`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·_____________
`·2
`· · · · · BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · ·_____________
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`·4· · · · · · · · REACTIVE SURFACES LTD. LLP,
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·7· · · · · · · · ·TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ______________
`·9
`· · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2016-01462
`10· · · · · · · · · Patent No. 8,324,295 B2
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`11· · · **********************************************
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · ·ERIC RAY
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`14· · · · · · · · · · ·NOVEMBER 15, 2017
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`15· · · **********************************************
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`16· · · ORAL DEPOSITION OF ERIC RAY, produced as a witness
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`17· at the instance of the Patent Owner, was duly sworn, was
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`18· taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the
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`19· NOVEMBER 15, 2017, from 1:27 p.m. to 3:07 p.m., before
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`20· Chris Carpenter, CSR, in and for the State of Texas,
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`21· reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of U.S.
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`22· Legal Support, 701 Brazos Street, Suite 380, Austin,
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`23· Texas 78701, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil
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`24· Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or
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`25· attached hereto.
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
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`TOYOTA EXHIBIT 2018
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`Reactive Surfaces Ltd. LLP v.
`Toyota Motor Corporation
`IPR2016-01914
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`2
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`·1
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`·2
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`·3· · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·4· FOR THE PETITIONER:
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`·5· · · · ·Rico Reyes
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`·6· · · · ·David O. Simmons, Patent Agent
`· · · · · ·IVC PATENT AGENCY
`·7· · · · ·P.O. Box 26584
`· · · · · ·Austin, TX· 78755
`·8· · · · ·(512) 345-9767
`· · · · · ·dsimmons@sbcglobal.net
`·9
`· · · · · ·Jonathan D. Hurt, Patent Agent
`10· · · · ·McDANIEL & ASSOCIATES, PC
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`11· FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
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`12· · · · ·Oleg Khariton (by video conference)
`· · · · · ·DINSMORE & SHOHL, LLP
`13· · · · ·255 East Fifth Street
`· · · · · ·Suite 1900
`14· · · · ·Cincinnati, OH· 45202
`· · · · · ·(512) 977-8200
`15· · · · ·oleg.khariton@dinsmore.com
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
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`·2· Appearances........................................2
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`·3· ERIC RAY
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`·4· · · · ·Examination by Mr. Khariton.................4
`· · · · · ·Examination by Mr. Reyes...................35
`·5· · · · ·Further Examination by Mr. Khariton........46
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`·6· Changes and Signature..............................52
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`·7· Reporter's Certificate.............................53
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
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`·9· NO. DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`10· ·1020· Declaration of Eric Ray· · · · · · · · · · · ·8
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`11· ·1037· Chapter from Advances in Fingerprint· · · · ·16
`· · · · · ·Technology
`12
`· · ·2013· Advanced Fingerprint Analysis Project· · · · 21
`13· · · · ·Fingerprint Constituents
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`14
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ERIC RAY,
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`·2· having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the
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`·3· whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as
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`·4· follows:
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`·6· BY MR. KHARITON:
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`·7· · · Q.· ·Mr. Ray, good afternoon.
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`·8· · · A.· ·Good afternoon.
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`·9· · · Q.· ·My name is Oleg Khariton, and I'm going to be
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`10· deposing you in connection with your declaration.
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`11· · · · · · · ·Have you ever been deposed before?
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`12· · · A.· ·No, I don't believe so.· I've been involved in
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`13· court testimony and interviews, but not a formal
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`14· deposition.
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`15· · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you've testified in a -- in court
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`16· before; is that right?
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`17· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · Q.· ·Approximately how many times?
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`19· · · A.· ·Oh, at least a dozen, maybe around 15 times.
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`20· · · Q.· ·And what type of cases have -- have you
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`21· testified in?
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`22· · · A.· ·They've all been criminal cases in Superior
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`23· Court.
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`24· · · Q.· ·And what kind of issues were you testifying on,
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`25· generally?
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`·1· · · A.· ·So this was all in relation to my position with
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`·2· -- with the Arizona Department of Public Safety, in
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`·3· their crime lab.· So I was testifying to work I did on
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`·4· fingerprints, developing, recording, comparing
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`·5· fingerprints in -- in these criminal cases.
