` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`DISH NETWORK, LLC, :
` Petitioner, : Case No. IPR2016-01470
` v. : Patent No. 8,611,404
`TQ DELTA, LLC, : Case No. IPR2016-1469
` Patent Owner. : Patent No. 9,094,268
`- - - - - - - - - - - - X
`
` Deposition of WILLIAM LEO HOARTY
` Washington, DC
` Wednesday, May 3, 2017
` 8:32 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 142508
`Pages 1 - 218
`Reported by: Debra A. Whitehead
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`TQ Delta Exhibit 2004
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`Dish Network LLC v. TQ Delta, LLC
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`IPR2016-01470
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`Transcript of William Leo Hoarty
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`2
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` Deposition of WILLIAM LEO HOARTY, held at the
`offices of:
`
` COOLEY LLP
` 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
` Suite 700
` Washington, DC 20004
` (202) 842-7800
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Debra A. Whitehead, an
`Approved Reporter of the United States District Court
`and Notary Public of the District of Columbia.
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` STEPHEN McBRIDE, ESQUIRE
` COOLEY LLP
` One Freedom Square
` Reston Town Center
` 11951 Freedom Drive
` Reston, Virginia 20190-5656
` (703) 456-8000
` -and-
` STEPHEN SMITH, ESQUIRE
` COOLEY LLP
` 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
` Suite 700
` Washington, DC 20004
` (202) 842-7800
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` A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` RAJENDRA A. CHIPLUNKAR, ESQUIRE
` THOMAS J. WIMBISCUS, ESQUIRE
` McANDREWS HELD & MALLOY LTD.
` 500 West Madison Street
` 34th Floor
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
` (312) 775-8000
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF WILLIAM LEO HOARTY PAGE
` By Mr. Chiplunkar 7
` By Mr. McBride 210
` By Mr. Chiplunkar 214
`
` EXHIBITS MARKED IN PRIOR SESSIONS
` (Retained by Counsel)
`DISH DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
` Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent No. 8,611,404 31
` Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent No. 9,094,268 31
` Exhibit 1002 Declaration of W. Leo Hoarty in 11
` Support of Petition for Inter
` Partes Review of U.S. Patent
` No. 9,094,268
` Exhibit 1002 Declaration of W. Leo Hoarty in 12
` Support of Petition for Inter
` Partes Review of U.S. Patent
` No. 8,611,404
` Exhibit 1004 U.S. Patent No. 5,956,323 51
` Exhibit 1005 U.S. Patent No. 6,236,674 71
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` EXHIBITS MARKED IN PRIOR SESSIONS - CONTINUED
`DISH DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
` Exhibit 1005 European Patent Application 114
` No. EP 0 883 269 A1
` Exhibit 1006 Excerpt from American National 112
` Standard for Telecommunications
` Exhibit 1016 Expert Witness Consultant 12
` Curriculum Vitae, W. Leo Hoarty
`
`TQ DELTA DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
` Exhibit 2001 Excerpt from The Authoritative 36
` Dictionary of IEEE Standard
` Terms, Seventh Edition
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`7
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` WILLIAM LEO HOARTY,
` having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q Good morning.
` A Good morning.
` Q Can you please state your name and
`address, for the record.
` A Certainly. My name is Leo Hoarty. My
`address is 3465 Oak Hill Court, three words, in
`Morgan Hill, two words, California, and the ZIP code
`is 95037.
` Q So we have a court reporter today. She is
`going to be transcribing this deposition. So if you
`could speak audibly, answer audibly. If you have a
`yes or a no answer, yes or no, don't nod your head.
` A Okay. Will do.
` Q If you don't understand a question, you
`can ask me and I will have the court reporter reread
`it to you.
` I plan to take a break once every hour.
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`If you need a break at any time you can ask for a
`break, as soon as you're done answering that
`question, obviously.
` A Of course.
` Q Is that okay?
` A Of course.
` Q Of course you cannot talk to counsel while
`this deposition is in progress.
