·1· · · · · · U.S. PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· ·-----------------------------x
`· · ·EMERSON ELECTRIC CO.,· · · · :
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :
`· · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · : Inter Partes Review
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :
`· · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · :· · · Case No.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :· ·IPR2017-00216
`· · ·SIPCO, LLC,· · · · · · · · · :
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :· ·U.S. Patent No.
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· :· · ·8,031,732
`·8· ·-----------------------------x
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · Wednesday, August 9, 2017
`
`11· ·Examination of:
`
`12· · · · · · · · STEPHEN B. HEPPE, D.Sc.,
`
`13· ·the witness, was called for examination by counsel
`
`14· ·for the Patent Owner, pursuant to notice,
`
`15· ·commencing at 9:22 a.m., at the law offices of
`
`16· ·Ropes & Gray LLP, 2099 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW,
`
`17· ·Washington, D.C. 20006, before Dawn A. Jaques,
`
`18· ·CSR, CLR, and Notary Public in and for the
`
`19· ·District of Columbia.
`
`20
`· · · · · ·Olender Reporting Litigation Solutions
`21· · · · ·1100 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 810
`· · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.· 20036
`22· · · · · · · · · · ·(202) 898-1108
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·2· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· ·-----------------------------x
`· · ·EMERSON ELECTRIC CO.,· · · · :
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :
`· · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · : Inter Partes Review
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :
`· · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · :· · · Case No.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :· ·IPR2017-00216
`· · ·SIPCO, LLC,· · · · · · · · · :
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :· ·U.S. Patent No.
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· :· · ·8,031,732
`·8· ·-----------------------------x
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · Wednesday, August 9, 2017
`
`11· ·Examination of:
`
`12· · · · · · · · STEPHEN B. HEPPE, D.Sc.,
`
`13· ·the witness, was called for examination by counsel
`
`14· ·for the Patent Owner, pursuant to notice,
`
`15· ·commencing at 9:22 a.m., at the law offices of
`
`16· ·Ropes & Gray LLP, 2099 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW,
`
`17· ·Washington, D.C. 20006, before Dawn A. Jaques,
`
`18· ·CSR, CLR, and Notary Public in and for the
`
`19· ·District of Columbia.
`
`20
`· · · · · ·Olender Reporting Litigation Solutions
`21· · · · ·1100 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 810
`· · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.· 20036
`22· · · · · · · · · · ·(202) 898-1108
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
`
`·2· ·On behalf of the Petitioner:
`
`·3· · · · · STEVEN PEPE, ESQ.
`
`·4· · · · · Ropes & Gray LLP
`
`·5· · · · · 1211 Avenue of the Americas
`
`·6· · · · · New York, New York· 10036-8704
`
`·7· · · · · PHONE:· ·212-596-9046
`
`·8· · · · · FAX:· · ·212-728-2660
`
`·9· · · · · EMAIL:· ·steven.pepe@ropesgray.com
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12· ·On behalf of the Patent Owner:
`
`13· · · · · Gregory J. Gonsalves, Ph.D., J.D., ESQ.
`
`14· · · · · Gonsalves Law Firm
`
`15· · · · · 2216 Beacon Lane
`
`16· · · · · Falls Church, Virginia· 22043
`
`17· · · · · PHONE:· 571-419-7252
`
`18· · · · · EMAIL:· Gonsalves@gonsalveslawfirm.com
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·I-N-D-E-X
`
`·2· ·WITNESS:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE:
`
`·3· ·STEPHEN B. HEPPE, D.Sc.
`
`·4· · · · · Examination by Mr. Gonsalves· · · · · · ·4
`
`·5
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
`
`·7· ·EXHIBIT NUMBER:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE:
`
`·8· ·Exhibit 2007· ·Wikipedia page on "Channel
`· · · · · · · · · · (communications)· ·.........· · 85
`·9
`
`10· · · · · ·** NOTE:· Original Exhibit 2007 was
`
`11· · · · · · · retained by Mr. Gonsalves.· **
`
`12
`
`13· · · · ·PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERRED TO
`
`14· · · · · · · ·EXHIBIT NUMBER:· · ·PAGE:
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · ·1001· ·.....· · 20
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · ·1002· ·.....· · 39
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · ·1004· ·.....· · ·5
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · ·1005· ·.....· · ·6
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · ·1011· ·.....· · 47
`
`20· · · · · · · · · · ·1012· ·.....· · 77
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · ·1014· ·.....· · 59
`
`22
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`·2· ·Whereupon,
`
`·3· · · · · · · · STEPHEN B. HEPPE, D.Sc.,
`
`·4· · · · · was called as a witness, after having been
`
`·5· · · · · first duly sworn by the Notary Public, was
`
`·6· · · · · examined and testified as follows:
`
`·7· · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT OWNER
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · Dr. Heppe, can you state your name and
`
`10· ·address for the record, please?
