Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`-----------------------------------X
`
`APPLE, INC.,
`
` Petitioner, Case IPR 2017-00222
`
` -v- Patent 8,243,723
`
`UNILOC USA, INC. and UNILOC
`
`LUXEMBOURG, S.A.,
`
` Patent Owner
`
`-----------------------------------X.
`
`ADDITIONAL CAPTIONS ON FOLLOWING PAGES
`
` Deposition of LEONARD J. FORYS
`
` Washington, D.C.
`
` Tuesday, January 9, 2018
`
` 10:30 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`
`Gail L. Inghram Verbano,
`
`BA, CRR, CLR, RDR, CSR-CA (No. 8635)
`
`Job No. 11037
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`1
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 1
`
`
`
`1/9/2018
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`-----------------------------------X
`
`APPLE, INC.,
`
` Petitioner, Case IPR 2017-00222
`
` -v- Patent 8,243,723
`
`UNILOC USA, INC. and UNILOC
`
`LUXEMBOURG, S.A.,
`
` Patent Owner
`
`-----------------------------------X.
`
`ADDITIONAL CAPTIONS ON FOLLOWING PAGES
`
` Deposition of LEONARD J. FORYS
`
` Washington, D.C.
`
` Tuesday, January 9, 2018
`
` 10:30 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`
`Gail L. Inghram Verbano,
`
`BA, CRR, CLR, RDR, CSR-CA (No. 8635)
`
`Job No. 11037
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`1
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 1
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`--------------------------------X
`
`APPLE, INC.,
`
` Petitioner, Case IPR 2017-00221
`
` -v- Patent 7,535,890
`
`UNILOC USA, INC. and UNILOC
`
`LUXEMBOURG, S.A.,
`
` Patent Owner
`
`--------------------------------X.
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`--------------------------------X
`
`APPLE, INC.,
`
` Petitioner, Case IPR 2017-00225
`
` -v- Patent 8,995,433
`
`UNILOC USA, INC. and UNILOC
`
`LUXEMBOURG, S.A.,
`
` Patent Owner
`
`--------------------------------X.
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`tobyfeldman.com
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` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`2
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 2
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`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
` Deposition of LEONARD J. FORYS
`
` January 9, 2018
`
` 10:30 a.m.
`
` Deposition of LEONARD J. FORYS, held
`
` at the offices of STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN &
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` FOX, PLLC, 1100 New York Avenue, Suite 600,
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` Washington, D.C. pursuant to notice, the
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` proceedings being recorded stenographically by
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` GAIL INGHRAM VERBANO, Notary Public, Registered
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` Diplomate Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
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` Certified Shorthand Reporter-CA (No. 8635).
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`tobyfeldman.com
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` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`3
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 3
`
`
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`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`For Apple, Inc.:
`
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX, PLLC
`
` 1100 New York Avenue, Suite 600
`
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
` 202.371.2600
`
` BY: JASON EISENBERG, ESQ.
`
` jeisenberg@skgf.com
`
` BY: TRENT W. MERRELL, ESQ.
`
` tmerrell@skgf.com
`
` BY: AMIRALI SHARIFI, ESQ.
`
` asharifi@skgf.com
`
` BY: STEVE PAPPAS, ESQ.
`
` spappas@skgf.com
`
`For Facebook, WhatsApp and Snap:
`
` COOLEY, LLP
`
` 777 6th Street, NW, Suite 1000
`
` Washington, DC, 20001
`
` 202.842.7837
`
` BY: LISA FULLER SCHWIER, PhD, ESQ.
`
` lschwier@cooley.com
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`tobyfeldman.com
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` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`4
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 4
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
`For the Patent Holder:
`
` ETHERIDGE LAW GROUP
`
` 2600 E. Southlake Boulevard
`
` Suite 120-324
`
` Southlake, Texas 76092
`
` 469.401.2659
`
` BY: BRETT MANGRUM, ESQ.
`
` brett@etheridgelaw.com.com
`
` (Via telephone)
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`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`5
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 5
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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` Washington, D.C.
`
` Tuesday, January 9, 2018; 10:30 a.m.
