`David RozzellDavid Rozzell
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · ·________________________
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`·3
`· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·4· · · · · · · · ·________________________
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`·5
`· · · · · · · · · REACTIVE SURFACES LTD. LLP,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · PETITIONER,
`·7
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · ·TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION,
`·9
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PATENT OWNER.
`10· · · · · · · · · _______________________
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`11· · · · · · · · · · CASE IPR2016-01914
`· · · · · · · · · · Patent No. 8,394,618 B2
`12
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`· · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION OF DR. DAVID ROZZELL
`14· · · · · · · · · ·TUESDAY, JUNE 6, 2017
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`15
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`16· · · ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF DR. DAVID ROZZELL,
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`17 produced as a witness at the instance of the Patent
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`18 Owner, and duly sworn, was taken on the 6th day of June,
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`19 2017, from 9:07 a.m. to 10:33 a.m. before Nancy A.
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`20 Urbanowicz, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for
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`21 the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at
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`22 the Offices of US Legal Support, 701 Brazos Street,
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`23 Suite 380, Austin, Texas, pursuant to the Federal Rules
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`24 of Civil Procedure and provisions stated on the record
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`25 or attached hereto.
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
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`TOYOTA EXHIBIT 2012
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`Reactive Surfaces Ltd. LLP v.
`Toyota Motor Corporation
`IPR2016-01914
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`David RozzellDavid Rozzell
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`June 06, 2017June 06, 2017
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · APPEARANCES
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`·2
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`·3· ·FOR THE PETITIONER:
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`·4· · · · MR. MARK FASSOLD
`· · · · · Watts Guerra, LLP
`·5· · · · 4 Dominion Drive, Building 3
`· · · · · Suite 100
`·6· · · · San Antonio, Texas· 78257
`· · · · · 210.447.0500
`·7· · · · mfassold@wattsguerra.com
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`·8
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`·9· ·FOR THE PATENT OWNERS:
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`10· · · · MESSRS. OLEG KHARITON, JOSHUA LORENTZ
`· · · · · Dinsmore & Shohl, LLP
`11· · · · 225 East Fifth Street
`· · · · · Suite 1900
`12· · · · Cincinnati, Ohio· 45202
`· · · · · 513.977.8200
`13· · · · joshua.lorentz@dinsmore.com
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`15
`· · ALSO PRESENT:
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`· · · · · David Simmons
`17· · · · Jonathan D. Hurt
`· · · · · Rico Reyes
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3 Appearances ......................· · · · · · · · · ·2
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`·4 DR. DAVID ROZZELL
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`·5· · · · · ·- Examination by Mr. Khariton· · · · · · · 5
`· · · · · · ·- Examination by Mr. Fassold· · · · · · · 41
`·6· · · · · ·- Examination by Mr. Khariton· · · · · · ·42
`· · · · · · ·- Examination by Mr. Fassold· · · · · · · 43
`·7
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`·8 Signature and Changes .............· · · · · · · · ·46
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`·9 Reporter's Certificate ............· · · · · · · · ·48
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`10
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
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`12· NO.· · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MARKED
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`13 Exhibit 1010 ....................................· · 7
`· · · · · · Abstract of Dr. Rozzell in Support of
`14· · · · · Petition for US Patent # 8,394,618 B2
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`15 Exhibit 1013 ....................................· ·10
`· · · · · · SPIE Journal Abstract by Buchanan, Asano
`16· · · · · and Bohanon
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`·1· · · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· This begins the oral
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`·2 deposition of Dr. David Rozzell at 9:07 a.m. held in the
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`·3 United States Patent and Trademark office Before the
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`·4 Patent Trial and Appeal Board styled Reactive Surfaces
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`·5 LTD, vs. Toyota Motor Corporation, Cause No.
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`·6 IPR-2016-01914, Patent No. 8,394,618 B2 being taken at
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`·7 the US Legal Support Offices at 701 Brazos Street, Suite
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`·8 380, Austin, Texas 78701.· The court reporter is Nancy
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`·9 Urbanowicz with US Legal Support.
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`10· · · · · · · ·Will counsel please state their
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`11 appearances for the record.
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Mark Fassold on behalf of
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`13 petitioner.
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`14· · · · · · · ·MR. SIMMONS:· David Simmons on behalf of
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`15 petitioner.
