Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
`
`1
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________________
` ACRUX DDS PTY LTD. & ACRUX LIMITED
` Petitioners
` v.
` KAKEN PHARMACEUTICAL CO., LTD., and
`VALEANT PHARMACEUTICALS INTERNATIONAL, INC.,
` Patent Owner and Licensee
` ____________________________________
` Case: IPR2017-00190
` U.S. Patent No. 7,214,506
` ____________________________________
`
` CROSS EXAMINATION OF:
` KENNETH A. WALTERS, Ph.D.
` Friday, July 21, 2017
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
`
`1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________________
` ACRUX DDS PTY LTD. & ACRUX LIMITED
` Petitioners
` v.
` KAKEN PHARMACEUTICAL CO., LTD., and
`VALEANT PHARMACEUTICALS INTERNATIONAL, INC.,
` Patent Owner and Licensee
` ____________________________________
` Case: IPR2017-00190
` U.S. Patent No. 7,214,506
` ____________________________________
`
` CROSS EXAMINATION OF:
` KENNETH A. WALTERS, Ph.D.
` Friday, July 21, 2017
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
`
`2
`
` KENNETH A. WALTERS, called for
`cross-examination by counsel for Patent Owner,
`pursuant to notice, at the offices of Rothwell Figg,
`607 14th Street, Northwest, Suite 800, Washington,
`D.C., before SUSAN L. CIMINELLI, CRR, RPR, a Notary
`Public in and for the District of Columbia,
`beginning at 9:09 a.m., when were present on behalf
`of the respective parties:
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`On behalf of Patent Owner:
` JOHN D. LIVINGSTONE, ESQUIRE
` Finnegan Henderson Farabow Garrett &
` Dunner, LLP
` 271 17th Street, N.W.
` Suite 1400
` Atlanta, Georgia 30363-6209
` (404) 653-6400
` John.livingstone@finnegan.com
` -and-
` BARBARA RUDOLPH, ESQUIRE
` JEFFREY M. JACOBSTEIN, ESQUIRE
` Finnegan Henderson Farabow Garrett &
` Dunner, LLP
` 901 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20001-4413
` (202) 408-4000
` barbara.rudolph@finnegan.com
` Jeffrey.jacobstein@finnegan.com
`
`On behalf of Petitioners:
` E. ANTHONY FIGG, ESQUIRE
` AYDIN H. HARSTON, Ph.D., ESQUIRE
` ROTHWELL FIGG
` 607 14th Street, N.W.
` Suite 800
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` (202) 763-6040
` efigg@rfem.com
` aharston@rfem.com
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Tyler Liu, Esquire, Argentum
` Daniel Holmstock, Videographer
` * * * * *
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
`
`4
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` C O N T E N T S
`KENNETH A. WALTERS
`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
` Counsel for Patent Owner 7, 179
` Counsel for Petitioner 170
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`PATENT OWNER EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1 Perspectives in Percutaneous
` Penetration 77
`Exhibit 2 Modified Release During Delivery
` Technology, 2nd Edition V2 180
`Exhibit 3 Treatment of Dry Skin Syndrome 182
`PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1005 11
`Exhibit Kaken 2010 111
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1011 133
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1015 118
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1013 138
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1012 150
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1014 140
`Exhibit Acrux DDS PTY 1001 66
`
`08:41:22
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
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`IPR2017-00190
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`July 21, 2017
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is
`video number 1 in the video recorded deposition of
`Dr. Kenneth A. Walters, taken in the matter of Acrux
`DDS Pty, et al., Petitioners v. Kaken Pharmaceutical
`Company Limited et al., Patent Owner and Licensee,
`pending before the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`Board, IPR number 2017-00190 for Patent Number
`7,214,506.
` This deposition is being held at the law
`offices of Rothwell Figg, 607 14th Street,
`Northwest, Suite 800, in Washington, D.C., on July
`21st, 2017. The time on the video screen is 9:09
`a.m.
