·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`·4· ·APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · · · :
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`·5· · · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · :
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`·6· · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · ·:· ·Case IPR2016-01372
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`·7· ·IMMERSION CORPORATION,· · · · :· ·Patent 8,659,571
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`·8· · · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · :
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`·9· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`12· · · · · Deposition of DR. PATRICK M. BAUDISCH
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Reston, Virginia
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`14· · · · · · · · · Thursday, May 18, 2017
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · 9:19 a.m.
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`23· Job No.:· 203541
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`24· Pages:· 1 - 57
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`25· Reported By:· Christina S. Hotsko, RPR
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`·4· ·APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · · · :
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`·5· · · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · :
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`·6· · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · ·:· ·Case IPR2016-01372
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`·7· ·IMMERSION CORPORATION,· · · · :· ·Patent 8,659,571
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`·8· · · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · :
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`·9· - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`12· · · · · Deposition of DR. PATRICK M. BAUDISCH
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Reston, Virginia
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`14· · · · · · · · · Thursday, May 18, 2017
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · 9:19 a.m.
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`23· Job No.:· 203541
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`24· Pages:· 1 - 57
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`25· Reported By:· Christina S. Hotsko, RPR
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`·1· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2
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`·3· On Behalf of Petitioner:
`· · NICHOLAS PANNO, ESQUIRE
`·4· DLA Piper, LLP
`· · One Fountain Square
`·5· 11911 Freedom Drive, Suite 300
`· · Reston, Virginia 20190-5602
`·6· (703) 773-4157
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`·7· ROBERT C. WILLIAMS, ESQUIRE
`· · DLA Piper, LLP
`·8· 401 B Street, Suite 1700
`· · San Diego, California 92101-4297
`·9· (619) 699-2820
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`10· BRIAN K. ERICKSON, ESQUIRE (Via Telephone)
`· · DLA Piper, LLP
`11· 401 Congress Avenue, Suite 2500
`· · Austin, Texas 78701-3799
`12· (512) 457-7059
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`13
`· · On Behalf of Patent Owner:
`14· MICHAEL R. FLEMING, ESQUIRE
`· · JAMES A. MILKEY, ESQUIRE
`15· Irell & Manella, LLP
`· · 1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
`16· Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
`· · (310) 277-1010
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·C O N T E N T S
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`·2· EXAMINATION BY:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· · · ·Counsel for Patent Owner· · · · · · · · · · ·04
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`·4· · · ·Counsel for Petitioner· · · · · · · · · · · ·55
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`10· · · · · · (Exhibits attached to transcript)
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`11· PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS:· · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`12· 1002· Baudisch Declaration· · · · · · · · · · · · 07
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`13· 1005· Burrough Patent Application· · · · · · · · ·11
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· Whereupon,
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`·3· · · · · · · · ·DR. PATRICK M. BAUDISCH,
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`·4· being first duly sworn or affirmed to testify to the
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`·5· truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
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`·6· examined and testified as follows:
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`·7· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT OWNER
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`·8· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`·9· · · · Q· ·I'm Mike Fleming.· I'm with Irell & Manella.
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`10· And we represent the patent owner.
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`11· · · · · · MR. MILKEY:· This is Jim Milkey with Irell &
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`12· Manella also on behalf of the patent owner.
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`13· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· And I'm Nick Panno with
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`14· DLA Piper.· I'm representing petitioner.· And also
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`15· here today is Rob Williams.
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`16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· My name is Patrick Baudisch.
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`17· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`18· · · · Q· ·Can you state your home address, too?
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`19· · · · A· ·My home address is Oranienburger Straße 17
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`20· in 10178, Berlin, Germany.
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`21· · · · Q· ·You understand you have taken an oath to
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`22· tell the truth?
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`23· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`24· · · · Q· ·You understand that this oath is the same
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`25· force and effect as if given in a court of law before
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`·1· a judge and jury?
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`·2· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`·3· · · · Q· ·Is there anything preventing you from giving
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`·4· full and accurate answers today?
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`·5· · · · A· ·No.