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`16· · · · · · · ·MR. HURT:· Jonathan Hurt on behalf of
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`17 petitioner.
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`18· · · · · · · ·MR. REYES:· Rico Reyes on behalf of
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`19 petitioner.
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`20· · · · · · · ·MR. KHARITON:· Oleg Khariton on behalf of
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`21 the patent owner.
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`22· · · · · · · ·MR. LORENTZ:· Josh Lorentz on behalf of
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`23 the patent owner.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·DR. DAVID ROZZELL
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`·2 being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·4 BY MR. KHARITON:
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`·5· · ·Q.· ·All right.· Dr. Rozzell, my name is Oleg
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`·6 Khariton, and I'm an attorney for the patent owner in
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`·7 this proceeding.· I'm going to be taking your deposition
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`·8 today.· Have you ever had your deposition taken before?
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`·9· · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`10· · ·Q.· ·How many times?
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`11· · ·A.· ·Twice.
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`12· · ·Q.· ·And when was the last time?
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`13· · ·A.· ·It would have been about two years and three or
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`14 four months ago.
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`15· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, I'm going to go over a few ground
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`16 rules, so to speak.· I'm going to be asking you a series
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`17 of questions, and the stenographer is going to be taking
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`18 down my questions and your answers.· So let's do our
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`19 best not to talk at the same time because that's going
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`20 to make life difficult for her.
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`21· · · · · · · ·Please answer verbally.· So avoid simply
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`22 nodding or shaking your head.· If you don't understand a
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`23 question, just let me know, and I'll do my best to
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`24 clarify.· If you answer a question, then I'm going to
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`25 assume that you heard it and that you've understood it.
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`·1 Is that fair?
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`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`·3· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· You can answer.
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`·4· · ·A.· ·I just at this point didn't understand the
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`·5 question if you asked one.· The sound quality is not
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`·6 real good.
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`·7· · ·Q.· ·I was just going over a few ground rules.· So I
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`·8 just wanted to know that if I ask a question during this
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`·9 deposition and you answer, then I'm going to assume that
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`10 you heard the question, that you understood it and -- is
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`11 that fair?· Can I assume that?
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`13· · ·A.· ·I -- I understand.· But it's possible that my
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`14 understanding of your intent would be different.· So I'd
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`15 like to, at least with that reservation, say yes.
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`16· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Fair enough.· If you need to
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`17 take a break at any point, just let me know.· And then
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`18 as long as there's not a question pending, we'll take a
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`19 break.· Okay?
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`20· · ·A.· ·Okay.
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`21· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What, if anything, did you do to prepare
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`22 for the deposition today?
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`23· · ·A.· ·I read my declaration, some of the prior art,
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`24 the patent, and spent some time with the attorneys
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`25 yesterday just going through the documents.
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`David RozzellDavid Rozzell
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`·1· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And who did you talk to yesterday?
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`·2· · ·A.· ·Mr. Fassold, Mr. Simmons, Mr. Hurt and
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`·3 Mr. Reyes.
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`·4· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how long did those conversations
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`·5 last, approximately?
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`·6· · ·A.· ·Two or three hours.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. KHARITON:· Okay.· Ms. Urbanowicz, can
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`·8 you please hand Dr. Rozzell the exhibit that's been
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`·9 previously marked as 1010?
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`10· · · · · · · ·(Deposition Exhibit No. 1010 marked)
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`11· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Dr. Rozzell, do you
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`12 recognize this document?
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`13· · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`14· · ·Q.· ·Can you identify it?
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`15· · ·A.· ·It looks like a copy of the declaration that I
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`16 prepared previously for this case.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Can you walk me through your educational
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`18 background briefly?
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`19· · ·A.· ·Sure.· I have a bachelor's of science from the
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`20 University of Virginia in chemistry and a PhD. in
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`21 chemistry from Harvard University.
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`22· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When did you graduate from -- with your
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`23 bachelor's degree?
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`24· · ·A.· ·I graduated from the University of Virginia in
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`25 1978, and my PhD. was awarded in 1983.
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`·1· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And can you also walk me through your
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`·2 professional history briefly?· I know it's quite long,
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`·3 but maybe just give me the highlights.
