·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`·4· ·APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · · · :
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`·5· · · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · :
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`·6· · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · ·:· ·Case IPR2016-01381
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`·7· ·IMMERSION CORPORATION,· · · · :· ·Patent 8,773,356
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`·8· · · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · :
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`·9· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`10
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`11
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`12· · · · · Deposition of DR. PATRICK M. BAUDISCH
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Reston, Virginia
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`14· · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, May 17, 2017
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · 9:14 a.m.
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`16
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`17 S
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`23· Job No.:· 203543
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`24· Pages:· 1 - 92
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`25· Reported By:· Christina S. Hotsko, RPR
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`·4· ·APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · · · :
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`·5· · · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · :
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`·6· · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · ·:· ·Case IPR2016-01381
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`·7· ·IMMERSION CORPORATION,· · · · :· ·Patent 8,773,356
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`·8· · · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · :
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`·9· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`10
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`11
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`12· · · · · Deposition of DR. PATRICK M. BAUDISCH
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Reston, Virginia
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`14· · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, May 17, 2017
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · 9:14 a.m.
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`16
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`17 S
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`22
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`23· Job No.:· 203543
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`24· Pages:· 1 - 92
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`25· Reported By:· Christina S. Hotsko, RPR
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`·1· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2
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`·3· On Behalf of Petitioner:
`· · NICHOLAS PANNO, ESQUIRE
`·4· DLA Piper, LLP
`· · One Fountain Square
`·5· 11911 Freedom Drive, Suite 300
`· · Reston, Virginia 20190-5602
`·6· (703) 773-4157
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`·7· ROBERT C. WILLIAMS, ESQUIRE
`· · DLA Piper, LLP
`·8· 401 B Street, Suite 1700
`· · San Diego, California 92101-4297
`·9· (619) 699-2820
`
`10· BRIAN K. ERICKSON, ESQUIRE (Via Telephone)
`· · DLA Piper, LLP
`11· 401 Congress Avenue, Suite 2500
`· · Austin, Texas 78701-3799
`12· (512) 457-7059
`
`13
`· · On Behalf of Patent Owner:
`14· MICHAEL R. FLEMING, ESQUIRE
`· · JAMES A. MILKEY, ESQUIRE
`15· Irell & Manella, LLP
`· · 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
`16· Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
`· · (310) 277-1010
`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·C O N T E N T S
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`·2· EXAMINATION BY:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· · · ·Counsel for Patent Owner· · · · · · · · · · ·04
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`·4· · · ·Counsel for Petitioner· · · · · · · · · · · ·90
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`10· · · · · · (Exhibits attached to transcript)
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`· · 2005· Paper, "Gesture Output:· Eyes-Free· · · · · 77
`12· · · ·Output Using a Force Feedback
`· · · · ·Touch Surface"
`13
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`14
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`15· PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS:· · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`16· 1001· Patent Number U.S. 8,773,356· · · · · · · · 29
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`17· 1002· Baudisch Declaration· · · · · · · · · · · · 15
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`18· 1007· Rosenberg 737 Patent Application· · · · · · 31
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`19· 1030· Rosenberg Patent Application· · · · · · · · 21
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· Whereupon,
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`·3· · · · · · · · ·DR. PATRICK M. BAUDISCH,
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`·4· being first duly sworn or affirmed to testify to the
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`·5· truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
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`·6· examined and testified as follows:
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`·7· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT OWNER
`
`·8· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`·9· · · · Q· ·Could you please state your name and home
`
`10· address for the record?
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`11· · · · A· ·My name is Patrick Baudisch.· Patrick Martin
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`12· Baudisch.· And I live at Oranienburger Straße 17 in
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`13· 10178, Berlin.· In Germany.
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`14· · · · Q· ·You understand that you have taken an oath
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`15· to tell the truth?
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`16· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`17· · · · Q· ·You understand that this oath is of the same
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`18· force and effect as if given in court of law before a
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`19· judge and jury?
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`20· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`21· · · · Q· ·Is there anything preventing you from giving
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`22· full and accurate answers today?