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`·6· · · · Q· ·Is there any reason you cannot give your
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`·7· best testimony today?
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`·8· · · · A· ·No.
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`·9· · · · Q· ·If you do not ask me to clarify a question,
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`10· I will assume you understood the question; is that
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`11· fair?
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`12· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`13· · · · Q· ·Are you represented by counsel today?
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`14· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`15· · · · Q· ·Can you identify the counsel?
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`16· · · · A· ·Counsel here from DLA Piper.· And --
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`17· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Nick Panno.
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`18· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`19· · · · Q· ·You understand that you're under oath even
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`20· when we take a break?
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`21· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`22· · · · Q· ·You understand when you are under oath, you
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`23· are not to discuss the case while on break or with
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`24· anyone outside of this room?
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`25· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`·1· · · · Q· ·You understand that when you are under oath,
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`·2· your counsel cannot coach you, act as an immediate,
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`·3· interpret the questions, or help you answer the
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`·4· questions?
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`·5· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`·6· · · · Q· ·You understand your counsel cannot instruct
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`·7· you not to answer the questions unless it is necessary
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`·8· to preserve privilege?
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`·9· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`10· · · · Q· ·You understand that unless your counsel
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`11· instructs you not to answer in order to preserve
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`12· privilege, you must answer the question.
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`13· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`14· · · · Q· ·Did you do anything to prepare for this
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`15· deposition?
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`16· · · · A· ·Yes.· I re-read my own report -- sorry, my
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`17· own declaration, and as well as the relevant patents
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`18· and applications.· And then I also looked at the
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`19· institution decision, the preliminary institution
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`20· decision, and I looked at the declaration of the
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`21· expert on patent owner's side.
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`22· · · · Q· ·Were all these documents that you were
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`23· reviewing part of the record for the IPR?
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`24· · · · A· ·Oh, what you're asking is if I reviewed
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`25· anything outside what's already listed in the -- I
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`·1· guess in addition I might have looked things up on the
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`·2· internet, on -- that was yesterday.· That was for the
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`·3· case yesterday, I guess.
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`·4· · · · · · Nothing comes to mind right now.
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`·5· · · · Q· ·Have you ever been deposed before?
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`·6· · · · A· ·Including yesterday, that would be my third
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`·7· deposition today.
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`·8· · · · Q· ·Or testified in a court case?
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`·9· · · · A· ·I testified a couple of years ago in court
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`10· for Apple against HTC.
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`11· · · · Q· ·Were there any other matters that you've
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`12· been an expert witness on?
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`13· · · · A· ·Only this case, Apple versus HTC.
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`14· · · · Q· ·I want to present you a document, the
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`15· doctor's declaration.· I'm giving you Exhibit 1002.
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`16· It's already part of the record of the IPR.
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`17· · · · · · (Previously marked Exhibit 1002 marked for
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`18· identification and attached to the transcript.)
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`19· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`20· · · · Q· ·Can you tell me what this document is?
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`21· · · · A· ·It says declaration of Dr. Patrick Baudisch.
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`22· · · · Q· ·Is this your declaration?
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`23· · · · A· ·I think so.
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`24· · · · Q· ·Would you just look at it and make sure it's
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`25· complete and that I've given you everything that
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`·1· you've filed?
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`·2· · · · A· ·Sure looks like it.
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`·3· · · · Q· ·What claim constructions did you apply in
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`·4· your declaration?
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`·5· · · · A· ·So as I'm discussing in my report on pages
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`·6· 14, 15, and 16, several terms were construed,
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`·7· including gesture signal, dynamic interaction
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`·8· parameter, vector signal, onscreen signal, generating
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`·9· a dynamic interaction parameter using a physical
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`10· model, generating interaction parameter using
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`11· animation and module.
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`12· · · · Q· ·And for your opinion, you used these claim
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`13· constructions to arrive at your opinion?
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`14· · · · A· ·That is correct.· And I've since also
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`15· reviewed the institution decision and the report of
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`16· the patent owner's expert; and in part, I formed an
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`17· opinion about those constructions as well.