`
`11· · · · · A· · Sure.· It's Stephen Heppe, H-E-P-P-E,
`
`12· ·and my address is 1011 Hutson Road -- Hutson is
`
`13· ·H-U-T-S-O-N Road -- in Hood River, Oregon.· Zip is
`
`14· ·97031.
`
`15· · · · · Q· · Do you understand that you are under
`
`16· ·oath to testify truthfully?
`
`17· · · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`18· · · · · Q· · I'm going to ask you some questions
`
`19· ·today, and if you do not understand a question,
`
`20· ·will you let me know?
`
`21· · · · · A· · I will.
`
`22· · · · · Q· · Is there anything that would prevent
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·you from testifying accurately today?
`
`·2· · · · · A· · No.
`
`·3· · · · · Q· · Are you taking any medications for any
`
`·4· ·ailments that would interfere with your ability to
`
`·5· ·testify accurately?
`
`·6· · · · · A· · No.
`
`·7· · · · · Q· · What do you understand your role to be
`
`·8· ·in this matter?
`
`·9· · · · · A· · I was retained as an expert to
`
`10· ·consider certain claims in the '732 patent in
`
`11· ·relation to some prior art references, and offer
`
`12· ·opinions on anticipation and obviousness.
`
`13· · · · · Q· · I'm handing you what's been marked as
`
`14· ·1004, which is your declaration.
`
`15· · · · · A· · Okay.· Thank you.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Thank you, sir.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`18· · · · · Q· · I assume that you've reviewed your
`
`19· ·declaration before coming to this deposition
`
`20· ·today?
`
`21· · · · · A· · I have.
`
`22· · · · · Q· · As you sit here today, is there
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·anything that you would like to clarify or restate
`
`·2· ·in your declaration?
`
`·3· · · · · A· · No.
`
`·4· · · · · Q· · I'm handing you what's been marked as
`
`·5· ·Exhibit 1005.· Do you recognize this exhibit?
`
`·6· · · · · A· · I do.
`
`·7· · · · · Q· · What is it?
`
`·8· · · · · A· · This is my CV.
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · As you sit here today, is there
`
`10· ·anything that you would like to correct in your
`
`11· ·CV?
`
`12· · · · · A· · This one actually looks like it's a
`
`13· ·little bit old.· I think I updated the first line
`
`14· ·to reflect 40 years of technical and managerial
`
`15· ·experience instead of 35 years of technical and
`
`16· ·managerial experience.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Since this one does appear to be a
`
`18· ·little bit older, if you flip to page 7, you will
`
`19· ·see a list of patents where I'm at least one of
`
`20· ·the named inventors.· I can't give you the
`
`21· ·specifics, but I suspect that there's some
`
`22· ·additional patents, and if you search for those at
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·the Patent and Trademark Office, you could get the
`
`·2· ·full list.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·Other than that, I think it's
`
`·4· ·substantially correct.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · And how were you retained for this
`
`·6· ·matter?
`
`·7· · · · · A· · Well, we've talked about this in
`
`·8· ·previous depositions.· At some point in the past,
`
`·9· ·I was contacted by either Don Jackson or
`
`10· ·Jay Berquist in regard to the general litigation,
`
`11· ·I guess you would say, between Emerson and SIPCO
`
`12· ·and IP CO.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· I'm just going to caution
`
`14· ·the witness to make sure you don't disclose any
`
`15· ·privileged communication between you and Emerson.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Right, thank you.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·That was several years ago.· I don't
`
`18· ·recall the specifics, but after discussing the
`
`19· ·issues in general, I agreed to assist.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`21· · · · · Q· · Approximately how many IPRs have you
`
`22· ·worked for Emerson?