`
`23· · · · A· ·No.
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`24· · · · Q· ·Is there any reason you cannot give your
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`25· best testimony today?
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`·1· · · · A· ·There's no reason.
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`·2· · · · Q· ·If you do not ask me to clarify a question,
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`·3· I will assume you understood the question; is that
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`·4· fair?
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`·5· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Are you represented by counsel today?
`
`·7· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Can you identify them?
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`·9· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Yes.· Nick Panno.· I'm with
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`10· DLA Piper, counsel for --
`
`11· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· And Rob Williams.
`
`12· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· And on the phone?
`
`13· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Oh.
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`14· · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Brian Erickson with DLA Piper
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`15· on the phone.
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`16· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`17· · · · Q· ·You understand you're under oath even when
`
`18· we take a break?
`
`19· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·You understand that when you are under oath,
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`21· you're not to discuss the case while on break or with
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`22· anyone outside of this room?
`
`23· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · Q· ·You understand that when you're under oath,
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`25· your counsel cannot coach you, act as an immediate,
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`·1· interpret questions, or help you answer the questions.
`
`·2· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · Q· ·You understand that your counsel cannot
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`·4· instruct you not to answer the question unless it's
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`·5· necessary to preserve privilege?
`
`·6· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`·7· · · · Q· ·You understand that unless your counsel
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`·8· instructs you not to answer in order to preserve
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`·9· privilege, you must answer the question?
`
`10· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · Q· ·Did anything -- did you do anything to
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`12· prepare for the deposition today?
`
`13· · · · A· ·I reviewed the relevant materials and I
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`14· spent time with counsel.
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`15· · · · Q· ·How long did you take to review the relevant
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`16· materials?
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`17· · · · A· ·I'd say maybe three days, plus/minus, four,
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`18· five.· I don't know.
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`19· · · · Q· ·Did you meet with your attorneys?
`
`20· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`21· · · · Q· ·How long did you meet with your attorneys?
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`22· · · · A· ·Two days.
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`23· · · · Q· ·So you mentioned you reviewed the relevant
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`24· materials.· What documents did you review?
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`25· · · · A· ·So specifically, my own declaration, the
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`·1· 356, the 737, the 281, the institution decision, and
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`·2· also the Delson declaration, and various other things
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`·3· in less detail than that.
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·I see that you brought documents with you.
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`·5· · · · A· ·Yeah.
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`·6· · · · Q· ·Can we look at them?
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`·7· · · · A· ·Absolutely.
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`·8· · · · Q· ·For time, we have all the relevant
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`·9· documents.· We would prefer to just present them to
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`10· you and you use them instead of these documents.· Do
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`11· you have a problem with that?
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`12· · · · A· ·I would actually like to use the binder
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`13· because it's handy, if that's acceptable.
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`14· · · · Q· ·Is there any notes in the binder?
`
`15· · · · A· ·There's no notes in there.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·It's the exact copies?
`
`17· · · · A· ·Yeah.
`
`18· · · · Q· ·Have you ever been deposed before?
`
`19· · · · A· ·Once.
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`20· · · · Q· ·Can you tell us what that was?
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`21· · · · A· ·It was Apple versus HTC.
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`22· · · · Q· ·Have you testified in court?
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`23· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`24· · · · Q· ·For the same case or other cases?
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`25· · · · A· ·Yeah, for that case.
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`·1· · · · Q· ·Are there other matters that you are an
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`·2· expert witness on?
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`·3· · · · A· ·No.
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`·4· · · · Q· ·What constructions are you applying in your
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`·5· declaration for --
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`·6· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Excuse me, could you give the
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`·7· binder back if you're done?
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`·8· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· That's fine.
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`·9· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
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`10· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Sorry.
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`11· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Could you repeat the question?
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`12· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`13· · · · Q· ·Did we make clear -- I don't think I made
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`14· clear what IPR we were -- so for the record, this is
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`15· IPR2016-01381.· And it's the IPR that is challenging
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`16· U.S. Patent Number 8,773,356.
