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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`CASE IPR2016-01512
`
`_______________________________________x
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`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
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` Petitioners
`
` vs.
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`DANIEL L. FLAMM,
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` Patent Owner.
`
`_______________________________________x
`
` 101 California Street, 48th Floor
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` San Francisco, CA 94104
`
` June 29, 2017
`
` 9:57 a.m.
`
` Deposition Of
`
` DANIEL L. FLAMM
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` lipka.com, inc.
`
` 888.lipka.com
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` transcript@lipka.com
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`Samsung Exhibit 1011
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. v. Daniel L. Flamm
` IPR2016-01512
`
`
`
`6/29/2017
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`Daniel L. Flamm
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CASE IPR2016-01512
`
`_______________________________________x
`
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
`
` Petitioners
`
` vs.
`
`DANIEL L. FLAMM,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`_______________________________________x
`
` 101 California Street, 48th Floor
`
` San Francisco, CA 94104
`
` June 29, 2017
`
` 9:57 a.m.
`
` Deposition Of
`
` DANIEL L. FLAMM
`
` lipka.com, inc.
`
` 888.lipka.com
`
` transcript@lipka.com
`
`888.lipka-com
`
`transcripts@lipka.com
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`lipka.com, inc.
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`Page 1
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`Page 1 of 110
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`Samsung Exhibit 1011
`Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. v. Daniel L. Flamm
` IPR2016-01512
`
`
`
`Volume I
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`6/29/2017
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`Daniel L. Flamm
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`PAUL HASTINGS, LLP.
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` Attorneys for Petitioners
`
` 875 15th Street, N.W.
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` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`BY: CHETAN BANSAL, ESQ.
`
`BY: JOSEPH E. PALYS, ESQ.
`
`STADHEIM & GREAR, LTD.
`
` Attorney for Patent Owner
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` 7689 East Paradise Lane, Suite 2
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` Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
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`BY: ROLF STADHEIM, ESQ.
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`Daniel L. Flamm
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` I N D E X
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`EXAMINATION OF PAGE
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`Daniel L. Flamm by Mr. Bansal 4
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` BY MR. BANSAL: 4
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` EXHIBITS
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` (None offered for identification.)
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` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERENCED
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`PETITIONERS' DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 2001 Declaration of Daniel L. Flamm 10
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`Exhibit 1001 Copy of Patent RE 40264 12
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`(Pre-marked exhibits retained by examining attorney)
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`Daniel L. Flamm
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` San Francisco, California; Thursday, June 29, 2017
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` 9:57 a.m.
`
` DANIEL L. FLAMM,
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`having been administered an oath, was examined and
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`testified as follows:
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` EXAMINATION
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`BY MR. BANSAL:
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` Q. Good morning, Dr. Flamm.
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` A. Good morning.
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` Q. Can you please state and spell your full
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`name for the record?
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` A. My full name is Daniel Lawrence Flamm.
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`15
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` MR. STADHEIM: Before we proceed, I -- I
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`want to make a correction in the declaration. If
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`you look at paragraph --
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` MR. BANSAL: Well, Rolf --
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` MR. PALYS: Let him finish. Let's let him
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`finish --
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` MR. BANSAL: Let him finish first and then
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`we can put on what --
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` MR. STADHEIM: He's finished. He's told
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`you what his name is.
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` MR. PALYS: I said let Rolf finish.
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` MR. BANSAL: Okay.
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` MR. STADHEIM: Paragraph No. 23, the first
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`supposed sentence, which actually isn't a sentence
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`because there is no verb at -- it should be preceded
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`by "petitioner proposes using." So the sentence
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`would read, "Petition proposes using Matsumura's
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`recipes to control the temperature," and so on and
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`so forth.
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` All right. Thank you.
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`10
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`BY MR. BANSAL:
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` Q. Could you please state your address for
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`the record? Your home address.
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` A. 476 Green View, two words, Drive, Walnut
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`Creek, California 94596-5459.
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` Q. We're already starting an hour late from
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`the scheduled time.
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` A. Not quite an hour late, but...
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` Q. It was supposed to start at 9 o'clock.
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`We're starting at 9:59, so --
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` A. Well, I was in the door, actually, here
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`before -- you know, if that -- as far as the
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`technicalities, before that. So it took me -- I had
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`to change elevators and everything to find your
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`place, and I was probably ten minutes to 9:00, to be
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`fair about it -- or to 10:00. Excuse me.