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`18· · · · Q· ·Is your opinion complete?
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`19· · · · A· ·My opinion expressed in the declaration
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`20· represents my opinion at the time.· My opinion has not
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`21· changed since, but the -- but there's more
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`22· documentation now that I've had access to, so there
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`23· would probably be additional things that would need to
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`24· be expressed.
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`25· · · · Q· ·What additional things do you need to
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`·1· express?
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`·2· · · · A· ·I don't think I need to express anything
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`·3· right now, but the -- certainly possibility to discuss
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`·4· the institution decision and things like that.
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`·5· · · · Q· ·What sources of information are you relying
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`·6· on for your declaration?
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`·7· · · · A· ·So the sources I'm relying on are in the
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`·8· exhibit list, which is the second page after the
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`·9· cover, the page following the table of contents, I
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`10· guess, labeled exhibit list.
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`11· · · · · · If you'd like me to read from that?
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`12· · · · Q· ·No, I think that makes it clear that those
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`13· are the documents that you relied on for your
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`14· declaration.
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`15· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`16· · · · Q· ·Are there any other documents that are not
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`17· listed there that you relied on?
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`18· · · · A· ·No.
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`19· · · · Q· ·Did you write your declaration yourself?
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`20· · · · A· ·I did.· With support from counsel, as
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`21· discussed yesterday.
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`22· · · · Q· ·So who helped you?
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`23· · · · A· ·Counsel -- you mean specifically?· So I
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`24· worked with Rob Williams, who's also present here.
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`25· · · · Q· ·So did you write the first draft?
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`·1· · · · A· ·I don't recall in what order things went.
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`·2· There were a sequence of phone calls.· I probably did,
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`·3· but I don't recall the order.
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`·4· · · · Q· ·Did your counsel write part of the
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`·5· declaration?
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`·6· · · · A· ·Yes.· For example, the legalese in the
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`·7· beginning of the declaration.
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`·8· · · · Q· ·How about part of the -- the rest of the
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`·9· document?· Was there anything that they wrote there?
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`10· · · · A· ·The rest of the document was the result of
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`11· some back and forth.· There certainly was some wording
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`12· that came from all sides.
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`13· · · · Q· ·Did you make any kind of alterations to the
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`14· declaration for inaccuracies for when they provided
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`15· you language for the declaration?
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`16· · · · A· ·I think I did.· Yeah.
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`17· · · · Q· ·Were there meetings that you had to prepare
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`18· for your declaration?
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`19· · · · A· ·Yes.
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`20· · · · Q· ·Who did you talk with when you were in
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`21· meetings?
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`22· · · · A· ·I talked primarily to Rob Williams.· And
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`23· given that this is compounded here with the deposition
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`24· yesterday, I also talked to Brian Erickson.
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`25· · · · Q· ·And how long were these meetings?
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`·1· · · · A· ·The combined meeting for both depositions
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`·2· together, I think took something like two days.
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`·3· · · · Q· ·Do you believe that you consulted all the
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`·4· relevant sources of information that may be material
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`·5· to the opinions you presented in your declaration?
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`·6· · · · A· ·I think so.
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`·7· · · · Q· ·I'd like to present you another document.
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`·8· It's Exhibit 1005 that has been filed with the IPR.
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`·9· · · · · · (Previously marked Exhibit 1005 marked for
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`10· identification and attached to the transcript.)
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`11· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`12· · · · Q· ·Doctor, can you tell me what that -- do you
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`13· recognize this document?
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`14· · · · A· ·Yes, I do recognize it.· This is
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`15· Exhibit 1005, which is the United States patent
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`16· application to Burrough.· And I guess the publication
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`17· number.· U.S. 2010/0156818A1.
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`18· · · · Q· ·Can we just simply refer to this document
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`19· through this deposition as Burrough?
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`20· · · · A· ·Yes, please.
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`21· · · · Q· ·Have you read the entire reference?
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`22· · · · A· ·Yes, I have.
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`23· · · · Q· ·When was the first time you became aware of
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`24· this reference?