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`·6· · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, I'm going to take just a couple of
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`·7· moments to go over some -- some basics.· So, obviously,
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`·8· I'm going to be asking a series of questions, and the
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`·9· stenographer is going to be taking down the questions
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`10· and your answers.· So to help him, let's do our best not
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`11· to talk at the same time.· Please answer verbally, so
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`12· avoid simply nodding or shaking your head.· And if you
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`13· don't understand a question, just let me know, and I'll
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`14· do my best to clarify it for you.
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`15· · · · · · · ·If you answer a question, then I'm going
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`16· to assume that you heard it and that you understood
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`17· it.· And if you need a break at any point, just let me
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`18· know.· And as long there's not a question pending, we'll
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`19· break.
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`20· · · · · · · ·So what, if anything, did you do to
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`21· prepare for your deposition today?
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`22· · · A.· ·So I reviewed my declaration and some of the
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`23· other documents that was provided to me in relation to
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`24· this case.
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`25· · · Q.· ·When you say documents that were provided to
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`·1· you in relation to this case, can you elaborate at bit
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`·2· more?
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`·3· · · A.· ·Yes.· Specifically, the -- I reviewed a
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`·4· transcript of Dr. Dordick's testimony.· Previously, in
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`·5· -- in preparing my declaration, I reviewed Dr. Dordick's
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`·6· declaration, the patent, and other exhibits.· I could
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`·7· get you a full list for you, if you'd like.· But that's
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`·8· an example of the things I reviewed in preparing my
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`·9· declaration.
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`10· · · Q.· ·No, that's -- that's sufficient for our
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`11· purposes here.
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`12· · · · · · · ·Can you briefly describe your educational
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`13· background?· And you don't have to go into great detail,
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`14· but just, you know, give me the highlights.
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`15· · · A.· ·Sure.· I have a bachelor of science degree from
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`16· the University of Arizona, with a double major in
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`17· biochemistry and molecular and cellular
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`18· biology.· From -- in relation to fingerprints, all of
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`19· that training and education has been formal on-the-job
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`20· training or attending conferences and classes that
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`21· relate to -- to that work.
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`22· · · Q.· ·And can you briefly describe your professional
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`23· history again at a -- at al high level?
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`24· · · A.· ·Sure.· After completing my bachelor's degree, I
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`25· worked briefly at a cancer research lab.· Then at a
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`7
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`·1· testing lab for -- at a blood bank, testing blood for
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`·2· viruses.· Following that, with a water purification
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`·3· company.· And then since 2007, with Arizona in their
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`·4· crime lab, and a couple of years ago, started my own
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`·5· company providing consultation and training on
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`·6· fingerprint matters.
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`·7· · · Q.· ·And can you generally describe your duties at
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`·8· the Arizona crime lab?
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`·9· · · A.· ·Yes.· So I'll receive in items of evidence that
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`10· were collected in relation to some crime and process
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`11· them, looking for fingerprints.· Then capture those,
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`12· either with a photograph or lift tape, to preserve that
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`13· -- to preserve those fingerprints.· And then we'll
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`14· compare those fingerprints to any suspects or victims or
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`15· any other people related to the case.· If there is no
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`16· suspect listed, I'll search those fingerprints through a
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`17· database called an AFIS, Automated Fingerprint
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`18· Identification System.· Also write reports, and then
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`19· occasionally go testify to my work in court.
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`20· · · Q.· ·And you mentioned that you had started your own
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`21· company a couple of years ago.· Can you provide a bit
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`22· more detail of what kind of work your company does?
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`23· · · A.· ·Sure.· So typically, most of the time, it is
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`24· providing training to other forensic professionals on
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`25· fingerprints.· And then occasionally, I've been asked to
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`8
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`·1· -- to provide work or opinions for fingerprint matters
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`·2· to outside the criminal justice system in matters like
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`·3· this.
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`·4· · · Q.· ·I see.· Do you have any training or experience
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`·5· in coating formulations?
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`·6· · · A.· ·No.
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`·7· · · Q.· ·Do you have any training or experience in
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`·8· enzymes?