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` Q. My understanding from our conversation is
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`that the delay was because of parking issues.
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` A. I went to the -- I was unable to park at
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`the Walnut Creek BART station and -- or the
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`Lafayette BART station, and I finally managed to
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`secure a parking place at the Pleasant Hill BART
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`station. I had arrived at the BART station slightly
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`before 8:00 a.m., allowing an hour to park, get on
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`the BART, which is normally about 35 minutes from
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`here, and it took me an hour, with all those events,
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`to secure a parking space. There is no paid parking
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`or anything near any of the BART stations. And I
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`don't routinely come in at -- in the beginning of
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`the morning, so I wasn't familiar with the fact
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`that the -- I'm told, actually, by a gentleman
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`passenger that some of the BART stations fill up at
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`5:00 a.m., which was -- I didn't know. It didn't
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`used to be that way.
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` Q. Do you understand you're under oath today?
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` A. Yes. What I said is absolutely true.
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` Q. Have you been deposed before, Dr. Flamm?
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` A. I have.
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` Q. How many times?
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` A. I don't know.
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` Q. More than five? Less than five?
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` A. Over a period of decades, certainly more
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`than 5; certainly not 20; probably not 10, but I'm
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`not sure.
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` Q. Do you recall what matters you have been
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`deposed on?
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` A. Probably not if it -- I don't -- is it
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`relevant to this?
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` Q. Can you just answer my question?
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` A. Pardon me?
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` Q. I'm just saying, could you answer my
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`question?
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` A. I did answer your question.
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` Q. What were the subject matters of the
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`depositions that, you know, you were deposed?
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` A. Various patent disputes, things related
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`to -- usually things related to patents. You know,
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`I remember -- I think the first time I was dis- --
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`deposed was probably in 1990. I recall there was an
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`interference suit, and I was acting as an expert for
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`one of the sides. I had been asked to by a personal
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`friend.
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` Q. Before we begin, I just want to go over
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`some basic ground rules. I'll be asking you
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`questions during this deposition. Your counsel may
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`object, but you must answer unless your counsel
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`instructs you not to answer.
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` Do you understand that?
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` A. I understand what you're saying.
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` Q. Our conversation will be transcribed by
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`the court reporter, and therefore it is important
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`that you speak your answers, because the, you know,
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`court reporter is not going to be able to take down
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`gestures.
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` Again for the benefit of the court
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`reporter, let's make sure not to speak over each
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`other.
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` Do you understand that?
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` A. I understand what you said.
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` Q. Regarding breaks, we'll be taking breaks
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`during this deposition, but if you need one, let me
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`know. If a question is pending, I'll request that
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`you answer the question before requesting a break.
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` Okay?
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` A. That -- was that a question?
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`20
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` Q. Yeah. Are -- okay.
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` A. What -- what is the question? I'm sorry.
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` Q. Okay. Any questions before we begin?
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` A. I have no questions.
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` Q. Is there any reason that you -- that would
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`prevent you from testifying truthfully and
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`accurately today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Dr. Flamm, did you prepare for this
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`deposition?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Did you spend any hours preparing for
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`deposition? I'm guessing none, because you said no.
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` A. Pardon me?
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` Q. How many hours did you spend preparing for
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`this deposition?
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` A. Zero. I discussed the fact that we're
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`having a deposition, and we briefly reviewed some
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`materials, but I'm pretty familiar with everything,
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`so I don't -- I didn't require any extraordinary
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`time.
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` MR. BANSAL: Let me show you something
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`here.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Counsel, did you want
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`the RealTime?
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` THE COURT REPORTER: No?
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` MR. STADHEIM:: No. I'm just curious --
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Do you mind -- I'm
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`just going to take that.
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` MR. STADHEIM: You want -- you want it
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`back?
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` THE COURT REPORTER: No. I'll just put it
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`down. Thank you, sir. I'm sorry I didn't ask you
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`before.
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` MR. BANSAL: I want to present the witness
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`what has previously been marked as Exhibit 2001.
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` MR. STADHEIM: Thank you.
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` (Exhibit 2001 was referenced.)
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` MR. BANSAL: Oh, sorry. I'm -- I -- I
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`passed the wrong exhibit. Can you just give it
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`back? Sorry about that.
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` THE WITNESS: So, for the record, you
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`handed me Dr. Shanfield's deposition.
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` MR. STADHEIM: Thank you.
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`BY MR. BANSAL:
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` Q. Dr. Flamm, do you recognize the exhibit I
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`just handed over to you?