` My name is Daniel Holmstock, and I'm the
`legal video specialist. And with me, our court
`reporter, Sue Ciminelli. We are in association with
`Henderson Legal Services, located at 1560 Wilson
`Boulevard in Arlington, Virginia. For the record,
`now will counsel please introduce themselves and
`whom they represent.
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`09:09:26
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` MR. LIVINGSTONE: My name is John
`Livingstone of Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett
`& Dunner. I represent Patent Owner Kaken
`Pharmaceuticals. With me today are my colleagues,
`Jeffrey Jacobstein and Barbara Rudolph.
` MR. FIGG: Tony Figg, Rothwell Figg,
`representing the Petitioner Acrux and the witness.
`With me is Aydin Harston from my firm, and also you
`should introduce yourself.
` MR. LIU: I'm Tyler Liu. I'm in-house
`counsel, Argentum Pharmaceuticals.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: And I'll just, for the
`record, note that since Argentum is not officially
`part of this proceeding, we object to Mr. Liu being
`here.
` MR. FIGG: You object?
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Uh-huh.
` MR. FIGG: Okay. And Ms. Rudolph is not
`admitted in this case, so I guess we'll object to
`her presence.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Okay. Fine. You
`didn't object to her pro hac, right?
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`09:10:23
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` MR. FIGG: We did not.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Perfect.
` MR. FIGG: But she's not been admitted.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
`reporter please administer the oath.
`Whereupon,
` KENNETH A. WALTERS, Ph.D.,
`was called as a witness by counsel for Patent Owner,
`and having been duly sworn, was examined and
`testified as follows:
` CROSS-EXAMINATION
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Walters.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Can you please state your full name and
`your home address, please, for the record?
` A. The name is Kenneth Andrew Walters. Home
`address is the Old Coach House, Charlynch Road,
`C-H-A-R-L-Y-N-C-H, Sbaxton, S-B-A-X-T-O-N, Somerset,
`post code is TA51BJ, in the United Kingdom.
` Q. During any of your preparation time for
`this deposition, was Mr. Liu present?
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`09:11:11
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`09:11:14
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And when was that?
` A. Yesterday and the day before.
` Q. Has Mr. Liu been present on any calls
`that you've had in the past?
` A. No.
` Q. First time you heard from Mr. Liu or any
`counsel from Argentum was two days ago?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Are you consulting on behalf of Argentum
`related to the '506 patent?
` A. I'm not consulting with Argentum
`directly, no.
` Q. Does Argentum represent you in this
`proceeding?
` A. I'm not sure. I believe Rothwell Figg
`represent me.
` Q. Are you being paid by Argentum?
` A. No.
` Q. You're being paid by Rothwell Figg?
` A. Yes.
` Q. On behalf of Acrux?
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
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`July 21, 2017
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` A. Yes.
` Q. So you have no engagement letter with
`Argentum?
` A. No.
` Q. So what did you speak about during your
`prep time with Mr. Liu?
` MR. FIGG: Objection. We assert that
`there is a community of interest privilege between
`Argentum and Acrux. And just for the record, I
`think Argentum submitted a paper indicating that it
`was going to be jointly retaining Dr. Walters. The
`paperwork on that has not been completed, but
`Dr. Walters is, essentially, and for all practical
`purposes, jointly retained by Acrux and Argentum at
`this point in time.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: And none of that
`paperwork was finalized before two days ago during
`the prep sessions?
` MR. FIGG: It has not been -- well, a
`community of interest agreement between Argentum and
`Acrux has been signed before there was any contact
`with Dr. Walters.
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
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`July 21, 2017
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`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. Have you consulted with any outside
`attorneys for Argentum, Dr. Walters?
` A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
` Q. Yes. So my understanding is that Mr. Liu
`is an in-house counsel for Argentum. And I'm
`wondering if you had consulted with any outside
`counsel for Argentum?
` A. No.
` Q. Judging from your resume, I see you've
`been deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And so I'm sure you understand the ground
`rules?
` A. I do, yes.
` Q. But just to, you know, not to beat a dead
`horse, but to go over a couple of them. I'm going
`to ask you questions. If you respond to my
`questions, I'll assume that you understood the
`question. So if there's anything that I said that
`you don't understand, please let me know.
