,205, McElroy, et al. 6
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 5
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 6
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
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`between Counsel for Plaintiff and Counsel for the
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`Defendant that this deposition may be taken in
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`shorthand by Donna A. Peterson, and afterwards
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`transcribed into typewriting; and the signature of
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`the witness is expressly reserved.
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` * * * * *
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` (Sherman deposition Exhibits Numbers 1 and
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`2 were marked for identification and attached to the
`
`transcript.)
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` (Deposition commenced at 9:03 a.m.)
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
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`record.
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` Today's date is December 6th, 2016, the
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`time is 9:03. This is the video-recorded deposition
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`of Alan Sherman, in the matter of P&RO Solutions
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`Group, Inc., CiM Maintenance, Inc. This deposition
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`is being held at 1825 Eye Street, Northwest,
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`Washington, D.C.
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` The court reporter is Donna Peterson, my
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`name is Nhat Pham, the videographer. We are with
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`Midwest Litigation Services.
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` Would the attorneys please introduce
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`themselves.
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 6
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` MR. GREENBAUM: Yes. Michael Greenbaum,
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`Page 7
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`and Arun Paradkar, for Plaintiff.
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` MR. KEAN: Good morning.
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` Abe Kean, with Erise IP, on behalf of CiM.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
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`please swear in the witness and proceed.
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`Thereupon,
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` ALAN T. SHERMAN, Ph.D.,
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`was called as a witness by counsel for Defendant, and
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`having been duly sworn by the Notary Public, was
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`examined and testified as follows:
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` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT
`
`BY MR. KEAN:
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Good morning, Dr. Sherman.
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`Good morning.
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`You've been deposed before, is that right?
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`Yes. In patent litigation matters, I've
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`been deposed twice before.
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`Q.
`
`Other than patent litigation matters, have
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`you ever been deposed before?
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`A.
`
`Yes. I was deposed one other time
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`pertaining to my divorce in Maryland.
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`Q.
`
`Okay. Have you ever given a claim
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`construction opinion before?
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`A.
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`I've been involved in patent litigation,
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 7
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 8
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`including claim construction. I'm not exactly
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`certain what you're asking.
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`Q.
`
`I'm just trying to figure out if you've
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`given, offered a claim construction opinion.
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` Maybe stated a different way, have you
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`ever opined on how claim terms should be defined
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`before?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`Yes, I have.
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`How many times?
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`I don't remember exactly. My résumé lists
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`all of my experience that I've noted on that, the
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`cases where I opined on claim construction. I could
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`review that if I had a copy of my résumé.
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`Q.
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`Sure. I don't think that's necessary now,
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`but we can get into that later, if need be.
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` Just some ground rules. Since you've been
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`deposed before, this will be familiar. But you
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`recognize that you are under oath today?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes, I understand.
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`You recognize that to help out the court
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`reporter, verbal answers would be useful. So rather
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`than head shakes or nods, please respond verbally?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes, I understand.
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`If you answer my question, I'll assume you
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`understood it, is that fair?
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 8
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 9
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. So if you have any -- if you
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`misunderstand a question or don't understand
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`something about it or are confused by my question,
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`please just ask and we can clear it up.
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` Is that okay?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. If, any time today, you need a break,
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`please let me know. So long as a question is not
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`pending, we can take a break any time.
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` A. Will do.
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` Q. Is there any reason that you would not be
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`able to testify fully and completely today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. All right. I'm going to hand you a couple
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`of exhibits that have been premarked, Exhibits 1 and
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`2. Please take a brief look at those documents.
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` Do you recognize what has been marked as
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`Exhibit 1?
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` A. Yes I do.
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` Q. What is it?
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` A. That's my declaration --
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` Q. And do yo0u --
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` A. -- on --
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` Q. I'm sorry?
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 9
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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` A. It's my declaration on claim construction.
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` Q. Do you recognize what has been marked as
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`Page 10
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`Exhibit 2?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. What is it?
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` A. It's the '205 patent in this litigation.
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` Q. And today you're planning to opine or
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`prepared to explain your opinions on claim
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`construction and, in particular, your claim
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`construction of the drag and drop term, is that
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`accurate?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are there any opinions that you intend to
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`offer in this case beyond what you've listed in your
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`declaration?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Did you prepare for today's deposition?