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` A. You handed me my declaration.
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` Q. I handed to Dr. Flamm what has previously
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`been marked as Exhibit 2001 in this proceeding.
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` Can I refer to this exhibit as your
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`declaration?
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` A. I just did.
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` Q. Can you go to the last page of this
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`exhibit? Actually, when I say last page, can you
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`please go to page 18?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Is that your signature there?
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` A. It is.
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` Q. And is that date accurate, 1st of
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`May 2017?
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` A. I believe so, but I don't recall offhand
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`the date on which I affixed the signature. I would
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`have to research it.
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` Q. Dr. Flamm, did you write this declaration
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`yourself?
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` A. Yes. I got some assistance from counsel
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`in formalities, but -- and it was transcribed by a
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`clerk. So there are a number of typographical
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`errors in here, which I noticed after the fact, and
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`the typographical errors are not mine, because they
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`were done -- it was -- it was edited on a computer
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`by a clerical person remotely, and I -- when we
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`actually filed it, I missed some of the
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`typographical errors. So, you know, in that sense,
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`it wasn't entirely mine, but the content was.
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` Q. Do you recall the name of the clerical
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`person --
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` A. No --
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`24
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` Q. -- you just mentioned?
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` A. -- I do not.
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` Q. Was this clerical person someone at a law
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`firm?
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` A. I don't know. The clerical person worked
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`for counsel, and counsel can advise me and I can
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`repeat, if you want, in the record. Is that an
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`issue?
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` Q. Do you understand that this declaration
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`was provided with patent owner's response in this
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`proceeding?
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` A. Of course.
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` Q. Did you help prepare the patent owner
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`response?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. In what way?
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` A. Reviewed things, contributed things. I
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`don't recall exactly. I mean, that's an open-ended
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`question and I don't know how to answer it.
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` Q. Did you write any portion of the patent
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`owner response?
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` A. Yes.
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` MR. BANSAL: I'm going to hand the witness
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`what has previously been marked as Exhibit 1001.
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` (Exhibit 1001 was referenced.)
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`BY MR. BANSAL:
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` Q. Dr. Flamm, do you recognize this exhibit?
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` A. It appears to be a copy of the reissued
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`subject patent.
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` Q. Do you mean this is a copy of RE 40264?
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` A. That's the designation of that patent,
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`yes.
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` Q. Your declaration provides your opinions
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`regarding RE 40264, right?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Is it okay if I refer to RE 40264 as the
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`'264 Patent?
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` A. As you please.
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` Q. Dr. Flamm, are you the inventor of the
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`'264 Patent?
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` A. I am.
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` Q. Are you the sole inventor of the '264
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`Patent?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Did you submit your declaration in your
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`capacity as an expert witness?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. But you're also the inventor of the '264
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`Patent, right?
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` A. Your question was asked and answered.
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` Q. Could you please answer again?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are the statements in your declaration
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`also in your capacity as an inventor of the '26- --
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`of the '264 Patent?
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` A. I'm not sure I understand the question.
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`So you've kind of commingled inventor and expert,
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`and it -- you've indicated there was -- you wanted
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`to make a distinction. So in your asking this
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`question, I don't understand specifically what
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`you're asking.
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` Q. So did you submit this declaration only in
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`the capacity of an expert?
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` A. I submitted the declaration in the
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`capacity of an expert.
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` Q. Did you submit your declaration only in
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`the capacity of an expert?
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` A. I don't understand the meaning of the
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`question. I don't understand why you prefix it
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`with "only" and what the significance is. I
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`answered the question as best that I know how. If
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`you want to ask a different question, I can attempt
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`to answer that.
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` Q. Are there any statements in your
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`declaration that you made in your capacity as an
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`inventor of the '264 Patent but not as an expert?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Okay. Dr. Flamm, you were admitted as a
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`patent agent in 2003, correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. And you were registered as a patent
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`attorney since 2006?
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` A. I think that's correct.
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` Q. How many patent applications have you
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`prosecuted?
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` A. Not sure the exact number. I haven't kept
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`10
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`track. More than 10, certainly; more than 20, I
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`think; more than 30, possibly.
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` Q. Are there any applications that you have
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`written from scratch?
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` A. Many.
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` Q. How many?
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` A. Again, I don't know the exact number.
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` Q. Turning to the '264 Patent, did you write
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`18
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`the claims --
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. -- of the '264 Patent?
