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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________________________________________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________________________________________
`CANON INC., ET AL.
`Petitioners,
`
`v.
`
`PAPST LICENSING GMBH & CO. KG,
`Patent Owner.
`_________________
`
`Patent 8,504,746
`Cases IPR2016-01200; 01211; -01213
`
`Patent 8,966,144
` Cases IPR2016-01199; -01212; -01214; -01216; -01225
`_________________
`
`DEPOSITION OF THOMAS A. GAFFORD
`Chicago, Illinois
`Wednesday, May 31, 2017
`
`Reported by:
`PAULA CAMPBELL, CSR, RDR, CRR, CRC
`JOB NO. 123560
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 1
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________________________________________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________________________________________
`CANON INC., ET AL.
`Petitioners,
`
`v.
`
`PAPST LICENSING GMBH & CO. KG,
`Patent Owner.
`_________________
`
`Patent 8,504,746
`Cases IPR2016-01200; 01211; -01213
`
`Patent 8,966,144
` Cases IPR2016-01199; -01212; -01214; -01216; -01225
`_________________
`
`DEPOSITION OF THOMAS A. GAFFORD
`Chicago, Illinois
`Wednesday, May 31, 2017
`
`Reported by:
`PAULA CAMPBELL, CSR, RDR, CRR, CRC
`JOB NO. 123560
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Ex 1016, p. 1
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`
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`Page 2
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`May 31, 2017
`9:15 A.M.
`
`Discovery deposition of THOMAS A.
`GAFFORD, held at the offices of FITCH EVEN
`TABIN & FLANNERY, LLP, 120 South LaSalle
`Street, Chicago, Illinois, pursuant to notice
`before Paula Campbell, CSR, RDR, CRR, CRC.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Ex 1016, p. 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
` FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
` Attorneys for the Patent Owner
`120 South LaSalle Street
`Chicago, Illinois 60603
` BY: PAUL HENKELMANN, ESQ.
`
` JONES DAY
` Attorneys for the Nikon parties
`77 West Wacker
`Chicago, Illinois 60601
` BY: MARC BLACKMAN, ESQ.
`JONATHAN KIM, ESQ.
`
` ORRICK HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE
` Attorneys for the Fujifilm parties
`1152 15th Street, N.W.
`Washington, D.C. 20005
` BY: T. VANN PEARCE, JR., ESQ.
`
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`Ex 1016, p. 3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
` MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS
` Attorneys for the Olympus parties
`1601 Cloverfield Boulevard
`Santa Monica, California 90404
` BY: ANDREW DEVKAR, ESQ.
`
` JONES DAY
` Attorneys for the Canon parties
`901 Lakeside Avenue
`Cleveland, Ohio 44114
` BY: DAVID MAIORANA, ESQ.
`
` JEFFER MANGELS BUTLER & MITCHELL
` Attorneys for the Panasonic and JVCKenwood parties
`1900 Avenue of the Stars
`Los Angeles, California 90067
` BY: RACHEL CAPOCCIA, ESQ.
`GREGORY CORDREY, ESQ.
`
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`Ex 1016, p. 4
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`Page 5
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
` DRINKER BIDDLE & REATH
` Attorneys for the Samsung parties
`191 North Wacker Drive
`Chicago, Illinois 60606
` BY: CARRIE BEYER, ESQ.
`REEYA THAKRAR, ESQ.
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`Paul Reynolds, Petitioners' expert
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`Ex 1016, p. 5
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`Page 6
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`REPORTER: Would you please raise your
` right hand.
`T H O M A S A. G A F F O R D,
` called as a witness, having been duly sworn,
` was examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`BY MS. CAPOCCIA:
`Q.
`Good morning, Mr. Gafford. I know that
`you've had your deposition taken before, so I'm
`going to assume you know how this works. If that's
`wrong and you have any questions, please let us
`know, but otherwise, we will just proceed.