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`25· · · · A· ·It must have been a year ago when the --
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`·1· when I was recruited to work on the case.
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`·2· · · · Q· ·Did counsel provide you the reference?
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`·3· · · · A· ·That's possible.
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`·4· · · · Q· ·So if you would, can we turn to paragraph 60
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`·5· of your declaration?
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`·6· · · · · · There in paragraph 60 of your declaration
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`·7· you cite to paragraph 46 of Burrough.· And I believe
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`·8· you're providing a quote, "sensing device 124
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`·9· generates touch signal S1."
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`10· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`11· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`12· · · · Q· ·Is that correct?
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`13· · · · A· ·Are we looking at the same page right now?
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`14· · · · Q· ·Paragraph 60?
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`15· · · · A· ·Oh, paragraph 60?· I was looking at page 60.
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`16· · · · Q· ·Since it's not very long, for the record,
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`17· can you read in paragraph 60?
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`18· · · · A· ·So paragraph 60 from the declaration reads,
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`19· "Burrough further discloses that the touch event T is
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`20· initiated each time an object such as a user's finger
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`21· is placed on upper surface 126 over or in close
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`22· proximity to sensing region 128.
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`23· · · · · · "In response to the pressure applied to the
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`24· user" -- I'm sorry, "In response to the pressure
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`25· applied by the user during touch event T, sensing
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`·1· device 124 generates touch signal S1 (and any other
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`·2· signal consistent with a multi-touch event)."· Gesture
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`·3· signal.
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`·4· · · · Q· ·So let's look at paragraph 66 of Burrough.
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`·5· It's not very long.· Would you mind reading into the
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`·6· record paragraph 46?
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`·7· · · · A· ·Sure.· So I'm reading paragraph 46 from
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`·8· Burrough.· "In the simplest case, a touch event T is
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`·9· initiated each time an object such as a user's finger
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`10· is placed on upper surface 126 over or in close
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`11· proximity to sensing region 128.· Pressure generated
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`12· by touch event T is transmitted through protective
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`13· layer 120 at sensing region 128 to sensing device 124.
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`14· · · · · · "In response to the pressure applied by the
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`15· user during touch event T, sensing device 124
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`16· generates touch signal S1 and any other signal
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`17· consistent with a multi-touch event.· Touch signal S1
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`18· can be monitored by an electronic interface (not
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`19· shown) and passed to processor 106.· Processor 106, in
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`20· turn, that can convert the number, combination, and
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`21· frequency of the signal(s) S into touch information
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`22· Tinfo that can include location direction, speed, and
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`23· acceleration information of touch event T.· Processor
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`24· 106 can then pass touch information Tinfo to
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`25· micro-controller 132.
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`·1· · · · · · "Although micro-controller 132 is shown as a
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`·2· component separate from processor 106, it is
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`·3· contemplated that functions carried out by
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`·4· micro-controller 132 can, in fact, be performed by
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`·5· processor 106."
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`·6· · · · Q· ·So in paragraph 60 of your declaration, is
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`·7· it your contention that these signals originate from
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`·8· the sensing device 124 as gesture signals?
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`·9· · · · A· ·So to answer your question, I'm applying my
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`10· claim construction described on page 14 of my report
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`11· that says, "The claim term 'gesture signal' should
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`12· encompass a signal generated in response to user
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`13· interaction with the user interface device."
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`14· · · · · · So the sensing device described here I think
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`15· should qualify as one possible version of such a user
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`16· interface device.
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`17· · · · · · And the signal is generated in response of
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`18· it.· So it seems like a touch, the second touch, and
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`19· then position data generated afterwards should
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`20· probably all be considered gesture signals.
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`21· · · · Q· ·So from the sensing device 124, I believe
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`22· that is S1; is that not right?
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`23· · · · A· ·S1 certainly seems to be one representation
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`24· of the gesture signal.· But it looks like the
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`25· processor is packaging this up in a digital
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`·1· representation afterwards, and I would certainly apply
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`·2· the term gesture signal to that packaging as well.