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`·4· · ·A.· ·Sure.· So my first job was at a biotech company
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`·5 in Boston called the Genetics Institute.· I worked there
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`·6 for approximately six years, and then I joined another
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`·7 biotech company called Celgene Corporation in New
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`·8 Jersey.· I was hired from there to be the VP of R&D for
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`·9 a startup biotech company in California in 1991.· It was
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`10 called XO Gene.· Following XO Gene, I started two
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`11 companies.· First, I cofounded a company with a
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`12 professor called at the time Sulfonics and later changed
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`13 to a different name and then founded my own company
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`14 called BioCatalytics, Inc., in California founded in
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`15 1998.· It developed until about 2007 as a developer and
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`16 seller of specialized enzymes, largely for the
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`17 pharmaceutical industry for the manufacture of various
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`18 kinds of pharmaceutical remediates.
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`19· · · · · · · ·It was acquired in July of 2007 by
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`20 Codexis, Inc.· I stayed on at Codexis, Inc., until, I
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`21 believe, the end of October of 2008 and then began
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`22 working on my own as a consultant.· I spent some time
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`23 with a company developing a toxicity platform looking at
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`24 metabolites and potentially toxic compounds in a high
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`25 throughput streaming format, a company called Solidus,
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`·1 Inc.· And then since that time, I've been consulting and
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`·2 founded my own company called Sustainable Chemistry
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`·3 Solutions, Inc., which is really my consulting business.
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`·4 I write books, publish a newsletter and various
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`·5 informational pieces and occasionally do consulting and
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`·6 expert witness testimony.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·Beginning in August of 2015, I took a
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`·8 full-time position with a company called Provivi, Inc.,
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`·9 based in Santa Monica, California, and we're developing
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`10 pheromones for alternatives for crop protection.
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`11· · ·Q.· ·Okay, okay.· Now, I think you mentioned that
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`12 currently you're acting as a consultant.· What kind of
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`13 consulting do you do?
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`14· · ·A.· ·Now very little.· I do some expert witness work
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`15 and serve on one scientific advisory board for an enzyme
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`16 company.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`18· · ·A.· ·And I continue to publish my newsletters as
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`19 part of my agreement with the company I work for now.
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`20 So I have a monthly newsletter, approximately monthly,
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`21 that I publish on the enzyme industry.
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`22· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you said it's on the enzyme industry?
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`23· · ·A.· ·Correct.· It's called the Enzyme Newsletter,
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`24 catchy name.
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`25· · ·Q.· ·It is.
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`·1· · · · · · · ·MR. KHARITON:· Okay.· Ms. Urbanowicz, can
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`·2 you please hand to Dr. Rozzell the document that's been
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`·3 previously marked as Exhibit 1013?
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`·4· · · · · · · ·(Deposition Exhibit No. 1013 marked)
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`·5· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Dr. Rozzell, do you
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`·6 recognize this document?
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`·7· · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`·8· · ·Q.· ·And can you identify it?
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`·9· · ·A.· ·It is the scientific publication authored by --
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`10 Buchanan is the first author.
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`11· · ·Q.· ·You said it's a publication.· Where was it
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`12 published?
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`13· · ·A.· ·SPIE, which is the name of the journal.
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`14· · ·Q.· ·And do you know -- do you know whether that's
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`15 an acronym of some sort?
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`16· · ·A.· ·I'm sure that it is.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·And do you know what it stands for?
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`18· · ·A.· ·Off the top of my head, I don't.· I don't
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`19 remember.
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`20· · ·Q.· ·Are you generally familiar with periodicals,
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`21 scientific journals and the like that are published,
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`22 that are relevant to the field of enzyme technology?
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`23· · ·A.· ·Generally, yes.
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`24· · ·Q.· ·But you've never -- you have never heard of
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`25 this publication, SPIE?
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`·1· · ·A.· ·It's not a journal I typically read, no.
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`·2· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know when this document was
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`·3 published?· The year?
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`·4· · ·A.· ·It was published -- it's not indicated on the
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`·5 document.· I couldn't tell you without looking further
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`·6 into the background.
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`·7· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Can you please turn to Figure 1 in this
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`·8 article?
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`·9· · ·A.· ·Uh-huh.
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`10· · ·Q.· ·It's on Page 5.
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`11· · ·A.· ·Okay.
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`12· · ·Q.· ·And it looks like there's a graph on that page.