` A Understood.
` Q Okay. So let's get started.
` Are you on any medications or anything
`that would affect your ability to testify today
`honestly?
` A No, I'm not.
` Q Okay. So you've been offered as an expert
`by Dish in two different IPR proceedings. It's IPR
`2016-01469 and IPR 2016-01470. Is that correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q And is it correct that IPR 2016-01469 is
`directed to U.S. Patent Number 9,094,268?
` A I will have to accept your --
` Q Okay.
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` A -- your word on the relationship to the
`filing number. I have a good number memory, but not
`quite.
` Q Okay. I will represent that it is.
` A Okay.
` Q And I also represent that IPR 2016-01470
`is directed to U.S. Patent Number 8,611,404.
` A I agree with that --
` Q Okay.
` A -- on the same condition.
` Q Yes. And I will refer to U.S. Patent
`Number 9,094,268 as the '268 patent. Would that --
` A That's acceptable.
` Q Would that work? Okay.
` A Works.
` Q And I will refer to the 8,611,404 patent
`as the '404 patent.
` A Acceptable.
` Q Okay. You submitted two separate
`declarations?
` A Yes.
` Q Are you aware that there were -- there was
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`a declaration that was submitted with the original
`petition, and then there was a replacement
`declaration that was submitted?
` A For which? Which?
` Q For the '268 and the '404 IPRs.
` A I assume you are -- do you mean that there
`is an amendment or --
` Q Yes.
` A -- a correction?
` Q Yes.
` A I've seen the correction.
` Q And what was the correction?
` A I don't remember. I'm so sorry. I have
`to ...
` Q Okay. Were there any substantive changes?
` A I don't believe so. I think it might have
`been a citation or a spelling error or something.
` Q Okay.
` A It was not handled by myself, so ...
` Q Did you look at the replacement
`declaration before it was filed?
` A Yes, I did.
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` Q Did you compare them with the previous
`declaration that you had signed on -- when you had
`signed it?
` A By virtue of red line in the document,
`yes.
` Q Okay. I'm going to --
` A I'm sorry.
` Q Go ahead.
` A No. It's fine.
` Q So I'm going to give you what is marked
`Exhibit 1002 in the '268 patent IPR.
` (Dish Exhibit 1002, previously marked,
`retained by counsel.)
` A Thank you.
` Q Do you recognize that document, sir?
` A I do.
` Q Okay. If you turn to the last page, is
`that your signature?
` A It is.
` Q And that was signed on August --
` A July 20th.
` Q Okay. I am also going to give you Exhibit
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`12
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`1002 that was filed with the '404 IPR petition.
` (Dish Exhibit 1002, previously marked,
`retained by counsel.)
` A Thank you.
` Q Do you recognize that document?
` A I do.
` Q And can you tell us what that document is?
` A It is a declaration I wrote pertaining to
`Patent '404.
` Q Okay.
` MR. McBRIDE: Raj, can I get a copy when
`you get a chance, so I can follow along?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: I'm sorry.
` MR. McBRIDE: Thank you.
` Q Since we are getting exhibits out of the
`way, I am handing you Exhibit 1016 that was filed in
`the '268 IPR.
` (Dish Exhibit 1016, previously marked,
`retained by counsel.)
` MR. McBRIDE: Thank you.
` Q Do you recognize that document, sir?
` A I certainly do.
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`13
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` Q And can you tell us what that document is?
` A It is my CV, it's my professional
`background.
` Q Any changes to that CV since you last --
` A I've done a lot more work.
` Q Okay.
` A Additional cases have been added to my
`expert witness work, additional patents have been
`written by me.
` Q Okay.
` A And other activities, professionally.
` Q Can you describe your education in your
`CV?
` A Yes. I attended Ohio State University in
`Columbus, Ohio. My major was electronics
`engineering, with -- and I did not -- I left Ohio
`State after two years without a degree, with the
`intention of moving to California, which I did, and
`attending the University of California in Berkeley.