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`·3· · · · Q· ·So in your declaration, what do you identify
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`·4· what signal is the gesture signal?
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`·5· · · · A· ·So given that my role here is to apply the
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`·6· broadest reasonable interpretation, I would say that
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`·7· the -- both the kind of hardware signal itself and the
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`·8· package digital versions both are different stages of
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`·9· the gesture signal.· It certainly is the same signal
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`10· but at different moments in time, if you will.
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`11· · · · Q· ·So are you changing your declaration on
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`12· paragraph 62?
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`13· · · · A· ·I think what I just said is consistent with
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`14· my paragraph 62.
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`15· · · · Q· ·So I believe that what I read is -- if you
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`16· could read the second sentence and the third sentence
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`17· of 62, please.
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`18· · · · A· ·"Burrough further discloses that sensing
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`19· device 124 generates signals representing each touch
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`20· on the touchscreen.· Thus, a person of skill in the
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`21· art would understand that the sensing device generates
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`22· a first gesture signal representing one of the two
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`23· fingers on the touchscreen, the second signal gesture
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`24· representing the other finger on the touchscreen."
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`25· · · · Q· ·Doctor, isn't the sensing device 124 in
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`·1· Burroughs?
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`·2· · · · A· ·I think we're talking about device 124 in
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`·3· Burroughs.
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`·4· · · · Q· ·And paragraph 62, you're clearly stating
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`·5· that the signals generated from sensing device 124
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`·6· generate the first and second gesture signals; is that
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`·7· correct?
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`·8· · · · A· ·That's what I say.
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`·9· · · · Q· ·So the gesture signals then are created by
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`10· sensing device 124, correct, in your opinion?
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`11· · · · A· ·I think that's consistent with what I just
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`12· said.· The sensing device triggers the creation, which
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`13· is then further packaged into digital representation
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`14· later.
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`15· · · · Q· ·So are you not relying the signal that's
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`16· generated by sensing device 124 to read on the claim
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`17· language in Claim 1 as the first and second gesture
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`18· signals?
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`19· · · · A· ·I think that's not what I said.· Let me
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`20· re-quote.· "A person of ordinary skill would
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`21· understand that the sensing device generates a first
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`22· gesture signal representing one of the two fingers on
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`23· the touchscreen, and a second gesture signal
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`24· representing the other finger on the touchscreen."
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`25· · · · · · I was simply adding that later on, the
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`·1· processor may repackage the signal to a different
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`·2· digital representation.
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`·3· · · · Q· ·The plain language of your declaration
`
`·4· doesn't talk about pre-packaging or further
`
`·5· processing, does it not?
`
`·6· · · · A· ·When you just made me read this paragraph
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`·7· from the Burrough application, I felt it useful to
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`·8· further explain the processing described in this
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`·9· paragraph.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·So you're changing your opinion that the
`
`11· gesture signal is not generated by the sensing device?
`
`12· It's going to be generated by the processor?
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`13· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`14· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`15· · · · Q· ·Is that not -- is that correct?· Clearly in
`
`16· 62 you're saying that the sensing device generates the
`
`17· first and second gesture signal.
`
`18· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`19· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`20· · · · Q· ·Correct?· Isn't that what it says in 62?
`
`21· · · · A· ·And I absolutely see it that way still.· All
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`22· I said was in the later processing stages -- because
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`23· you pointed me to this paragraph -- that the signal
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`24· would be reshaped and reformed.· I did not contradict
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`25· the fact that it's generated by the sensing
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`·1· device 124.
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`·2· · · · Q· ·So sensing device 124 generates a gesture
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`·3· signal; is that correct?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·124 certainly generates the first version of
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`·5· that gesture signal.· We could say -- I'll be happy to
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`·6· use your language, 124 generates the gesture signal.
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`·7· · · · Q· ·Do you identify any other gesture signals
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`·8· other than emanating from sensing device 124 in
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`·9· paragraphs 57 through 62 of your declaration?
`
`10· · · · A· ·In paragraphs 57 through 62 in my
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`11· declaration, all gesture signals I'm referring to
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`12· originate from that sensor.· Or from those sensors, I
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`13· guess.