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`13 What does the graph show?
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`14· · ·A.· ·It shows the retention time of various
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`15 components of a mixture that were injected on a
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`16 chromatography column.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the Y axis, as I see, represents
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`18 relative intensity.· What is relative intensity?
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`19· · ·A.· ·It means the relative amount of that product
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`20 that was detected at that particular time.· So the
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`21 higher the peak, the greater the amount of product that
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`22 was found.
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`23· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So just so we're on the same page,
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`24 relative intensity, it represents the proportion of that
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`25 compound in the sample that's being analyzed; is that
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`·1 right, more or less?
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`·2· · ·A.· ·I think that's generally correct, yes.
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`·3· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does relative intensity tell us anything
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`·4 about the actual quantity of the compound in the sample
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`·5 in absolute terms?
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`·6· · ·A.· ·It's not highly quantitative if that's what you
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`·7 are asking, no.· But it generally relates --
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`·8· · ·Q.· ·Can you elaborate on that?
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`·9· · ·A.· ·It generally relates to the mass of one
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`10 compound to the mass of the other.· So it does give you
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`11 a general sense of the relative amounts of compound that
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`12 are there.
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`13· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what is the sample that is being
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`14 analyzed in Figure 1?
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`15· · ·A.· ·It was a profile for the extract of the
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`16 fingertip of a four-year-old male.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now let's turn back to Page 2 for a
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`18 second.· Specifically, let's look at the section under
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`19 the Sample Preparation heading.
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`20· · ·A.· ·Okay.
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`21· · ·Q.· ·And then if you please, go down to -- I think
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`22 it's Line 5.· There's a sentence that begins with "to
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`23 obtain a sample."· Do you see that sentence?
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`24· · ·A.· ·I see that, yes.
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`25· · ·Q.· ·Can you please read it into the record?
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`·1· · ·A.· ·"To obtain a sample, the subject placed a
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`·2 fingertip on top of the vial and shook the rubbing
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`·3 alcohol against the fingertip for one minute."· Should I
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`·4 continue?
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`·5· · ·Q.· ·So it looks like the -- I'm sorry?
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`·6· · ·A.· ·Shall I continue?
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`·7· · ·Q.· ·No, no.· That was good.· Thank you.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·So it looks like they were using -- the
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`·9 authors were using rubbing alcohol to extract certain
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`10 components from a subject's fingertip; is that right?
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`11· · ·A.· ·That's the way I would read it, yes.
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`12· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, would you expect this method of
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`13 extraction to result in the extraction of all or only
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`14 some of the components that might be found on a
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`15 subject's fingertip?
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`16· · ·A.· ·It would extract the components that would be
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`17 soluble in rubbing alcohol.
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`18· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what about the compounds that are
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`19 not soluble in rubbing alcohol?
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`20· · ·A.· ·Then you would be unlikely to get many of those
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`21 components if any.
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`22· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does the article say what the rubbing
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`23 alcohol used in these tests was composed of?
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`24· · ·A.· ·In that sentence I just read, it does not.· If
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`25 there were a materials and methods section, I would look
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`·1 to that to see if they described what was used.
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`·2· · ·Q.· ·You can feel free to take a moment to look at
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`·3 the document to see if that information is there.
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`·4· · ·A.· ·The question, again, just to make sure I
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`·5 understand is, do they define what rubbing alcohol is?
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`·6· · ·Q.· ·Yes, yes.· That's the question.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·(Brief pause)
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`·8· · ·A.· ·I don't see that they did.
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`·9· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the way I understand it, it's that a
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`10 person's fingertip contains various chemical substances;
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`11 is that right?
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`13· · ·A.· ·Could you describe again what you're asking?
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`14· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· So if we were to look at a
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`15 person's fingertip, we would find various chemical
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`16 substances present on the fingertip; is that right?
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`17· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`18· · ·A.· ·Again, can you be more specific as to what
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`19 substances you might be looking for?
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`20· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· I was just -- I'm just
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`21 asking whether there are any chemical substances that
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`22 might be found on a person's fingertip.· I'm not asking
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`23 about any specific chemical substances.· I'm just asking
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`24 whether chemical substances might be found on a person's
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`25 fingertip?