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A· · Well, I can't give you an exact
`
`·2· ·number.
`
`·3· · · · · Q· · Can you give me an approximate number?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · On the order of ten, I suppose, but I
`
`·5· ·can't give you a precise number.
`
`·6· · · · · Q· · And what is your billing rate for this
`
`·7· ·matter?
`
`·8· · · · · A· · $350 per hour.
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · And roughly how much have you billed
`
`10· ·so far on this matter?
`
`11· · · · · A· · I don't recall.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · Can you give me an estimate?
`
`13· · · · · A· · No, I can't.
`
`14· · · · · Q· · How much, approximately, have you
`
`15· ·billed on all matters for which you are brought
`
`16· ·for Emerson against SIPCO or IP CO.?
`
`17· · · · · A· · Again, I can't give you a number.
`
`18· · · · · Q· · Can you approximate it?
`
`19· · · · · A· · No.
`
`20· · · · · Q· · How many times have you been deposed
`
`21· ·before today?
`
`22· · · · · A· · Again, I can't give you an exact
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·number.· This would be extremely rough, so very
`
`·2· ·imprecise.· Perhaps three dozen, maybe 30 to 40
`
`·3· ·times, something like that.
`
`·4· · · · · Q· · How many times have you testified at
`
`·5· ·trial?
`
`·6· · · · · A· · Just trial, or do you want to include
`
`·7· ·trial and administrative hearings?
`
`·8· · · · · Q· · Well, let's take them separately so we
`
`·9· ·don't confuse them.· So first the trials, and then
`
`10· ·court.
`
`11· · · · · A· · Again, these numbers are not precise,
`
`12· ·but I suspect it's on the order of a handful for
`
`13· ·each one.· So maybe three or four trials, five or
`
`14· ·six ITC matters.· Those numbers could be a little
`
`15· ·bit off.
`
`16· · · · · Q· · And of the trials that you mentioned
`
`17· ·that were held in a court, how many of those have
`
`18· ·involved a patent?
`
`19· · · · · A· · I can only recall one, so one for
`
`20· ·certain.· There may be a second, but I don't
`
`21· ·recall it right now.
`
`22· · · · · Q· · And what was that patent case about?
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A· · That patent case was in Delaware, if I
`
`·2· ·recall correctly.· The plaintiff was
`
`·3· ·ISCO International, the defendants were STI and
`
`·4· ·Conductus®.· The technology related to
`
`·5· ·superconducting filters and cooled amplifiers for
`
`·6· ·cellular base stations.
`
`·7· · · · · Q· · And of the other trials you mentioned
`
`·8· ·that did not involve a patent, what were those
`
`·9· ·trials about?
`
`10· · · · · A· · One was a breach of contract, and one
`
`11· ·was theft of intellectual property.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · And the ITC cases that you mentioned,
`
`13· ·all of those involved a patent, correct?
`
`14· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · Q· · So approximately how many times,
`
`16· ·either in an ITC proceeding or a district court
`
`17· ·proceeding, have you served as an expert in a case
`
`18· ·involving patents?
`
`19· · · · · A· · You're referring to the times when
`
`20· ·I've testified at trial or hearing?
`
`21· · · · · Q· · Correct.
`
`22· · · · · A· · So it would be, again, roughly five or
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·six, something like that.· That number might be
`
`·2· ·off a little, but on the order of a handful.
`
`·3· · · · · Q· · And you also mentioned that you served
`
`·4· ·as an expert on other patent cases for which you
`
`·5· ·did not testify at a trial or hearing; is that
`
`·6· ·correct?
`
`·7· · · · · A· · That's correct.
`
`·8· · · · · Q· · And how many of those, approximately?
`
`·9· · · · · A· · That would be on the order of --
`
`10· ·again, this number is extremely rough.· Possibly
`
`11· ·two dozen over the last 15 or 16 years.· Maybe --
`
`12· ·yes, roughly two dozen, but that is a very rough
`
`13· ·number.
`
`14· · · · · Q· · So of all the cases that you just
`
`15· ·mentioned in which you worked as a patent expert
`
`16· ·either testifying at trial or not testifying at
`
`17· ·trial, how many of those, approximately, were on
`
`18· ·behalf of a patent owner?