`Is there any reason why you can't give your
`best and true testimony today?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`I am going to start asking you questions
`about two of the IPRs that are at issue here,
`numbers 1214 and 1213, and they involve the Yamamoto
`reference. I'm going to give you a copy of this
`document that's been marked Gafford Exhibit 1.
`(Gafford Exhibit 1 marked for
` identification.)
`Q.
`And this is a copy of United States Patent
`6,088,532. And if I refer to this as Yamamoto, will
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 6
`
`
`
`Page 7
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`
`that be okay?
`A.
`There is Yamamoto 2, is there not?
`Q.
`There is, and this is the main Yamamoto
`reference.
`Do you recognize it?
`Yes.
`A.
`Okay. So if I refer to this as Yamamoto,
`Q.
`can we agree?
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`Yes?
`A.
`Right.
`MR. HENKELMANN: Can I have a copy too.
`BY MS. CAPOCCIA:
`Q.
`So, Mr. Gafford, you prepared an expert
`declaration in support of Papst's patent owner
`response with respect to the IPRs related to this
`reference; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And you have reviewed this reference
`before?
`A.
`Q.
`A.
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`And when was the last time you reviewed it?
`Yesterday.
`And how long did you spend reviewing it
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 7
`
`
`
`Page 8
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`
`yesterday?
`A.
`I don't recall how much time I spent on
`
`this.
`
`Did you read the whole thing?
`Q.
`Not all of it yesterday.
`A.
`But some of it?
`Q.
`Yes.
`A.
`If you turn to the block diagram,
`Q.
`Figure 30, sorry, and do you understand Figure 30 to
`be a block diagram of the still video camera
`described in the Yamamoto patent?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And is it your opinion that somebody of
`ordinary skill in the art would understand that
`system control circuit 20 in the middle of this
`block diagram controls the still video camera
`operation as a whole?
`A.
`If this is going to be a memory test as to
`how I expressed this in my report, I may not be able
`to give you my best answer, but my opinion what 20
`does is it handles the button pushing.
`Q.
`If you turn to column 6 of the patent,
`please, and look at lines 7 through 10 that start
`with "Figure 2 is a block diagram..."
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 8
`
`
`
`Page 9
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`Do you see that?
`I didn't know, is there a question pending?
`A.
`I just want to know if you've read that to
`Q.
`yourself now?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And so, does this -- looking at this
`statement in the patent, would somebody of ordinary
`skill in the art read that to understand that the
`system control circuit 20 is -- controls the still
`video camera as a whole?
`A.
`I think one of ordinary skill upon reading
`this would read the balance of the disclosure to
`seek what the inventor means by "as a whole." It's
`a very broad statement.
`Q.
`But, generally speaking, you would agree
`that someone of ordinary skill in the art would
`understand that the system control circuit 20
`controls the still video camera as a whole?
`A.
`No.
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection. Asked and
` answered.
`A.
`That's actually not my answer. I will give
`my answer again. One of ordinary skill would read
`the patent to understand what the inventor means by
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 9
`
`
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`Page 10
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`
`"as a whole."
`MS. CAPOCCIA: I'm going to mark as
` Gafford 2 a copy of this document, please.
`(Gafford Exhibit 2 marked for
` identification.)
`BY MS. CAPOCCIA:
`Q.
`This is a copy of -- actually, Mr. Gafford,
`is this a copy of your declaration that you
`submitted with respect to IPR2016-1214?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Did you prepare this declaration yourself?
`A.
`Yes, most of it.
`Q.
`Did you prepare -- did you write the first
`draft?
`I wrote the first draft of all the
`A.
`positions and worked with attorneys to assemble them
`into the report as a whole, and then kicked the
`draft back and forth until it was complete.
`Q.
`And did you review the patent owner
`response as well that was submitted along with this
`declaration?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`You've never seen it?
`A.
`You mean the brief that accompanies this?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 10
`
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`
`Page 11
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`Right.
`And since that time have you reviewed it as
`
`Yes.
`Q.
`I may have discussed parts of it since
`A.
`filing, but I didn't review it as a whole.