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`·9· · · A.· ·I -- in general, we touched on that briefly in
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`10· -- in school, and then also working at the blood bank,
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`11· the work done there used something called ELISA, Enzyme
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`12· Linked Immunosorbent Assay.· So in that work, I gained
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`13· some familiarity with --· with enzymes in that antigen
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`14· and antibody system.
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. KHARITON:· Mr. Carpenter, there should
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`16· be a document in your stack of documents -- documents
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`17· that's called Declaration of Eric Ray in Support of
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`18· Petition for Inter Partes Review of U.S. Patent
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`19· 8,394,618 B2.· It doesn't have an exhibit number, but
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`20· would you mind handing that -- or marking that document
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`21· Exhibit 1020, and then handing it to the witness.
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`22· · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· Sure.
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`23· · · · · · · ·(Exhibit 1020 marked for identification.)
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`24· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Mr. Ray, do you -- do you
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`25· recognize the document?
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`9
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`·1· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·2· · · Q.· ·And can you identify it for the record?
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`·3· · · A.· ·Yes.· This is the declaration that I prepared
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`·4· in relation to this matter.
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`·5· · · Q.· ·Let's turn to Paragraph 14 of your declaration,
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`·6· and it begins on Page 5.
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`·7· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·8· · · Q.· ·And then let's, actually, turn to the next
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`·9· page, Page 6, and we're still on Paragraph 14, and then
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`10· at the very top, this is Line 2, it makes reference to a
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`11· person of ordinary skill in the art or a POSITA.· What
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`12· do you mean by a person of ordinary skill in the art
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`13· here?
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`14· · · A.· ·In -- in this context, I'm referring to a
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`15· person in the ordinary skill of the art of the research
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`16· that -- that is being done in relation to this patent.
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`17· So meaning the researching the application of lipases to
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`18· a surface and the subsequent degradation of fingerprint
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`19· components on that surface and any of the -- any of the
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`20· work that would involve researching that matter.
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`21· · · Q.· ·So this is a -- a person of ordinary skill in
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`22· the art, it's a hypothetical person; is that right?
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`23· · · A.· ·That's my understanding of the term, yes.
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`24· · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what kind of education --
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`25· educational background -- excuse me -- might this person
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`10
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`·1· of ordinary skill in the art have?
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`·2· · · A.· ·I'm not sure I would be qualified to comment on
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`·3· the exact educational background that's required. I
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`·4· would not consider myself to be a POSITA in -- in this,
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`·5· because of my lack of experience in lipase-coated
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`·6· surfaces.· However, here my comment is -- involves how a
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`·7· person of ordinary skill in the art of this matter in --
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`·8· in the -- in how it relates to the removal or
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`·9· vaporization of fingerprints would be familiar with all
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`10· of the background information that exists on the
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`11· components of fingerprints and how they degrade or are
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`12· removed over time.
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`13· · · Q.· ·Well, let's turn to Paragraph 15 of your
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`14· declaration -- excuse me -- 15.· And that's -- that's
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`15· the next paragraph.· It's on Page 6.· And so beginning
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`16· at Line 2, you say that, "While fingerprint residue
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`17· components may be changed by degradation and oxidation
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`18· and this affects the visibility of the residue, the
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`19· fingerprint residue leaves the surface solely by
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`20· vaporization."· Do you see that sentence?
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`21· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`22· · · Q.· ·So I'd like to take that in steps.· So first,
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`23· you say here that fingerprint residue components may be
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`24· changed by degradation and oxidation and this affects
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`25· the visibility of the residue.· Can you elaborate on
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`·1· that statement?
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`·2· · · A.· ·Yes.· When a -- when fingerprint residue is
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`·3· initially left on a surface, it is -- may be initially
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`·4· highly visible under many different lighting and surface
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`·5· viewer conditions.· But as those components are changed,
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`·6· they tend to become less visible.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·For example, later on in my declaration, I
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`·8· discuss how the molecules that are of higher molecular
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`·9· weight and also unsaturated tend to be more visible on
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`10· the surface, but the lower molecular weight and
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`11· saturated compounds become less visible.· So that
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`12· degradation, that breakdown of those compounds can
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`13· affect the visibility, meaning become less visible over
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`14· time.