`
`19· · · · · A· · Probably a handful.· I can't -- again,
`
`20· ·I can't give you an exact count there.· There were
`
`21· ·several, perhaps five or six, but, again, I can't
`
`22· ·give you an exact number.
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q· · And you've worked on IPRs other than
`
`·2· ·for the IPRs against SIPCO or IP Co.?
`
`·3· · · · · A· · Yes, I have.
`
`·4· · · · · Q· · How many, approximately?
`
`·5· · · · · A· · Again, all these numbers are extremely
`
`·6· ·rough.· I would guess it's something on the order
`
`·7· ·of ten.
`
`·8· · · · · Q· · And of those ten IPRs that you just
`
`·9· ·mentioned, how many have you worked on on behalf
`
`10· ·of the patent owner?
`
`11· · · · · A· · I don't believe there are any.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · What percentage of your time this
`
`13· ·year, 2017, has been spent working as an expert in
`
`14· ·patent cases?
`
`15· · · · · A· · Somewhere between 50 percent and
`
`16· ·75 percent.· I don't have an exact number.
`
`17· · · · · Q· · And the same question for 2016, what
`
`18· ·percentage, approximately, of your working time in
`
`19· ·that year has been spent working as an expert in
`
`20· ·patent matters?
`
`21· · · · · A· · I think it was a little higher in 2016
`
`22· ·than in 2017 to date, but I could not give you an
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·exact number.
`
`·2· · · · · Q· · And for 2015, what percentage of your
`
`·3· ·work and time in that year was spent working as an
`
`·4· ·expert in patent matters?
`
`·5· · · · · A· · Probably a little less than 2016, so
`
`·6· ·perhaps -- I'd have to go back and check my
`
`·7· ·records.· It would be perhaps more similar to my
`
`·8· ·workload this year as opposed to last year.
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · And what percentage of your income
`
`10· ·this year, 2017, has been made from working as an
`
`11· ·expert in patent matters?
`
`12· · · · · A· · Well, it's higher than the work hours
`
`13· ·ratio because I'm doing several things that don't
`
`14· ·actually generate income.· So a portion of my time
`
`15· ·is spent developing -- on some new ventures where
`
`16· ·there's no revenue coming in.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·So the percentage of income related to
`
`18· ·patent matters is higher than the percentage of
`
`19· ·hours related to patent matters.· I can't give you
`
`20· ·an exact number.
`
`21· · · · · Q· · Can you give me an approximate number?
`
`22· · · · · A· · No, I can't.
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q· · So same question for 2016, what
`
`·2· ·percentage of your income in that year was made
`
`·3· ·from working as an expert in patent matters?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · Similar sort of situation.· Again,
`
`·5· ·because the amount of time devoted to patent
`
`·6· ·matters was higher in 2016 and 2017, the income
`
`·7· ·was also higher.· I can't give you an exact
`
`·8· ·number.
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · Same question for 2015, what
`
`10· ·percentage of your income in that year was made
`
`11· ·from working as an expert in patent matters?
`
`12· · · · · A· · Again, same sort of situation applies
`
`13· ·in 2015.· Total hours were less on patent numbers
`
`14· ·than 2016, so the percentage of income would be
`
`15· ·less as well, but I can't give you a number.
`
`16· · · · · Q· · In the patent cases that you -- or I
`
`17· ·guess it was one patent case that you mentioned
`
`18· ·doing at the federal district court, did the
`
`19· ·opposing side ask the court to exclude your
`
`20· ·testimony in that case?
`
`21· · · · · A· · No, not that I'm aware of.
`
`22· · · · · Q· · And in the ITC patent cases that you
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·mentioned, in any of those cases did the opposing
`
`·2· ·side ask the court to exclude your expert
`
`·3· ·testimony?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · I don't recall.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · In preparing your declaration, which
`
`·6· ·is in front of you, what materials did you
`
`·7· ·consider when you were preparing it?
`
`·8· · · · · A· · So that's actually set forth in the
`
`·9· ·declaration, so let's see.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·If you look at -- I thought it was set
`
`11· ·forth.· Hold on a moment.· Maybe it's not set
`
`12· ·forth.· Hold on, let me check one more place.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·I considered the '732 patent -- just
`
`14· ·to be clear, this is patent number 8,013,732 --
`
`15· ·its file history.· I've looked at the prior art as
`
`16· ·identified here in the declaration, so I can list
`
`17· ·those off for you.· It's probably a good idea to
`
`18· ·do that.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·So Kahn, which is described starting
`
`20· ·at paragraph 16; Cerf and Kirstein, starting at
`
`21· ·paragraph 20; Cunningham starting at paragraph 22.