`Q.
`And just to be clear, you didn't review it
`as a whole before all these documents were filed;
`correct?
`A.
`Q.
`a whole?
`No.
`A.
`I'm going to ask you to look at a couple
`Q.
`different parts of the patent at the same time, so
`maybe it will be easiest to -- to unstaple or remove
`the staple.
`And now, could you get the Figure 30 block
`diagram again, sort of set that off to the side.
`A.
`(Witness complies.)
`Q.
`Okay. And then I'm going to ask you to
`look at column 7, please. And starting with lines
`54 of column 7, there is a sentence which starts
`with "The recording device control circuit 66..."
`Do you see that?
`Yes.
`Can you just read that -- that couple of
`
`A.
`Q.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 11
`
`
`
`Page 12
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`sentences there to yourself, please.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`So this section of column 7 describes items
`that are shown on Figure 30, items 66 and 67;
`correct?
`Yes.
`A.
`And do you see those on Figure 30?
`Q.
`Yes.
`A.
`And so, would -- somebody of ordinary skill
`Q.
`in the art would understand from reading that
`section that you just read, column 7, lines 54 to
`roughly 60, as saying that item 66, the recording
`device control circuit, and item 67, the image
`recording device, can be separately attached to the
`bottom of the Yamamoto still video camera; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And in Figure 30 it also shows hard
`drive -- excuse me -- hard disk 71.
`Do you see that?
`Yes.
`A.
`And hard disk 71 is described as being
`Q.
`mounted in image recording device 67.
`Do you recall that --
`I've seen that.
`
`A.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 12
`
`
`
`Page 13
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`Q.
`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`-- or do you agree with that? Okay.
`So, then, this entire section, items 66,
`67, and 71, can be separately attached or detached
`from the Yamamoto still video camera; correct?
`Somebody of ordinary skill in the art would
`understand that; right?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Would somebody of ordinary skill in the art
`also understand that hard disk 71 could be any type
`of hard disk that was available at that time;
`correct?
`I don't believe the disclosure teaches any
`A.
`restriction on the type of device that could be
`used.
`
`So somebody of ordinary skill in the art
`Q.
`would understand that it could be any type of hard
`drive that was available at the time; correct?
`A.
`Yes, other than any type that would
`physically fit, I think, would be the -- the only
`restriction that is suggested by the specification.
`Q.
`And so, it's not -- somebody of ordinary
`skill in the art would not read this patent as
`requiring that the hard disk be a separately
`attachable SCSI disk, would they?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 13
`
`
`
`Page 14
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`Well, you said two things there that I
`A.
`think the -- the separately attachable is -- is
`suggested by the specification, and I don't think
`SCSI is required. It's certainly the simplest
`choice for a disk to accompany this camera.
`Q.
`And is it the simplest choice of a disk to
`accompany this camera if you assume that the disk is
`separately attachable to an external computer?
`A.
`As a matter of fact, it probably would be,
`because the -- of the variety of disk interfaces
`available. The SCSI interface is the only one that
`defines a shielded cable type of connection so that
`the disk could be connected in a way that doesn't
`violate the emissions limits for personal computer
`gear, although it could also be stuck into a slot.
`I guess the -- whether or not it's SCSI
`doesn't have a lot to do with whether it's easily
`used with a -- another computer or not.
`Q.
`Would somebody of ordinary skill in the
`art -- no, strike that.
`Someone of ordinary skill in the art
`reading this patent would not understand that hard
`disk 61 must be separately attachable to another
`computer; correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 14
`
`
`
`Page 15
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`You mean 71, I think.
`I do mean 71. If I said 61, that was a
`
`A.
`Q.
`mistake.
`Well, there is no requirement that it be
`A.
`attachable to another machine, directly attachable
`to another machine.
`Q.
`And if it were directly attachable to
`another machine, it would need its own power supply,
`would it not?
`A.