` A. Okay.
`
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
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`July 21, 2017
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` Q. I understand that you've recently had
`some medical issues, and so if there -- at any time
`you need to take a break, this is not a draconian
`death march. So please just let me know, and we'll
`take a break at your convenience.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. Are you on any medication right now that
`might affect your ability to tell the truth?
` A. No.
` Q. And is there any other reason that you
`might not be able to tell the truth today?
` A. None.
` Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what has
`been marked as Acrux DDS Exhibit 1005.
` (ACRUX DDS Exhibit No. 1005 was
` previously marked for
` identification.)
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1005 as the
`declaration that you submitted on behalf of Acrux to
`support its petition against U.S. Patent Number
`7,214,506?
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
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`July 21, 2017
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And to the best of your knowledge, does
`that Exhibit 1005 look complete and accurate?
` A. Well, without going through all of the
`pages, it does look like it's all there, yes.
` Q. We did our best to replicate exactly what
`you provided to us. If you look at page 80 of 108,
`you'll see a signature there of Kenneth A. Walters
`on October 28th, 2016. Is that your signature?
` A. It is, yes.
` Q. Okay. And do you have any corrections or
`updates to this declaration that you'd like to
`provide to us before we start the questioning?
` A. No.
` Q. If you could, please look at appendix A,
`which I believe is your resume. And on page 1 of
`your resume, which is 82 of 108 of Exhibit 1005, on
`the top left corner, it says that this is your
`resume as of October 2016. Do you see that?
` A. I see that, yes.
` Q. Are there any material changes to this
`resume as of today, February whatever it is, 18th,
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
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`July 21, 2017
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`19th, 20th of 2017. 21st.
` A. No.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. FIGG: What was the date? I'm sorry.
`What was the date you just --
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: I wasn't sure what
`today's date was.
` MR. FIGG: It's not February.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Right. It's July 21st.
` MR. FIGG: I think you said February
`21st.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: I think I did, too.
`It's been a long 2017. Ms. Rudolph knows.
` THE WITNESS: I can relate to that.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. Under employment, it notes that you're
`currently working at a company called An-eX
`Analytical Services in Cardiff, UK, do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And An-eX is a contract research
`laboratory, right?
` A. Correct.
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` Q. And it contracts with pharmaceutical
`companies to develop dermatological and transdermal
`formulations?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And as part of your work at An-eX, you've
`worked on numerous dermatological products and
`formulations, right?
` A. I have, yes.
` Q. And those include formulations like
`aqueous gels?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Hydro gels?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Nonaqueous gels?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Creams?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Ointments.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Pastes?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Lotions?
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`09:18:34
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`09:18:35
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`09:18:35
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
`
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Transdermal systems?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Reservoir type drugs?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Adhesive matrix types?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Foams?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And sprays?
` A. Sprays, yes.
` Q. In fact, you've probably worked with
`every formulation you would apply to the skin, is
`that right?
` A. I have, yes.
` Q. Now, your current role is identified as
`the QA and QC -- director of QA/QC. What's your
`role and responsibility as the director of QA and
`QC?
` A. Basically, to make sure that all of the
`quality systems are in place, that the studies are
`carried out correctly, according to protocol, and
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`09:19:16
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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`that the results are accurately represented in the
`reports that are written.
` Q. And how is that different from your
`previous role, which was the director of R&D and
`business development?
` A. My previous role, I used to go out and
`get business, and also direct the lab personnel in
`the research projects that we were doing.
` Q. And when you say you'd go out and get
`business, what do you mean by that?
` A. Well, I would chase business from past
`colleagues. I would go to meetings like the AAPS
`meeting, the APPP meeting, and basically tout for
`business.
` Q. And when you were touting for that
`business, if you could give me your two sentence
`marketing pitch, why would people want to use An-eX?
` A. People would want to use An-eX --
` MR. FIGG: Objection. You can answer.
