`Ian CrayfordIan Crayford
`
`3/16/20173/16/2017
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`--------------------------------
`JUNIPER NETWORKS, INC., ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,942,107
` Petitioner, ) Case IPR2016-01391
` )
` vs. ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,155,012
` ) Case IPR2016-01389
`CHRIMAR SYSTEMS, INC., )
` ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,902,760
` Patent Owner. ) Case IPR2016-01399
`--------------------------------
`RUCKUS WIRELESS, INC., BROCADE ) U.S. Patent No.
`COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, INC. AND ) 8,942,107
`NETGEAR, INC., ) Case IPR2017-00718
` )
` Petitioner, ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,155,012
` vs. ) Case IPR2017-00790
` )
`CHRIMAR SYSTEMS, INC., ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,902,760
` Patent Owner. ) Case IPR2017-00719
`--------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF IAN CRAYFORD
` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
` THURSDAY, MARCH 16, 2017
`
`Job No. 2558546
`
`Reported by:
`RICKI Q. MELTON, RPR
`CSR No. 9400
`
`PAGES 1 - 219
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`CHRIMAR 2039
`
`

`

`
`Ian CrayfordIan Crayford
`
`3/16/20173/16/2017
`
`Page 2
`
`Page 4
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`APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL (Continued):
`
` FOR RUCKUS WIRELESS, INC., NETGEAR, INC., AND
`
` BROCADE COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS:
`
` DUANE MORRIS LLP
`
` BY: CHRIS TYSON, ESQ.
`
` 505 9th Street NW
`
` Suite 1000
`
` Washington D.C. 20004
`
` (202) 776-7851
`
` cjtyson@duanemorris.com
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` MIKE FLEMING
`
` (Appearance via telephone)
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`--------------------------------
`JUNIPER NETWORKS, INC., ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,942,107
` Petitioner, ) Case IPR2016-01391
` )
` vs. ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,155,012
` ) Case IPR2016-01389
`CHRIMAR SYSTEMS, INC., )
` ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,902,760
` Patent Owner. ) Case IPR2016-01399
`--------------------------------
`RUCKUS WIRELESS, INC., BROCADE ) U.S. Patent No.
`COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, INC. AND ) 8,942,107
`NETGEAR, INC., ) Case IPR2017-00718
` )
` Petitioner, ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,155,012
` vs. ) Case IPR2017-00790
` )
`CHRIMAR SYSTEMS, INC., ) U.S. Patent No.
` ) 8,902,760
` Patent Owner. ) Case IPR2017-00719
`--------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION of IAN CRAYFORD, taken at 1800 Avenue of
`the Stars, Suite 900, Los Angeles, California,
`commencing at 9:09 A.M., Thursday, March 16, 2017,
`before Ricki Q. Melton, CSR 9400, RPR 45429.
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`Page 5
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` I N D E X
`
`THURSDAY, MARCH 16, 2017
`
`WITNESS: EXAMINATION
`
`IAN CRAYFORD
`
` (By Mr. Lewry) 8
` (P.M. Session) 97
` (By Ms. Gordnia) 215
`
` UNANSWERED QUESTIONS
` (None)
`
` INFORMATION REQUESTED
` (None)
`
`
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
`
` FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` IRELL & MANELLA LLP
` BY: TALIN GORDNIA, ESQ.
` JONATHAN S. KAGAN, ESQ.
` 1800 Avenue of the Stars
` Suite 900
` Los Angeles, California 90067
` (310) 277-1010
` tgordnia@irell.com
`
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` BROOKS KUSHMAN
` BY: THOMAS LEWRY, ESQ.
` (Appearance via video conference)
` 1000 Town Center
` Twenty-Second Floor
` Southfield, Michigan 48075
` (248) 226-2753
` tlewry@brookskushman.com
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`CHRIMAR 2039
`
`

`

`
`Ian CrayfordIan Crayford
`
`3/16/20173/16/2017
`
`Page 6
`
`Page 8
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` LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, MARCH 16, 2017
`
` 9:09 A.M.