`Not in the normal course of how these
`things are done. Typically small drives are
`themselves packaged as a pluggable module, and they
`expect to receive power through the same connection
`that they use to connect to the data port of a -- of
`any device that they might be used with.
`Q.
`Would a separately attachable SCSI disk,
`and by separately attachable I mean one you could
`unplug from the camera and then go and plug into the
`external computer, would a SCSI disk that's
`separately attachable, as the way I've just
`described it, typically have its own power supply,
`or require its own power supply?
`A.
`I'm not -- I better make sure I understand
`what you mean by "its own" before I answer your
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 15
`
`
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`Page 16
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`question. Perhaps if you could be more specific
`about what you mean by "its own."
`Q.
`I think what I mean is can -- I hope I'm
`going to use the right term -- but can the SCSI
`connection provide power?
`A.
`There is a type of SCSI connection that
`
`can.
`
`Is it a specialized type of SCSI?
`Q.
`No, it's very widely available. It's
`A.
`called the SCA -- SCA80 connector, which
`accommodates the SCSI signal lines and power for
`modularly replaceable SCSI drives.
`Q.
`To go back to -- for a minute to the, I
`need a name for it, the unit of the item 67, 66, and
`71, perhaps we could call that the detachable
`storage unit. Is that okay?
`A.
`For now, sure.
`Q.
`So the detachable storage unit of the
`Yamamoto still video camera could have a hard disk
`that's internal to that storage unit; correct?
`A.
`That would depend on the mechanical aspect
`of the disclosure of those elements, and I've spent
`no time looking at that. So answering your question
`will require a bit of research.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 16
`
`
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`Page 17
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`Can I hear the question again, please?
`(Record was read as requested.)
`That's not ruled out by this disclosure,
`A.
`but the disclosure also suggests at the bottom of
`column 22 through part-way down column 23 that
`the -- that the disk 71 itself may be removable from
`all the other apparatus.
`Q.
`Looking at column 23, column 23 in general
`is discussing the operation when an external
`computer is connected to the camera; correct?
`A.
`Well, column 23 covers a lot of ground.
`That's one thing it mentions.
`Q.
`And you see in column 23, at least from
`roughly lines 4 through 43, that it references a
`number of commands in capital letters.
`Do you see those?
`Yes.
`A.
`And one of ordinary skill in the art would
`Q.
`understand those are SCSI interface commands;
`correct?
`Well, yes.
`A.
`So if you look at the first full paragraph
`Q.
`in column 23, which starts at line 4, that paragraph
`through lines 13 is referencing how the Yamamoto
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 17
`
`
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`Page 18
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`T. A. GAFFORD
`still video camera responds to a SCSI inquiry
`command; correct?
`A.
`In the case when it's used as a scanner by
`the external computer.
`Q.
`Okay. Fair enough.
`And in that case when responding to the
`SCSI inquiry command, one of ordinary skill in the
`art would understand that system control circuit 20
`is involved in that process; correct?
`A.
`I don't know what you mean by "involved."
`Nothing about 20 is discussed in this -- in the text
`that you had me read.
`Q.
`So if you look at the next full
`paragraph -- sorry. I've just got to find my place
`here.
`
`In the section that talks about the inquiry
`command, the still video camera has to determine
`whether the scanner mode has been set; correct?
`A.
`There is two areas here that discuss
`inquiry where you're focusing.
`Q.
`But that's one of the things it does, is
`determine whether the scanner mode is set?
`A.
`Now I have lost your pronoun reference.
`Maybe you had better ask the question again.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 18
`
`
`
`Page 19
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`In this paragraph in column 23 that we were
`Q.
`talking about, starting with lines 4 and continuing
`to lines 22, in that paragraph when it talks about
`how the Yamamoto still video camera responds to the
`SCSI inquiry command, one of the things it has to do
`is determine whether the scan mode has been set;
`correct?
`
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection to form.
`Yes.
`A.
`And if you look at Figure 30, Figure 30
`Q.
`shows an item called the scan mode switch.
`Do you see that?
`No.
`A.