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`17· · · · · · So for this IPR, what constructions are you
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`18· applying in your declaration?
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`19· · · · A· ·Could you rephrase the question?
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`20· · · · Q· ·What -- you understand the word
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`21· "construction" as far as claim construction?
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`22· · · · A· ·Claim constructions?
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`23· · · · Q· ·Right.
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`24· · · · A· ·Oh, yes.· So my report on pages 20222
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`25· discusses that, and the -- I'm just going to read
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`·1· paragraph 60, which I think is the only one that seems
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`·2· to be of interest here.
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`·3· · · · · · It says, "The claim phrase generating an
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`·4· actuator signal based at least in part on the
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`·5· interaction of haptic effect data and lookup table,
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`·6· Claims 1, 12, and 22, should be construed to mean
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`·7· generating an actuator signal base at least in part on
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`·8· (1) the interaction and (2) haptic effect data and
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`·9· lookup table.
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`10· · · · · · "Nothing in the claim or the ordinary
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`11· meaning of these terms requires that the interaction
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`12· also be in the lookup table or the lookup table
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`13· comprise an association between the interaction of the
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`14· haptic effect data."
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`15· · · · · · So there's more discussion on that.· That
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`16· seems to be the only part of claim construction that
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`17· is disputed, in my understanding.
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`18· · · · Q· ·Just to make clear for the record, what
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`19· paragraph are you reading from?
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`20· · · · A· ·I was reading from paragraph 60.
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`21· · · · Q· ·Are there any other claim constructions for
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`22· this other than what was mentioned in paragraph 60?
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`23· · · · A· ·There's two others here.· So in 58 and in
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`24· 59 -- let me just read part of this out.· 58 says,
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`25· "Immersion preliminary proposed claim construction in
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`·1· the ITC investigation are provided in Exhibit 1003.
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`·2· Immersion contends that the haptic effect data should
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`·3· be construed as data identifying or describing a
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`·4· tactile sensation, and that lookup table should be
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`·5· construed as data structures containing associations
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`·6· between interactions and haptic effect data.· I do not
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`·7· agree with Immersion's proposed constructions.· For
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`·8· example, not all lookup tables contain associations
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`·9· between interactions and haptic effect data.
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`10· · · · · · "Regardless, in my opinion, the claims are
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`11· invalid in the proposed construction."
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`12· · · · · · The other paragraph is 59, and it talks
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`13· about determining should be construed to mean
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`14· ascertaining.
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`15· · · · Q· ·So you based your opinion here for your
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`16· declaration based on these claim constructions?
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`17· · · · A· ·So the opinions in my declaration are based
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`18· on these claim constructions.· Since I had a chance to
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`19· review the preliminary response from the PTAB and the
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`20· institution decision and the Delson declaration; and
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`21· obviously there are other claim constructions in
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`22· there, and I considered those in the past days as
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`23· well.
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`24· · · · Q· ·Are you aware that PTAB did not adopt some
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`25· of your claim constructions?
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`·1· · · · A· ·I think the relevant passage here is from
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`·2· the institution decision on page 9.· PTAB says, "For
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`·3· purposes of this decision, we need not construe
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`·4· explicitly any claim language to determine that there
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`·5· is a reasonable likelihood of petitioners prevailing
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`·6· on claim challenge."
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`·7· · · · · · And they also point out, obviously, that the
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`·8· broadest reasonable construction is to be applied in
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`·9· these things.
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`10· · · · · · Is that what you meant?
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`11· · · · Q· ·So they didn't -- they didn't have a claim
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`12· construction for -- other than one of ordinary skill
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`13· in the art for some of the terms where you had; isn't
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`14· that correct?
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`15· · · · A· ·Could you rephrase that question for me,
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`16· please?
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`17· · · · Q· ·Exactly what claim terms did the Patent
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`18· Office construe and left the others to just be
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`19· ordinary meaning?
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`20· · · · A· ·So the section claim construction in the
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`21· PTAB's response is brief and really just explains the
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`22· general procedure and then says, "Petitioner and
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`23· patent owner address the claim language generating an
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`24· actuator signal base at least in part on the
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`25· interaction haptic effect data and lookup table with
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`·1· the reference.· Petitioner also addresses the meaning
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`·2· of the word 'determining'."