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` A. I did.
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` Q. Did you also write the specification --
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` A. No, I did not --
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` Q. -- of the '264 Patent?
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` A. Well, right at --
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` THE COURT REPORTER: One second. Hold
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`one. One person at a time, please. I can only take
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`down one person at a time.
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`BY MR. BANSAL:
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` Q. Did you also write the specification of
`
`the '264 Patent?
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` A. I'm -- I want to distinguish -- I want to
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`understand the question to answer it properly. So
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`did I personally draft the specification -- is your
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`question, did I personally draft the specification?
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` Q. Well, let's just start with that.
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` A. I did not.
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` Q. Okay. Dr. Flamm, do you own the '264
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`Patent?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Is your ownership percentage 100 percent?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What is your current employment, or who
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`are you currently employed with?
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` A. I'm self-employed. My firm is -- I don't
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`21
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`know if it's on -- it's Microtechnology Law and
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`Analysis.
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` Q. What has been your primary source of
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`income for you over the last two years?
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` A. Over the last two years?
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`Probably -- probably social security and investments
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`and things of that nature, because I've had a --
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`there's been a -- and it's continuing -- an illness
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`in my family which has demanded almost all of my
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`attention. And I -- I do have an income from, you
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`know, professional patent and scientific work, but
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`it's less than the income from other sources.
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` Q. What percentage of your income is -- is --
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`you know, derives from the licensing --
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` A. I -- I don't know offhand.
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` Q. So you mentioned that your income comes
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`from professional patent and scientific work. I
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`just want to like, you know, understand, what do you
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`mean by professional patent work?
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`15
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` A. Same as yours.
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`16
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` Q. Does that involve any licensing fees?
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`17
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` A. It -- over the last two years, there have
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`18
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`been -- there have been some licensing fees, but --
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`so some of that is confidential information, too, so
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`I'm not -- not at liberty to discuss it in detail.
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` Q. By licensing fees, do you mean patent
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`licensing fees?
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`23
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` A. Well, I took that to -- to be the meaning
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`24
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`of your question, although I -- you know, I have
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`some copyrights and stuff from, you know, writings,
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`but I don't receive any -- I do receive some income.
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`They're not licensing fees or royalties, but they're
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`not signif- -- they're not -- you know, if you have
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`some questions, as I said, they -- they're -- I
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`already said they weren't -- you know, that kind of
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`stuff wasn't substantial, I think, so I'm not sure
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`what you're getting at.
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` Q. What portion of your income has been
`
`derived from licensing of the '264 Patent?
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` A. What portion of my income --
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` Q. Over the last two years has derived
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`12
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`from --
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` A. Well, please define the last --
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` Q. -- the --
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` THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. One
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`person at a time, please.
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`BY MR. BANSAL:
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` Q. Sorry. Dr. Flamm, let me just repeat.
`
`What portion of your income over the last two years,
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`starting from today, has been derived from the
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`licensing of the '264 Patent?
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`22
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` A. And I don't know the exact number. I
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`23
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`already told you. I don't -- I'm not sure I know
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`the approximate number. I'd have to calculate that.
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` Q. Have you licensed the '264 Patent to any
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`entity?
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` A. So I need to ask counsel for some
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`definitional assistance. Is that -- is that okay?
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` Q. Well, you can ask him only if it's to do
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`with privilege. But I'm not asking you to name any
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`entities or anything like that. I'm just asking
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`you, have you licensed --
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` A. Okay. I'm trying to discriminate between
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`a license and other forms of transfer of
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`intellectual property rights. And to answer your
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`question in the -- in a -- responsive to the literal
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`meaning, I need to understand where this -- where
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`any transactions that have been effectuated lie, and
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`offhand, I don't know the answer. I'm unsure and,
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`therefore, with an abundance of course -- caution, I
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`don't want to answer incorrectly.
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` Q. So are you saying that you're not sure --
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`18
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` A. Well, let me try to -- I'm not trying to
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`evade the question. So there have been -- there
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`have been some rights to -- which you asked about,
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`to the '264 -- to use the '264, given to other
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`entities, and -- and we have received some
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`compensation for those rights. If that's a
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`24
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`sufficient answer to your question, you know,
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`that's -- that's fine. I don't want to distinguish
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`between licensing and other forms of transfer.
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` Q. You said "we." What do you mean by "we"?
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` A. I mean -- I mean my counsel and myself.
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`So the rights are mine, as you asked me already.