` It required -- to attend the school
`required a one-year residency. And during that year
`that I was establishing residency, I was involved in
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`a medical electronics startup. And one thing led to
`another, and I never went back to -- never went back
`to the university, but continued in electronics
`engineering. And then moving into computer science
`a decade later.
` Q Fair enough. So the two years that you
`spent at the University of Ohio?
` A Ohio State University.
` Q Ohio State?
` A There is a university of -- Ohio
`University it's called.
` Q Thank you. What kind of classes did you
`take?
` A It's all, you know, the preliminary work
`you do in the first two years of -- the maths,
`introductory engineering courses. I did some
`physics, which is a course I am very interested in,
`and continue to read in physics.
` But just the preliminary courses. I was
`not attempting to establish an associate degree; I
`was fully intending to finish all four years.
` Q Okay.
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`15
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` A It was just simply UC Berkeley was
`attractive, and I moved to -- California was
`attractive, plus the microprocessor had just been
`invented, so there was a lot of excitement in the
`field. And we were -- many distractions caused me
`to change my university.
` Q Okay.
` A Positive distractions, I should say.
` Q Fair enough. So I understand you filed
`several patents, been granted several patents.
` Do you have any patents that relate to DSL
`modems, or the technologies related to DSL modems?
` A Yes. Actually, very -- I have many. In
`the mid 1990s, one of the -- I was involved -- I was
`the founder of a -- what you would call a startup.
`It's now a full-fledged company with hundreds of
`employees. But it was called ICTV in 1990.
` It was interactive cable television. But
`the cable television industry had no data signaling
`from the home to -- back to its central office or
`head-end equivalent.
` I invented a technology called CDSL, for
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`16
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`cable digital subscriber line, and actually
`patent -- have many patents around it.
` Plus we developed a custom chip to
`effect -- to execute, excuse me, the protocol. And
`it went into service in several cities in the United
`States as part of the ICTV interactive television
`system. It was great experience. Hard to do in the
`early '90s, as electronics was, compared to today,
`was much -- much cruder.
` Silicon integrated circuits were less --
`much less capable. But we were successful, and it
`worked quite well.
` Later in 2000 I developed a technology
`similar to the modulation means of ADSL, but for
`free to air broadcast of data, a company called
`Dotcast. Dotcast was invested in by Cisco, Intel
`Corporation invested. We raised several hundred
`million dollars to build a very large effort called
`MovieBeam. It was a wireless set-top that used
`over-the-air data transmission. And with the
`modulation scheme similar to ADSL, and many of the
`same problems it faced. But, of course, in a
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`broadcast modality.
` Q So the CDSL protocol that you mentioned
`was -- was that -- what layer of the protocol stack
`was that at?
` A All.
` Q All?
` A It was the -- well, excuse me. Let me
`clarify there.
` Engineers referenced the -- what's called
`the ISO model, I-S-O. And it is a seven-layer stack
`that almost nobody adheres to. There's always
`certain layers get combined. But basically it was a
`physical layer. In other words, it had to connect
`to the cable. So we had to have a means to a
`physical, and it had a data link layer. Packets had
`error correction and routing addressing
`information -- excuse me, just error correction, and
`simple addressing.
` Then there's a transport layer that
`determines where it goes in the network and how it
`is routed.
` It has a -- above that is just basically a
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`connection layer to the -- to the subscriber's
`circuit, or, sorry, subscriber's -- I'm trying to
`think what's the best way to describe it. But
`the -- the subscriber's interactive session would be
`the best way to put it.
` Q What was the physical medium, the FY?
` A The FY was the cable -- was actually the
`coax cable in the home. So we're coupling into a
`coax cable, which is traditionally one way in the
`early '90s. There was very little two-way cable
`television. So it connected into the coax cable in
`the home.
` Q Okay.
` A And it went upstream.
` Q And what was the MAC layer that was used?
` Was it a proprietary MAC layer?
