Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ____________________________
` )
` APPLE, INC., )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` ) CASE IPR2016-01372
` vs. ) Patent 8,659,571
` )
` IMMERSION CORPORATION, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` ____________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION OF PATRICK M. BAUDISCH, PH.D.
` San Diego, California
` Tuesday, August 15, 2017
` VOLUME I
`
` Reported by:
` ELAINE SMITH, RMR
` CSR No. 5421
` Job No. 2677339
` PAGES 1 - 48
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`Page 1
`
`Job No. 2677339
`
`1
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`23
`24
`25
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-1
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 INDEX
`2 WITNESS EXAMINATION
`3 PATRICK M. BAUDISCH, PH.D.
` Volume I
`
` BY MR. FLEMING 5
`
`4 5 6 7
`
`8 9
`
`10 PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`11 NUMBER PAGE
`12 Exhibit 1001 23
` Exhibit 1002 12
`13 Exhibit 1005 9
` Exhibit 1014 9
`
` (Previously marked exhibits not attached)
`
`14
`
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`3 4
`
` ____________________________
` )
`5 APPLE, INC., )
` )
`6 Petitioner, )
` ) CASE IPR2016-01372
`7 vs. ) Patent 8,659,571
` )
`8 IMMERSION CORPORATION, )
` )
`9 Patent Owner. )
` ____________________________)
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15 Deposition of PATRICK M. BAUDISCH, PH.D.,
`16 Volume I, taken on behalf of Patent Owner, at
`17 401 B Street, Suite 1700, San Diego, California,
`18 beginning at 9:01 a.m. and ending at 1:36 p.m., on
`19 Tuesday, August 15, 2017, before ELAINE SMITH, RMR,
`20 Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 5421.
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 2
`
`Page 4
`
`1 San Diego, California; Tuesday, August 15, 2017
`2 9:01 a.m.
`
`3 4
`
` MR. FLEMING: I'm Mike Fleming, with Irell &
`5 Manella, on behalf of the Patent Owner. And with me is
`6 James Milkey, also on behalf of the Patent Owner. This
`7 is IPR2016-01372 challenging U.S. Patent No. 8,659,571.
`8 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm Rob Williams, with
`9 DLA Piper, representing Petitioner Apple.
`10 THE WITNESS: My name is Patrick Baudisch. My
`11 middle name is Markus, with a K, and I'm the expert
`12 witness.
`13
`14 PATRICK M. BAUDISCH, PH.D.,
`15 having been administered an oath, was examined and
`16 testified as follows:
`17
`18 EXAMINATION
`19 BY MR. FLEMING:
`20 Q Can you state your home address for the record.
`21 A Yes. My home address is Oranienburger Str. 17,
`22 10178 Berlin, Germany.
`23 Q Doctor, do you understand that you have just
`24 taken an oath to tell the truth?
`25 A Yes.
`
`1 APPEARANCES:
`
`23
`
` For Petitioner Apple, Inc.:
`4 DLA PIPER LLP (US)
`5 BY: ROBERT C. WILLIAMS, ESQ.
`6 401 B Street, Suite 1700
`7 San Diego, California 92101-4297
`8 (619)699-2820
`9 robert.williams@dlapiper.com
`10
`11 For Patent Owner Immersion Corporation:
`12 IRELL & MANELLA LLP
`13 BY: MICHAEL R. FLEMING, ESQ.
`14 JAMES A. MILKEY, ESQ.
`15 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
`16 Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
`17 (310)277-1010
`18 mfleming@irell.com
`19 jmilkey@irell.com
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 3
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`Page 5
`
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`Job No. 2677339
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-2
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 Q You understand that this oath has the same
`2 force as if given in a court of law before a judge and
`3 jury?
`4 A Yes.
`5 Q Is there anything preventing you from giving
`6 full and accurate answers today?
`7 A No.
`8 Q Is there any reason you cannot give your best
`9 testimony today?
`10 A No.
`11 Q If you do not ask me to clarify a question,
`12 I'll assume you understood the question. Is that fair?
`13 A Yes.
`14 Q Are you represented by counsel today?
`15 A Yes, Rob Williams sitting next to me.