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`But when I -- my conduct with respect to the -- to
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`licensing and to the patents at issue are guided by
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`my counsel, as is normal.
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` Q. Are you currently asserting the '264
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`Patent in litigation against any entities?
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`10
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` A. The answer, I believe it to be yes.
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` Q. Would you agree with me that you're
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`asserting the '264 Patent against at least five
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`entities at this time?
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`14
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` A. I believe that may be correct, but I'm
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`15
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`not -- I don't have a sure knowledge of it as I'm
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`sitting here, and I need to sort out and -- you
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`know, that -- that sounds generally agreeable.
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` Q. What kind of relief are you requesting in
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`these litigation actions that you have brought based
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`on the '264 Patent?
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` A. Monetary.
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` Q. If the '264 Patent -- sir, actually, let
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`me ask you, would you stand to benefit from the '264
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`Patent being held patentable by the board in this
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`matter?
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` A. The answer is yes, that the '264 Patent is
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`presumptively valid as we sit here.
`
` Q. What I'm asking is, if the board affirms
`
`the claims at issue in this proceeding and, let's
`
`say, then appeals -- if -- if -- if any are also in
`
`your favor -- do you understand that?
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` A. What you said was a little bit convoluted,
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`so it's -- I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm
`
`uncertain as to whether I do or don't understand it.
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` Q. Okay. That sounds good.
`
` Dr. Flamm, over the next, you know, half
`
`an hour or so, I just want to get some basic
`
`understanding of semiconductor processes from you.
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`Are you familiar with semiconductor manufacturing
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`processes in, say, the mid-1990s, so from, let's
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`say, 1994 through 1997?
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`17
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` A. Generally.
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` Q. What kind of semiconductor manufacturing
`
`processes are -- are you familiar with? So if you
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`want to just name a few, just generally.
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` A. Pardon me?
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` Q. Let me rephrase the question.
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` Do you know what a MOSFET is?
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`24
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are you familiar with the fabrication
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`process for an MOSFET?
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` A. Generally.
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` Q. Would you consider the fabrication process
`
`for a MOSFET to be a semiconductor manufacturing
`
`process?
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` A. I think that's the term of art.
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` Q. So let me begin by -- you know, with -- by
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`getting your understanding of the different layers
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`in a MOSFET, okay? Is that okay?
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` A. Well, you're -- you're the one asking the
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`questions. I -- there are many different fabs, and
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`historically there have been different methods of
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`13
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`production, so I don't -- I may or may not -- if --
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`you know, if you're asking me generally, I don't
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`generally know every method of production of a
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`MOSFET without, you know, receiving some indication
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`17
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`of what you're asking.
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` Q. Okay. So --
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` A. I may or may not know some particulars.
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` Q. Let's start with the basic construction of
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`a MOSFET. So a MOSFET has -- was it known in the
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`mid-1990s that a MOSFET has a substrate?
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`23
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` A. Was it known that a MOSFET has a
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`substrate? Well, to my knowledge, in production,
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`generally semiconductor devices are fabricated on a
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`substrate. Since a MOSFET is a type of
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`semiconductor device, I would answer yes. But I
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`also believe it's possible to do it with in --
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`experimentally, at least, without a defined
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`substrate to start with.
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` Q. Well, let's assume that we're talking
`
`about a MOSFET with a substrate. Above the
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`substrate, there would be a dielectric layer,
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`correct, in a MOSFET?
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`10
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` A. At some point, there would be at least
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`one.
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` Q. This dielectric layer would function as a
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`gate oxide?
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` A. There would be other dielectric layers
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`that were not a gate oxide.
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` Q. Let me focus on -- only to the gate oxide.
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`So, you know, the MOSFET has a substrate. Over the
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`substrate, there is a gate oxide. Over the gate
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`oxide, is there a polysilicon layer?
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`20
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` A. There could be a polysilicon layer.
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` Q. Above the polysilicon layer would be,
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`let's say, a metal silicide?
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`23
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` A. Not necessarily. There might be, though.
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` Q. What, according to -- in the 1990s, would
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`be included in the gate of a MOSFET?
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` A. I'm not sure I -- so I'm under- -- so
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`I'm -- I'm not an expert in device design, as
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`opposed to, you know, fabrication processes. So
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`I -- I shouldn't say I'm not an expert. Let me take
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`that back. I'm -- I'm not -- I'm not more than --
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`I -- I'm not -- I'm probably a person having
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`ordinary skill in the art in device design, maybe
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`not -- you know, I'd have to figure that out,
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`whether I qualify or not.