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`14· · · · · · MR. FLEMING:· I think we should take a break
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`15· because I have a long line of questioning, and it is
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`16· ten.
`
`17· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· All right.· Let's do it.
`
`18· · · · · · (A recess was taken.)
`
`19· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`20· · · · Q· ·Does a single XY point have a direction?
`
`21· · · · A· ·That's very hard to answer in the abstract.
`
`22· I can certainly think of situations in which it has
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`23· direction, namely if X and Y are considered a vector
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`24· from the origin.· But something makes me think you're
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`25· thinking of a much more concrete example here.
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`·1· · · · Q· ·I said a point, not a vector.
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`·2· · · · A· ·I think you asked me if it's a vector.
`
`·3· · · · Q· ·No.· I asked you if an XY coordinate point
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`·4· provides a direction.
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`·5· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`·6· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`·7· · · · Q· ·Is that correct?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·It looked like you said if X and Y are
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`·9· considered a vector from the -- oh, I'm sorry, that's
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`10· what I said.· Okay.· Now I'm getting confused.
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`11· · · · · · Let's make this more concrete.· What
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`12· particular point are we talking about?
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`13· · · · Q· ·I'm just asking a mathematical question.· An
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`14· XY coordinate point, does that provide direction?
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`15· Just yes or no.
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`16· · · · A· ·This is very broad in the hypothetical.· And
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`17· the -- in most situations, one would not consider this
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`18· a vector.· But there are situation where people use
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`19· coordinate pairs and they express as a vector --
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`20· · · · Q· ·You mentioned a coordinate pair.· Can you
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`21· define what a coordinate pair is?
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`22· · · · A· ·You mentioned X and Y.· That could be
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`23· considered a coordinate pair.
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`24· · · · Q· ·So it's your opinion a single point that's
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`25· defined by a coordinate X and Y determines direction;
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`·1· is that correct?
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`·2· · · · A· ·I'm not saying that.· I'm saying that in
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`·3· some selected situations, given you did not further
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`·4· constrain the situation we're talking about, a point
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`·5· can specify a vector.· But in the general case, I
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`·6· think it will not.
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`·7· · · · Q· ·Can you explain to me when a single point
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`·8· would be a -- give direction?
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`·9· · · · A· ·Since you asked me very broadly in the
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`10· context of mathematics, I just gave you an example,
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`11· which is in spaces where the origin is explicitly
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`12· considered the other point from which the vector is
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`13· drawn.
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`14· · · · Q· ·Then that's relying on another point?
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`15· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`16· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`17· · · · Q· ·Is that not correct?
`
`18· · · · A· ·If in my mathematical model it's always
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`19· stated that the vector starts at the origin, then the
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`20· information would be completely contained in the XY
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`21· coordinate pair given to me.
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`22· · · · · · My sense is that we're probably -- would get
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`23· further with this if you put this back into the
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`24· framework of the Burrough patent for me.
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`25· · · · Q· ·I just want to make clear, though.· If your
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`·1· only information is a coordinate that represents
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`·2· space, which is X and Y -- that's your only
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`·3· information -- does that convey direction?· Correct or
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`·4· not correct?
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`·5· · · · A· ·This really depends on the interpretation of
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`·6· the data.· Without further information, I really
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`·7· couldn't say because I can construct cases in which
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`·8· that would indeed convey direction.· But I actually
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`·9· agree with you very much than in most interpretations,
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`10· a single point would not convey direction.
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`11· · · · Q· ·So we have two single points, one with X1,
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`12· the other is Y1, representing space.· And we have
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`13· another point, X2, Y2, points in space.· And that's
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`14· the information that we have.
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`15· · · · · · Can you determine whether those two points
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`16· are moving together or moving away?
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`17· · · · A· ·Well, in particular, if I would assume that
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`18· these were taken at the same time, then I obviously --
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`19· this example does not give me any time dimension
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`20· whatsoever.· So I could not make any conclusions about
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`21· movement in time, I guess.