`16 Q You understand that you're under oath even when
`17 we take a break?
`18 A Yes.
`19 Q You understand that when you are under oath you
`20 are not to discuss this case while on break or with
`21 anyone outside of this room?
`22 A I understand.
`23 Q You understand that when you are under oath
`24 your counsel cannot coach you, act as an intermediate,
`25 interpret the questions or help you answer the
`
`1 A Yes. I just said I reread my own declarations,
`2 responses on both sides and the involved patents such as
`3 the -- including the '571 Burrough, maybe others.
`4 Q Did any of these documents refresh your
`5 recollection?
`6 A Yes.
`7 Q What documents were they that refreshed?
`8 A As I was just saying, the particular '571
`9 Burrough, multiple reports and replies, declarations on
`10 both sides.
`11 Q Did you bring any documents with you today?
`12 A I've got a binder here, but given that we've
`13 done this before, my understanding is that I will just
`14 leave it where it is.
`15 Q And that I'll provide you the documents?
`16 A If you'd be so kind.
`17 Q Have you ever been deposed before?
`18 A This would be my fifth deposition.
`19 Q And were these all IPR depositions?
`20 A The first deposition was in the context of
`21 Apple versus HTC.
`22 Q Are your opinions complete for this record?
`23 A Yeah. I'd say that my combination of the two
`24 declarations should have my complete opinions.
`25 Q Did you write your declarations yourself?
`
`Page 6
`
`Page 8
`
`1 questions?
`2 A Yes.
`3 Q Do you understand your counsel cannot instruct
`4 you not to answer the question unless it's necessary to
`5 preserve privilege?
`6 A I understand.
`7 Q You understand that unless your counsel
`8 instructs you not to answer in order to preserve
`9 privilege, you must answer the question?
`10 A I understand.
`11 Q Did you do anything to prepare for this
`12 deposition?
`13 A I did. I reread my own declarations, responses
`14 on both sides, the involved patents.
`15 Q Did you meet with your attorneys?
`16 A Absolutely.
`17 Q Did you meet with your attorneys last night?
`18 A We had dinner last night. I don't know if that
`19 counts.
`20 Q How long did you meet with your attorneys to
`21 discuss preparing for this deposition?
`22 A I'd say a little bit more than a day, like over
`23 the past weekend.
`24 Q Did you review any documents in preparation for
`25 this deposition?
`
`1 A I did, with support from counsel.
`2 Q So did you write the first draft?
`3 A There was back and forth by phone and e-mail
`4 exchange. I don't recall who wrote the first draft.
`5 Q What modifications did you make to the
`6 declaration to correct inaccuracies?
`7 A I definitely corrected inaccuracies. There
`8 was, as I said, multiple iterations back and forth.
`9 Q Doctor, I'm presenting you Exhibit 1014.
`10 A Thank you. It says, "Reply Declaration of
`11 Patrick Baudisch."
`12 Q Do you recognize this document?
`13 A Yes. I think this is my reply declaration.
`14 Q Was this the document that was submitted for
`15 the IPR for the '571 patent, IPR206 -- I'm sorry,
`16 IPR2016-01372?
`17 A Yes.
`18 Q I'd like to present you Exhibit 1005.
`19 A Thank you.
`20 Q Do you recognize this document?
`21 A Yes. It says, "Publication No.:
`22 US 2010/0156818 A1, multi touch with multi haptics."
`23 And the first inventor is Burrough.
`24 Q May we refer to this document as Burrough?
`25 A Please.
`
`Page 7
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`Page 9
`
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
`Job No. 2677339
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-3
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 Q Turning to Burrough, the haptic profile H(d)
`2 depends on the distance between the user's fingers;
`3 correct?
`4 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection to form.
`5 THE WITNESS: Let me maybe try to eliminate
`6 some potential confusion here which results in the fact
`7 that the inventor uses the term "H(d)" in multiple
`8 contexts with slightly different meanings. On the one
`9 hand, he uses the term to refer to the haptic response.
`10 On the other hand, he uses it to refer to the haptic
`11 profile. And if that's okay, I will just read from my
`12 declaration on that, my response.
`13 So I think I'm saying it really precisely here.