`
` - - -
`
` LEONARD J. FORYS,
`
`after having been first duly sworn or
`
`affirmed to testify to the truth, was
`
`examined and testified as follows:
`
` - - -
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` MR. MANGRUM: So we are now
`
` on the record. This is Brett
`
` Mangrum representing the Patent
`
` Owner, the Uniloc entities; and
`
` probably should do announcements
`
` around the table.
`
` MR. EISENBERG: We have Jason
`
` Eisenberg representing Apple,
`
` Inc.; and with me are Trent
`
` Merrell, Amirali Sharifi, and
`
` Steve Pappas from Sterne Kessler.
`
` MS. SCHWIER: And Lisa
`
` Schwier from Cooley representing
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`6
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 6
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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` Facebook, WhatsApp and Snap.
`
` MR. MANGRUM: Well, I
`
` appreciate everyone braving the
`
` weather. I understand that -- is
`
` it an ice storm that's out there
`
` right now?
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Yes, but
`
` luckily it warmed up quickly.
`
` Last night was like a slick of ice
`
` everywhere, though.
`
`BY MR. MANGRUM:
`
` Q. Dr. Forys -- go ahead.
`
` A. No, go ahead.
`
` Q. I appreciate you making
`
`yourself available to take the time.
`
`You understand you're here to discuss,
`
`among other things, the declaration you
`
`submitted in conjunction with the
`
`Petitioner's Reply?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And I'm getting a little bit
`
`of delay. That's fine. We'll just
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`7
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 7
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`work together. Maybe that will make a
`
`cleaner record, the fact that after I
`
`speak a question, I think there's a
`
`delay in the audio coming to you.
`
` For the record, would you
`
`please state your full name and mailing
`
`address.
`
` A. Yes; my name is Leonard John
`
`Forys, F-O-R-Y-S. I reside at 823
`
`Holmdel Road, H-O-L-M-D-E-L, in the
`
`town called Holmdel, same spelling, New
`
`Jersey.
`
` Q. Thank you.
`
` MR. MANGRUM: And Jason, for
`
` logistics on this deposition, we
`
` might need to go off record and
`
` print out a few documents. I'm
`
` curious if you can facilitate that
`
` on your end.
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Absolutely.
`
` And we have three clean notebooks
`
` of the records here next to him.
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`8
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 8
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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` If you have additional documents
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` you need to email us, just let me
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` know and we'll take care of it.
`
` MR. MANGRUM: It sounds like,
`
` pursuant to our email leading up
`
` to this deposition, we talked
`
` about that, and my guess is you
`
` probably already have the
`
` documents that I need. I'm not --
`
` I won't be pulling up any exhibits
`
` that should come as a surprise.
`
` To the extent you have it already
`
` there, great. To the extent we
`
` need to go off record and print
`
` them out, I appreciate your
`
` willingness to facilitate.
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Absolutely.
`
` MR. MANGRUM: Dr. Forys --
`
` great. Thanks, Jason.
`
`BY MR. MANGRUM:
`
` Q. Dr. Forys, I'd like to start
`
`with what we've been referring to for
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`9
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 9
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`the record as "the '890 patent." This
`
`is US Patent No. 7,535,890.
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Okay.
`
` THE WITNESS: So I have the
`
` documents.
`
`BY MR. MANGRUM:
`
` Q. And for purposes of this
`
`deposition -- go ahead.
`
` A. I have my documents here.
`
` Q. Okay. Great. And for
`
`purposes of this deposition, as before,
`
`I'm going to refer to this document as
`
`"the '890 patent."
`
` A. Fine.
`
` Q. I understand that it's -- the
`
`version you're using is probably the
`
`Bates-marked one that has "Exhibit
`
`1001," I believe, on the bottom
`
`right-hand corner. Can you just
`
`confirm that?
`
` A. Yes, it does.