`It is -- I'm sorry. I think I have said it
`Q.
`wrong. It's the scan start switch, and I think it's
`item 16.
`
`Do you see that?
`I see that.
`A.
`And is it your understanding that someone
`Q.
`of ordinary skill in the art would understand that
`the system control circuit determines whether the
`scan mode is set?
`A.
`As I said before, the system control
`circuit is in charge of buttons, so it's going to be
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 19
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`aware of whatever switch positions the user has set,
`including scan mode.
`Q.
`So, then, your answer to my question is
`yes --
`Yes.
`A.
`-- the system control circuit would
`Q.
`determine whether the scan mode is set?
`A.
`Yes. I should clarify, because it might
`produce some confusion in the record, that I don't
`think has anything to do with the scan start switch.
`Q.
`Oh, I'm sorry. Do you think it's the mode
`switch 19?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`I think you're correct.
`And just to clarify the record, then, the
`system control circuit determines whether the scan
`mode is set using mode switch 19; correct?
`A.
`I think that's correct.
`Q.
`So back to the section we were looking at
`at column 23 regarding the inquiry command, I had
`asked a few minutes ago whether the system control
`circuit is involved in the process of the Yamamoto
`still video camera responding to the inquiry
`command. Would somebody of ordinary skill in the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 20
`
`
`
`Page 21
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`art understand that it is?
`A.
`I think it -- yes, I think it would be
`involved with responding to the inquiry command.
`Q.
`Later in this portion of column 23, in the
`next full paragraph that starts at around line 30
`and continues through roughly line 43, do you see
`that?
`
`Yes.
`A.
`It refers to a couple different SCSI
`Q.
`commands, one is read capacity and one is format
`unit.
`
`Do you see those?
`Yes.
`A.
`And one of ordinary skill in the art would
`Q.
`understand that those commands are ones that would
`be used when accessing a SCSI hard drive; correct?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection to form.
`They are commands that are in -- that would
`A.
`be recognized by a SCSI hard drive, for example.
`Q.
`And so, in this paragraph as well, the one
`starting in column [sic] 30 and going through column
`42, this paragraph now is referring to when the
`Yamamoto still video camera is in hard disk mode as
`opposed to scan mode; correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 21
`
`
`
`Page 22
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`Yeah, as it states in the second line. You
`A.
`said column, but I think you meant line.
`Q.
`And here it also refers again to the
`inquiry command; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And so, once again, one of ordinary skill
`in the art would understand that the system control
`circuit is involved in responding to the inquiry
`command in this hard drive mode as well as in scan
`mode; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`The two commands that are identified there,
`read capacity and format unit, those are just
`examples of SCSI commands that can be used with hard
`disk 71; correct?
`A.
`Yes, they are introduced with the phrase
`"such as."
`Q.
`And so, the Yamamoto still video camera
`could handle other SCSI commands besides these with
`respect to hard disk 71; correct?
`A.
`Yes, the implication is certainly there,
`plus the fact that it's described that the camera
`can be used as an external drive for a computer,
`which suggests that one could read and write.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 22
`
`
`
`Page 23
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`When we were talking about hard disk 71 a
`Q.
`little while ago, you agreed that the hard disk
`could be a different kind of hard disk, it didn't
`have to be a SCSI hard disk; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And if the hard disk 71 is not a SCSI hard
`disk but it's, for example, an IDE hard disk, and
`the external computer expects to be able to
`communicate with the Yamamoto still video camera
`using SCSI, then someone of ordinary skill in the
`art would understand that the Yamamoto still video
`camera would have to provide some kind of SCSI
`emulator; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And in order for a SCSI emulator to operate
`in the Yamamoto still video camera, one of ordinary
`skill in the art would understand that it would have
`to operate by running a set of instructions on a
`processor; correct?
`A.
`Not necessarily. It could be hard wired to
`do the right thing.
`Q.
`So your testimony is that one of ordinary
`skill in the art would understand that the Yamamoto
`still video camera may operate its SCSI emulator on
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 23
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`a processor by running instructions; correct?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection. Form.