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`·1· · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·2· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when a person touches a surface with
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`·3 that fingertip, some of those chemical substances are
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`·4 transferred onto the surface or are deposited onto the
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`·5 surface, and that's what creates, you know, the
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`·6 fingerprint, so to speak; is that right?
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`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`·8· · ·A.· ·Generally, yes, I think so.
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`·9· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· You think so?· You're not
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`10 sure if that's the case?
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`11· · ·A.· ·I can --
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`13· · ·A.· ·-- assume that's what happens.
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`14· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Okay.· Are there any
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`15 chemical substances that would be found on a person's
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`16 fingertip that would not be deposited on the surface
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`17 after the person touched the surface with that finger?
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`18· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`19· · ·A.· ·I don't know.
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`20· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Okay.· Isn't it true that
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`21 the chemical composition of the samples -- specifically
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`22 the sample that is being analyzed in Figure 1 in
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`23 Buchanan.· Isn't it true that the chemical composition
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`24 of that sample might differ from the chemical
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`25 composition of an actual fingerprint that's left on a
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`16
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`·1 surface after the person touches the surface?
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`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`·3· · ·A.· ·It's certainly possible.· It's -- it's possible
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`·4 that a fingerprint gives you a representative of the
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`·5 chemical composition of what's on the tip of that
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`·6 finger.· It's possible some substances might be
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`·7 transferred in preference, and I just don't know.
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`·8· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Okay.· Does the article
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`·9 describe the total quantity of the sample that's being
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`10 analyzed in Figure 1?
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`11· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`12· · ·A.· ·What do you mean by "total quantity"?
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`13· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· For example, the weight of
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`14 the sample.
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`16· · ·A.· ·It simply says that after the fingertip was
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`17 extracted with rubbing alcohol that the sample was
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`18 concentrated to a small volume, and that volume was 50
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`19 to 100 microliters.
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`20· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Can you point me to where it
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`21 says that?
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`22· · ·A.· ·Could you repeat the question, please?
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`23· · ·Q.· ·Can you please point me to where in the
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`24 article --
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`25· · ·A.· ·Point to where it says that?
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`17
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`·1· · ·Q.· ·Yes.
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`·2· · ·A.· ·It's in Section 2.1 under Sample Preparation,
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`·3 the fourth line from the bottom.
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`·4· · ·Q.· ·I see.
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`·5· · ·A.· ·It says, "concentrated under a small stream of
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`·6 argon gas until approximately 50 to 100 microliters of
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`·7 solution remained."
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`·8· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does the article discuss the quantity of
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`·9 the material that was extracted from a child's -- from
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`10 the subject's fingertip to create the sample -- the
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`11 sample that's being analyzed in Figure 1?
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`13· · ·A.· ·It simply tells you the volume of the extract
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`14 that was used in -- for the injection on the
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`15 chromatograph.
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`16· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Okay.· So I think the
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`17 child -- the subject from whom the sample was extracted
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`18 in Figure 1, that was a four-year-old child; is that
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`19 right?
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`20· · ·A.· ·That's what it says.
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`21· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know whether -- if you were to
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`22 take an average four-year-old and an average adult,
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`23 whether the total quantity of various chemical
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`24 substances that might be present on a four-year-old
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`25 child's fingertip would be less or more than the
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`18
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`·1 quantity of chemical substances that might be present on
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`·2 an adult's fingertip?
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`·3· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`·4· · ·A.· ·I don't know.
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`·5· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Now, the sample that's being
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`·6 analyzed in Figure 1, that's just one sample out of 50
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`·7 or so that were tested by the authors; is that right?
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`·8· · ·A.· ·Yes, I believe so.
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`·9· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And does the article discuss anywhere
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`10 the average amount of various components and chemical
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`11 substances that would have been found on children's
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`12 fingertips?
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`13· · ·A.· ·It only would say that it looks like all the
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`14 samples were prepared in the same manner:· So extraction
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`15 for one minute by shaking with the fingertip and then
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`16 concentrating the solution down to a volume of about 50
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`17 to 100 microliters.
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`18· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with the term "internal
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`19 standard" or "internal standards" as that term relates
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`20 to gas chromatography or mass spectrometry analysis?
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`21· · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`22· · ·Q.· ·Can you describe what that term means?