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`·3· · · · · · And as I just already said, "For purposes of
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`·4· the decision, we need not construe explicitly any
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`·5· claim language to determine that there's a reasonable
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`·6· likelihood of petitioner prevailing on its claim
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`·7· challenge."
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`·8· · · · · · So I guess that means they're going to -- I
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`·9· guess that means they're going to apply the ordinary
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`10· and customary meaning.
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`11· · · · Q· ·So since they're applying the ordinary and
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`12· customary meaning, they haven't adopted your claim
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`13· constructions, is there anything you want to change in
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`14· your declaration?
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`15· · · · A· ·No.
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`16· · · · Q· ·I notice that you have tabs on your copy.
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`17· Is there a reason for those tabs?
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`18· · · · A· ·I was hoping it would speed us along here
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`19· today.
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`20· · · · Q· ·I think I would prefer that we give you our
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`21· copies.
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`22· · · · A· ·Do you want me to take the flags off?
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`23· · · · Q· ·We'll provide you copies that you'll need as
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`24· exhibits.
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`25· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Does someone want this?
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`·1· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Here.· That's fine.
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`·2· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· Thank you very much. I
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`·3· appreciate it.
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`·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sure.
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`·5· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`·6· · · · Q· ·We just want to make sure it's clear what
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`·7· references we're relying on and we want to make sure
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`·8· we're relying on only the references that have been
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`·9· here.
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`10· · · · A· ·Of course.
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`11· · · · Q· ·What documents did you read to prepare for
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`12· your declaration?
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`13· · · · A· ·So I read the ones I listed earlier.· And I
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`14· looked at various others, documents from the
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`15· prosecution history.
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`16· · · · Q· ·So it was only documents that were part of
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`17· the record in the prosecution history that you looked
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`18· at?
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`19· · · · A· ·Well, I certainly contemplated what parts of
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`20· related work would be relevant here.· I guess I
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`21· searched the internet at various points for additional
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`22· information.
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`23· · · · Q· ·So of the documents that you searched on the
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`24· internet, were those documents the ones that you made
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`25· a record in your declaration?
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`·1· · · · A· ·Yeah.· I'd say.
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`·2· · · · Q· ·So the declaration, then, has the complete
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`·3· record of all that you considered?
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`·4· · · · A· ·Yeah.· These are the documents that were
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`·5· relevant for me to form my opinion.
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`·6· · · · Q· ·Did you write the declaration yourself?
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`·7· · · · A· ·I did write the declaration.· And there was
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`·8· help from counsel.
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`·9· · · · Q· ·So you wrote the first draft?
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`10· · · · A· ·So the process of creating the declaration
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`11· was a process that involved several phone calls, back
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`12· and forth, drafts were sent back and forth.· I do not
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`13· recall in what order what was written, how.
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`14· · · · Q· ·Were there sections that your counsel wrote
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`15· for you?
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`16· · · · A· ·This legalese in the beginning.
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`17· · · · Q· ·Did you have other phone -- other than phone
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`18· calls, did you have face-to-face meetings in
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`19· preparation for the declaration, sorry.
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`20· · · · A· ·Oh, for the declaration?· There were no
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`21· face-to-face meetings in preparation of the
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`22· declaration.
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`23· · · · Q· ·So there were phone call conferences?
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`24· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`25· · · · Q· ·Were these phone call conferences extensive?
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`·1· · · · A· ·I wouldn't say.· I guess some of them were
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`·2· longer than an hour.· Is that extensive?
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`·3· · · · Q· ·So just to be clear, you believe that you
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`·4· have consulted all the relevant sources of information
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`·5· that may be material to the opinion that you presented
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`·6· in the declaration?
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`·7· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`·8· · · · Q· ·Okay.
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`·9· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· So I would like to present the
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`10· first exhibit, which is Exhibit 1002, which is already
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`11· part of the record.· But we'll have you mark it as
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`12· 1002 just for the record.