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` A. Yes, I did.
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` Q. How did you prepare?
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` A. To date, I've spent a total of about 20
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`hours in a variety of ways. I've read documents,
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`including the '205 patent, the prosecution history
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`and other documents I cited in my declaration. And I
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`had meetings with counsel, and I had a demonstration
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`of the product in question.
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 10
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 11
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` Q. What do you mean by that, a demonstration
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`of the product in question?
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` A. Let me be more precise. I had a
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`demonstration of the functioning of the software that
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`is part of the intrinsic record that I refer to in
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`the declaration.
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` Q. What was the context of that observation?
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` A. The demonstration took place yesterday via
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`a WebEx seminar.
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` Q. And so in the WebEx seminar, you were
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`observing a computer that was executing the source
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`code, is that your understanding?
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` A. Precisely, run by one of the inventors,
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`Sean McElroy.
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` Q. How do you know that the source code that
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`was being executed in that example was the same
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`source code that was submitted with the intrinsic
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`record?
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` A. It is my understanding that that is the
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`case, based on the statements of Sean and based on
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`his declaration. But my job was not to vet the
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`providence of the source code, that was provided to
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`me.
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` Q. What was the purpose of reviewing that
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`software?
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 11
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 12
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` A. The purpose was to enable me to better
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`understand the functionality of the software, to be
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`able to confirm that my understanding of it was
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`consistent with my understanding based on my review
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`of the source code and of the patent, including the
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`screen shots in the patent.
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` Q. Okay. We will probably get into that a
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`little bit more later, but before we do, I want to
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`turn you to your declaration at paragraph three.
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` A. I'm on page three.
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` Q. Paragraph three, please, sir. At the top
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`of page three, I guess.
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` Here, you offer a summary of your opinion,
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`is that right?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are you offering your personal opinion of
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`how dragging and dropping should be interpreted, or
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`are you offering an objective opinion about how
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`someone would see it?
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` A. I'm offering an opinion, based on my
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`expertise as a computer scientist, of the meaning of
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`the phrase in the context of the intrinsic evidence
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`and the other evidence that I've reviewed.
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` Q. So am I understanding you accurately that
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`you're offering your personal opinion of how that
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 12
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 13
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`term should be construed?
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` MR. GREENBAUM: Objection --
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` A. I --
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` MR. GREENBAUM: -- asked and answered.
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` Go ahead, you can --
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` THE WITNESS: That's not what I said. I
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`said I'm offering my opinion as an expert.
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` What do you mean by a personal opinion?
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`BY MR. KEAN:
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` Q. Are you familiar with the term "a person
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`having ordinary skill in the art"?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are you offering an opinion of how a
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`person having ordinary skill in the art would
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`understand the term "drag and drop" to be construed?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Where is that opinion in your declaration?
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` A. It's implicit in -- in the statement to
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`which you refer.
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` Q. Why?
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` A. The context of my opinion is in the
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`context of how an ordinary person skilled of the art
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`would interpret the -- the terms.
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` Q. Would interpret them today, in 2016?
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` A. Would interpret them in the context of
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 13
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 14
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`the -- of the date, which I believe is 2003. Not --
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`not in light of today but in light of the date of
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`question, the priority date.
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` Q. So am I understanding you correctly that
`
`you're offering an opinion about what an objective
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`person having ordinary skill in the art would have
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`understood terms to mean in 2003, is that right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Where is that opinion in your declaration?
`
` MR. GREENBAUM: Objection, asked and
`
`answered.
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` MR. KEAN: You can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: I believe I've already
`
`answered it. I think it's implicit in paragraph
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`three.
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`BY MR. KEAN:
`
` Q. Anywhere else?
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` MR. GREENBAUM: If you need a minute to
`
`look through your declaration, go ahead.
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` THE WITNESS: I believe there's somewhere
`
`where I talk about a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art. I'm not sure what paragraph that is.
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` MR. KEAN: Sure, I think I can help you
`
`there. I think paragraph 17, you mention that.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes, I think that's, in
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`part, what paragraph 17 is talking about.
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`BY MR. KEAN:
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` Q. Can you point to any place in your
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`declaration where you offer the opinion of how a
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`person having ordinary skill in the art in 2003 would
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`have understood terms to mean?
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` A. I think it's implicit throughout the
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`report.