`
` -o0o-
`
` IAN CRAYFORD,
`
` the witness, having been first administered
`
` an oath in accordance with CCP section 2094,
`
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q Good morning.
`
` A Good morning.
`
` Q Is it "Dr." or "Mr. Crayford"?
`
` A "Mr."
`
` Q Okay. Thank you, Mr. Crayford. I am
`
` Tom Lewry, and I'm here today. I'm a lawyer at the
`
` firm Brooks Kushman, and we're doing this today by
`
` video conference, as you know.
`
` So to start out with, what I'd like to do
`
` is -- just for the court reporter's sake -- identify
`
` myself and the matters for which this deposition is
`
` being taken.
`
` So there are -- again, I'm Thomas Lewry from
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` DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
`
` IAN CRAYFORD
`
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED
`
`Exhibit 1002-107 Declaration of Ian 13
`
` Crayford Regarding
`
` U.S. Patent No.
`
` 8,942,107.
`
`Exhibit 1010 Maximum Bandwidth A 23
`
` Serious Guide to
`
` High-Speed Networking.
`
`Exhibit 1006-107 DocServ/WEB/Pull 61
`
` Slip.
`
`Exhibit 1007-107 Archive IEEE 61
`
` Standard.
`
`Exhibit 1008-107 IEEE Std 802.3u- 61
`
` 1995, Supplement to
`
` 802.3.
`
`Exhibit 1001-107 United States Patent 69
`
` No. US 8,942,107 B2.
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` Brooks Kushman. We represent Chrimar Systems, Inc.,
`
` and Chrimar Systems, Inc., is the patent owner in a
`
` series of inter partes reviews in the United States
`
` Patent and Trademark Office.
`
` We have sent the court reporter by e-mail
`
` the captions for eight different IPRs, which is the
`
` acronym we're using for inter partes review, and six
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` of those are officially instituted and consolidated
`
` together in one form or another, I guess, and then
`
` there are two others which have not been officially
`
` consolidated but we're assuming they will be in the
`
` near future. So I'm proceeding on that assumption.
`
` And, for the court reporter's sake, I'm not
`
` going to read off all the IPR numbers. If -- if --
`
` Ricki, if you don't get the e-mail and don't have the
`
` numbers, we can certainly give those to you, but that
`
` would be a lengthy process to go through all the
`
` numbers.
`
` In any event, Mr. Crayford, do you
`
` understand that you are here today to testify with
`
` respect to certain IPRs filed by Juniper Networks,
`
` Inc.?
`
` A Yes, I do.
`
` Q Okay. And there are -- there are four
`
` separate IPRs that were filed by Juniper to your
`
`
`
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`
` DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
`
` IAN CRAYFORD
`
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED
`
`Exhibit 1003-107 International 98
`
` Application Published
`
` Under The Patent
`
` Cooperation Treaty
`
` (PCT).
`
`Exhibit 1004-107 United States Patent 99
`
` Number 5,089,927.
`
`Exhibit 1005-107 United States Patent 165
`
` 4,173,714.
`
`Exhibit 1009-107 United States Patent 165
`
` 4,046,972.
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`CHRIMAR 2039
`
`

`

`
`Ian CrayfordIan Crayford
`
`3/16/20173/16/2017
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 12
`
` understanding; is that correct?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q Okay. And you are also -- you were also
`
` retained, I understand, by Ruckus and Brocade with
`
` respect to four IPRs that they filed; is that
`
` correct?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q And so you're here today with respect to
`
` those IPRs as well; is that right?
`
` A Yes, I am.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Tom, can -- should we just
`
` state our names for the record?
`
` MR. LEWRY: Yeah. That's a good point. I
`
` skipped that part. Thank you.