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`22· · · · Q· ·If we turn to Burroughs and look at
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`23· paragraph 44.· And if you could read just the first
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`24· two sentences.
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`25· · · · A· ·So reading from Burrough paragraph 44,
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`·1· "Touch sensing device 124 can be sensitive to at least
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`·2· one or several independent and spatially distinct
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`·3· touch sensing nodes or regions."
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`·4· · · · · · 128, "Touch sensing device 124 can position
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`·5· throughout touch sensing layer outside layer 122."
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`·6· · · · Q· ·And if you could skip down to the next
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`·7· sentence, starting with "sensing region 28."· Can you
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`·8· read that sentence to me?
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`·9· · · · A· ·So I'm skipping "touch sensing device 124
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`10· can be positioned throughout" -- okay.
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`11· · · · · · "Sensing regions 128 are typically not
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`12· visible to the user and dispersed about protective
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`13· layer 120, with each region 128 representing a
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`14· different position on surface 126 in coordination of
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`15· locations of sensing device 124."
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`16· · · · Q· ·And the next sentence, please?
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`17· · · · A· ·"Sensing regions 128 can be positioned in a
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`18· grid or other such array where each sensing region 128
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`19· can generate a signal in response to user touch event
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`20· in proximity thereto."
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`21· · · · Q· ·If we look at figure 1B.
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`22· · · · A· ·Uh-huh.
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`23· · · · Q· ·Do you agree that figure 1B shows sensing
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`24· signal S1 being generated by element 124?
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`25· · · · A· ·I agree.
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`·1· · · · Q· ·Do you agree that when you have a touch
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`·2· effect to 128, that causes sensing element 124 to
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`·3· generate S1?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·It looks like they're touching the
`
`·5· protective layer 120, including 128, that this would
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`·6· cause the sensor 124 to produce a gesture signal.
`
`·7· · · · Q· ·Do you agree that the paragraph you just
`
`·8· read earlier mentions that sensing element 124 is
`
`·9· arranged in a grid?
`
`10· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection.· Vague.
`
`11· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`12· · · · Q· ·Correct?
`
`13· · · · A· ·It says sensing regions can be positioned in
`
`14· a grid or other such array.· So it seems like that's a
`
`15· possibility.
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`16· · · · Q· ·And sensor 124, then, is a discrete element
`
`17· arranged in a grid?
`
`18· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`19· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, as I just pointed out,
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`20· it seems like the inventor is referring to these
`
`21· elements being evenly laid out in the grid or some
`
`22· other arrangement.
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`23· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`24· · · · Q· ·The teaching of a grid, though, would mean
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`25· that it would be arranged in discrete elements, right?
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`·1· · · · A· ·My impression is that the disclosure leaves
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`·2· this open.· I'm looking at page 4, paragraph 42.· It
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`·3· says, "Touch sensing layer 122 generally includes at
`
`·4· least one touch sensing device 124," which makes me
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`·5· think that one possibility is that there could be only
`
`·6· one touch sensing element, which then, in turn, would
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`·7· make me think this has a certain physical extent and
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`·8· some resolution to it, like a resistive sensor or
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`·9· something like this.
`
`10· · · · · · So it sounds like the inventor is giving us
`
`11· a lot of possibility to how to implement that sensing
`
`12· layer.
`
`13· · · · Q· ·Doctor, I just asked, though, is the
`
`14· teaching of a grid, would that not convey to you that
`
`15· that means that there's discrete elements of 128
`
`16· spread on that grid?
`
`17· · · · A· ·If there's a grid but the -- well, we also
`
`18· learn that the grid may be made of --
`
`19· · · · Q· ·Can you just answer my one question?· The
`
`20· question is, does a grid convey to you that there
`
`21· would be discrete elements of 124 at intersections of
`
`22· the grid?
`
`23· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection.· Vague.
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`24· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sounds like we're talking
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`25· about a very specific case, which is one where we have
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`·1· multiple of these, not one, and where these are laid
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`·2· out in a grid.· And in that particular case, I would
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`·3· assume that these sensor elements would not be
`
`·4· discrete.· But we need to consider that there are
`
`·5· other options.