`There is no disclosure of what it does.
`A.
`One of ordinary skill knows that some form of
`sequential logic would be needed.
`Q.
`And that form of sequential logic to
`perform the SCSI emulation in the Yamamoto still
`video camera could be running a series -- a set of
`instructions on a processor; correct?
`A.
`Depending on the command -- well, perhaps
`not even depending on the command. But, yes, it
`could be, or it could be running using hard wired
`logic or state machine.
`Let me correct the nuance in my last
`answer. It would depend on the command, what would
`make sense in this environment.
`Q.
`Okay. So let -- let's just clarify, then.
`My question was whether somebody of
`ordinary skill in the art would understand that the
`SCSI emulate -- excuse me -- the SCSI emulator of
`the Yamamoto still video camera could be implemented
`through a set of instructions executed by a
`processor --
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection. Asked and
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 24
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`
` answered.
`Q.
`-- correct?
`A.
`It would depend on what's being emulated.
`And given that all we have is the disclosure here to
`suggest resources where emulation could be done,
`the -- some commands are more likely to be -- any
`command could be implemented either way, but some
`are more likely to be implemented in a -- in
`instructions in a processor, and some are less
`likely to be implemented, so...
`Q.
`But it is possible for all the commands
`being processed by the SCSI emulator in the Yamamoto
`still video camera to be implemented with a set of
`instructions executed by a processor; correct?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection. Asked and
` answered.
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`It would -- so it's your testimony that it
`would not be possible?
`A.
`Not given the resources that are disclosed
`here. We are not inventing some new camera. We are
`making use of what Yamamoto has taught, and
`Yamamoto's system control circuit, while it could be
`adequate for informational commands such as inquiry,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 25
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`it would be wholly inadequate, as one would
`understand it would be typically provided in this
`kind of system, would be wholly inadequate for bulk
`data transfer.
`Q.
`Okay. So let's sort of unpack this a
`little bit.
`Would you agree that the disclosure of the
`Yamamoto patent describes the system control circuit
`as a microprocessor or a microcomputer?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And other than that it doesn't disclose any
`type of particular microprocessor or microcomputer;
`correct?
`No, by it's -- by the jobs it's given to
`A.
`do, it suggests the sort that would be used, but
`it's not explicit in its disclosure.
`Q.
`So going back to the question that I'm
`still seeking to have answered here, I wasn't
`actually asking you whether the system control
`circuit could do what I was asking. I was just
`asking you generally. Would somebody of ordinary
`skill in the art understand that the SCSI emulator
`of the Yamamoto still video camera could be
`implemented through a set of instructions executed
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 26
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`
`by a processor?
`A.
`Well, you refer to "the SCSI emulator" as
`though it were an entity that's disclosed here. And
`other than the fact that this box apart somehow has
`to respond SCSI commands, the Yamamoto does not
`clearly disclose what -- what might be a SCSI
`emulator. It just says commands are processed.
`The, in general, handling, for example,
`bulk data transfers using a stored program computer
`is a bad idea.
`Q.
`So you agreed with me a moment ago that if
`the hard drive, hard disk 71, were a type of hard
`disk that's not a SCSI hard disk, such as an IDE
`hard disk, and if the external computer expects to
`communicate with the Yamamoto still video camera
`using SCSI, that the Yamamoto still video camera
`would need a SCSI emulator. You still agree with
`that; correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And somebody of ordinary skill in the art
`would understand that if a SCSI emulator were to be
`implemented in the Yamamoto still video camera
`because that situation exists, there is an IDE hard
`disk that they want to use, then one of ordinary
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 27
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`skill in the art would understand that the SCSI
`emulator can be implemented as an instruction set on
`a processor; correct?
`A.