`
` MS. GORDNIA: So Talin Gordnia for
`
` petitioner Juniper Networks, Inc.
`
` MR. TYSON: And Chris Tyson with Duane
`
` Morris, and I'm here for Ruckus Wireless, Brocade
`
` Communication, and Netgear, Inc.
`
` MS. GORDNIA: And before we continue, Tom,
`
` so you mentioned a number of IPRs you were referring
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` Is that okay if we have that understanding?
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` A Yes, thank you.
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Yes.
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q Thanks.
`
` All right. And then if you'd diverge from
`
` that, I'll try to make sure I -- I let you know.
`
` And then in terms of exhibits -- more of the
`
` housekeeping stuff here.
`
` In terms of exhibits, we have a set of
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` exhibits that Talin was kind enough to bring that are
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` copies of the exhibits that were filed in the various
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` IPRs, and then we also have a few additional exhibits
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` that the court reporter has that I will be having
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` marked, and then we'll deal with those as those come
`
` up as well.
`
` So as a starting point, can we start with
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` Mr. Crayford's declaration. I think we asked you to,
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` you know, give us one copy of that, and I know they
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` were -- they were filed in each of the different
`
` cases, but if we have the 107 version of
`
` Mr. Crayford's declaration.
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` to. You said six and then eight.
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` You are referring to the joinder IPRs --
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` correct? -- those additional numbers --
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`Page 11
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` MR. LEWRY: That's correct.
`
` MS. GORDNIA: -- beyond the four?
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` And because we have a number of IPRs and a
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` number of patents here, to the extent it makes sense,
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` I think it would be good if you could identify if you
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` are talking about a particular petition or particular
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` patent or declaration just to make things clearer
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` throughout the day for Mr. Crayford.
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` MR. LEWRY: I will do that. Thank you, yes.
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` MS. GORDNIA: Thank you.
`
` MR. LEWRY: And so we can be on the same
`
` page for at least most of this, I'm going to focus
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` primarily on the IPR that deals with the '107 patent.
`
` Q And if I use that phrase "'107 patent,"
`
` Mr. Crayford, you know what I'm referring to?
`
` A Yes, I do.
`
` Q Okay. And just for the record, that is
`
` U.S. patent No. 8,942,107, and the IPR number that's
`
` associated with that -- I'll have to get that
`
` apparently -- is IPR2016-01391. That's the Juniper
`
` version of it. There's also a Ruckus, Brocade,
`
` et cetera, version of the same thing.
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` So if I don't specify otherwise, my
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` questions are focused on that particular patent and
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` the IPR related to that.
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` MS. GORDNIA: Sure.
`
` THE REPORTER: Do I have that or you
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` have that?
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`Page 13
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` MS. GORDNIA: I'm going to give it to you --
` THE REPORTER: Okay. Very good.
` MS. GORDINA: -- so you can mark it, and
` then you can give it to Mr. Crayford.
` MR. LEWRY: So we're going to have that
` called Exhibit 1002-107, if you would.
` (Exhibit 1002-107 was marked for
` identification by the reporter
` and is attached hereto.)
` BY MR. LEWRY:
` Q Mr. Crayford, as we proceed through this, if
` at any time I ask a question and either you can't
` hear me or you don't understand me for whatever
` reason or if you just don't understand the question,
` please let me know and I'll try to clarify as best I
` can.
` A Sure. Thank you.
` Q Okay. And before we get started into the
` exhibit there, can you just tell me briefly what have
` you done to prepare for your deposition today.
` A I met with counsel yesterday, and we spent
` some time reviewing material. I've also on my own
` reviewed the -- the -- and you'll excuse me if I use
` this terminology. I actually know there's four
` instituted. It was, kind of, new news to me that the
`
`
`
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`
`CHRIMAR 2039
`
`

`

`
`Ian CrayfordIan Crayford
`
`3/16/20173/16/2017
`
`Page 14
`
`Page 16
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` other ones have been instituted. So I'm stuck with
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` the thing -- I keep thinking there's four. So if
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` you'll excuse my phraseology there, but --
`
` So I reviewed the four declarations. I've
`
` reviewed the supporting material for them. Pretty
`
` much -- yeah, the materials surrounding the IPRs.