`
`22· ·Cunningham is C-U-N-N-I-N-G-H-A-M.· Ehlers, which
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·is E-H-L-E-R-S, starting at 23.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·I've also considered some additional
`
`·3· ·prior art that's not listed here.· Greeves, for
`
`·4· ·example, which came up in a prior proceeding -- I
`
`·5· ·believe Greeves is G-R-E-E-V-E-S -- as well as
`
`·6· ·some data sheets for an analog device's
`
`·7· ·temperature sensor, AD7416, and the family of
`
`·8· ·devices associated with that; as well as the
`
`·9· ·LEGO Mindstorms educational toy.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·I've looked at the institution
`
`11· ·decisions, the preliminary response of the Patent
`
`12· ·Owner.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·There was some claim construction
`
`14· ·filings by the parties, as well as I believe
`
`15· ·memorandum and order in some prior district cases
`
`16· ·for claim construction, so I evaluated all of
`
`17· ·that.· That's what I recall right now.
`
`18· · · · · Q· · One of the things you mentioned was
`
`19· ·that you looked at the file history for the
`
`20· ·'732 patent when forming your opinions for your
`
`21· ·declaration; is that correct?
`
`22· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q· · Does your declaration address anything
`
`·2· ·that happened during the prosecution of the
`
`·3· ·'732 patent?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · Not that I recall.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · Did you consider the file history of
`
`·6· ·the '732 patent relevant to your analysis?
`
`·7· · · · · A· · Well, I reviewed it.· As I was going
`
`·8· ·through my analysis, I didn't feel a need to bring
`
`·9· ·in anything from the file history.
`
`10· · · · · Q· · And what did you do to prepare for
`
`11· ·today's deposition?
`
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Again, I'm going to caution
`
`13· ·the witness not to reveal any attorney-client
`
`14· ·privileged information.· You can speak generally
`
`15· ·to what you did.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I arrived Sunday night
`
`17· ·and met with the attorneys on Monday, basically
`
`18· ·reviewed the documents, essentially most of the
`
`19· ·documents that I described to you just now, except
`
`20· ·for the file history.· I did not review the file
`
`21· ·history in preparation for this deposition today.
`
`22· ·That's it.
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·2· · · · · Q· · You mentioned that you met with a
`
`·3· ·group of attorneys on Monday; is that correct?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · Which ones?
`
`·6· · · · · A· · Don Jackson and Steve Pepe, as well as
`
`·7· ·Jim Davis.
`
`·8· · · · · Q· · And where did you meet with those
`
`·9· ·three attorneys?
`
`10· · · · · A· · That was in Tysons Corner.
`
`11· · · · · Q· · And how long did you meet on Monday
`
`12· ·with those three attorneys?
`
`13· · · · · A· · That was essentially an all-day
`
`14· ·meeting.
`
`15· · · · · Q· · Did you meet with any attorneys
`
`16· ·yesterday?
`
`17· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`18· · · · · Q· · Where did you meet?
`
`19· · · · · A· · That was here with Jim Davis.
`
`20· · · · · Q· · Anybody else besides Mr. Davis?
`
`21· · · · · A· · No.
`
`22· · · · · Q· · And how long did you meet with
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·Mr. Davis yesterday?
`
`·2· · · · · A· · That was not quite an entire day, but
`
`·3· ·I think we concluded around three o'clock,
`
`·4· ·something like that.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · What time did you start,
`
`·6· ·approximately?
`
`·7· · · · · A· · I think it was 10:00, 10:30 -- no, no,
`
`·8· ·it was nine o'clock.· 9:00 in the morning.
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · And what about today, did you meet
`
`10· ·with any attorneys today?
`
`11· · · · · A· · Briefly with Steve Pepe.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · Anyone else other than Mr. Pepe?
`
`13· · · · · A· · No.
`
`14· · · · · Q· · As you know, this proceeding is
`
`15· ·directed to U.S. Patent 8,013,732.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Is that your understanding?