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`13· · · · · · (Previously marked Exhibit 1002 marked for
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`14· identification and attached to the transcript.)
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`15· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`16· · · · Q· ·Do you recognize this document that I handed
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`17· you?
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`18· · · · A· ·It looks like my declaration.
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`19· · · · Q· ·For the record, you're looking through your
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`20· declaration.· Is it your declaration?
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`21· · · · A· ·I think it is.
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`22· · · · Q· ·You have a number of publications listed in
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`23· your CV as part of your declaration.
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`24· · · · A· ·Uh-huh.
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`25· · · · Q· ·Do you have a number of publications on
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`·1· human computer interaction?
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`·2· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`·3· · · · Q· ·Have you designed any real world haptic
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`·4· feedback systems?
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`·5· · · · A· ·Yes, I did.
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`·6· · · · Q· ·Have you designed any real world haptic
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`·7· feedback systems that do not use lookup tables?
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`·8· · · · A· ·I think it would take me a while to
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`·9· determine the correct answer to that because typically
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`10· these are projects together with students.· And I
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`11· think the question if something would be a lookup
`
`12· table or, like, some other engineering choice would be
`
`13· made at that point in the code was never one that
`
`14· attracted a lot of discussion in the team.· So I would
`
`15· honestly be hard pressed to answer either way.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·So of all these projects, then, it wasn't
`
`17· particular -- you mentioned it wasn't a particular big
`
`18· deal as far as whether you used a lookup table or not?
`
`19· · · · A· ·I'm a computer scientist.· And in computer
`
`20· science, lookup tables are one of many data
`
`21· structures.· And it's one design choice one can make.
`
`22· There are others.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·I noticed from your CV you're very
`
`24· impressive with all the papers you've written and all
`
`25· the students that you've mentored.
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`Immersion Ex 2006-16
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`·1· · · · · · What programming languages are you fluent
`
`·2· in?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·My favorite language is C.
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·C?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·C.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Is there any other language that's your
`
`·7· favorite?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·I have one very clear favorite, and that's
`
`·9· C.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·Okay.· Does C support object-oriented
`
`11· programming?
`
`12· · · · A· ·It does not.· I mean, I just taught
`
`13· introductory class to programming in C, and one can
`
`14· certainly work towards those concepts, but it's not
`
`15· supported by the language.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·It's my understanding -- and I might be
`
`17· mistaken -- that C++ supports object-oriented
`
`18· programming.
`
`19· · · · A· ·It does.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·Sitting in the shoes of a person of ordinary
`
`21· skill in the art, what would a person of ordinary
`
`22· skill in the art understand the term "graphical
`
`23· object"?
`
`24· · · · A· ·Given that there's no particular claim
`
`25· construction for graphical object, I think the plain
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`·1· ordinary meaning would be -- or could be -- could
`
`·2· include an object displayed on a computer screen.
`
`·3· · · · · · Is there a particular passage where I'm
`
`·4· defining that where you want to point me to?
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·No, you're correct, there's no construction
`
`·6· that the board adopted or was argued at this point.
`
`·7· But I was just asking as a -- someone knowledgeable of
`
`·8· what one of ordinary skill in the art, what would the
`
`·9· term mean.
`
`10· · · · · · So let me just make sure I understand it.
`
`11· You're saying that on object -- a graphical object is
`
`12· an object -- can I say it this way, that is displayed
`
`13· in a graphical environment on a display?· Or would you
`
`14· rather have your definition?
`
`15· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection.· Objection to form.
`
`16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure it helps us a lot
`
`17· to talk about a graphic environment because then the
`
`18· next question would be well, what's a graphic
`
`19· environment and what does that mean.
`
`20· · · · · · Can you make this more concrete for me
`
`21· maybe?
`
`22· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`23· · · · Q· ·So can you repeat your definition, then?
`
`24· I'll accept your answer.
`
`25· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· Can you read back his
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`Immersion Ex 2006-18
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`·1· definition for the record?
`
`·2· · · · · · (The reporter read the record as requested.)