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`15· · · Q.· ·And then you go on to say, in this same
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`16· sentence, "The fingerprint residues leaves the surface
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`17· solely by vaporization."· Do you see that part?
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`18· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`19· · · Q.· ·Do you provide any support here for -- for this
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`20· statement that the fingerprint residue leaves the
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`21· surface solely by vaporization?
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`22· · · A.· ·Well, unless a --
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`23· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection to the extent that
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`24· it asks for information outside the declaration, outside
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`25· the scope.· Go ahead, you can answer.
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`12
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`·1· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
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`·2· · · A.· ·Unless the -- the surface is wiped down or some
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`·3· sort of some -- in some way physically affected to
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`·4· remove those components of the fingerprint residue,
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`·5· there is no other way for the compounds to leave the
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`·6· surface.· They may be broken down into smaller
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`·7· compounds, but they still remain on the surface.· There
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`·8· -- there is no other method of these compounds leaving
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`·9· the surface other than vaporization.· That -- that --
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`10· unless provided with another outside source, that's just
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`11· common knowledge that there is no other method for these
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`12· compounds to leave.
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`13· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) You say that that's common
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`14· knowledge.· Do -- do you cite any evidence here for --
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`15· for this common knowledge?
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`16· · · A.· ·There is no --
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`17· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`18· · · A.· ·This sentence does not have any reference, no.
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`19· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) So to the extent that
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`20· fingerprint residue components are degraded and
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`21· oxidized, those components are broken down into -- into
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`22· other types of compounds, right?
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`23· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`24· · · Q.· ·Is it possible that those compounds would be
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`25· less susceptible to being visualized through, you know,
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`13
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`·1· various dusting techniques like you know, fingerprint
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`·2· powders and the like?
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`·3· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`·4· · · A.· ·The -- over time, the amount of residue is the
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`·5· main factor in whether or not a development method such
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`·6· as fingerprint powder would adhere to the -- the
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`·7· compounds on the surface.· So as those expounds are
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`·8· broken down and some of the resulting compounds are
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`·9· vaporized from the surface, there is then less residue
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`10· on that surface for a developing -- developing method
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`11· like fingerprint powders to adhere.
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`12· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Well, you said that those
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`13· compounds are vaporized from the surface, but even prior
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`14· to them vaporizing from the surface, you know, when
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`15· they're broken down by oxidation or -- I'm sorry -- when
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`16· -- when the original compounds are, you know, degraded
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`17· or oxidized, and then, you know, there -- there are
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`18· various other compounds that are formed as a result of
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`19· that, those degradation or oxidation processes, isn't it
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`20· possible that those compounds, even prior to them
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`21· evaporating, that they would be less susceptible to
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`22· being detected by fingerprint powders?
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`23· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`24· · · A.· ·It's possible that different breakdown products
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`25· react differently to development techniques such as
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`14
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`·1· fingerprint powder.
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`·2· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Well, let's turn to the
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`·3· Paragraph 20 of your declaration, and it begins on
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`·4· Page 9.· Are you there?
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`·5· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·6· · · Q.· ·So I'd like to direct your attention to the
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`·7· third and fourth sentences into -- in this
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`·8· paragraph.· So the -- the third sentence begins with
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`·9· unsaturated -- I'm sorry.· Actually, that's -- that's
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`10· the -- the second sentence.· The -- the third sentence
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`11· begins -- begins with "Romatowski, Attachment B, Page
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`12· 76," and then it continues.· Do you see that sentence?
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`13· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`14· · · Q.· ·Can you please read that sentence out loud into
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`15· the record, as -- as well as the -- the following
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`16· sentence in this paragraph?
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`17· · · A.· ·Yes.· "Unsaturated compounds and compounds with
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`18· higher molecular weight are oxidized or degraded into
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`19· saturated compounds or lower molecular weight compounds.
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`20· Romatowski, Attachment B, Page 76, Table 3.5 86,88,
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`21· describes these lipid components of fingerprint residue
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`22· as being changed by bacterial and epidermal lipases and
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`23· are also being oxidized."
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`24· · · Q.· ·And can you -- can you actually also read the
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`25· -- the following sentence?