`
` Q. I'd like to have you turn
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`10
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 10
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`with me in that document to the last
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`several pages where the claims are
`
`listed. To be more specific, let's
`
`first go to Column 25.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Do you see where there's a
`
`claim numbered Claim 14?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And do you see there are --
`
`there's a preamble and then two
`
`indented paragraphs.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. So in that paragraph,
`
`it looks like the first one appears
`
`from lines 24 to 29; and the second one
`
`looks like it appears from line 30 to
`
`line 39.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. So I want to ask you
`
`about two terms appearing in those two
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
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` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
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`Certified WOB
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`
`11
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 11
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`paragraphs. The first looks like it
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`appears on line 24 of Column 25: "A
`
`client connected to a local network."
`
`And the second one appears on line 30:
`
`"A server connected to the external
`
`network."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And it looks like the
`
`external network first appears -- I
`
`have to look back. I'm going to ask
`
`you some questions just about those two
`
`terms, "local network" and "external
`
`network."
`
` Is it your understanding that
`
`those terms also appear in the other
`
`claims of the '890 patent?
`
` A. I believe so. I have to look
`
`at it, but probably.
`
` Yes, I see Claim 2 has a
`
`local network in it. So certainly
`
`"local" appears.
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
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`
`Certified WOB
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`
`12
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 12
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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` I see Claim 7 has "external
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`network" in it. So, yes, just from my
`
`brief glance, it appears that those
`
`terms appear elsewhere.
`
` Q. Yes, okay. I want to ask you
`
`just some questions about your
`
`understanding of "local network" and
`
`"external network."
`
` Do you recall offering
`
`opinions with regard to those terms?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Let me ask you --
`
`first of all, just back up a step.
`
` Do you know what a local area
`
`network, or LAN, is?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And what is it?
`
` A. I discussed this in both my
`
`declarations, if you want me to read
`
`that or just do it off the cuff?
`
` Q. However you'd like to answer.
`
`I don't want to tell you how to answer.
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`13
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 13
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`I'm just curious, if you have a general
`
`understanding of what a LAN is, you can
`
`state that for the record.
`
` A. So you just want me to do it
`
`from my general understanding then, not
`
`what I wrote?
`
` Q. That's -- that would be fine.
`
` A. Generally speaking, if I
`
`recall from what I wrote, is that a --
`
`generally speaking, a LAN serves a
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`geographically small area -- a
`
`building, perhaps a college campus --
`
`and uses certain kinds of protocols
`
`that are useful in small geographical
`
`areas, such as things like Ethernet,
`
`for example; and uses routers and
`
`bridges and different pieces of
`
`technology to make them either wireless
`
`or wired, as the case may be.
`
` Q. Do you understand -- is it
`
`your understanding a local -- I'm going
`
`to call it a LAN, just for the sake of
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`14
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 14
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
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`the record. But for the court
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`reporter, "LAN" is an acronym for local
`
`area network.
`
` Is it your understanding that
`
`a LAN is an example of a local network
`
`within the context of the claims?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I want you to -- I want to
`
`loop back for a second to a general
`
`description of this case, a college
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`campus environment, where you would
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`have like an Internet-based local area
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`network, or LAN, which is addressed by
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`local addresses and it's deliberately
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`kept separate from the Internet, like a
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`firewall.
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` Would you classify that LAN
`
`as a local network within the context
`
`of the claims?
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: It could be. I
`
` don't think it's defined
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`15
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 15
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` necessarily in the claims, but it
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` could be.
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`BY MR. MANGRUM:
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` Q. And why could it be?
`
` A. Because geographically small
`
`area, and a college campus, and you
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`talk about intranet, I believe. Those
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`words are generally associated with a
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`LAN.
`
` Q. And my question was: Would
`
`you classify that LAN as a local
`
`network within the context of the
`
`claims?
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: It could be,
`
` yes.
`
`BY MR. MANGRUM:
`
` Q. And just so I understand your
`
`answer, is your answer "it could be"
`
`because -- because it's a LAN, or it
`
`could be for other reasons?
`
` A. It could be because it's --
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`16
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 16
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`it could be -- I don't have to use a
`
`LAN. You can use other things as well.
`
`But if you're using a local area
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`network with a certain topologies and
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`certain connections and certain
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`protocols that's usually associated
`
`with a LAN, that would be a local
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`network.
`
` Q. Could you think of an example
`
`where it would be not a local network,
`
`what I just described?