` A No. We used a protocol called ALOHA,
`which our military uses. ALOHA, slotted ALOHA to be
`specific.
` Q So is it fair to say that all the
`modulation happened in the ALOHA layer?
` A Sure, if you want to. I mean, you can
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`break it out and talk about it, it was a -- QAM
`signal, a QAM. And it was certainly done in the
`silicon.
` Q Who developed the ALOHA silicon?
` A The company called Echelon.
` Q Okay. Were you associated with Echelon?
` A One of our engineers was.
` Q Okay. So it's fair to say that Echelon
`designed the --
` A You can call it the radio in parlance.
` Q Designed the radio?
` A Yes, they designed the radio, right.
` Q So all the modulation, the multi-carrier
`QAM modulation, was it a multi-carrier system?
` A Well, it was multi-carrier by virtue of
`the fact that it's QAM. You have an in phase
`quadrature component carrying data, so yes.
` Q So is it your understanding that if
`quadrature amplitude is used, it's multi-carrier by
`default?
` A You could say that.
` MR. McBRIDE: Object to form.
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` Q Is it possible to have single carrier QAM?
` A It depends on how you want to define --
`define your carriers.
` Q Can you -- can you modulate a single tone
`with quadrature amplitude modulation?
` A Single carrier.
` MR. McBRIDE: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry.
` MR. McBRIDE: Just give me a second.
` Q Can you modulate a single carrier using
`quadrature amplitude modulation?
` A The carrier -- you can -- you can modulate
`subcarriers onto a single carrier. So your
`subcarriers will represent multiple carriers, and
`they can be combined into a single carrier.
` Q So let me get that right. So you have
`multiple carriers at different frequencies that are
`combined?
` A Or different phases.
` Q Different phases. So you have multiple
`carriers at different frequencies or different
`phases that are combined to generate a single
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`carrier?
` A Sure. Television is a good example. You
`have -- you have a carrier for color, you have a
`carrier for stereo sound, you have a carrier for the
`audio, the FM audio. You have a carrier for the
`black-and-white picture all in one -- all inside of
`one common carrier. So it is quite common in
`communications.
` Q And do these have -- can you break these
`out as different frequencies?
` A You would call them subcarriers. They
`would exist at different frequencies, of course.
` Q So can you have, since you're making a
`distinction between carriers and subcarriers, can
`you have single subcarrier quadrature amplitude
`modulation?
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection. Form.
` A Can you repeat that? I'm sorry.
` Q Can you have a single subcarrier, can you
`have a system with a single subcarrier that does
`quadrature amplitude modulation?
` A No.
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` Q You cannot?
` A Not by my definition.
` Q Okay. So going back. So we've
`established that Echelon did the -- we were talking
`about Echelon doing the radio component of the
`multi-carrier modulation scheme was implemented.
` So what work did you, personally, do that
`would indicate that you understood what the state of
`the art was with respect to multi-carrier
`transceivers in 1998?
` A I designed the -- I designed the system
`that -- that -- the system and some of the circuitry
`that actually used the chip as a -- again, just as a
`radio. One would not build that from transistors in
`the 1990s. You would use integrated circuits.
` And we developed that into a full -- a
`fully operational system deployed on cable TV
`networks within a metropolitan area. Required
`management of all -- it required the
`synchronization, signaling, noise management, which
`noise was particularly a problem. And many other
`details of a complex architecture.
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` Q Did the ALOHA chip have a low-power and a
`full-power mode of operation?
` A The chip did not.
` Q So in the 1998 time frame, what
`informed -- how did you understand low-power modes
`were implemented in multi-carrier transceivers?
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection. Form.
` A May I ask for a procedural question just
`real quick.
` THE WITNESS: Do I continue to answer?
` MR. McBRIDE: Yes. I just need to --
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
` MR. McBRIDE: I just need a second to
`lodge an objection. So give me a breath, and then
`you can continue after I object.
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Right. My
`apologies.
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: No worries.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Got it.