`14 It says, "Burrough discloses a dynamic interaction
`15 parameter, haptic response H(d), whose magnitude varies
`16 as a function of the distance between the user's fingers
`17 during the course of a zoom gesture. Patent Owner
`18 argues that haptic response H(d) is 'neither dynamic nor
`19 generated,' because the function represented by H(d) is
`20 stored in memory. Patent Owner's argument, however,
`21 confuses the function that defines H(d), (also referred
`22 to as the 'haptic profile'), with the output of that
`23 function (the 'haptic response'), which changes
`24 dynamically depending on the gesture signals it relies
`25 upon."
`
`1 I'm just trying to clarify what the inventor, in my
`2 opinion, tries to communicate so that we don't
`3 miscommunicate with each other.
`4 BY MR. FLEMING:
`5 Q So, in your mind, what does H profile H(d)
`6 mean?
`7 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`8 BY MR. FLEMING:
`9 Q To be clear, what is your definition of haptic
`10 profile H(d), so we can refer to it consistently?
`11 A Do you mind if I look at my initial declaration
`12 for that?
`13 Q Doctor, I'm presenting you Exhibit 1002.
`14 A Thank you.
`15 Q Do you recognize this document?
`16 A It says, "Declaration of Dr. Patrick Baudisch"
`17 on it.
`18 Q Is this is your first declaration that was
`19 submitted in the '571 IPR?
`20 A I think so.
`21 Q For the record, I would like to get the
`22 nomenclature clear. When I refer to IPR '571, I'm
`23 referring to IPR2016-01372. Is that okay with you,
`24 Doctor?
`25 A Yes.
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 12
`
`1 So to go back to your question, if you had said
`2 the haptic response H(d) changes dynamically depending
`3 on the gesture signal, I would agree to that. So I
`4 don't know how we're going to do this today, but we
`5 somehow need to find a language between the two of us
`6 how we distinguish the two H(d)s here just to avoid
`7 misunderstandings.
`8 BY MR. FLEMING:
`9 Q So it's your opinion Burrough provides two
`10 different H(d)?
`11 A I don't think he provides two different H(d)s.
`12 I can understand why he uses the same terminology twice.
`13 In one case, he refers to the haptic profile, which is
`14 data stored in memory, and, in the other case, he refers
`15 to when that haptic profile is being applied. I think
`16 that's very common in language, we say things like, you
`17 know, F of X to refer to a function, but then we also
`18 say F of 5 and not refer to the function. It may be
`19 called, in other cases, I mean, the number coming out of
`20 this. So we just have to be very clear so we don't run
`21 into the trap of miscommunication here.
`22 Q So can you define haptic profile H(d) since you
`23 are coining a term?
`24 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`25 THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm coining a term.
`Page 11
`
`1 Q To be sure that we're not confusing things, I'm
`2 asking you what is your definition of haptic profile
`3 H(d) so that we can refer to it consistently in the
`4 deposition.
`5 A Absolutely. I don't think I need to define
`6 very much here. I think we can just turn to Burrough
`7 and learn about what he means by haptic profile. So in
`8 one passage, he mentions that "haptic profiles for each
`9 of the fingers relating the distance d between the two
`10 fingers to the corresponding haptic response H(d)
`11 experienced at each finger."
`12 So, apparently, a haptic profile is a function
`13 that accepts parameters, in this case, the distance, and
`14 produces the haptic response as output.
`15 Q Can you tell me where you were reading from
`16 Burrough.
`17 A It's paragraph 82 from Burrough.
`18 Q So then the haptic profile H(d) depends on the
`19 distance between the user's fingers; correct?
`20 A That's not exactly what I said. The result
`21 produced by applying the haptic profile, also known as
`22 the haptic response, that may depend, for example, on
`23 the distance between the user's fingers.
`24 Q So the haptic profile H(d) is stored in memory?
`25 A Do you mind showing me the Patent Owner's
`Page 13
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
`Job No. 2677339
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-4
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 response?
`2 Q Before I show you the response, I don't
`3 understand why you need to see our response. You're the
`4 expert. Can you not tell me where in Burrough -- I'm
`5 just simply asking your opinion. The haptic profile
`6 H(d), is it stored in memory?