`
` A. You could -- again, you have
`
`a college campus, if it's quite large,
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`you could have it as being a WAN, a
`
`wide area network, using different
`
`protocols. Just -- stupid example, if
`
`you want -- a simple example; not
`
`stupid.
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` You can make telephone
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`connections, and that would not be a
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`LAN; that would be a regular telephone
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`connection between computers or
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`17
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 17
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`something like that. That's -- in
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`fact, that certainly existed in the
`
`early days. That's the way you would
`
`connect computers, using telephone
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`lines.
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` So -- and I wouldn't consider
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`that to be a LAN in that case,
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`necessarily, because you might go off
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`to a switch -- excuse me.
`
` Q. Go ahead. You might go off
`
`to a switch? Sorry.
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` A. You may go off to a switch 20
`
`miles away with your telephone line and
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`then come back. And that's the way --
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`that is a way it could be done. And I
`
`think that was common -- that was
`
`common in the early days, yeah.
`
` Q. And would you consider that
`
`type of network that you just described
`
`a local network within the context of
`
`the claims?
`
` A. I don't know. I don't know
`
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`
`18
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 18
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`if the network -- again, I don't know
`
`if the patent defines what it is. I
`
`have to take a look at that.
`
` Q. We'll get to that.
`
` A. It's certainly not a LAN. It
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`could be a local network. It's not
`
`defined.
`
` Q. Earlier you mentioned in your
`
`answer or one of your prior answers the
`
`term "WAN," was that a wide area
`
`network?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And if -- going back to our
`
`college campus example, if the college
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`campus had implemented its Internet via
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`a WAN, a wide area network, would you
`
`consider that to be a local network
`
`within the context of the claims?
`
` A. I don't know. Again, I don't
`
`think the '890 patent defines it.
`
`Possibly, but I think the examples they
`
`give were WAN examples.
`
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`19
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 19
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`Leonard J. Forys
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` But, again, I don't recall
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`that. If you let me look at my
`
`declaration and the patent, I can give
`
`you a more definitive answer. Right
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`now I'm just doing things by memory.
`
` Q. Okay. Well, let's take a
`
`look at -- you said you had it in front
`
`of you; correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Why don't we take a look at a
`
`specific statement in the patent. If
`
`you turn to Column 6 -- I'm turning
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`there myself, so give me a second.
`
`Lines 59 to 65.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Actually, if you look up at
`
`the top of that paragraph at line 40,
`
`do you understand this paragraph to be
`
`a description corresponding to Figure
`
`2?
`
` A. I believe so, yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And maybe if you put
`
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`20
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 20
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`your finger on Figure 2, so you can
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`flip back and forth between the
`
`description and the figure itself, that
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`might be helpful for us.
`
` A. Sure.
`
` Q. So it is your understanding
`
`that Figure 2 of the '890 patent fits a
`
`local network within the context of the
`
`claims?
`
` A. They have something in Figure
`
`2 that's labeled 204 that's called a
`
`"local IP network."
`
` Q. And so is it your
`
`understanding that local IP network 204
`
`is a local network within the context
`
`of the claims?
`
` A. It appears to be. It's
`
`labeled that way.
`
` Q. And so there's a description
`
`of local IP network 204 that appears on
`
`those specific lines I cited to you.
`
`Scroll down through that paragraph to
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`21
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 21
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`1/9/2018
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`lines 59, 60 and 61.
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. And it says, "The network 204
`
`may be a local area network," and then
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`it offers the acronym LAN -- "a wide
`
`area network" -- again acronym WAN --
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`"or the like, which supports both wired
`
`and wireless devices."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Is it your
`
`understanding that that description, at
`
`a minimum, states that what's shown as
`
`element 204 could be a LAN, a WAN or
`
`the like?
`
` A. That's what it says. And why
`
`they label it as "local," I don't
`
`understand that part, but that's what
`
`they did.
`
` Q. Is it your understanding that
`
`a WAN could also be considered a local
`
`area network -- I'm sorry -- a WAN
`
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`Certified WOB
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`
`22
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 22
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`1/9/2018
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`could be considered a local network
`
`within the context of the claims?
`
` A. Certainly the way that this
`
`description of the specification
`
`relates to it -- I would not have
`
`called it that, but they are calling it
`
`that, yes.