`
` Q Okay. And you say you met with counsel.
`
` Who in particular did you meet with?
`
` A Talin Gordnia, Chris Tyson, who are both
`
` present here, and Mike Fleming was also on the phone
`
` yesterday.
`
` Q Okay. Thanks.
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` it, are based on what you would believe a person of
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` ordinary skill in the art would think putting
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` yourself in that person's shoes; is that fair?
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` A That's fair.
`
` Q But in real life, you are somebody of more
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` than ordinary skill in the art; is that true?
`
` A I mean it's a very subjective opinion, but
`
` certainly I've got a lot of industry experience.
`
` Q All right. A lot more than three years; is
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` that fair?
`
` A Yes, I would say that's fair.
`
` Q Okay. And you have a B.S. degree in
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` And I don't have any problem with calling
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` them four IPRs. My understanding is -- and it's not
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` really relevant here, but my understanding is the
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` other four IPRs are mirrors of the Juniper four IPRs.
`
` So either way, four is good for me too.
`
` A Okay. Thank you.
`
` Q All right. So starting with the exhibit
`
` we've identified here as 1002-1007, is that the
`
` declaration that you prepared for the '107 patent in
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` the Juniper IPR process?
`
` A Yes, it is.
`
` Q Okay. And I'd like to start with paragraph
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` 50, if you could turn to that paragraph, please.
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` electrical engineering or computer science; correct?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Do you have any other degrees?
`
` A No, I do not.
`
` Q One of the items that you have in paragraph
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` 50 that you say a person of ordinary skill in the art
`
` would have in terms of their experience and education
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` was -- would be knowledge of the behavior of data
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` communication products available on the market.
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` Do you see that? It's the last part of the
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` paragraph there.
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` A Yes, I see it.
`
` Q And why was that important to include in
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`Page 17
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`Page 15
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` It's on page 17.
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` And -- and paragraph 50 is in a section
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` that's labeled "Level of Ordinary Skill."
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` Do you see that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And paragraph 50, you're identifying what
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` you believe to be a person of ordinary skill in the
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` art; is that correct?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q And how did you come to this definition of
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` the person of ordinary skill?
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` A Well, having worked in the industry for
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` the -- as part of the person of ordinary skill in the
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` art's knowledge?
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` A I believe it would be important because --
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` well, obviously for prior art reason, if something
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` was already available in the market, it was -- and
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` what was not available as much as anything. So we
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` could establish what things were being developed
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` versus what things were readily available, if -- if
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` that makes sense.
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` Q Sure.
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` Is part of it that there was -- we'll put
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` time frames on this.
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` I think, in your declaration here, you
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` quite a number of years -- and I believe this is a
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` reasonable expectation -- I don't think there's any
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` dispute between Chrimar and our own opinion in
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` roughly the same terms, if I'm not mistaken.
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` Q Okay. As you sit here today, do you
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` consider yourself to be someone who is -- who has
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` more than ordinary skill?
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` A What I would say is I tried to apply my
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` opinions to the -- to the related art of someone of
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` my skill at that point in time, in around the '98
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` time frame. So I tried to, kind of, transport myself
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` back to there.
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` Q Okay. And so your opinions, as I understand
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` indicate that the relevant time frame is either '97
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` or '98, but it really does not matter which of the
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` two; is that right?
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` A I don't think it makes much material
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` difference, but it's -- I can't be precise. I
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` wouldn't want to be held down to something that says,
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` if it didn't happen by '98, that it was irrelevant,
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` but yeah, in that time frame.