` THE WITNESS: People would want to use
`An-eX because we provide a quality service in a
`timely manner, and we have many repeat clients.
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`09:20:17
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`09:20:19
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`09:20:23
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. Okay. And this service is related to the
`dermatological and transdermal formulations that we
`talked about earlier?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any particular reason why you
`changed your role from the director of R&D to QA/QC?
` A. Basically, because I -- I was getting
`really too old to be in the lab. And we developed a
`young man, Darren Green, who came to us with a
`degree many years ago, and built him up to be a very
`good scientist. And he took over the role of being
`a director of R&D. He is now the chief scientific
`officer.
` Q. In your resume, underneath virtually
`every place that you've worked, you have a
`subheading called accomplishments. Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what are you trying to convey to the
`reader when you identify your accomplishments?
` A. Basically, what I did was in the position
`that it's talking about.
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`09:21:33
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`09:21:39
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` Q. I guess for instance, An-eX, does that
`identify virtually everything you worked on while
`you were at An-eX?
` A. Not everything, no. It's just a -- I
`mean, we've worked on maybe 2 or 300 different
`compounds over the years.
` Q. So would these be the highlights?
` A. These are basically just some of them. I
`don't think -- I don't think I can highlight
`anything there that was any more important than the
`other. I mean, each -- each job is important in
`itself, and there are obviously many compounds that
`are not listed there, which did not even have names.
`They were just company reference numbers, so...
` Q. I recognize you can't list all the things
`you worked on, but you did identify these particular
`things as accomplishments, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How did you select which projects to put
`under this accomplishment heading for your time at
`An-eX?
` A. Well, basically, I went through -- you
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`09:22:56
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
`
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`can probably see that it's in rough alphabetical
`order. I just went through a list of the compounds
`that we had worked on, and pulled out the ones that
`I knew would not be objected to if the client saw
`them.
` Q. Is that true for the other
`accomplishments that you've identified in your
`resume?
` A. I think that's the only one that lists
`the -- the An-eX is the only one that lists
`materials which are not company sensitive.
` Q. I guess what I'm trying to get at is,
`what you're describing to me sounds like projects or
`roles and responsibilities. When I think of an
`accomplishment, I think of something that I'm
`holding out to the world as something that is an
`achievement, beyond just my regular role and
`responsibility. I want to make sure that I
`understand what you think.
` A. Okay. Okay. Well, that --
` MR. FIGG: Objection to the form of the
`question. You can answer.
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`09:24:00
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`09:24:02
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`09:24:04
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` THE WITNESS: This is what I did.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. That you described a couple of the
`projects that you've worked on, and put them in your
`accomplishments?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Now, in your accomplishments, under An-eX
`on page 82 of 108, about halfway down, in the middle
`of that paragraph, there is an accomplishment
`identified as ketoconazole?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you see that? Did your work on
`ketoconazole involve formulations for the treatment
`of onychomycosis?
` A. No. The work I did on -- the work I did
`on ketoconazole involved several formulations. My
`recollection was that they were mainly
`dermatological, skin formulations.
` Q. Scalp formulations?
` A. Not scalp, just -- although they could
`have been used as scalp. We were looking at a
`variety of formulations there. I think we looked at
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`09:25:21
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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`creams, gels, anhydrous gels, and ointments. And
`basically, we were looking for what the delivery
`profile of ketoconazole was from those various
`formulations. Solutions as well. So it was
`basically formulations that you could apply to the
`skin.
` Q. If you could tell me generally when that
`work was performed?
` A. Probably -- probably in the late 1990s.
` Q. It's my understanding, at An-eX, you also
`provide testing services for the pharmaceutical
`industry, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you performed any testing services
`in connection with your representation -- with your
`work here in the IPR?
` A. Well, in this particular project?
` Q. That's right.
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. Have you provided any testing
`services relating to efinaconazole?
` A. No.
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`09:26:40
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` Q. Have you provided any evaluative services
`relating to efinaconazole or Jublia outside the
`context of this particular IPR?
` MR. FIGG: Objection. Vague. You may
`answer.