`7 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`8 BY MR. FLEMING:
`9 Q According to Burrough.
`10 A I can totally give you that answer, but the
`11 fastest answer, I think, is through the Patent Owner's
`12 response, because I'm looking at my own response
`13 declaration, and there's -- and that suggests that the
`14 Patent Owner's response tells me exactly what paragraph
`15 that's in. It just speeds things up. I hope that's in
`16 everyone's interest.
`17 MR. MILKEY: I'm actually not sure that -- for
`18 some reason, I'm not sure we've included it in here.
`19 MR. FLEMING: Can we take a break?
`20 THE WITNESS: Happy to.
`21 (Recess.)
`22 BY MR. FLEMING:
`23 Q Doctor, I'm going to present to you Paper
`24 No. 14.
`25 A Thank you so much.
`
`1 happening in the sense that additional factors seem to
`2 be applied. You want the detail on that?
`3 Q Yes, please. I'm trying to understand what
`4 your definition of haptic response H(d) is.
`5 A I thought we were talking about the haptic
`6 profile right now.
`7 Q You said the haptic profile is stored in
`8 memory; correct?
`9 A Uh-huh.
`10 Q And I'm asking is the haptic response H(d) what
`11 is read out of that memory that stores the haptic
`12 profile H(d)?
`13 A I see what you mean. What I'm trying to say is
`14 that the act of producing the haptic response may be a
`15 little bit more than just reading memory.
`16 Q And what more is it?
`17 A So --
`18 Q So the haptic response is not solely dependent
`19 on the haptic profile? Is that what you're saying?
`20 A Well, the interesting part here, I think, is
`21 that the haptic profile can change during the course of
`22 the zoom gesture. So the inventor says in paragraph 82,
`23 "as the zoom factor increases, the haptic profile H(d)
`24 can change by, for example, the slope becoming more
`25 steep as the resolution of the underlying map
`
`Page 14
`
`Page 16
`
`1 MR. WILLIAMS: So, just for the record, as a
`2 courtesy, we went ahead and printed out a copy of the
`3 exhibit that opposing counsel requested. I don't see
`4 any reason -- and we did so expeditiously. I don't see
`5 any reason this deposition will go seven hours, but to
`6 the extent it does get close to that, the 15 minutes or
`7 so that we spent preparing the document for counsel will
`8 count against the seven-hour time limit.
`9 BY MR. FLEMING:
`10 Q For clarification, what is the document?
`11 A Oh, yes. It says, "Immersion Corporation's
`12 Patent Owner Response." And thanks for providing it.
`13 MR. WILLIAMS: Is there a question?
`14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The question is if this is
`15 stored in memory.
`16 BY MR. FLEMING:
`17 Q Is the haptic profile H(d) stored in memory?
`18 A So the Burrough patent at paragraph 51 says,
`19 "By dynamic it is meant that although specific haptic
`20 profiles H stored in haptic profile data base 134..."
`21 So it's stored in the database. I guess this suggests
`22 that this would be in memory.
`23 Q And so then the haptic response H(d) is what is
`24 read out of that memory?
`25 A Well, in part. It seems like a bit more is
`
`1 increases." I can think of a variety of ways this could
`2 be implemented. But it seems to suggest that a little
`3 bit more is happening around haptic profiles than just
`4 reading memory locations.
`5 Q So is the haptic response H(d) dependent on the
`6 distance between the user's fingers?
`7 A Well, in one particular embodiment, that seems
`8 to be the case.
`9 Q Does the distance include both magnitude and
`10 direction?
`11 A Well, the haptic -- sorry. While the distance
`12 itself is a scalar, the act of producing the distance
`13 may or may not involve magnitudes and directions
`14 depending on what type of gesture signal that was
`15 produced. If it's produced from position data, it may,
`16 for example, not. If it happens to be produced from
`17 what the inventor calls delta T by delta X and delta T
`18 by delta Y in paragraph 51, the production of the haptic
`19 response may have gone through some elements that
`20 include magnitude and direction along the way. But I
`21 agree, at the end, the distance itself is a scalar.
`22 Q So then distance between two fingers cannot be
`23 a vector signal?