`
`·6· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`·7· · · · Q· ·So if you agree that it is the
`
`·8· implementation of a grid --
`
`·9· · · · A· ·I'm not sure I did.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·I thought I just heard you say that the
`
`11· teaching of a grid would convey to you that there
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`12· would be discrete elements of 124 placed on the
`
`13· intersection of a grid.
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`14· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection.
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`15· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`16· · · · Q· ·Is that not correct?
`
`17· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· To the extent it
`
`18· mischaracterizes prior testimony.
`
`19· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I said that's one of several
`
`20· possible embodiments.
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`21· BY MR. FLEMING:
`
`22· · · · Q· ·So that's one embodiment in your mind?
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`23· · · · A· ·I'd say so.
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`24· · · · Q· ·And then the grid teaching -- if we can
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`25· refer to it that way -- then the sensor of 124 is
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`·1· providing an XY coordinate?
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`·2· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`·3· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· My sense is that the
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`·4· disclosure is broader than this.· So I'm again looking
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`·5· at page 4, paragraph 42.· And the inventor is
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`·6· unpacking for us possible embodiments of the touch
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`·7· sensing layer 122.· And he writes, "can be configured
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`·8· to detect an object in close proximity to one" -- "to
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`·9· or exerting pressure on an upper surface of protective
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`10· layer."
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`11· · · · · · So it sounds like pressure is an option.
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`12· · · · · · "In keeping with the wide applicability of
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`13· the invention, sensing device 124 can be configured to
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`14· activate as the finger touches the upper surface.· In
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`15· the simplest case, an electronic signal is produced
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`16· each time a finger or other appropriate object passes
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`17· a sensor.
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`18· · · · · · "The number of signals in a given time frame
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`19· may indicate location, direction, speed, and
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`20· acceleration of the finger on the touch-sensitive
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`21· portion (the more signals, the more the user moves
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`22· finger)."
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`23· · · · · · So sounds like depending on the embodiment,
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`24· a lot of things can come out of these sensors.
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`25
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`·1· BY MR. FLEMING:
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`·2· · · · Q· ·So is it your opinion that the sensor 124
`
`·3· provides all the -- provides location, direction,
`
`·4· speed, acceleration of the figure -- of the finger,
`
`·5· sorry?
`
`·6· · · · A· ·I don't think the inventor says that. I
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`·7· think the virtual says the number of signals in a
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`·8· given time frame may indicate location, direction,
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`·9· speed, and acceleration of the finger.
`
`10· · · · · · So I think the inventor leaves this largely
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`11· open what exactly comes out of that sensor.· But some
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`12· useful subset of these.
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`13· · · · Q· ·Just so that I understand, the signal coming
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`14· out of sensor 124, are you saying that it would
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`15· provide location, direction, speed, and acceleration?
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`16· · · · A· ·What I'm saying is that the inventor seems
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`17· to be -- seems to leave us with several possibilities
`
`18· here.
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`19· · · · · · But if you would like to talk about the case
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`20· of a sensor that produces an XY pair, we can certainly
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`21· talk about that case because I think that's certainly
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`22· a possibility here.· I just want to point out that
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`23· there appears to be more alternatives in terms of
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`24· embodiment.
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`25· · · · Q· ·So for it to be able to provide
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`·1· acceleration, for instance, then it would require a
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`·2· processor, would it not?· And to make it clear, I'm
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`·3· talking about element 124 would require it to be a
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`·4· processor to provide acceleration.
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`·5· · · · A· ·I haven't analyzed this particular passage
`
`·6· because it didn't seem necessary at the time to form
`
`·7· an opinion.
`
`·8· · · · · · If you want to go on hypotheticals about how
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`·9· to build such systems, I'll be very happy to entertain
`
`10· that with you.· So I can certainly think of sensors
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`11· that would measure acceleration without a processor.
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`12· · · · Q· ·So your opinion is that 124 is going to be
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`13· reading out acceleration?
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`14· · · · · · MR. PANNO:· Objection to form.
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`15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's not
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