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` Q. Is it fair to say that it's not explicit
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`in the report?
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` A. It appears not to be explicit. I think it
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`is clearly implicit. It certainly was my
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`understanding that in rendering my opinions in
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`declaration, I was doing it in that fashion, how a
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`person of ordinary skill of the art would interpret
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`the terms in the priority date of 2003.
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` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
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`the art in 2003 interpret the terms "drag and drop"
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`any differently than you personally would interpret
`
`the term today in 2016?
`
` A. No, I do not think so.
`
` Q. Why not?
`
` A. Because I think the -- the change in
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`technology over that time period has not changed the
`
`meaning of the terms when interpreted in the context
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 15
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 16
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`of the intrinsic evidence.
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` Q. Please turn to paragraph 18 in your
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`declaration.
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` You mention "my experience, education and
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`knowledge."
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` Is it your understanding that a person
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`having ordinary skill in the art in 2003 would have
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`the same experience, education and knowledge as you
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`do?
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` A. No. I think I have greater knowledge and
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`experience.
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` Q. Would that greater knowledge and
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`experience inform your opinion as to how to construe
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`the term "drag and drop"?
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` A. My knowledge, education and experience
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`helps me understand these terms, but it would not
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`change my opinion as to how a person of ordinary
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`skill of the art would interpret the terms in 2003.
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` Q. You mention in paragraph 18 that you
`
`reviewed "any technical references or literature that
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`demonstrates the state of the art in 2003."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What is the state of the art for the '205
`
`patent in 2003?
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 16
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 17
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` A. I don't understand your question.
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` Q. What are you referring to here when you
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`mention "the state of the art in 2003" in paragraph
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`18 in your declaration?
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` A. I'm referring specifically to items which
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`I list that I reviewed in preparation for the
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`declaration, which includes, for example, Doc
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`Palmer's book on work order scheduling. But it also
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`refers more implicitly to items that I have read and
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`studied as part of my education throughout the period
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`leading through 2003.
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` Q. Did Doc Palmer's book provide a
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`description of the state of the art in 2003?
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` A. I don't understand the question. The
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`state of the art about what?
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` Q. Well, I'm just trying to understand what
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`you mean here when you say "the state of the art" in
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`paragraph 18.
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` A. Doc Palmer's book is specifically about
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`scheduling of work orders. It does not talk more
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`generally about the state of computer science. I
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`have read a great number of articles and books about
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`computer science, so I don't understand exactly what
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`you're asking about.
`
` Q. Is it your understanding that the state of
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 17
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 18
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`the art to consider for the '205 patent is computer
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`science generally?
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` A. Well, this declaration and deposition is
`
`not about the entire '205 patent, it's more narrowly
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`about claim construction and, in particular, the
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`meaning of "drag and drop." And so to answer
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`questions about claim construction and drag and drop,
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`one does not need computer science in general, one
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`needs a more focused aspect of computer science.
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` Q. What would that more focused aspect of
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`computer science be?
`
` A. It would include basic knowledge of
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`software engineering, basic knowledge of graphical
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`interfaces, basic knowledge of relational databases.
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`It doesn't require very much to be able to read a
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`source code, connect it with the intrinsic evidence
`
`and determine its logic to figure out what "drag and
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`drop" means in the context of the '205 patent.
`
` Q. Is it your opinion that there is a
`
`different standard for the level of person having
`
`ordinary skill in the art depending on which claim
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`term you're evaluating?
`
` A. No. I think that a person of ordinary
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`skill of the art as I defined would be capable of
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`interpreting all the -- all of the terms in all of
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 18
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`the claims.
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` Q. The way you've defined it in paragraph 17,
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`you don't say anything about relational databases
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`Page 19
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`there, is that right?
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` A. In paragraph 17?
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` Q. Yes.
`
` A. I don't specifically mention relational
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`database.
`
` Q. So are you amending the definition that
`
`you've provided here in paragraph 17?
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` A. No, I am not. I think it's implicit that
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`a person of ordinary skill of the art would have some
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`minimal knowledge of relational databases.
`
` Q. You know, what that reminds me of a
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`housekeeping question I want to ask you.
`
` Were there any changes or amendments you'd
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`like to make to this declaration?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Going back to paragraph 18, you mention
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`these technical references or literature.