`
`·3· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·Is that still acceptable for you to say?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·I guess to give you a -- you know, a more
`
`·6· precise definition, you would have to tell me more
`
`·7· about what we're talking about.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Well, I'm just asking the general term.· As
`
`·9· a general term, yes, as a person of ordinary skill in
`
`10· the art, would they accept your definition?
`
`11· · · · A· ·If you give me more information of -- you
`
`12· know, if you add more -- it feels like we're going
`
`13· into hypotheticals.· So if you flush this out for me a
`
`14· little bit, then I think I can be more specific.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·Maybe we'll revisit it.
`
`16· · · · · · Is it always the most efficient -- well, let
`
`17· me rephrase that, I'm sorry.· It's getting ahead of
`
`18· me.
`
`19· · · · · · Is it always most efficient as far as the
`
`20· processor goes, processing time, to use a table lookup
`
`21· to provide a haptic actuation?
`
`22· · · · A· ·Well, given this is a very broad question
`
`23· and that I don't know anything about the particular
`
`24· system you're talking about, my a priori sense would
`
`25· be that it depends on a variety of factors what the
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`·1· most performative limitation would be.
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·What would be those factors?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·Can you first tell me what the alternative
`
`·4· is you're considering?· Because if you say the most
`
`·5· performant, then what other -- as an engineer, I'm
`
`·6· always weighing one possibility against another.· So
`
`·7· what other alternatives would you like me to consider?
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Well, you're the understanding expert.· I'm
`
`·9· just a mere attorney.· It seems that there is a number
`
`10· of choices, and I just was curious what -- you know,
`
`11· how do you weigh those choices and what is the factors
`
`12· that you look at?
`
`13· · · · A· ·Okay.· Simplicity, you're asking me to
`
`14· imagine some alternative solutions, I guess, then.
`
`15· · · · · · Would you like me to state an alternative
`
`16· implementation?
`
`17· · · · Q· ·Sure.
`
`18· · · · A· ·Okay.· So rather than using a lookup
`
`19· table -- lookup tables is what you said, right? -- I
`
`20· could also just try to do everything in code somehow,
`
`21· not have a particular data structure.
`
`22· · · · · · And I mean it really depends on the case.
`
`23· As a software engineer, I would consider factors such
`
`24· as run-time behavior.· So speed.· Maintenance would be
`
`25· important.· So I would think about if a system gets
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`·1· modified, how hard or easy is it to add functionality,
`
`·2· internationalization, whatever.· I could probably come
`
`·3· up with more design requirements.
`
`·4· · · · · · And then considering these I would try to
`
`·5· come up with an appropriate solution.
`
`·6· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· I'd like to present
`
`·7· Exhibit 1013.· It's part of the record.
`
`·8· · · · · · (Previously marked Exhibit 1030 marked for
`
`·9· identification and attached to the transcript.)
`
`10· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`11· · · · Q· ·Do you recognize this document?
`
`12· · · · A· ·I think I do.
`
`13· · · · Q· ·Can you explain for the record what the
`
`14· document is?
`
`15· · · · A· ·It's a patent application filed by inventor
`
`16· Louis B. Rosenberg called "Low Cost Force Feedback
`
`17· Device with Actuator for Non-Primary Axis."· And I
`
`18· think we referred to this one as the 281.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·And the reason we referred to it as the 281
`
`20· is because it's U.S. application number 09-103281.
`
`21· · · · · · Have you read this reference?
`
`22· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·When did you read this reference?
`
`24· · · · A· ·I've read it many times.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·Did you read the entire reference?
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`·1· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·When was the first time you are aware of the
`
`·3· reference?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·It must have been a year ago.
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·So you became aware of the reference for
`
`·6· this IPR?
`
`·7· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·So counsel provided you with the reference?
`
`·9· · · · A· ·It's possible.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·So can we refer to this reference as
`
`11· Rosenberg 281?
`
`12· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · Q· ·So in Rosenberg 281, you assert that there
`
`14· is an actuator signal is based on interaction and
`
`15· haptic effect data in a table lookup table.
`
`16· · · · A· ·Could you repeat that question?