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`15
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`·1· · · A.· ·Yes.· "These fingerprint residue components
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`·2· will eventually leave the surface by vaporization after
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`·3· they are degraded or oxidized into more volatile
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`·4· compounds."
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`·5· · · Q.· ·Thank you.· So, yeah, let's -- let's take that
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`·6· in steps.· So at the very top of Page 10, there's a --
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`·7· there's a reference to bacterial and epiderum -- excuse
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`·8· me -- epidermal lipases.· Do you see that?
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`·9· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`10· · · Q.· ·So what's a lipase?
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`11· · · A.· ·A lipase is an enzyme that breaks apart lipids.
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`12· · · Q.· ·And can you define the term of lipid for me?
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`13· · · A.· ·A lipid is an organic molecule.· It's a -- I'd
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`14· have to look up a more specific definition.· But an
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`15· organic molecule -- organic molecule that otherwise is
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`16· known as kind of fat.
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`17· · · Q.· ·Okay.· And does -- are all lipids degraded by
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`18· lipase, or are there some lipids that are not degraded
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`19· by -- by lipase?
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`20· · · A.· ·I'm not an expert in lipases.
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`21· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Object to the extent it calls
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`22· for information outside of his declaration, outside the
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`23· scope.
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`24· · · A.· ·But my understanding is that no, not all
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`25· lipases effect all lipids.
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`16
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`·1· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Do you know the specific
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`·2· mechanism by which a lipase might degrade a lipid?
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`·3· · · A.· ·No.
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`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, scope.
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`·5· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Let -- let's turn to Exhibit
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`·6· 1037.· And Mr. Carpenter, please hand Mr. Ray Exhibit
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`·7· 1037.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·(Exhibit 1037 handed to witness.)
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`·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
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`10· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) So, Mr. Ray, do -- do you
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`11· recognize this exhibit?
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`12· · · A.· ·Yes.· This is a chapter from the book Advances
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`13· in Fingerprint Technology.
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`14· · · Q.· ·And I believe you referenced this exhibit
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`15· earlier in your -- well, you reference it in Paragraph
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`16· 20 from which we just read --
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`17· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · Q.· ·-- is that right?
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`19· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`20· · · Q.· ·So does -- does Romatowski disclose -- and I
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`21· hope I pronounced that correctly.· But does Romatowski
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`22· disclose that lipids, and specifically fingerprint
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`23· lipids, vaporize from the surface after they are
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`24· degraded or oxidized into more volatile compounds?
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`25· · · A.· ·Specifically on Page 76, Romatowski --
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`17
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`·1· · · Q.· ·Page 76.
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`·2· · · A.· ·Yes.· Romatowski describes how lipolysis by
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`·3· enzymes, specifically lipase enzymes, break down
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`·4· triglycerides and methyl esters.· And in the context of
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`·5· the entire chapter, this can also be read as this same
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`·6· action is occurring on fingerprint residue on a surface
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`·7· as well as on the skin before the residue is left on the
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`·8· surface.
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`·9· · · Q.· ·I think you said I believe you said that --
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`10· that last statement that you made is -- is -- you
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`11· inferred it's from the context of the whole document, I
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`12· guess.· Can you point me to any specific part of the
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`13· document that suggests that, you know, this would -- the
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`14· -- the same would be true on the surface of -- the same
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`15· would be true with respect to fingerprint lipids found
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`16· on -- on a natural surface, so fingerprint residue.
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`17· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`18· · · A.· ·Beings that the lipids are the same and in the
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`19· context of this chapter, the extensive information
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`20· provided on -- on lipids is in relation to then the
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`21· composition of lipids on a surface after a fingerprint
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`22· residue has been transferred, and that the enzymes will
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`23· also be transferred on to that surface.· There is no
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`24· reason to believe that -- that the action would not also
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`25· continue once the residue has been transferred from the
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`18
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`·1· skin to the surface.
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`·2· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) But to be clear, you're --
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`·3· you're inferring that, and this document doesn't
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`·4· explicitly state that, is that -- is that correct?
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`·5· · · A.· ·The document specifically states that lipolysis
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`·6· by enzymes occurs from these enzymes whether they're
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`·7· from the epidermis or from bacteria, and that they break
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`·8· down lipids.