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` What documents specifically are you
`
`referring to there?
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` A. I don't have any specific documents in
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`mind, other than the ones that I cited in the
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`declaration. But my knowledge and experience with
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 20
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`computer science includes my own experience in
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`software engineering, taking courses in software
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`engineering, reading papers about computer science
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`and software engineering, security.
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` Q. Why is security relevant to the '205
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`patent?
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` A. Security per se is -- is not relevant to
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`the '205 patent. It is my area of expertise and
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`there are security issues with databases, so there's
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`some personal connection I have between the database
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`usage in '205 and my knowledge of security.
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` Q. So when you say here in paragraph 18 that
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`your opinions are based on review of technical
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`references or literature, you're not referring to any
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`specific documents there?
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` A. I'm not referring to any specific
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`documents, other than the ones that I mentioned.
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` Q. What type of documents would demonstrate
`
`the state of the art in 2003 that you reference here
`
`in paragraph 18?
`
` A. Articles in research journals, products,
`
`textbooks.
`
` Q. What are products that you can think of
`
`that would demonstrate the state of the art in 2003?
`
` A. There are products that implement
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 20
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`databases. There are a great number of software
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`products. I'm not sure exactly what you're driving
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`at.
`
` Q. Well, you mentioned that products would
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`demonstrate the state of the art in 2003, and I'm
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`just asking you to provide examples of the products
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`that you were referring to when you said that.
`
` A. What I said, I wasn't referring to a
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`specific one, but in general, I think products
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`provide one illustration of the state of the art of a
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`field. So, for example, there are products that
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`maintain database systems, there -- there are
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`products that perform scientific calculations, there
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`are -- there are a great number of products.
`
` Q. Can you give me a specific example of a
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`product that would demonstrate the state of the art
`
`in 2003?
`
` A. One example would be the -- the scientific
`
`package MathLab to perform scientific calculations.
`
` Q. Was that available in 2003?
`
` A. It was.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art have known about MathLab in 2003?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What type of functionality does MathLab
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`provide?
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` A. It -- it enables people to carry out
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`scientific calculations, both symbolically and
`
`numerically.
`
` Q. Does MathLab have drag and drop
`
`functionality?
`
` A. I don't know if it does. I wasn't using
`
`that as an example of drag and drop functionality.
`
` Q. Can you think of other products that would
`
`demonstrate the state of the art in 2003?
`
` A. Microsoft products, Windows operating
`
`system. That -- that would be, for example, a
`
`product that had drag and drop functionality.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art have known about Windows and drag and drop in
`
`2003?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Are you familiar with Microsoft Project?
`
` A. No, I am not.
`
` Q. Are you familiar with a product called
`
`Maximo?
`
` A. Maxima or Maximo?
`
` Q. Maximo.
`
` A. No, I am not.
`
` Q. Are you familiar with relational database
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`www.midwestlitigation.com
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`products that would've demonstrated the state of the
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`Page 23
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`art in 2003?
`
` A. Not in detail.
`
` Q. Can you think of any other products that
`
`would've demonstrated the state of the art in 2003?
`
` A. The -- well, for example, there are a
`
`variety of game products which involve drag and drop
`
`functionality. There are spreadsheet products that
`
`include dragging and dropping, for example, Lotus
`
`Notes, Microsoft Excel spreadsheet.
`
` Q. Did Microsoft Excel spreadsheet include
`
`drag and drop functionality in 2003?
`
` A. It did, yes.
`
` Q. Would a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art have known about Microsoft Excel and the drag and
`
`drop functionality in 2003?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Did Lotus Notes include drag and drop
`
`functionality in 2003?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art have known about Lotus Notes and its drag and
`
`drop functionality in 2003?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In Microsoft Excel, when a user executes a
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`drag and drop function, what happens?
`
` MR. GREENBAUM: Objection. You haven't
`
`demonstrated that he's familiar with Excel or the
`
`operation of Excel.
`
` MR. KEAN: You've got to be careful about
`
`the speaking objections because you can't coach the
`
`witness with objections.
`
` MR. GREENBAUM: I wasn't intending to
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`coach the witness.
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` MR. KEAN: You can object to form.
`
` You can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: In Excel, during a dragging
`
`and dropping operation, the user moves a graph -- a
`
`graphical representation from one source region to a
`
`destination region, resulting in some changes and
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`recalculations of variables.