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`23· · ·A.· ·Yes.· You put a known amount of a substance
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`24 into your sample, and you could use that as a reference
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`25 point.· Since you know the amount of that substance you
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`19
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`·1 added, you can then estimate with some accuracy the
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`·2 amount of the other substances that are present by their
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`·3 relative peak heights that you see on the chromatogram.
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`·4· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And does this article in the Sample
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`·5 Preparation section or anywhere else -- does it discuss
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`·6 the use of any internal standards in the analysis that
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`·7 was performed here?
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`·8· · ·A.· ·Let me just read quickly here to see if it
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`·9 does.
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`10· · ·Q.· ·Take your time.
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`11· · ·A.· ·I don't see that they used an internal
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`12 standard --
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`13· · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`14· · ·A.· ·-- in my quick read through the article.
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`15· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with the term "external
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`16 standard" or "external standards" as that term relates
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`17 to gas chromatography and mass spectrometry?
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`18· · ·A.· ·An external standard?
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`19· · ·Q.· ·Correct.
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`20· · ·A.· ·No.· Could you explain what you mean?
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`21· · ·Q.· ·Well, I think my understanding of the term is
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`22 that it's simply -- instead of an internal standard
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`23 where you will add a component to the sample, with an
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`24 external standard, you simply use another sample --
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`25 known sample containing known amounts of various
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`20
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`·1 compounds.· And you compare that sample to the sample
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`·2 that you are testing to determine that the relative
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`·3 intensities of the various items are in the sample.
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`·4· · ·A.· ·Right.
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`·5· · ·Q.· ·You simply use that as a reference point.
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`·6· · ·A.· ·Okay.
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`·7· · ·Q.· ·As best as you can tell, does the article
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`·8 discuss the use of any external standards in the
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`·9 analysis that was performed here?
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`10· · ·A.· ·Let me look just quickly to see.
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`11· · ·Q.· ·Again, take your time.
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`12· · ·A.· ·I don't see that they did.
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`13· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's turn -- let's look at the first
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`14 paragraph in the Results and Discussions section that
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`15 begins on Page 2.
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`16· · ·A.· ·Okay.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·And if you go down to Line 4, there's a
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`18 sentence in the middle of that line that begins with,
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`19 "the early eluting peaks."· Do you see that sentence?
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`20· · ·A.· ·I see that.
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`21· · ·Q.· ·Can you please read that sentence and only that
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`22 sentence into the record?
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`23· · ·A.· ·Okay.· "The early eluting peaks are composed
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`24 primarily from long chain carboxylic acids having from
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`25 12 (C12) to more than 26 (C26) carbons including
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`21
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`·1 palmitic and stearic acids."
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`·2· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.· Does the article explain how
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`·3 the authors were able to determine that those early
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`·4 peaks were composed from those compounds?
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`·5· · ·A.· ·Again, let me look quickly to see.
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`·6· · ·Q.· ·Please do.
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`·7· · ·A.· ·I don't see that they provided detail of how
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`·8 they identified those peaks.
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`·9· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Can you please read the next sentence as
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`10 well?
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`11· · ·A.· ·Yes.· "Because the samples were methylated,
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`12 these compounds were detected as methyl esters of the
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`13 acids."
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`14· · ·Q.· ·So when it says that the samples were
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`15 methylated, do you have an understanding of what that
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`16 means?
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`17· · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · ·Q.· ·Can you explain?
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`19· · ·A.· ·Yes.· So the carboxylic acids would typically
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`20 be made easier to run on a chromatogram -- on a gas
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`21 chromatograph by treating them first with what we call a
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`22 derivatizing agent.· That derivatizing agent converts
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`23 the carboxylic acid to a methyl ester.· And it makes
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`24 them easier to visualize and separate on a gas
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`25 chromatography column.
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`22
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`·1· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And does methylating a component in a
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`·2 sample result in increased volatility of that component
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`·3 compared to the same component that is unmethylated?
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`·4· · ·A.· ·Could you repeat that question, please? I
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`·5 didn't fully understand.
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`·6· · ·Q.· ·Yes.· Does methylating a component result in
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`·7 increased volatility of that component compared to the
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`·8 same component that is unmethylated?
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`·9· · ·A.· ·It depends on the component, but if it's a
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`10 carboxylic acid, generally yes.