`
` Q. Okay. How does a LAN differ
`
`from a WAN, just in the general sense?
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: Typically,
`
` it's -- it's -- and I said before,
`
` typically it's geographic
`
` considerations; and also different
`
` kinds of protocols are typically
`
` used.
`
`BY MR. MANGRUM:
`
` Q. Are WANs sometimes designated
`
`as a collection of LAN?
`
` A. They could be but need not
`
`be. For example, a telephone network
`
`is a WAN, but my phone is not a local
`
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`23
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 23
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`1/9/2018
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`area network. So it can be, but not
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`necessarily.
`
` Q. And you mentioned protocols,
`
`there may be a difference in protocols.
`
`Can you add some color to that answer,
`
`explaining what different protocols
`
`might be used for a LAN versus a WAN?
`
` MR. EISENBERG: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: Sure. A LAN,
`
` for example, you could use
`
` Ethernet. You can use 802.11b,
`
` the wireless protocols, to access
`
` a wireless router.
`
` Whereas a WAN could be
`
` regular telephony protocols.
`
` Could be IP network protocols. It
`
` could be a variety of things. But
`
` it's usually things -- a LAN is
`
` usually limited by geographical
`
` distance. Ethernet has a
`
` geographical limitation as to how
`
` far stations can be from each
`
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`24
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 24
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`1/9/2018
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` other.
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`BY MR. MANGRUM:
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` Q. Do you know offhand what that
`
`is?
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` A. I think it's kilometers, one
`
`or two kilometers. It's not very far.
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`There's extenders and there's all these
`
`additional things you could put on it
`
`to extend, but generally, it's in the
`
`kilometer range.
`
` Q. And the protocol, the
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`Ethernet protocol and the 802 -- I'm
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`going to misquote you; I wasn't able to
`
`write down quickly enough what you
`
`said.
`
` You mentioned an Ethernet
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`protocol. Let's start there. Can that
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`be implemented in a WAN-type network as
`
`well?
`
` A. It could be part of a WAN
`
`network, but you would think -- but,
`
`again, if you're looking at the wide
`
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`25
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 25
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`distances of tens of miles and hundreds
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`of miles, which a WAN could accomplish,
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`that would be inappropriate, because
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`the protocol just doesn't allow it, for
`
`technical reasons. So you could use it
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`for a part but not the entire path.
`
` Q. And the 802 same question:
`
`That 802 protocol you mentioned.
`
` A. Yes. Again, that's the same
`
`kind of thing. It's usually limited by
`
`distance because of the fact that
`
`you're talking about high-frequency
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`radio waves and the propagation,
`
`attenuation -- the signal dies off
`
`rather quickly with distance, let me
`
`put it that way.
`
` So, again, you're talking
`
`sometimes only hundreds of meters.
`
`Again, there are extenders and ways of
`
`extending that, but you're still
`
`talking a relatively small geographical
`
`area.
`
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`26
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 26
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`1/9/2018
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` Q. Got it. Okay. Let me ask
`
`you now about how you distinguish a
`
`LAN-type network from the Internet.
`
`Let me ask it in this way.
`
` Is the public Internet
`
`technically classified as a LAN, or
`
`local area network?
`
` A. The public network, with a
`
`capital I, is typically not considered
`
`to be a LAN. It could be -- components
`
`of it, parts of it could be a LAN but,
`
`generally speaking, it encompasses
`
`distances as large as tens of thousands
`
`of miles.
`
` Q. So it's correct to say that
`
`the Internet in general -- speaking of
`
`the Internet, capital I, so that's the
`
`worldwide web -- so let me rephrase the
`
`question. I just want to get in
`
`context what I mean by "Internet."
`
` So thinking of the Internet
`
`as a whole, it is not technically
`
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`27
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 27
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`classified as a LAN?
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` MR. EISENBERG: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: As a whole.
`
` Parts of it may be, but as a
`
` whole, it is not.
`
`BY MR. MANGRUM:
`
` Q. I'll have you turn now with
`
`me in the same patent, Exhibit 1001,
`
`which in this matter is the '890
`
`patent -- when I say "this matter," I
`
`believe it's the '221 matter.