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` So -- so I don't -- if you're asking me
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`questions, which it sounds like you are, about
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`nuances of device design, I -- you know, I may
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`not -- as I said at the onset, I may not know some
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`of the answers. So I certainly know what a MOSFET
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`is. I know ways to construct a MOSFET. They may or
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`may not be the ways you're thinking about.
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` Q. No. I was just trying to understand
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`certain semiconductor manufacturing processes. In
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`the context of a MOSFET -- a MOSFET is simply an
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`example.
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` So, let's say, you know, back in the -- so
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`back in the mid-1990s, you are looking at a MOSFET
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`with an oxide layer on the substrate, over which
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`there is a polysilicon layer, and over which there
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`is a tungsten silicide layer. That's assuming you
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`have three layers.
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` How would you begin -- or to -- to
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`fabricate this structure? So you would start with a
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`substrate first, right?
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` A. Well, you asked. There's normally -- you
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`know, in production processes, there's generally
`
`the -- one starts with a substrate, yes.
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` Q. Then you would deposit an oxide?
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` A. You could. You could do other things.
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`10
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`You could oxidize it without doing a deposition, for
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`example.
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` Q. Then you would deposit, on that oxide, a
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`polysilicon layer?
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` A. You might.
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` Q. What other there ways that were known
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`to -- how to deposit a polysilicon layer?
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` A. As far as I know, there are many ways that
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`are known to deposit a polysilicon layer.
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` Q. Was CVD, or chemical vapor deposition, a
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`known way to deposit a polysilicon layer?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What are the different types of CVD, or
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`chemical vapor deposition?
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` A. There's probably too many to recite, and I
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`might miss or -- I - -if you want me to try, I guess
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`I could, but I don't -- it's your call.
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` Q. So having deposited a polysilicon layer,
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`then you would again deposit, let's say, a metal
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`silicide?
`
` A. According to what you told me.
`
` Q. Again, was CVD a process that was known to
`
`deposit a metal silicide back in the mid-1990s?
`
` A. I think it was. I'm unsure of which
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`alternative was used in -- I think one might have
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`used PVD in that case, which is a form -- could --
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`arguably a form of CVD, but it's -- if you talk to
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`most fab engineers, I know they would distinguish
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`between the two.
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` Q. So having deposited these layers, how
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`would one go about fabricating a gate structure, a
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`gate of a MOSFET?
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` A. You know, I'm not an expert, as I said, in
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`doing that. So I -- you know, one -- a MOSFET
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`consists generally of some electrodes over an oxide
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`layer, and the silicon -- polysilicon below is doped
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`so it's either on or off, depending upon, you know,
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`the desire, whether it's depletion or enhancement
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`mode.
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` And I explained to you already, although I
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`know some of these things, it's a little bit outside
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`lipka.com, inc.
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`my main field of expertise, so I -- you know, if
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`you're -- I'm not sure where you're going. I'm not
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`the best person to explain the design of a process
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`for making a MOSFET.
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` Q. But you would agree that after depositing
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`these layers, you would have to etch those layers to
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`create the gate of the MOSFET, right?
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` A. You have to etch all those layers to
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`create the gate of the MOSFET? I don't think so.
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` Q. Why not?
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` A. Well, first place, it's only the upper
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`layers that control the gating of the MOSFET. The
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`etching would have to do with an integrated circuit
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`if you're etching the thing as a whole, which it
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`generally is a device. But you asked me about a
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`specific MOSFET, so you could make a MOSFET without
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`etching layers below. You only have to construct
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`the electrode portions, and the electrode portions
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`could be constructed by either additive or
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`subtractive lithography. And if you're asking me
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`about the production of an integrated circuit as a
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`whole, I already said, you know, I didn't want to
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`speculate on any designs because that -- I'm not an
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`integrated circuit designer.
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` Q. But it was known to use etching when
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`forming integrated circuits, right?
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` A. Certainly.
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` Q. And if the MOSFET was being used in an
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`integrated circuit, then you would agree that it was
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`known to use etching to form the gate of the MOSFET,
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`which would ultimately be used in integrated
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`circuit?
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` A. Yeah, etching generally.
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` Q. Was plasma etching known?
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` A. Of course.
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` Q. Was plasma etching known to form a -- or
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`to etch the gate in -- sorry. Strike that.
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` Back in the mid-1990s, was
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