`
`17· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`18· · · · · Q· · And if it's okay with you, whenever I
`
`19· ·ask a question about this patent, I'll refer to it
`
`20· ·as the '732 patent so I won't have to recite all
`
`21· ·seven numbers every time I ask a question.
`
`22· · · · · · · ·Is that okay?
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A· · That's fine.
`
`·2· · · · · Q· · Before preparing your declaration, did
`
`·3· ·you develop an understanding of the '732 patent?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · Yes, I did.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · And you still have an understanding of
`
`·6· ·the '732 patent today?
`
`·7· · · · · A· · I do.
`
`·8· · · · · Q· · Handing you what's been marked in this
`
`·9· ·IPR as Exhibit 1001, do you recognize this
`
`10· ·document?
`
`11· · · · · A· · I do.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · What is it?
`
`13· · · · · A· · This is the '732 patent by Thomas
`
`14· ·David Petite and Richard M. Huff, H-U-F-F.
`
`15· · · · · Q· · In your opinion, does the '732 patent
`
`16· ·disclose a system for monitoring a variety of
`
`17· ·environmental and other conditions within a
`
`18· ·remotely located region?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection to form.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.· According to the
`
`21· ·abstract of the '732, it is directed to a system
`
`22· ·for monitoring a variety of environmental and/or
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·other conditions within a defined remotely located
`
`·2· ·region.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·4· · · · · Q· · Can you turn your attention to
`
`·5· ·Figure 2 of the '732 patent?
`
`·6· · · · · A· · Sure.
`
`·7· · · · · Q· · Does Figure 3 -- let me start over.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·Does Figure 2 of the '732 patent
`
`·9· ·illustrate a monitoring and control system of the
`
`10· ·invention of the '732 patent?
`
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection to form.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It's described in
`
`13· ·column 4 at lines 42 to 43 as a block diagram
`
`14· ·illustrating a monitoring/control system of the
`
`15· ·present invention.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`17· · · · · Q· · Does the monitoring and control system
`
`18· ·of the '732 patent include sensors and actuators
`
`19· ·that are each integrated with the transceiver?
`
`20· · · · · A· · Yes, it does.
`
`21· · · · · Q· · Does the '732 patent illustrate the
`
`22· ·sensors and actuators that are --
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A· · Let me hold up.· Let me back up a
`
`·2· ·moment.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·So your use of the word "integrated,"
`
`·4· ·I think I need to be a little bit careful about
`
`·5· ·you using the word "integrated."
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·So if you refer to some of the
`
`·7· ·figures, some of the other figures -- for example,
`
`·8· ·Figure 3C or Figure 3D -- it certainly shows
`
`·9· ·sensors and actuators that are interfaced with a
`
`10· ·transceiver through a data interface and a data
`
`11· ·controller.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·So give me another moment.· Although
`
`13· ·it is possible -- so if you consider -- let me see
`
`14· ·the way they talk about Figure 2.· Hold on.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·At the bottom of column 5, it does say
`
`16· ·that, "Control system 200 consists of one or more
`
`17· ·sensor/actuators ... each integrated with a
`
`18· ·transceiver," so I would agree with that.
`
`19· · · · · Q· · Does the system of the '732 patent
`
`20· ·also include a plurality of stand-alone
`
`21· ·transceivers?
`
`22· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q· · Are the stand-alone transceivers and
`
`·2· ·the integrated transceivers configured to receive
`
`·3· ·an incoming radio frequency transmission?
`
`·4· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · · Q· · Are the stand-alone transceivers and
`
`·6· ·integrated transceivers configured to also
`
`·7· ·transmit a radio frequency transmission?
`
`·8· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · Does the '732 patent disclose local
`
`10· ·gateways?
`
`11· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · Is a local gateway illustrated on
`
`13· ·Figure 2 of the '732 patent?
`
`14· · · · · A· · It is.
`
`15· · · · · Q· · Where is it illustrated?
`
`16· · · · · A· · It's block 210 in Figure 2.
`
`17· · · · · Q· · Are the local gateways configured to
`
`18· ·receive remote data transmissions from the various
`
`19· ·stand-alone transceivers?
`
`20· · · · · A· · In column 6, lines 32 to 35, it does
`
`21· ·say the local gateways 210 and 220 are configured
`
`22· ·and disposed to receive remote data transmissions
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·from the various stand-alone transceivers or
`
`·2· ·integrated transceivers.