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`·9· · · Q.· ·Now, this -- this passage on Page 76, does it
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`10· state that once the triglycerides and methyl esters have
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`11· been broken down by lipase, that the resulting byproduct
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`12· would then evaporate or vaporize from the surface?
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`13· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`14· · · A.· ·The -- the sentence here, this reference here
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`15· does not make reference to the resulting
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`16· compounds.· However, the paper further describes how the
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`17· -- the compounds that make up fingerprint residue change
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`18· over time, specifically, Figures 34A and 34B.
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`19· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Which pages are they on?
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`20· · · A.· ·On Pages 88 and 89.
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`21· · · Q.· ·Thank you.
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`22· · · A.· ·The original and then resulting compounds after
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`23· time is similar to the before and after compounds that
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`24· are affected by these lipase enzymes.· And then again,
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`25· over time, it's referenced in other parts of my
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`19
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`·1· declaration, the resulting compounds, once they become
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`·2· more volatile, will vaporize from the surface.
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`·3· · · Q.· ·Does this document, either on Page 76 or Page
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`·4· 88, state that those resulting compounds would vaporize
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`·5· from the surface?
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`·6· · · A.· ·The -- the statement on Page 76 talks
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`·7· specifically about how lipids are affected by lipase
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`·8· enzymes.· Whether or not the resulting products will
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`·9· vaporize depends on what those products are and the
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`10· vapor pressure, and, you know, other atmospheric
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`11· conditions that those compounds are -- are in.· So there
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`12· wouldn't be a reason to describe those compounds as
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`13· vaporizing after the lipase acts on them.· It would just
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`14· be an inherent property of those resulting compounds --
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`15· of each of those resulting compounds depending on what
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`16· the properties of that compound is and the surrounding
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`17· conditions that those compounds are in.
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`18· · · Q.· ·Would you expect those compounds to vaporize at
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`19· ambient conditions?
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`20· · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Did you say ambient?
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`21· · · Q.· ·Yes.
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`22· · · A.· ·It -- it depends on the compound.· The
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`23· breakdown products of lipids is very broad, and -- and
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`24· some of them may be more volatile than others.· The more
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`25· volatile compounds will tend to leave the surface more
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`20
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`·1· quickly than the less volatile compounds, and some of
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`·2· those compounds may have to undergo multiple
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`·3· degradations or oxidations before reaching a state where
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`·4· they are readily volatile and may vaporize from the
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`·5· surface.
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`·6· · · Q.· ·To the extent that any of those compounds
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`·7· would, in fact, you know, readily vaporize from the
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`·8· surface, would such evaporation necessarily affect the
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`·9· visibility of the fingerprint residue?
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`10· · · A.· ·So yes.· When the compounds vaporize from the
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`11· surface, the -- the volume of the material left behind
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`12· decreases, and with reduced volume or reduced mass of
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`13· the fingerprint residue, there is basically a
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`14· corresponding reduction in the visibility of that
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`15· residue.
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`16· · · Q.· ·Would that depend on the amount of material
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`17· that actually evaporated from the surface?· So, for
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`18· example, if there was only a small amount of material
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`19· that evaporated, would that tend to suggest that the
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`20· visibility of overall sample would not be affected so
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`21· much?
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`22· · · A.· ·In general, that's true, yes.· However, the
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`23· amount of residue is only one aspect of the visibility
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`24· of the fingerprint.· The lighting conditions, the
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`25· position of the surface and the viewer can -- will also
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`21
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`·1· drastically affect the viewability of a print.· Under
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`·2· the right conditions, a freshly-left fingerprint with a
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`·3· high volume will not be visible.· But a print that's
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`·4· been left behind and has sat there and been degraded and
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`·5· has vaporization affect it over a number of weeks, will
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`·6· be suddenly visible if the lighting conditions and the
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`·7· position of the viewer are just right.· So while in
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`·8· general terms, the amount of material does have a great
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`·9· deal to do with it, other conditions can also make a
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`10· print with even a very small amount of material visible.
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`11· · · Q.· ·So in Paragraph 20 of your declaration, you
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`12· also with refer to the Mong reference --
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`13· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`14· · · Q.· ·-- at the very top of your paragraph.