`"The SCSI emulator" is too encompassing a
`term to answer categorically. Since we are
`hallucinating here about how we might improve this
`reference in hindsight from the patents-in-suit,
`that hallucination would include what we are given
`here as resources, such as the system control
`circuit 20, which would be a fine candidate for, as
`one of ordinary skill in the art in control
`circuitry of storage media would understand, for
`dealing with procedural commands, such as inquiry,
`set window, read capacity, and that sort of thing.
`But it would be wholly inadequate for that
`aspect of the SCSI emulator that would deal with
`bulk data transfer. And bulk data transfer would
`not need a stored program computer to handle
`properly, even in the case of translating how that
`would work between an interface -- a SCSI interface
`and an IDE interface.
`Q.
`So it's your testimony that one of skill in
`the art would understand that an IDE drive could
`somehow itself respond to SCSI read commands without
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 28
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`having any other processor to provide that
`translation or support?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection.
` Mischaracterizes the other testimony.
`A.
`That's not what I said.
`Q.
`So one of ordinary skill in the art, then,
`would understand that an IDE hard drive would
`require a processor to be able to support its
`responding to SCSI read commands coming from the
`external computer?
`A.
`Also not what I said.
`Q.
`But somebody of ordinary skill in the art
`would understand that that is a possible way to
`implement this system?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection to form.
`If -- if such a person of skill in the art
`A.
`is bound at all by what's disclosed in Yamamoto,
`instead of bringing in all of the computer arts to
`bolster this reference, then that skilled person
`would rely on, for commands such as read, some
`fairly simple logic that's not processor or stored
`program computer in the circuitry between the
`interface and the hard disk to effect a transfer
`from an ATA disk to a SCSI port.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 29
`
`
`
`Page 30
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`I understand from your testimony that there
`Q.
`is probably different ways to do this, but I am
`positing a particular -- a particular method, and
`I'm asking you if one of ordinary skill in the art
`would understand that this is a possibility.
`So is it possible, could someone implement
`a SCSI emulator to allow an IDI [sic] disk, as hard
`disk 71, to communicate through the Yamamoto still
`video camera with an external computer using a SCSI
`interface, and could that SCSI emulator be
`implemented using an instruction set on a processor?
`I understand you say it could be implemented other
`ways, but it could be implemented that way too,
`couldn't it?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection to form.
`Is your hypothetical that -- does your
`A.
`hypothetical have no bounds as to how elaborate the
`emulator structure can be? No bounds such as this
`is a portable device, it has to conserve power, it
`has to be physically small? None of -- no bounds
`whatsoever as to how the circuit might be
`constructed?
`Q.
`I'm requiring the emulator structure to be
`instructions on a processor, and there is nothing in
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 30
`
`
`
`Page 31
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`the specification about what the processor is. So
`those are the limitations. It has to be a
`microprocessor or microcomputer, as set forth in the
`specification of Yamamoto, and a set of instructions
`operating on that processor.
`So given those bounds, is it possible, and
`I'm not asking if it's the only way to do it, I'm
`just asking if it's possible, for somebody of
`ordinary skill in the art to understand that you can
`implement a SCSI emulator on a microprocessor with a
`set of instructions?
`MR. HENKELMANN: Objection. Asked and
` answered.
`A.
`Yeah, I don't hear this as a different
`question. I want to honor your question and answer
`it, but if there is something different about it,
`then, perhaps, you could direct me to how it's
`different, but I think I've covered that topic.
`Q.
`Actually, you haven't. You keep telling me
`other ways to implement it, but you have not agreed
`yet whether the way I'm positing is possible. If
`you think it's not possible, you can simply testify
`that that's not possible. But if it is possible,
`then I'm asking you whether it's possible. So I
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. et al.
`Ex 1016, p. 31
`
`
`
`Page 32
`
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`
`T. A. GAFFORD
`will read the question again, and I'd like a yes or
`no answer.
`The question is: Would one of ordinary
`skill in the art understand that a SCSI emulator
`implemented in the Yamamoto still video camera to
`allow a non-SCSI hard disk 71 to communicate with an
`external computer be implemented as a set of
`instructions on a processor with the only
`limitations being that it nee
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