`
`·3· · · · · Q· · A radio frequency, or RF signal, is a
`
`·4· ·wireless signal; is that correct?
`
`·5· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·6· · · · · Q· · Do the transceivers of the '732 patent
`
`·7· ·have an RF signal output level that is adequate to
`
`·8· ·transmit a formatted data signal to the gateways?
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, the way it's
`
`11· ·described here in column 6 is that at least some
`
`12· ·of the transceivers, stand-alone or integrated,
`
`13· ·have an RF signal output level sufficient to
`
`14· ·adequately transmit the formatted data signal to
`
`15· ·the gateways.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·So a person of skill would understand
`
`17· ·that if the separation distance were sufficiently
`
`18· ·great, the signal output level might not be
`
`19· ·sufficient.· But certainly for the system to
`
`20· ·operate, at least some of these transceivers would
`
`21· ·have to be -- would have to have a signal level
`
`22· ·sufficient to do that.
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·2· · · · · Q· · Is it your testimony that the signal
`
`·3· ·level is related to the transmission range?
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection, form.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It's not a direct
`
`·6· ·relationship, but the transmission range is
`
`·7· ·affected by the signal level.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · And how is the transmission range
`
`10· ·affected by the signal level?
`
`11· · · · · A· · Well --
`
`12· · · · · Q· · Maybe I'll ask a more direct question
`
`13· ·or a clearer question.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·What is the relation between the
`
`15· ·transmission range and the signal level of a
`
`16· ·signal?
`
`17· · · · · A· · Well, that's actually very
`
`18· ·complicated.· The answer is not simple, but I can
`
`19· ·give you some background on that.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·So, for example, it's generally
`
`21· ·recognized that RF signals propagate through
`
`22· ·space, and as they fill a larger and larger volume
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·because they're propagating to greater and greater
`
`·2· ·distances, the amount of signal energy in any
`
`·3· ·small portion of space goes down generally as the
`
`·4· ·square of distance.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·So the signal level, generally
`
`·6· ·speaking, decays as one over the square of
`
`·7· ·distance, but that's a simplification because
`
`·8· ·there's other factors that come into play.· There
`
`·9· ·can be reflections off of local surfaces, and so
`
`10· ·on, which can create fading events, as well as
`
`11· ·there could be shadowing and blockage.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·So it's not a simple relationship in
`
`13· ·the general case, but as one moves further away
`
`14· ·from a transmitter, the signal level tends to
`
`15· ·decline.· And, eventually, if you move far enough
`
`16· ·away, it is too weak to be reliably received.
`
`17· · · · · Q· · And the signal level is related to the
`
`18· ·power level?
`
`19· · · · · A· · I think I understand your question,
`
`20· ·but if you could -- are you simply asking is the
`
`21· ·signal level related to the amount of power you
`
`22· ·give to the transmitter final stage amplifier?
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q· · That's right.
`
`·2· · · · · A· · Again, I mean, amplifiers, depending
`
`·3· ·on the amplifier, the efficiency could vary.· But
`
`·4· ·again, generally speaking, in a well-designed
`
`·5· ·radio or transceiver using a well-designed
`
`·6· ·amplifier, connected to a well-designed antenna
`
`·7· ·that is properly matched to the transceivers, that
`
`·8· ·there is efficient signal delivery to the antenna.
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·Generally speaking, if you provide --
`
`10· ·if you design a system with a higher power
`
`11· ·amplifier, you'll be able to generate a higher
`
`12· ·power RF signal.
`
`13· · · · · Q· · So, generally, higher power
`
`14· ·transmitters have a higher transmission rate than
`
`15· ·low-powered transmitters?