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`15· · · · · · · ·Mr. Carpenter, can you please hand Mr. Ray
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`16· the Mong reference, which is Exhibit 2013.
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`17· · · · · · · ·(Exhibit 2013 handed to witness).
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`18· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Okay.· Got it.
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`19· · · · · · · ·MR. KHARITON:· Good to go?
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`20· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Yes.
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`21· · · Q.· ·(By MR. KHARITON) So Mr. Ray, do you recognize
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`22· the document?
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`23· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`24· · · Q.· ·Can you identify it for the record?
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`25· · · A.· ·Yeah.· This is the Advanced Fingerprint
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`22
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`·1· Analysis Project Fingerprint Constituents, a paper
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`·2· written by Mong, et al.· It's dated September 1999, from
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`·3· the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.
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`·4· · · Q.· ·Thank you.· Now, in your opinion, does Mong
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`·5· disclose that lipid components of fingerprint residue
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`·6· vaporize from the surface?
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`·7· · · A.· ·Mong's paper goes into detail about the
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`·8· degradation of fingerprint residue, and specifically
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`·9· sebaceous material over time, and does not specifically
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`10· reference the effect of lipases on that material.
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`11· · · Q.· ·Well, even putting the effect of lipase on that
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`12· material aside, does this reference indicate anywhere
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`13· that -- that fingerprint lipids vaporize from the
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`14· surface over time?
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`16· · · A.· ·On Page 12 in the second paragraph, it
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`17· demonstrates how the initial experiments were performed
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`18· on glass slides, which indicated loss of up to 85
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`19· percent of the fingerprint's weight, presumably as
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`20· water, over a two-week time frame.· While, you know, the
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`21· presumption is that the majority of that -- of that
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`22· weight is water, the -- there -- there is also some
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`23· lipids being -- or the degradation components of lipids
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`24· also vaporizing over that time frame.
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`25· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Does this sentence explicitly
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`23
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`·1· state that?
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`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Objection, form.
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`·3· · · A.· ·No, this -- this sentence states that up to 85
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`·4· percent of the fingerprint's weight is lost, and does
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`·5· not specify exactly what is being lost in that frame --
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`·6· in that time frame.· But the entire paper describes the
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`·7· complex and varied nature of fingerprint residue as
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`·8· being composed of water and many, many other components.
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`·9· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON) Now, this sentence says that,
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`10· you know, there's -- it says that 85 percent of the
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`11· fingerprint's weight is lost over a two-week time frame,
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`12· and then it states that this 85 percent is presumably
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`13· made up of water.· Does it indicate that any other
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`14· components were present in this 85 percent of the
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`15· fingerprints' weight that were lost over the two week --
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`16· two-week time frame?
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`17· · · A.· ·I read this sentence as meaning that most of
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`18· the 85 percent lost is water, but he does not state
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`19· specifically that all of it is water.· And it would be
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`20· surprising to me, and I believe also to the researcher,
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`21· Mong, here, that all of that material lost is solely
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`22· water.· As I'm reading this line here, he is describing
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`23· how much of that material is lost, but like I said
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`24· before, it -- it would not all be water.
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`25· · · Q.· ·But the -- the author doesn't make that
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`Eric RayEric Ray
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`November 15, 2017November 15, 2017
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`24
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`·1· qualification.· He just says that this 85 percent was
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`·2· presumably water; isn't that right?
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`·3· · · A.· ·That's -- that's the words there are,
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`·4· presumably as water.· If he had meant it to mean all
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`·5· water, I believe he would have done a test to -- to
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`·6· measure exactly what that material being lost is, and
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`·7· then describing it as being some percentage of water and
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`·8· some percentage of other compounds.· But he did not do
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`·9· that.· He just, in the context of this paper, described
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`10· how the -- the loss of material occurs, and in that
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`11· initial two-week time frame, most of the loss is water.
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`12· · · Q.· ·To the extent that this 85 percent included,
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`13· you know, lipid compounds, is there any evidence in this
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`14· paper that those lipid compounds were the degradation
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`15· byproducts of lipase-driven hydrolysis or degradation of
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`16· -- of lipids?
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`17· · · · · · ·
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