` THE WITNESS: I have not done any work on
`efinaconazole or Jublia.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. Have you done work on any patents that
`cover efinaconazole and Jublia that relate to
`formulations?
` A. What do you mean by work?
` Q. Well, there is two patents that aren't
`involved in this IPR, and they are what I would
`consider formulation patents. And I'm wondering if
`you've offered any consulting services on those
`patents?
` MR. FIGG: Objection, to the extent
`whether or not he has would be privileged
`information. You need not answer the question.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
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`09:27:41
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` Q. Are you going to follow your counsel's
`instructions?
` A. I am, yes.
` Q. Then I got my answer. Have you ever seen
`a patent called the Winckle patent that covers
`formulations of efinaconazole?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How did you come to identify that patent?
` MR. FIGG: Doctor, again, you may respond
`to the question to the extent you can without
`disclosing any communications you've had with
`counsel for Acrux, if there had been any.
` THE WITNESS: Basically, I know Gareth
`Winckle personally. He is a friend of mine. And
`we've worked together, so I'm familiar with the work
`he has done at his various companies he's been at.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. So are you familiar with the Winckle
`patent, which is alternative formulation patents on
`efinaconazole, only from your contacts with Gareth
`Winckle?
` MR. FIGG: Same instruction, Doctor. And
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`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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`I also object to the question as beyond the scope of
`the direct examination.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm going to follow
`counsel's advice.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: He is not advising you
`not to answer.
` MR. FIGG: Yes, I did.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: You're advising him not
`to answer at all.
` MR. FIGG: I told him the same
`instruction.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Your earlier
`instruction was, can you provide how you understand
`the patent without giving away conversations of
`counsel.
` MR. FIGG: Yeah. And that's the same
`instruction I'm giving now.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Okay.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. So you can't tell me how you became aware
`of the Winckle patent without disclosing
`confidential or privileged communications with
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`
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`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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`counsel?
` A. Well, I knew of the patents beforehand.
`Before I was connected -- contacted.
` Q. Are you doing any consulting work with
`Acrux related to the Winckle patents?
` MR. FIGG: You know, if you continue
`asking these questions, I think we're going to have
`to call the Board and get a ruling, because this is
`well beyond anything that's at issue in this IPR.
`You have no right to know anything about what
`Dr. Walters has done with Acrux, if anything,
`involving any other patents. So if you want to call
`the Board, we can try to do that.
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: I think the relevancy
`of the Winckle patents is that you probably reached
`out to Dr. Walters for his formulation expertise.
` MR. FIGG: What difference does that
`make?
` MR. LIVINGSTONE: Because he's not an
`expert in onychomycosis.
` MR. FIGG: Well, that's a contention you
`may make.
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` MR. LIVINGSTONE: That's right. And
`that's one that I'm exploring.
` MR. FIGG: But that has nothing to do
`with any work that he may or may not be doing
`involving patents that are not involved in this IPR.
`BY MR. LIVINGSTONE:
` Q. When were you first contacted by Acrux
`related to the '506 patent?
` A. I don't think I was contacted by Acrux.
` Q. Who were you contacted by?
` A. I was contacted by Aydin, I think, was
`the first person that contacted me.
` Q. What was the subject matter of that
`conversation?
` A. Basically, would I be interested in being
`a consultant with respect to the patent, the '506
`that we're talking about.
` Q. And you had not been retained at that
`time, right?
` A. No.
` Q. Did Mr. Harston mention the Winckle
`patents at that time?
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Walters, Kenneth A.
`
`IPR2017-00190
`
`July 21, 2017
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` A. I don't recall.
` Q. What else did he tell you about on that
`call?
` A. I think basically he wanted -- he wanted
`to see -- I don't know whether it was a call or an
`email, but basically he wanted to see my CV and
`check my suitability.
` Q. When was that first contact, to the best
`of your recollection?
` A. It would have been about a year ago.
`Maybe May last year.
` Q. What was your understanding -- strike
`that.
` When you say that Mr. Harston was
`assessing your suitability for the work, what was
`your understanding of what would be
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