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` Q Okay. If you want to be more precise, I'm
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` happy to be more precise. You can tell me which date
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` you would like to use. That's fine with me, but I'm
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` happy with the '97/'98 too, if that works for you.
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` A That's fine with me.
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` Q Okay. So one of the reasons I would assume
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` that it's important to know, as a person of ordinary
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` skill in the art, the behavior of data communication
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` products available in the market as of '97/'98 is
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` because there was already installed sets of networks
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` at that time; correct?
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` A Yes, there were.
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` Q And in '97/'98, there were 10BASE-T networks
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` installed; correct?
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` A Yes, certainly.
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` Q And in '97/'98, there were also some
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` published as a supplement, as an individual booklet,
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` and then at some point in -- as time goes forward,
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` when they republish the standard, which they do
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` periodically to take care of things like maintenance
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` requests so corrections in the existing standards --
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` they incorporate any new material that's being
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` ratified and published as a standard. So basically
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` over time, the document continues to grow as more
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` standards get folded in.
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` So as I said, 802.3, 10BASE-T was published
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` in 1988 as 802.3i, but then was incorporated in --
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` what I call -- the suite of clauses, which was all of
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` 100BASED-T networks installed; is that right?
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` 802.3 in '93.
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` A That's correct.
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` Q And then there are standards that are
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` associated with those networks; right?
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` A Correct.
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` 802.3 is the kind of standards -- sorry. So
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` 802.3, like a decimal dot, within IEEE is the
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` standard setting body for what the industry
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` generically returns -- sorry -- refers to as
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` ethernet.
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` So 10BASE-T was defined in approximately
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` 1990. It was ratified. It was developed from
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` 1990 -- from 1988 through 1990, and then 100BASE-T
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` Q Okay. And so if we're referring to 10BASE-T
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` with respect to the standard, is it the '93 standard,
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` the '90, or can -- can we not tell exactly?
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` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. Let -- let me
`
` try this and see if I answer your question.
`
` To the best of my knowledge, when the 1990
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` version of 10BASE-T was published in the 1993 version
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` of IEEE, there were no material changes between the
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` 10BASE-T that was first published and the 10BASE-T
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` that ended up being in the full document.
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` So for the purposes of what we're
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`Page 21
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` was developed, and subsequent to that -- can't be
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` precise when it started, but I would estimate in the
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` '93 time frame, and it was completed and ratified by
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` 802.3 around -- sometime in 1995.
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` So your assumption is correct, but by 1997,
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` there were certainly 100BASED-T networks.
`
` Q Okay. And it's your view that a person of
`
` ordinary skill in the art would be aware of those
`
` standards at the time '97/'98?
`
` A Yes, I believe so.
`
` Q And so they would be aware -- let me jump
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` ahead a little bit, but two of the references that
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` discussing, if we talk 10BASE-T, we can assume it's
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` encompassed in that 1993 document.
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` BY MR. LEWRY:
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` Q Okay. And then the '95 document, the IEEE
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` 802.3 1995 document that you rely on, what does that
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` describe?
`
` A The 1995, again to my recollection, is the
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` suite of standards that was or became 100BASE-T, and
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` there were sufficient of those standards that they
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` got published as a separate book. A group of
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` clauses -- I can't remember exactly, but I think from
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` clause 21 or 22 to up to clause -- I think at least
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` 28 because I was working on 28, but let's just say
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` you rely on for one of your combinations are an IEEE
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` specification for 802.3 from 1993 and another one
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` from '95; is that correct?
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` A That's correct.
`
` Q Okay. And so what is the 1993 specification
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` that you rely on? What does that cover?
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` A It covers 10BASE-T. It's actually -- if I'm
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` not mistaken, I believe it's the first time that
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` 10BASE-T, as a -- as a clause, is incorporated with
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` the other documents of IEEE.
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` So the way IEEE operates is, when a new
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` project is authorized, they write the specification.