`24 A I think it depends on the context, since you're
`25 asking that question. Certainly, it's possible to
`
`Page 15
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`Page 17
`
`5 (Pages 14 - 17)
`Job No. 2677339
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-5
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 represent the spacial relationship between two fingers
`2 as a vector. But if you specifically refer to distance,
`3 which I think is generally understood to be scalar, so
`4 if you choose the wording "distance," I would be
`5 compelled to think of the scalar.
`6 Q So distance between two fingers cannot be a
`7 vector signal?
`8 A As I said, there certainly are ways of
`9 expressing the spacial relationship between the fingers
`10 using the vector. If you want to use the term
`11 "distance," I would think that that distance would be
`12 scalar.
`13 Q So, in your opinion, does signal Tinfo include
`14 distance between fingers?
`15 A It appears like the inventor does not really
`16 say one way or the other. But if I look at
`17 paragraph 46, I get some hints of where things may be
`18 here. So we need to understand that events are
`19 processed -- touch events are processed as follows:
`20 Touch events come in as gesture signals S, and then they
`21 get repackaged by processor 106 into Tinfo. And we
`22 learn from paragraph 46 that a couple of things can
`23 happen at this step. The inventor mentions examples
`24 such as location, direction, speed, acceleration at this
`25 point could be made available.
`
`Page 18
`
`1 And then things are passed forward to the
`2 microcontroller. And the microcontroller then queries
`3 the haptic, I guess, profile database. Given that
`4 different fingers can be provided with different haptic
`5 effects, I tend to think that a lot of the original
`6 touch information is preserved pretty far along that
`7 pipeline; otherwise, it would be hard to produce these
`8 at a later step. However, the exact moment at which
`9 distance is computed, I don't quite see that being
`10 described here. So I guess this could already take
`11 place early and stored in Tinfo. It could also be
`12 computed later at the microcontroller.
`13 The key is that the process treats this as --
`14 the multitouch gesture as, essentially, multiple simple
`15 gestures. So I would assume that a lot of the original
`16 touch information is preserved pretty far along the
`17 pipeline. But that doesn't preclude it from -- that
`18 doesn't prevent it from, you know, computing distances
`19 as early as the processor.
`20 We also need to consider that the inventor says
`21 that microcontroller and processor could in some
`22 embodiments be just a single thing, so that would kind
`23 of eliminate the question, I guess.
`24 Q So a single Tinfo signal cannot show whether
`25 the distance between the fingers is increasing or
`
`1 decreasing?
`2 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`3 THE WITNESS: My sense is this depends on the
`4 specific embodiment. If distance information is
`5 computed as early as the processor, then I think Tinfo
`6 would contain that information. If distance information
`7 were to be computed at a later step, at the
`8 microcontroller, then I think that computation would
`9 happen or that determining of increasing or decreasing
`10 distances would have to happen a little later.
`11 BY MR. FLEMING:
`12 Q So does S1 signal always include direction
`13 information?
`14 A In order to answer your question, I'm looking
`15 at paragraph 46 of Burrough. It says, "In response to
`16 the pressure applied by the user during touch event T,
`17 sensing device 124 generates touch signal S1 (and any
`18 other signal consistent with a multi-touch event).
`19 Touch signal S1 can be monitored by an electronic
`20 interface (not shown) in passed to processor 106."
`21 So I'm not sure what happens in the electronic
`22 interface which is not shown. I think, in the simplest
`23 case, the gesture signal or touch signal S1 may just
`24 contain position or pressure, probably both. Depending
`25 on how the system is designed, I could envision that the
`Page 20
`
`1 electronic interface maybe processes the sequence of
`2 those and may add direction information. We also don't
`3 learn a lot about the actual sensor. So in some very
`4 unusual embodiments, maybe the sensor itself might be
`5 capable of producing such information, and if that were
`6 the case, then I would assume that to be also packaged
`7 into S1.
`8 Q So does S1 always include speed information?
`9 A Paragraph 46 doesn't really say what exactly is
`10 contained in S, so with the same reasoning, you could
`11 imagine embodiments that produce that. I would assume,
`12 in the default case, in most embodiments, that's
`13 probably not the case.
`14 Q So does S1 always include acceleration
`15 information?