` MR. McBRIDE: Good.
` So go ahead, please.
` Q So we were saying the ALOHA chip, or the
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`24
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`chip that implemented the QAM protocol in your -- in
`the CDSL -- I'm just calling it CDSL system -- that
`did not have a low-power mode of operation?
` A It did not.
` Q Okay. So what work did you do that would
`indicate that you understood in 1998 -- that's the
`time frame of the patents -- how multi-carrier
`transceivers could operate at a low-power mode?
` A Low-power mode was a fairly well
`understood principle. It's -- I would -- I would
`say a basic principle of -- of electronics
`engineering for consumer electronics, for commercial
`electronics, for military electronics. I think it
`was well understood across the entire spectrum of
`engineering that -- what a low-power mode was good
`for.
` By 1998 we all had laptops. We knew how
`to make them sleep to preserve the battery. By 1998
`we had mobile phones that would benefit by having a
`sleep mode to preserve the battery.
` It was very fundamental. It would be,
`like, under -- it's so fundamental I would say -- I
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`25
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`would safely say every electronic engineer
`understood the benefits of low power, if it were
`applicable. And if it brought benefits and it were
`possible just not to -- not something that was novel
`at the time.
` Q I apologize. Maybe my question was not
`well phrased.
` In the context of multi-carrier
`transceivers, in the context of multi-carrier
`transceivers, what informs your understanding of
`low-power modes in 1998?
` A I would repeat that -- that it wouldn't
`matter if it were multi-carrier transceivers or
`single-carrier transceivers or personal computers.
`Low-power mode is a very common notion in
`electronics engineering.
` And it would be obvious to the POSITA
`that -- the person with ordinary skill in the art,
`that low-power mode is beneficial if it has an
`application.
` Q So you don't believe there are specific
`challenges associated with implementing a low-power
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`26
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`mode in multi-carrier transceivers?
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection. Form.
` A There are challenges.
` Q And these challenges are unique to
`multi-carrier transceivers?
` A There are -- challenges are unique to each
`situation. Even within multi-carrier transceivers,
`there will be challenges based on architectural
`assumptions made by the chip manufacturer.
` So there are many ways to achieve a low
`power advantage in an -- in any electronic circuit.
`Even when it's performing the same task, different
`approaches to the same task will have different
`advantages.
` Q So given that you understand that there
`are special challenges with implementing a low-power
`mode with multi-carrier transceivers, what in 1998,
`what would let you understand what these special
`challenges were with implementing low-power mode in
`the multi-carrier transceiver?
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection. Form.
` A I'm sorry. I'm just trying to consider
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`27
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`the answer. Because I'm maintaining that it's --
`it's well understood in electronics engineering.
` Q What were the challenges of implementing
`low-power mode in multi-carrier transceivers in
`1998?
` A It depends on the design and what that
`multi-carrier is.
` There's -- there were many multi-carrier
`technologies in 1998. If it were discrete
`multi-tone, there might be one. If it was code
`division multiplex, another. If it's simple QAM, a
`third.
` Q Let's go with special challenges in
`implementing low-power mode with DMT multi-carriers.
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection. Form.
` A I --
` MR. McBRIDE: Sorry. Go ahead.
` A I would -- the problem would be with a
`DSL, if that's your reference, which is the primary
`user of discrete multi-tone at the time, although
`they didn't start with that, as you know. They
`began with a suppressed carrier means. In the 1995,
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`28
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`'96 time frame they switched to discrete multi-tone
`as a better technology.
` The problem that they face was the problem
`of maintaining synchronization between a central
`office and the modem in the home.
` Q So it is your understanding that
`maintaining synchronization in DMT multi-carrier
`transceivers was the main challenge in implementing
`a low-power mode?
` A I would say that is correct. It would --
`I may add it's a main challenge in any radio system
`exchanging -- in any data communication system, it's
`the main challenge.
` Q The CDSL system that you mentioned earlier
`that you worked on with ICTV --
` A I invented, actually. I have a patent on
`it. It is actually an invention.