`
` Turn with me to Figure 6 of
`
`that patent.
`
` A. Yep.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you notice in
`
`Figure 6 that there are -- at least in
`
`that Box 510, there are some reference
`
`numbers that are also included in
`
`Figure 2?
`
` A. Let me just check that to
`
`make sure. Yes. I see 206 and 208,
`
`which are IVM clients, both in Figure 2
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`28
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`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 28
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`
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`Leonard J. Forys
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`1/9/2018
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`1
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`and in Figure 6.
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` Q. Do you see the local
`
`server -- the local IVM server 202? Do
`
`you also see that appearing in Figure
`
`2?
`
` A. Yes, I see it to the right
`
`side of Figure 2. Yes.
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` Q. And then there's a -- an
`
`element 102, interconnecting Box 510
`
`and Box 502 in Figure 6.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you understand element 102
`
`to refer to the Internet?
`
` A. That's what the figure says
`
`that it is. And, again, it's hard to
`
`tell because it's all capitalized.
`
`Typically, the public Internet would
`
`have a capital I and lower case other
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`letters. I'd have to read a
`
`description, but I presume so.
`
` Q. Let me help you with that
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`29
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 29
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
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`answer. There is a description of
`
`Figure 6 -- let's turn there. I'll
`
`draw your attention to Column 21, lines
`
`49 to 53.
`
` A. Column 21 you said; right?
`
` Q. Yes.
`
` A. Yes. It's clear in this case
`
`that it is the public Internet, because
`
`it has a capital I and then lower case
`
`the rest of the letters. So that
`
`typically refers to the public
`
`Internet.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you see element 102
`
`in Figure 2?
`
` A. No, it does not appear there.
`
` Q. Do you understand that the
`
`reference to "the Internet" appears to
`
`be outside of what's shown in Figure 2?
`
` A. It's not clear. It's not
`
`clear that local IP network 204 could
`
`not be the Internet. It just doesn't
`
`say.
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`30
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 30
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
`1
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` Q. Well, there is a -- if you
`
`look -- let me help you with this
`
`answer by rephrasing my question.
`
` Do you remember when you
`
`pointed to element 202 appearing on the
`
`right-hand side of Figure 2?
`
` A. Yeah, I see that.
`
` Q. And then Element 202 in
`
`Figure 6 appears to be communicating
`
`with the same Box 502.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And it's communicating over
`
`what's identified as Reference 102, or
`
`the Internet.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes, I do. But that doesn't
`
`mean that 204 is not the Internet as
`
`well. That's not stated.
`
` Q. Well, do you see where -- do
`
`you see where the clients in Figure 6
`
`are communicating with the local IVM
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`31
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 31
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
`1
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`server?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And according to Figure 2,
`
`the clients communicate with the local
`
`IVM server over what network?
`
` A. I just gave some examples.
`
`And I believe the -- hold on for a
`
`second here.
`
` For example, I believe, that
`
`Claim 2 identifies the network as a
`
`local network, but Claim 1 does not.
`
`So I think that -- I think it's left
`
`open. I think it could be a LAN, and
`
`it could be other things as well. It's
`
`just not stated.
`
` (Simultaneous cross-talk.)
`
` Q. -- the elements 206, the IVM
`
`client, 206 and 208.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In Figure 2.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. They communicate -- so
`
`email@tobyfeldman.com
`tobyfeldman.com
`
` Toby Feldman, Inc.
` NATIONWIDE SERVICES
`
`Certified WOB
`(800) 246.4950
`
`32
`
`Apple v. Uniloc, IPR2017-00221, -222, -225
`Uniloc's Exhibit 2004, page 32
`
`
`
`Leonard J. Forys
`
`1/9/2018
`
`1
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`elements -- let's start, first of all,
`
`just with 208, to make it even simpler.
`
` So element 208, IVM client,
`
`that communicates with local IVM server
`
`over what network?
`
` A. A network. It could be a
`
`LAN. It could be a WAN.
`
` Q. Could you identify by
`
`reference number from Figure 2 what
`
`network IVM client communicates with
`
`local IVM server
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