`16 A With the same reasoning, I could imagine some
`17 embodiments that do, but in most cases, I would assume
`18 S1 to not contain acceleration.
`19 Q In the Burrough zoom embodiment, which of S1,
`20 S2 or Tinfo is the first gesture signal?
`21 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`22 THE WITNESS: When you say, "S2," you're
`23 referring to which paragraph?
`24 BY MR. FLEMING:
`25 Q Your declaration.
`
`Page 19
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`Page 21
`
`6 (Pages 18 - 21)
`Job No. 2677339
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-6
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 A My declaration?
`2 Q You said S1 and S2 were gesture signals at one
`3 point. Now you're saying -- we're not clear what you're
`4 saying. So I'm asking you is it S1, S2 or Tinfo is your
`5 first gesture signal?
`6 A I just want to make sure I give you a very good
`7 answer by knowing what passage you're referring to when
`8 you say S2.
`9 Q In your -- paragraph 16 of your reply
`10 declaration.
`11 A I think in 15 I'm saying -- which? S1, S2?
`12 Are those the ones?
`13 Q I'm referring to paragraph 16, where you're
`14 saying signals S1, S2, S3, and S4.
`15 A Which builds on the previous paragraph, which I
`16 think points out that the terms S1 and S2 originate from
`17 Patent Owner's expert Visell.
`18 Q So then just clarify to me what is it that
`19 you're referring to as the first gesture signal in
`20 Burrough.
`21 A Do you still want an answer to your previous
`22 question about the --
`23 Q I just want to know what your position is.
`24 What signal in Burrough are you relying on as the first
`25 gesture signal?
`
`1 gesture signal. But then, in the following paragraph,
`2 I'm also referring to Burrough further disclosing that a
`3 touch event T is initiated each time an object such as a
`4 finger is placed on upper surface. I don't see it right
`5 here, but, essentially, what happens is that the --
`6 while the gesture is performed, additional gesture
`7 signals will be produced. But your question seemed to
`8 go further than that. I think you were asking about the
`9 relationship between S and T. Is that -- Tinfo?
`10 Q Yes. Are you relying on -- if you look at
`11 Figure 1B, which one of these signals are you saying is
`12 the gesture signal? S1 or Tinfo?
`13 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`14 THE WITNESS: I think someone skilled in the
`15 art would understand that, from the perspective of
`16 Claim 1, S and Tinfo both fulfill the purpose of gesture
`17 signal, given that they are in some embodiments really
`18 just repackaged versions of each other.
`19 BY MR. FLEMING:
`20 Q So then, if they're just a repackage of each
`21 other, then S1 is the same as Tinfo?
`22 A I said, "in some embodiments." Tinfo can be
`23 more. More processing can happen along the way.
`24 Q So then S1 would be the first gesture signal in
`25 that case?
`
`Page 22
`
`Page 24
`
`1 A Could you be more specific about what you mean
`2 with first gesture signal? I don't --
`3 Q That's the claim language.
`4 A Oh, I see what you mean.
`5 Q Claim 1. So, Doctor, maybe it would be best
`6 that I present you Exhibit 1001. And if we turn to --
`7 can you identify this document, please.
`8 A Yes. It says U.S. Patent 8,659,571. And I
`9 would assume that we're going to refer to this as the
`10 '571.
`11 Q And if you look to column 16, Claim 1 --
`12 A Uh-huh.
`13 Q -- I'm asking what signals are you -- in
`14 Burrough correspond to the first gesture signal? Can
`15 you just answer the question?
`16 A I will. Okay.
`17 Q We can take a break after you answer the
`18 question.
`19 A Thank you. So in my original declaration, I'm
`20 saying in paragraph 59, "For example, Burrough discloses
`21 a 'zoom gesture method 1100' 'where the presence of at
`22 least a first finger and a second finger are detected on
`23 a touch sensitive surface of the surface 126 at about
`24 the same time.'" So that would be -- the first finger
`25 of these two would be one way of understanding the first
`Page 23
`
`1 A And so would Tinfo be.
`2 Q So you're relying on both signals, two signals
`3 for the same claim limitation?
`4 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection to form.