`
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection to form.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's, again, a
`
`18· ·simplification because it requires assumptions on
`
`19· ·the frequency band, the type of antenna being
`
`20· ·used.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·So there are other ways to, for
`
`22· ·example, compensate for a low-power transmitter,
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·and depending on the frequency band that's being
`
`·2· ·used, and the environment and other factors, that
`
`·3· ·general statement might not be true in every case.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·But if one wished to -- so I'm going
`
`·5· ·to stop there.· So while that may be true in some
`
`·6· ·scenarios, it would not necessarily be true in all
`
`·7· ·scenarios.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · So let's say that you design a
`
`10· ·controlled experiment, like, for example, my son
`
`11· ·in middle school has been trained to do, where you
`
`12· ·have the same environment and you have the same
`
`13· ·frequency, and you have two transmitters operating
`
`14· ·in the same environment, transmitting in the same
`
`15· ·frequency, and one has a higher power than the
`
`16· ·other.· Would the transmitter with the higher
`
`17· ·power have a longer transmission rate?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection, form.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Assuming other factors
`
`20· ·were held constant.· So assuming that the antennas
`
`21· ·were the same, assuming the receiver was the same,
`
`22· ·assuming the environment was the same, as I think
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·you did make that as a specific assumption, I
`
`·2· ·would say yes.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·So if everything is held equal except
`
`·4· ·for the transmit power, then the transmitter with
`
`·5· ·the higher transmit power will typically have a
`
`·6· ·greater transmission range.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·And perhaps just to clarify, this
`
`·8· ·brings to the surface, if you will, a point that
`
`·9· ·may be important in this line of questioning, and
`
`10· ·I'll just bring it to your attention.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·So what we're essentially saying to
`
`12· ·each other here is that the transmission range is
`
`13· ·not specifically a characteristic of the
`
`14· ·transmitter, although it's affected by the
`
`15· ·transmitter.· But the transmission range is a
`
`16· ·characteristic of the entire communication system,
`
`17· ·which depends on the transmitter, the antennas
`
`18· ·used, the receiver, the environment, so on.· So
`
`19· ·the transmission range is not specifically a
`
`20· ·characteristic of the transmitter, although it's
`
`21· ·affected by the transmitter.
`
`22
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·2· · · · · Q· · Well, I think we had agreed that with
`
`·3· ·the other factors, that we would keep those
`
`·4· ·constant.· So in the experiment that I defined,
`
`·5· ·only the transmitter power would differ.
`
`·6· · · · · A· · Right.
`
`·7· · · · · Q· · So under those conditions, you would
`
`·8· ·agree that the transmitter transmitting at a
`
`·9· ·higher power would have a greater transmission?
`
`10· · · · · A· · I agree with that.· I'm just
`
`11· ·clarifying that the transmission range is not
`
`12· ·uniquely a characteristic of the transmitter.
`
`13· · · · · Q· · Do the local gateways convert the
`
`14· ·remote data transmission received from the
`
`15· ·transceivers into TCP/IP format in the
`
`16· ·'732 patent?
`
`17· · · · · A· · Again referring to column 6 at
`
`18· ·line 37, I would say starting at line 37, the
`
`19· ·specification does recite, "Local gateways 210 and
`
`20· ·220 analyze the transmissions received, convert
`
`21· ·the transmissions into TCP/IP format, and further
`
`22· ·communicate the remote data signal transmissions
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·via WAN 230."
`
`·2· · · · · Q· · And does the latter part of that
`
`·3· ·sentence indicate to you that the local gateways
`
`·4· ·of the '732 patent communicate the converted
`
`·5· ·remote data signal transmissions via the WAN?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection to form.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·BY MR. GONSALVES:
`
`·9· · · · · Q· · Do the transceivers of the '732 patent
`
`10· ·have a unique identification code?
`
`11· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`12· · · · · Q· · Do the transceivers of the '732 patent
`
`13· ·transmit -- let me start over.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Do the integrated transceivers of the
`
`15· ·'732 patent transmit to the stand-alone
`
`16· ·transceivers a data packet that includes sensor
`
`17· ·data, as well as the identification code?
`
`18· · · · · A· · Say that again.
`
`19· · · · · Q· · Do the integrated transceivers
`
`20· ·transmit to the stand-alone transceivers a data
`
`21· ·packet that includes sensor data, as well as the
`
`22· ·identification code of the integrated transceiver
`
`IPR2017-00216
`SIPCO, LLC
`Exhibit 2016
`
`
`
`·1· ·doing the transmission?
`
`·2· · · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · · · Q· · Does the stand-alone transceiver in
`
`·4· ·the '732 patent that receives the data packet from
`
`·5· ·an integrated transceiver form its own data
`
`·6· ·packet?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. PEPE:· Objection, form.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you point me to a
`
`·9· ·citation in the patent for tha
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