`
`BY MR. KEAN:
`
` Q. So in the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet that
`
`was available in 2003, if a user executed a drag and
`
`drop functionality, there would be some type of
`
`recalculation that takes place in the software, is
`
`that accurate?
`
` A. Absolutely. Change of values and
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`recalculations.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
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`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 24
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`the art in 2003 have known about those recalculations
`
`that take place upon a drag and drop in Microsoft
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`Page 25
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`Excel?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In Lotus Notes, what happens when a user
`
`executes a drag and drop function?
`
` A. The same type of thing.
`
` Q. And would a person having ordinary skill
`
`in the art in 2003 have also known about the
`
`recalculation that takes place in Lotus Notes when a
`
`drag and drop function is executed?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Are there any other examples you can think
`
`of products that would have demonstrated the state of
`
`the art in 2003?
`
` A. I can list a great number of products.
`
`Yes, I can list more.
`
` Q. Go ahead, please.
`
` A. So, for example, text processing systems,
`
`such as Microsoft Word, the family of LaTeX/Text
`
`Formatting systems.
`
` Q. What were LaTeX/Text Formatting systems?
`
` A. LaTeX is a system for creating documents
`
`with a specialty in mathematical prose. It was
`
`written by Don Knuth, at Stanford. I use it to
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`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`prepare my manuscripts.
`
` Q. Just so the record is clear, how do you
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`Page 26
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`spell LaTex?
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` A. L-A-T-E-X.
`
` Q. And that was a product that was available
`
`in 2003?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Did the LaTeX product include drag and
`
`drop functionality?
`
` A. There are front ends to LaTex that do.
`
`Not all versions of LaTeX do or did.
`
` Q. Would a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art in 2003 have been aware of computer user
`
`interfaces?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. You mentioned Excel.
`
` Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art in 2003 have been familiar with macros that
`
`allow a user to program Excel?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Would a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art in 2003 have been aware of ways to customize a
`
`user interface in a product like Excel?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`the art have been able to program user interfaces
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`generally in 2003?
`
` A. What do you mean by "program"?
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art have been able to write software that could
`
`create a customized user interface in 2003?
`
` A. If they didn't have that detailed
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`capability, they could certainly learn it in due
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`speed.
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` Q. So you mentioned the LaTeX product.
`
` Are there any other products that would
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`demonstrate the state of the art in 2003?
`
` A. Yes, I can think of other products.
`
` Q. Would you please articulate them for us?
`
` A. For example, the RSA company had a suite
`
`of software for implementing cryptographic algorithms
`
`called BSAFE.
`
` Q. And what did the BSAFE do?
`
` A. It provided a library of functions that
`
`implemented useful cryptographic operations.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art have been familiar with that product in 2003?
`
` A. Probably.
`
` Q. Are there any other examples that you can
`
`think of?
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 27
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`
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`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
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`Page 28
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` A. Game software.
`
` Q. What do you mean by "game software"?
`
` A. Software that implemented games that
`
`people play.
`
` Q. Do you mean like video games?
`
` A. That would be one type. Not all games are
`
`video games.
`
` Q. What other type of games are there?
`
` A. There are simulation games, there are
`
`competitive games. There -- there are a variety of
`
`games.
`
` Q. Can you give me specific examples of games
`
`that would have been relevant to the state of the art
`
`for the '205 patent in 2003?
`
` A. There are, for example, games that play
`
`chess, and some of these games had graphical user
`
`interfaces that included dragging and dropping
`
`functionality.
`
` Q. Would a person having ordinary skill in
`
`the art have known of a chess game that included drag
`
`and drop functionality in 2003?
`
` A. Probably.
`
` Q. In a chess game that includes drag and
`
`drop functionality in 2003, is there any
`
`recalculation that takes place when a user executes a
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`CiM Ex. 1002 Page 28
`
`
`
`ALAN T. SHERMAN PH.D. 12/6/2016
`
`Page 29
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`drag and drop?
`
` A. Absolutely.
`
` Q. What type of recalculation is there?
`
` A. Well, for example, in chess, a typical
`
`application of dragging and dropping would be to move
`
`a piece from one lo -- from one square on the
`
`chessboard to another square on the chessboard by
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`moving a graphical representation of the piece from a
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`source square to
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