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` The specification gets approved. It gets normally
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` there were a group of clauses which accounted for the
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` various different pieces that were required for
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` 100BASE-T.
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` Q Okay. And so if we're talking about
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` 100BASE-T, the standard, we're generally talking
`
` about the document from 1995; is that fair?
`
` A That's correct. That was the first
`
` publication of 100BASE-T.
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` Q Okay. And would you agree that, as of 1997,
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` the standard 10BASE-T ethernet is still the most
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` common type of network architecture in use as of that
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` time?
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` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form. Foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: 10BASE-T was certainly
`
` becoming highly prevalent, but for instance, at the
`
` time in the '97/'98 time frame, I was actually
`
` working at Bay Networks, and I was actually building
`
` a switch which had an ATM backplane and Token Ring
`
` and ethernet front panel ports. We've got 4/16
`
` megabit Token Ring and 10 100BASE-T ethernet.
`
` So, for instance, there was a huge
`
` entrenched base of IBM still in the marketplace. So
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` the Token Ring was still a popular network. My
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` personal bias would say 10BASE-T -- and it did win.
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` the -- each of them work. I'm not sure it has what I
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` would term a survey which is, for instance, you know,
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` market data on numbers of ports shipped and things
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` like that, but it certainly talks about each of the
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` technologies.
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q Okay. That's fair.
`
` So if you could look at page 99 of that, and
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` I think there's two sets of page numbers here. So it
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` may be confusing as to which one, and I have to
`
` figure out which one of the 99's. It's page 99 using
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` the Juniper page numbering.
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` It won over all the other networks. So 10 and a
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` 100BASE-T and ultimately gigabit were the -- the --
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` are now the predominant networks out in the
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` marketplace and everything else is very small, but I
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` think it's fair to say, in that time frame, the jury
`
` was still somewhat out.
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q Okay. And for the court reporter's benefit,
`
` it might help if you speak a little more slowly. I
`
` know you are speaking the right English and we're
`
` speaking the wrong English, but it's harder for us to
`
` understand it a all the time.
`
` A I understand.
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` A Okay. So are you referring to the page
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` marked "Fast Ethernet" --
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` Q Yes.
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` A -- "Chapter 4"?
`
` Q Correct.
`
` And the first sentence there says:
`
` "Standard 10Base-T Ethernet is
`
` still the most common type of
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` network architecture in use
`
` today."
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` Do you see that sentence?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Do you know -- would you think that
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`Page 25
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` MR. LEWRY: Okay. So if -- Talin, if you
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` could get Exhibit 1010 for us, please. I think you
`
` should only had have one version of that. Let's mark
`
` that as Exhibit 1010. I don't think it needs an
`
` extension on it.
`
` (Exhibit 1010 was marked for
`
` identification by the reporter
`
` and is attached hereto.)
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q So Exhibit 1010 is one of the documents you
`
` reference in your declaration; correct?
`
` A That's correct.
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` statement here is reasonably accurate?
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` A I apologize. I'm trying to look for a
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` publication date.
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` Q Sure. If you look at Juniper page 6, I
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` think you'll find a copyright date there of 1997.
`
` A Okay. I see it. It's on my page 8, but --
`
` but...
`
` Q Okay. I'm sorry. You're right. It is
`
` page 8.
`
` A Yes. So I would say not by -- you know,
`
` '97, that's certainly a reasonable -- that's a
`
` reasonable -- as I said, there were would be other
`
` people in the Token Ring fraternity at that time that
`
` Q What is Exhibit 1010, if you could just
`
` describe it in overview for us?
`
` A It's a -- a collection of -- a collection
`
` of -- by chapters of various different network
`
` technologies, and obviously maximum bandwidth.
`
` It's -- it's called a Serious Guide to High-speed
`
` Networking.
`
` Q And there's a -- sort of a survey of the
`
` various kinds of networking capabilities that were in
`
` the market as of '97?