`5 THE WITNESS: I don't think of them as two
`6 signals. I think they are two representations of the
`7 same gesture signal.
`8 BY MR. FLEMING:
`9 Q So then if they're the same representation,
`10 then S1 could be the gesture signal?
`11 A S1 is definitely one representation of a form
`12 of gesture signal.
`13 MR. FLEMING: Okay. I think we can take a
`14 break so you can talk to your family.
`15 THE WITNESS: Thank you so much.
`16 (Recess.)
`17 BY MR. FLEMING:
`18 Q The board's construction of "gesture signal" is
`19 a signal indicating movement of the body that conveys
`20 meaning or user intent; correct?
`21 A A signal indicating movement of the body that
`22 conveys meaning or user intent, yes.
`23 Q So the words "that convey meaning or user
`24 intent," does that constitute a clause?
`25 A I'd say so.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-336-4000
`
`Page 25
`
`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
`Job No. 2677339
`
`Immersion Ex 2012-7
`Apple v Immersion
`IPR2016-01372
`
`

`

`Patrick M. Baudisch , Ph.D. - August 15, 2017
`
`1 Q Does that clause modify "body" or "movement"?
`2 A I have to admit I haven't thought about this
`3 all that deeply because the board actually gave a pretty
`4 good definition early on. And let me quote. They said,
`5 "A gesture is any movement of the body that conveys
`6 meaning or user intent." And that was very clear to me.
`7 And assuming that we're going to talk about gesture
`8 signal in a second, it was then pretty clear to me
`9 afterwards that gesture signal indicating such a
`10 movement, that would have to be understood too.
`11 Q I'm just asking an English grammar question.
`12 The board's exact quote is indicating -- "a signal
`13 indicating movement of the body that conveys meaning or
`14 user intent." And the question is just simply English
`15 grammar. The phrase "that conveys meaning or user
`16 intent," does it modify "body" or does it modify
`17 "movement"?
`18 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`19 THE WITNESS: What I was trying to say is that
`20 I have not given this particular grammar question much
`21 thought so far because it hasn't come up. This
`22 ambiguity has not presented itself to me in the process
`23 of trying to understand the claim construction. So --
`24 BY MR. FLEMING:
`25 Q So --
`
`Page 26
`
`1 A Please.
`2 Q In your opinion, then, a signal -- to
`3 constitute a gesture signal in the context of the '571
`4 patent, the signal does not need to convey meaning or
`5 intent; correct?
`6 A I think the board put it very clearly by saying
`7 a gesture signal is simply a signal indicating a
`8 gesture. So the meaning or intent would be found in the
`9 gesture. The gesture signal would simply indicate that.
`10 Q So then you're saying that a gesture signal
`11 does -- in the context of the '571 patent, the gesture
`12 signal does need to convey meaning or intent?
`13 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`14 THE WITNESS: In the context of the '571
`15 patent, a gesture signal simply has to indicate a
`16 gesture.
`17 BY MR. FLEMING:
`18 Q That's circular reasoning, is it not, a gesture
`19 signal has to convey a gesture signal?
`20 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`21 THE WITNESS: I don't think that's circular
`22 because -- it would be circular if gesture would then be
`23 defined based on -- if gesture signal were defined based
`24 on gesture signal and gesture signal were defined based
`25 on gesture, but that's not the case. It's not circular.
`
`Page 27
`
`1 BY MR. FLEMING:
`2 Q So a gesture signal does not have to contain
`3 information to convey meaning or user intent, in your
`4 opinion?
`5 A There seem to be two elements to what you just
`6 said, so let me unpack this for you. So a gesture
`7 signal will typically contain information or data which
`8 is interpreted later in the pipeline, so we could call
`9 this information. The second half of your question,
`10 does it have to convey meaning or user intent, that
`11 doesn't seem to be required. The meaning or user intent
`12 would come indirectly by the gesture signal indicating
`13 the gesture.
`14 Q So then it's your opinion that a signal may not
`15 indicate a movement of the body to be a gesture signal?
`16 MR. WILLIAMS: Objection. Form.
`17 THE WITNESS: So let me again try to unpack
`18 this. Any movement of the body that conveys meaning or
`19 user intent, that would be a gesture.