`
`17· · · · Q· ·In Rosenberg 281, you assert that there is
`
`18· an actuator signal is based on an interaction and
`
`19· haptic effect data in a lookup table.
`
`20· · · · A· ·It sounds like you are referring to my
`
`21· declaration.
`
`22· · · · Q· ·No.· I'm just asking a question.· Do you
`
`23· need your declaration?
`
`24· · · · A· ·No, I have it here.· Could you re-read it
`
`25· one more time for me?
`
`Immersion Ex 2006-22
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`·1· · · · Q· ·In Rosenberg 281, you assert that there is
`
`·2· an actuator signal.· It's based on an interaction and
`
`·3· haptic effect data in a lookup table.
`
`·4· · · · · · If you're looking in the declaration, may I
`
`·5· suggest you might look at paragraph 98.
`
`·6· · · · A· ·98?· Thank you.
`
`·7· · · · · · I think the wording you used is pretty much
`
`·8· claim limitation 1.4.· Is that the question?· You
`
`·9· essentially asked if I find the claim limitation 1.4
`
`10· from the 356 patent, if I find this in the 281?· Is
`
`11· that the question?
`
`12· · · · Q· ·The question is that you're relying on
`
`13· Rosenberg 281 to teach that the processor generates an
`
`14· actuator signal based in part on the interaction of
`
`15· the force values in the lookup table.
`
`16· · · · A· ·All right.· So in my declaration --
`
`17· · · · Q· ·Is this yes or -- I'm sorry, you gave a
`
`18· thumbs up.· I just want to know --
`
`19· · · · A· ·I just wanted to clarify that I heard you.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·Okay.
`
`21· · · · A· ·I think I understand the question now. I
`
`22· think I'm saying this really well in the report,
`
`23· actually, here in the declaration.· "Rosenberg 281
`
`24· discloses this limitation because it teaches that the
`
`25· processor generates an actuator signal based in part
`
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`·1· on the interaction and force values in the lookup
`
`·2· table."
`
`·3· · · · · · And I think page 8 of the -- I'm sorry,
`
`·4· page 11, is the relevant page here in the 281 patent.
`
`·5· · · · · · Do you want to go into more detail?
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Well, that's fine.
`
`·7· · · · · · So the interaction is between the object
`
`·8· containing the touch-sensitive input device and the
`
`·9· graphical object; is that correct?
`
`10· · · · A· ·In one embodiment at least it is.· There are
`
`11· multiple embodiments mentioned in the disclosure.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·So just to be clear, the interaction is
`
`13· between the object containing the touch-sensitive
`
`14· input device and the graphical object?
`
`15· · · · A· ·Could you repeat that?
`
`16· · · · Q· ·The interaction is between the -- an object
`
`17· contacting the touch-sensitive input device and a
`
`18· graphical object.
`
`19· · · · A· ·Was that part of the original question?· No.
`
`20· The touch-sensitive -- that, you just added that in
`
`21· the previous question?· Okay.· So --
`
`22· · · · Q· ·I'm not sure about where we're at.
`
`23· · · · A· ·Let me zoom out a little bit.· So I think we
`
`24· need to unpack this.· There are a lot of elements in
`
`25· there that we just talked about, and maybe we
`
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`
`·1· should -- I would propose that we tackle them one at a
`
`·2· time.
`
`·3· · · · · · So the 281 patent application talks about
`
`·4· various input devices, which the inventor here calls
`
`·5· "user objects."· And one of them is a joystick,
`
`·6· another one is a stylus, I think I remember.· Mouse is
`
`·7· there as well.· And the inventor talks about providing
`
`·8· these with haptic effects.
`
`·9· · · · · · So the specific discussion you seem to be
`
`10· alluding to of interaction with graphical objects is
`
`11· discussed at a separate location on the patent
`
`12· application.
`
`13· · · · · · Should we go down in this direction and look
`
`14· more at this together?
`
`15· · · · Q· ·So I just want to make clear what the object
`
`16· is.· So the object is the joystick?
`
`17· · · · A· ·What the user object is?· I don't think that
`
`18· he ever says object just in isolation, does he?