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`11· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Now, the sample in Figure 1, the article
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`12 describes how it was subjected to gas chromatography and
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`13 mass spectrometry.· Does the article indicate anywhere
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`14 that that sample or any of the other 50 samples -- or
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`15 approximately 50 samples that were collected -- that any
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`16 of them were subjected to real-world environmental
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`17 conditions that an actual fingerprint might be subjected
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`18 to --
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`19· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`20· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· -- in terms of temperature
`
`21 or heat or anything like that?
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`22· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`23· · ·A.· ·"Real world"?· Could you explain what you mean
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`24 by that?
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`25· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Yeah.· So when a person
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`23
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`·1 touches a surface with his or her hand in the real world
`
`·2 and leaves a fingerprint, you know, that fingerprint is
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`·3 subjected to various environmental conditions like the
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`·4 temperature, like ultraviolet light.· Did the authors of
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`·5 this article -- first of all, do you agree with me that
`
`·6 that's generally true?
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`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`·8· · ·A.· ·I didn't hear the end of your question.· Again,
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`·9 could you repeat that, please?
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`10· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Do you agree with me that
`
`11 it's generally true that a fingerprint left by a person
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`12 on a surface would generally be subjected to various
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`13 external factors like temperature, ultraviolet light and
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`14 so forth?
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· Objection, form.
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`16· · ·A.· ·It depends where the fingerprint was left.· It
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`17 varies, I'm sure, considerably from one to another.
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`18· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· So it depends on the
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`19 environment in which the fingerprint is left; is that
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`20 right?
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`21· · ·A.· ·I assume so, yes.
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`22· · ·Q.· ·And did the authors of this article attempt to
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`23 simulate or replicate those type of conditions in their
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`24 tests?
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`25· · ·A.· ·No.· They simply used laboratory conditions.
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`24
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`·1· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What is oxidation?
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`·2· · ·A.· ·It's chemically converting a compound from a
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`·3 lower to a higher oxidation state.· Usually, it means
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`·4 removing electrons and forming, for example,
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`·5 unsaturation sites or adding oxygen to a molecule.
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`·6· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And does ultraviolet light cause
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`·7 oxidation?
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`·8· · ·A.· ·Not by itself, according to my understanding,
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`·9 no.· It would have to be in the presences of oxygen for
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`10 that to happen.
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`11· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So if a fingerprint was left outside,
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`12 it's possible that some of the components in the
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`13 fingerprint might be oxidized; is that right?
`
`14· · ·A.· ·It's possible.
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. FASSOLD:· I object to the form of the
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`16 last question.
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`17· · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. KHARITON)· Does -- does heat
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`18 temperature cause oxidation?
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`19· · ·A.· ·Does heat cause oxidation?· That was the
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`20 question?
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`21· · ·Q.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · ·A.· ·No, not by itself.
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`23· · ·Q.· ·What else is needed?· When you say, "not by
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`24 itself," what do you mean?
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`25· · ·A.· ·So heat, ultraviolet light, any kind of
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`25
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`·1 condition you apply to a substance can't cause oxidation
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`·2 without an oxidizing environment -- for example,
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`·3 molecular oxygen being present or some oxidizing agent.
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`·4· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Understood.· Let's turn to Page 1 of
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`·5 this article.· Are you there?
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`·6· · ·A.· ·Page 1?· Yes, I'm there.
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`·7· · ·Q.· ·Yes.· And let's look at the very last paragraph
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`·8 on that page.· It looks like that paragraph describes
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`·9 earlier studies or a study that the authors have
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`10 conducted.· If you need to take a moment to read the
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`11 paragraph, please do.· But I just wanted to ask you to
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`12 summarize the earlier study that's described here.
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`13· · ·A.· ·Okay.· I'll read the paragraph and tell you
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`14 when I'm done.
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`15· · ·Q.· ·Please do.
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`16· · · · · · · ·(Brief pause)
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`17· · ·A.· ·Okay.· I'm finished.
`
`18· · ·Q.· ·Go ahead.· Sorry.· I'll ask the question again.
`
`19 Can you please summarize the earlier study that was
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`20 described in this paragraph?
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`21· · ·A.· ·So the paragraph is describing observations
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`22 that were made by fingerprint experts in which they
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`23 observed that the fingerprints of children seemed to
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`24 disappear faster than the fingerprints of adults.
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`25· · ·Q.· ·And how were they able to observe that?
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