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure "survey" is the
`
` right word. It's kind of an overview of how each of
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` would argue vehemently that was not the case, but I
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` would believe it the case.
`
` Q Okay. And then if you look at page 157 --
`
` and I don't want to belabor this, but Juniper
`
` page 157, you'll see it says basically the same thing
`
` in a slightly different context, but...
`
` A Yes. This is the "IsoEthernet" page; is
`
` that correct.
`
` Q Correct. Yes.
`
` A Okay. Yeah, and the first sentence --
`
` Q If you could just read that --
`
` A Yeah, and the first sentence --
`
`
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` Q -- Just read the first sentences.
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` A "The vast majority of network
`
` installations are still 10Base-T
`
` Ethernet."
`
` Q All right. And just so we're clear, fast
`
` ethernet is another term that's used for 100BASE-T
`
` ethernet; is that right?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q And ISO ethernet was a combination of
`
` it as a person of ordinary skill in the art?
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form foundation
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` and relevance.
`
` THE WITNESS: As I said, I don't think I --
`
` I didn't give an opinion on protocol per se because
`
` it really wasn't required, but I'm happy to look at
`
` the definition I gave for detection protocol.
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q Okay. You are free to do that. I'm not
`
` asking for it specifically in that context.
`
` I'm just trying to understand, you know, for
`
` people who are not computer engineers or computer
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` technologies that were higher speed than 10BASE-T
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` scientists, you know, when somebody uses a word like
`
` ethernet; is that fair?
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: The ISO ethernet was a
`
` combination of 10BASE-T and ISDN, and it resulted in,
`
` yes, you put two networking technologies together and
`
` try to get them over the same cable. There's an
`
` increase in frequency, but there would be -- it was
`
` basically 10BASE-T and ISDN -- ISDN merged together.
`
` So there's no more net bandwidth in ISDN. There's no
`
` more net bandwidth in the ethernet. It's -- so...
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q But the protocols allowed speeds to be
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` "protocol," it doesn't necessarily have any meaning,
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` although I think it does to those in the field.
`
` I'm just trying to understand and get some
`
` common baseline understanding of the term "protocol"
`
` in the generic sense.
`
` Do you have a view as to -- you know, how
`
` would you describe a protocol to somebody who isn't
`
` in your field?
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form, foundation,
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` and relevance.
`
` THE WITNESS: Okay. If I'm not missing
`
` something, I don't think the '107, which is the only
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` greater; is that fair?
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` A The overall data carrying capacity of the
`
` channel was increased, being the -- but the -- you
`
` know, you still couldn't get any more than 10
`
` megabits out of the ethernet piece of it. You
`
` couldn't get any more than 64 kilobits out of the
`
` ISDN piece, but you got 10 megabits plus 64 kilobits.
`
` So...
`
` Q You just used the word "protocol" there.
`
` Do you understand that term "protocol"?
`
` MS. GORDNIA: Objection. Form, foundation,
`
` relevance.
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` document I have, has the -- has a claim for detection
`
` protocol. Could you --
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q It does actually. I can --
`
` A It does?
`
` Q -- get you there if you want to find it.
`
` A I'm struggling to find it.
`
` Q Let me see here if I can find it quickly.
`
` It's one of the dependant claims.
`
` MS. GORDINA: It's under the --
`
` MR. LEWRY: Dependent. Yes.
`
` Q One of the dependent -- it's claim 72,
`
` page 50 of your declaration is the first time you
`
` THE WITNESS: Protocol -- well, I don't
`
` think I gave an opinion on what protocol was, but I
`
` think the only opinion I gave -- was in my report --
`
` was based on detection protocol which is in one or
`
` more of the claims, but someone of ordinary skill in
`
` the art would understand a protocol.
`
` There are many different types. There are
`
` complicated protocols. There are extremely simple
`
` protocols. Protocols -- yeah, so...
`
` BY MR. LEWRY:
`
` Q And