`
`19· · · · Q· ·Well, the claim is interaction between the
`
`20· object contacting the touch-sensitive input device and
`
`21· the graphical object.· And I'm just trying to
`
`22· determine -- you're saying it's this interaction
`
`23· between the object contacting the touch-sensitive
`
`24· device.
`
`25· · · · A· ·Okay.· So I think --
`
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`·1· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection.· Vague.
`
`·2· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think what just happened is
`
`·3· you gave me language from the 356 patent.· And we're
`
`·4· talking about the 281 patent; is that what's going on?
`
`·5· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·I just wanted to know how you were reading
`
`·7· 281 on to the claim.· And I wanted to just know what
`
`·8· you're relying on for the object.
`
`·9· · · · A· ·But the claim we're talking about is the
`
`10· claim from the 356 patent.
`
`11· · · · Q· ·Right.
`
`12· · · · A· ·Okay.· I think this confused me for a
`
`13· second.· So obviously these two patent applications
`
`14· use slightly different language, so we need -- I would
`
`15· appreciate if we -- maybe we should preface everything
`
`16· with what patent we're referring to.· So when you said
`
`17· "object," for a moment I thought you were referring to
`
`18· something called object in the 281 patent.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·Let's refer to it as Rosenberg 281 because
`
`20· it's not patent.
`
`21· · · · A· ·Thank you.
`
`22· · · · · · So could you state the question one more
`
`23· time for me?
`
`24· · · · Q· ·Well, let me just ask you this way:· In
`
`25· Rosenberg 281, does the Rosenberg teach an interaction
`
`Immersion Ex 2006-26
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`
`·1· between mouse or joystick and a graphical object?
`
`·2· · · · A· ·So I think the relevant passage here is
`
`·3· page 21 of the 281 application, line 30 and following.
`
`·4· Introduced the stylus here.
`
`·5· · · · · · And then the inventor says, 'The coordinates
`
`·6· of the point of contact can be provided to the host
`
`·7· computer to control a graphical pin in the drawing
`
`·8· program or to control the cursor, as is well known to
`
`·9· those skilled in the art."
`
`10· · · · · · And so someone skilled in the art would
`
`11· understand that this, at this point, allows users to,
`
`12· you know, interact with all types of graphical objects
`
`13· in that space.
`
`14· · · · Q· ·Does Rosenberg 281 also teach about a mouse
`
`15· or joystick?
`
`16· · · · A· ·I think it does.· Yeah.
`
`17· · · · Q· ·And is that also a teaching of an
`
`18· interaction between a mouse and joystick and a
`
`19· graphical object?
`
`20· · · · A· ·You mean a mouse and a graphical object or a
`
`21· joystick and a graphical object?
`
`22· · · · Q· ·Or -- yeah.· Between a mouse or a joystick.
`
`23· Interaction between a mouse or a joystick and a
`
`24· graphical object.
`
`25· · · · A· ·So I think the -- one way the -- the
`
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`·1· interaction with graphical objects here, he talks
`
`·2· about graphical environments as well, through all
`
`·3· these different user objects or input devices.· The
`
`·4· inventor adds additional detail here for the case of
`
`·5· the mouse.
`
`·6· · · · · · But the way it's phrased makes it clear that
`
`·7· these are alternative embodiments.· And I think the
`
`·8· interactions apply are interchangeable to the
`
`·9· different situations.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·So the interaction is between the --
`
`11· · · · A· ·Either the user -- like a user object and a
`
`12· graphical user interface or a -- sorry, a user object
`
`13· and a graphical object is disclosed for several of
`
`14· these embodiments.· And it's clear that the -- or
`
`15· someone skilled in the art would understand that the
`
`16· same could be done for these objects, for these
`
`17· different user objects.
`
`18· · · · Q· ·So I understand they're interchangeable.· So
`
`19· let's just take the example of the joystick.
`
`20· · · · A· ·Uh-huh.
`
`21· · · · Q· ·So the interaction is between the joystick
`
`22· and the graphical object?
`
`23·
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