` Q Did that have a low-power mode?
` A Again, it did not.
` Q Why not?
` A It didn't need it.
` Q It did not need a low-power mode.
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`29
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` A No. By virtue of a lo/hi, you don't need
`it.
` Q Okay.
` A There are many benefits to ADSL to have a
`low-power mode. But the benefit, the only benefit
`would have been a slight reduction of power in the
`home. So we were not -- we were not faced with it.
` The central office in a CDSL system has
`one radio per home, which is why ADSL was
`commercially challenging. It had to have one modem
`in the head end for every home. The insights and
`the commercial advantages of CDSL is it had a single
`radio listening to the cable television network, or
`at least to a neighborhood.
` And by virtue of time slotting, or the
`time sharing, if you will, of the return path, we
`obviated the need for a low-power mode. So it made
`it much more efficient.
` Q So CDSL was point-to-multipoint.
` Is that a fair statement?
` A Sure.
` Q And ADSL is point-to-point?
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` A It is capable of being --
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
` A ADSL is capable of point-to-multipoint
`also. It is more typicaly used in point-to-point.
` Q Does the --
` A They wish they could make it work.
` Q Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
` A Go ahead.
` Q So does the 1995 ADSL standard contemplate
`a point-to-multipoint system?
` A They do speak of multicast, which is
`point-to-multipoint.
` Q So you understand multicast to be
`point-to-multipoint?
` A By definition.
` Q Okay. I'm going to hand you U.S. Patent
`Number 9,094,268. That's the '268 patent.
` A Thank you.
` Q Just so that you have it for your use.
` A Thank you very much.
` Q That's Exhibit Number 1001.
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`31
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` (Dish Exhibit 1001, previously marked,
`retained by counsel.)
` Q And this is U.S. Patent 8,611,404 that's
`marked Exhibit 1001. And that's the '404 patent.
` A Thank you.
` (Dish Exhibit 1001, previously marked,
`retained by counsel.)
` Q So I would like to speak a little bit
`about your analysis that underpinned your opinion.
` So did you identify the references that
`form your obviousness challenges yourself?
` A I did not by myself.
` Q So --
` A The references were established.
` Q So were you given the references that
`were -- that form a part of your declaration by
`counsel?
` A I was.
` MR. McBRIDE: I just want to counsel the
`witness not to reveal any work product or
`attorney-client privileged information.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
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` MR. McBRIDE: You can answer to the
`generalities, but no specifics on it.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
` Q Did you separately undertake a search for
`additional references that are not a part of your
`declaration?
` A I did.
` Q You did. And are those marked as exhibits
`in this -- in your declaration?
` A I believe so.
` Q Okay. But they do not form a part of your
`obviousness challenge, of your obviousness ground?
` MR. McBRIDE: Objection. Form.
` A It -- some of it, yes.
` Q Okay.
` A Some of my references did.
` Q Let's get some background terms out of the
`way.
` So you are familiar with what a DSL modem
`is?
` A Yes.
` Q And is it a type of multi-carrier
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`Conducted on May 3, 2017
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`33
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`transceiver?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. In the context of DSL systems, are
`you familiar with the term "customer premises
`equipment"?
` A Yes.
` Q And what is a customer premises equipment?
` A CPE, as it is called, is a device to
`connect a location to a central facility, like a
`central office. And usually for data exchange. It
`could also be such -- a telephone is considered CPE,
`a telephone in the home.
` Q But -- go ahead.
` A No. Please.
` Q Is a telephone a DSL modem?
` A No.
` Q Okay.
` A It's CPE, though, customer premises
`equipment.
` Q By virtue of it being at the customer's
`premises?
` A Correct.
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`Conducted on May 3, 2017
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`34
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` Q Are you familiar with the term "central
`office modem"?
` A Yes.
` Q And what is a central office modem?
` A Central office modem is the -- is a
`transceiver in a central location, such as a central
`office, for connecti